Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Shadowjack on <02-17-13/0139:06>

Title: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Shadowjack on <02-17-13/0139:06>
How do you guys feel about them? They seem pretty damn powerful and essence friendly for the cost. I have mixed feelings, they're great for making a character more survivable but they're so good that I wonder why you wouldn't want to get one on almost any character. I don't take them every time just because I try to stay in the spirit of my character and also to keep things fresh. But I really wonder if they're balanced. They're especially useful to high armor characters as they usually get hit for stun damage, making their physical track less valuable. Tough as Nails, Cyber Limbs or a high Body all serve less purpose on a high armor character because of this fact. So it makes grabbing a Pain Editor a very obvious choice. And yes, I realize a high Body is still very useful regardless.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mara on <02-17-13/0314:53>
Because you do not know how hurt you are, mostly.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mantis on <02-17-13/0317:28>
I'll second that. Not knowing how baddly you are hurt is not a good thing.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-17-13/0402:11>
Biomonitors come in external, cyber, nano, biofabrics, and urban explorer jumpsuit versions. Pretty useful for keeping track of your health - and any surreptitious changes in body chemistry, even if you do possess full faculties.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Shadowjack on <02-17-13/0424:01>
Biomonitors come in external, cyber, nano, biofabrics, and urban explorer jumpsuit versions. Pretty useful for keeping track of your health - and any surreptitious changes in body chemistry, even if you do possess full faculties.

Exactly. They also allow magicians to over cast and make up for some lost Magic power. The only downside is they can affect your initiative negatively although since it doesn't say that it requires a specific action to toggle the Pain Editor on or off I would think that most people don't let it affect your initiative during the first pass. It does make it easier for people to sneak up on your during combat though.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Helping Bear on <02-17-13/0427:12>
Pain Editor is perhaps the strongest piece of ware in the game. I find that you often just take stun damage from all attacks because you have so much armor stacked, and so Pain Editors basically double your health, or more than double.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-17-13/0433:29>
There's also the choice of Genetic Infusion: Sideways, if you think you can get 5 or more hits on an Essence + Edge test.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Falconer on <02-17-13/0446:47>
Very strong... but very necessary for street sam types... who tend to end up unconscious despite their very large physical damage tracks... as all the small amounts of damage that sneak past their large amounts of armor accumulate to knock them out.

Not really an in-game problem to the players awareness of injuries either... just wear a biomonitor and play 'you' the video game with your own little health monitor avatar in the corner of your vision HUD..

Also it only stops the penalties from stun... physical damage still impairs...


Mages can get similar functionality from the 'awaken' spell... to stop stun damage from knocking them out... but they'll still get the injury penalties.   So ware to do the same thing isn't that much of a problem.   The bioware isn't much use to a mage who's overcasting despite the other posters comment because it doesn't help with physical drain problems... outside of a mere +1 more willpower to resist (offset by -1 intuition for those traidiotns... and the penalties to assensing/perception/astral attackers which all use intution).


The genetic infusion is the opposite of the mage spell... it only allows you to ignore the stun damage penalties but it still knocks you out when full.   So not nearly as valuable to the heavily armored among us.  (now that i'm thinking i forget if it let you ignore the knockout effect or the stun damage penalties... think it was the stun damage penalties).
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Shadowjack on <02-17-13/0454:01>
Not all traditions use Intuition to resist, however all do use Willpower. So it does help certain magicians. Doesn't it?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Aryeonos on <02-17-13/0528:18>
I've using it for my OMON NPC Pilots and Riggers as another layer of insurance on the MVD's part, no sense in loosing a 3'000'000 Ruble chopper because the pilot would have been unconscious. I've fiddled with combining it with the other damage compensation biowares but they seem almost incompatible or just unnecessary. The damage compensator and the Adrenaline Pump work with it, but then you've got a very very expensive hulk soldier that will most likely be prime target #1 and then you just lost another 300'000 Nuyen investment, his gear can be recycled of course though.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Ernie55 on <02-17-13/0727:33>
They are also highly illegal (18F) and quite expensive. In my opinion they should also come with a RP penalty, inability to feel pain should change how a person acts...
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-17-13/0755:45>
Biomonitors come in external, cyber, nano, biofabrics, and urban explorer jumpsuit versions. Pretty useful for keeping track of your health - and any surreptitious changes in body chemistry, even if you do possess full faculties.
Biomonitors can be hacked.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-17-13/0849:42>
Biomonitors can be hacked.

... Applies to anything wireless, and is a non-issue otherwise.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-17-13/1702:39>
Biomonitors can be hacked.

... Applies to anything wireless, and is a non-issue otherwise.
Yes, but when you're counting on one piece of gear to tell you whether you're almost dead or not, that's a big problem.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Ernie55 on <02-17-13/1709:12>
I have images of a sammy wading in to combat thinking all is well, and smug abouthow little bullets hurt these days, whilst some wiseguy hacker sits in the corner giggling.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-17-13/1713:35>
I have images of a sammy wading in to combat thinking all is well, and smug abouthow little bullets hurt these days, whilst some wiseguy hacker sits in the corner giggling.
Or, conversely, a fight is going badly for the hacker's side, so he makes the sammy think that last hit was a real bad one, to try and get him to withdraw or give them an opening to escape.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Aryeonos on <02-17-13/1740:39>
Either way it's going to take even more dedication to bring him down. He's still taking the damage, he just doesn't know it, or even if he does I doubt very much that he'd walk straight into gun fire. Just because you can't feel the bullets doesn't mean you suddenly forget that they hurt you.

And, how do you toggle a bioware?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-17-13/1828:06>
Yes, but when you're counting on one piece of gear to tell you whether you're almost dead or not, that's a big problem.
Only when you're dumb enough to use it in a way that broadcasts that information / leaves it open to public access.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: CanRay on <02-17-13/1833:22>
Yes, but when you're counting on one piece of gear to tell you whether you're almost dead or not, that's a big problem.
Why not?  We have that in real life (although it's not wireless) and it did the exact opposite of warning me that I was close to death when I shattered my elbow.

Good thing I recognized the signs of shock and knew how to deal with it.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-17-13/1907:51>
Yes, but when you're counting on one piece of gear to tell you whether you're almost dead or not, that's a big problem.
Only when you're dumb enough to use it in a way that broadcasts that information / leaves it open to public access.
Again, if it is connected to the PAN, anyone hacking your PAN will be able to see it on the list of subscribed devices, and get into it from there. 99% of the time someone hacks your cyberware, they're going in through your PAN, because no one wants to stand within 3m of an angry sammy.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: KarmaInferno on <02-18-13/0017:38>
That falls under "I left my PAN open to attack".

Smart runners don't. There are, in fact, ways to have a PAN immune to wireless attack.


-k
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0112:18>
That falls under "I left my PAN open to attack".

Smart runners don't. There are, in fact, ways to have a PAN immune to wireless attack.


-k

Just not good ones.  Having to go under the knife every time you need to do a firmware update and so on is not a great plan, especially if you don't have a Loyalty 5+ Street Doc who does cyber work.  Or if you want to be able to use a Tacnet.  And on and on.

Shutting off all wireless has its downsides, and there are some very strong hacking defenses that don't depend on doing so.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-18-13/0114:53>
Encrypt rating 6 with Optimization (whatever rating is needed) and Ergonomic along with enough Electronic Warfare with a specialty in Encryption to justify having Strong Encryption with a 6 hour interval.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mara on <02-18-13/0118:17>
Encrypt rating 6 with Optimization (whatever rating is needed) and Ergonomic along with enough Electronic Warfare with a specialty in Encryption to justify having Strong Encryption with a 6 hour interval.

Don't forget putting Black IC on your PAN.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0119:08>
Or make friends with the hacker.  Or run a centralized tacnet through the technomancer, who has a registered sprite pull Assist Operation on the encryption; has the benefit of being unhackable by any mundane and damned hard to spoof.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-18-13/0119:45>
Encrypt rating 6 with Optimization (whatever rating is needed) and Ergonomic along with enough Electronic Warfare with a specialty in Encryption to justify having Strong Encryption with a 6 hour interval.

Don't forget putting Black IC on your PAN.

Meh, with that interval, you'll notice something before they get in, and if it's a combat situation, they're dead before they finish the first interval.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0122:19>
Encrypt rating 6 with Optimization (whatever rating is needed) and Ergonomic along with enough Electronic Warfare with a specialty in Encryption to justify having Strong Encryption with a 6 hour interval.

Don't forget putting Black IC on your PAN.

Meh, with that interval, you'll notice something before they get in, and if it's a combat situation, they're dead before they finish the first interval.

With that interval, you've probably switched the slaving by the time one's done, assuming you have a work link and a dummy link.  At which point, you re-encrypt and they have to start all over.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-18-13/0132:25>
So although there are ways to hack a Biomonitor via PAN, essentially if you put the correct counters (such as using a Hacker friend, Encryption, Black IC, etc.) hacking it becomes incredibly hard. Unless you face Professional Rating 5 or 6 Hackers regularly. Who hack you vs. the rest of the team. Because the GM knows you are the Sammie with Pain Editor. Because Pain Editor is BA  with a Biomonitor.

Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues. Tie it to PAN and be smart with defenses. If you are always the guy targeted by a Hacker either A) you need to tone down the I AM THE SAMMIE aspect of your character or B) the GM is screwing you.

I say this BTW even though like 90% of the time I am the GM. Variables exist such as an unscrupulous Street Doc that sells the info on your Pain Editir to the enemy, forcing the enemy to specifically target the Sammie.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0209:35>
Quote
Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues.

Not really. Security personnel, for instance, only enable wireless for updating when in secure facilities.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0211:38>
Quote
Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues.

Not really. Security personnel, for instance, only enable wireless for updating when in secure facilities.

Which means its connected to something that they can turn the wireless on through.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-18-13/0216:21>
Quote
Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues.

Not really. Security personnel, for instance, only enable wireless for updating when in secure facilities.

Which means its connected to something that they can turn the wireless on through.

Manual switch located in the arm-pit, maybe?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0226:19>
More likely commlink through a datajack.  Have to be able to control it, after all.  At that point, though, odds are strong that it's set to reactivate wireless if that connection is lost - don't want the skillwires to kill the paramedics in a medical emergency, after all.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-18-13/0227:41>
More likely commlink through a datajack.  Have to be able to control it, after all.  At that point, though, odds are strong that it's set to reactivate wireless if that connection is lost - don't want the skillwires to kill the paramedics in a medical emergency, after all.

Either works.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0230:54>
Armpit switch (or any body switch, really) is probably too vulnerable to being triggered through normal movement.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0245:43>
I think you're getting a bit too caught up in being the opposition there.

Quote
... can be activated or deactivated ... by simultaneously pressing two separated buttons, making it possible to release the weapon from its surface even without an active PAN but efficiently preventing its abuse in combat.
It's entirely possible to create accident-proof manual switches.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0253:44>
I think you're getting a bit too caught up in being the opposition there.

Quote
... can be activated or deactivated ... by simultaneously pressing two separated buttons, making it possible to release the weapon from its surface even without an active PAN but efficiently preventing its abuse in combat.
It's entirely possible to create accident-proof manual switches.

Accident-resistant, at least - but when we're talking about it being on the body, that's far from accident proof.

Vulnerability to hacker nanites is a concern, too - it's a little foolish to make shutting down wireless your sole defense when those exist.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0300:18>
There's still an answer for everything possible to bring up.

Case in point; blue goo.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-18-13/0308:59>
Vulnerability to hacker nanites is a concern, too - it's a little foolish to make shutting down wireless your sole defense when those exist.

Hopefully, those will be "retconed" out of existence when the new edition comes. Those are just ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0309:44>
Better hope the rating of the hunters is better than that of the hackers, than.  Which, assuming equal expenditure, it won't be unless that's the only thing your blue goo protects from.

Vulnerability to hacker nanites is a concern, too - it's a little foolish to make shutting down wireless your sole defense when those exist.

Hopefully, those will be "retconed" out of existence when the new edition comes. Those are just ridiculous.

As long as it gets harder/more disadvantageous to keep killing wireless, sure - it should pretty much be something only runners would do, and even than nowhere near all; only the intensly hacker-phobic should be doing so.  Cyberhacking is a bit of a balancing element, but more importantly it makes it easier for Matrix specialists to contribute to a fight on both offense and defense.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0326:33>
Vulnerability to hacker nanites is a concern, too - it's a little foolish to make shutting down wireless your sole defense when those exist.

Hopefully, those will be "retconed" out of existence when the new edition comes. Those are just ridiculous.

Quote
Nanite hunters (often called “blue goo”) seek out and destroy other active nanites.
Quote
immunizations treatment recognizes the most common hulls used for soft nanite technology. The immunization treatment conveys near immunity to all soft nanites, no matter their effect.
When you get to the point where your enemies are using weaponised nanotech against you, you either stay stupid or start using countermeasures.

All of which I consider covered by;
Only when you're dumb enough to use it in a way that broadcasts that information / leaves it open to public access.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0330:24>
At that stage, you also want your gear to be on a Tacnet.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-18-13/0453:36>
Quote
Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues.

Not really. Security personnel, for instance, only enable wireless for updating when in secure facilities.
Ugh. That only applies for hacking the cyberware directly. You can still get into it through the PAN even if the implant's wireless functionality is turned off so long as there is a DNI, which is what the overwhelming majority of hackers will do anyways, because when you are faced with a choice of hacking a node that operates a single implant or a node that is like the master control for several implants, plus has all the target's personal info (SINs, bank accounts, paydata, etc.), and can be hacked from further than 3m away, which one do you think the hacker will target? Unless you are on COMPLETE radio silence (no tacnet, no comms, NOTHING) your ware can be hacked.

Although, RHat is right that you can't just completely disable it due to update issues. Tie it to PAN and be smart with defenses. If you are always the guy targeted by a Hacker either A) you need to tone down the I AM THE SAMMIE aspect of your character or B) the GM is screwing you.
If you have obvious ware, then you might as well beg hackers to target you in particular. Note the 'obvious' part. Natural looking cybereyes, hidden behind glasses/goggles? Doesn't count. Wired reflexes? No. Skillwires? No. Cybereyes that glow purple? Eh, sure. Obvious cyberlimbs with the bulk modification? You're damn skippy it does.

Of course, anyone who walks around with heavy weapons is another prime candidate for getting hacked, so if you have the Panther slung over one shoulder and a grenade launcher on the other, then don't be surprised if people start hacking you. Same goes for the people carrying a Barrett 121. Carry the overtly nasty with you, and people are going to target you first, same as the mage who has glowing mystical designs running over his lined coat.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0601:25>
Quote
You can still get into it through the PAN even if...
I use a commlink skinlinked to a subvocal mic and imagelinked contacts for wifi connections / communications, none of which is (or needs to be) connected to the rest of my equipment. Again: only if you're stupid about it.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/0612:09>
Quote
You can still get into it through the PAN even if...
I use a commlink skinlinked to a subvocal mic and imagelinked contacts for wifi connections / communications, none of which is (or needs to be) connected to the rest of my equipment. Again: only if you're stupid about it.

And thus, no Tacnet.  No monitoring of gear condition though the contacts - and if you wire into a pair of goggles for that, the cable will be vulnerable to damage.  And so on, and so forth.  These is no cost-free option.  And given how easy it is to get very, very, very strong defenses against hacking without needing to do that...  Its not actually the smartest option.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-18-13/0612:19>
Right Mirikon. My current character (that I never get to play because again, I'm usually GM) is a mercenary/Bodyguard who, just by looking, looks mundane Human. Muscle Toner 4, Muscle Aug 2, Synaptic Booster 1, Sleep Regulator, and generally uses pistols or an Ares Executive SMG in a city. Why the heck would a Hacker target him first?

They wouldn't and they don't.

I am getting Pain Editors ASAP on him BTW. Can you tell I love Bioware?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Novocrane on <02-18-13/0633:31>
Apparently it's not enough for some people to leave things at "there's an answer for every issue that could be brought up". FWIW, I don't regularly play in games where tacnets offer dp bonuses to the full list given in Unwired. If I do, that's going to be an entirely separate discussion.

Quote
No monitoring of gear condition though the contacts - and if you wire into a pair of goggles for that, the cable will be vulnerable to damage.  And so on, and so forth.  These is no cost-free option.  And given how easy it is to get very, very, very strong defenses against hacking without needing to do that...  Its not actually the smartest option.
Quote
If the character also possesses a cyberware smartlink system, [a cyber safety] links to it and the direct contact overrides any wireless smartlink input, essentially making the smartlink immune from hacking.

Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: KarmaInferno on <02-18-13/1005:56>
Channelling Old Man Jones here for a moment:

One PAN for your gear that does not absolutely need to have wireless access. All wireless links REMOVED, not just shut off. Datajack for those times you need to connect it to an outside system.

Seperate PAN for your communications gear. TacNet goes here, as well as anything else that needs outside connections. Ideally all bundled into an easily disposed of package in case the PAN is compromised. No connection to the first PAN. If you need to transfer data from PAN "A" to PAN "B", use a damn memory chip.

Backup duplicates of the wireless PAN. Additional burner commlinks for use-and-dispose situations.

There's no such thing as "too paranoid" in the shadows, only "not paranoid enough".

More on topic, there is NO good reason for your bioware or personal biomonitor to be connected to wireless. If your team medic needs the info, wear a second biomonitor on your wireless PAN.


-k
Yes, Jones does have the Paranoia negative quality, why do you ask? :)
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-18-13/1023:04>
Channelling Old Man Jones here for a moment:

One PAN for your gear that does not absolutely need to have wireless access. All wireless links REMOVED, not just shut off. Datajack for those times you need to connect it to an outside system.

Seperate PAN for your communications gear. TacNet goes here, as well as anything else that needs outside connections. Ideally all bundled into an easily disposed of package in case the PAN is compromised. No connection to the first PAN. If you need to transfer data from PAN "A" to PAN "B", use a damn memory chip.

Backup duplicates of the wireless PAN. Additional burner commlinks for use-and-dispose situations.

There's no such thing as "too paranoid" in the shadows, only "not paranoid enough".

More on topic, there is NO good reason for your bioware or personal biomonitor to be connected to wireless. If your team medic needs the info, wear a second biomonitor on your wireless PAN.

This. Absolutely.

And remember, Runners, I don't have to be unhackable.

I just have to be less attractive to hack than you.  ;D

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-18-13/1429:20>
Which is why my gunsmith character loads heavy encryption plus some fun black IC.  I don't need to keep them out, just keep them busy long enough for my team to locate and destroy the hacker.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: CanRay on <02-18-13/1735:26>
Which is why my gunsmith character loads heavy encryption plus some fun black IC.  I don't need to keep them out, just keep them busy long enough for my team to locate and destroy the hacker.
You should see some of the perversions of defense some of my group is planning.  Of course, they have a business they're trying to run and keep safe, so...
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-18-13/1911:05>
Channelling Old Man Jones here for a moment:

One PAN for your gear that does not absolutely need to have wireless access. All wireless links REMOVED, not just shut off. Datajack for those times you need to connect it to an outside system.

Seperate PAN for your communications gear. TacNet goes here, as well as anything else that needs outside connections. Ideally all bundled into an easily disposed of package in case the PAN is compromised. No connection to the first PAN. If you need to transfer data from PAN "A" to PAN "B", use a damn memory chip.

Backup duplicates of the wireless PAN. Additional burner commlinks for use-and-dispose situations.

There's no such thing as "too paranoid" in the shadows, only "not paranoid enough".

More on topic, there is NO good reason for your bioware or personal biomonitor to be connected to wireless. If your team medic needs the info, wear a second biomonitor on your wireless PAN.


-k
Yes, Jones does have the Paranoia negative quality, why do you ask? :)

And this is why I'm glad they're doing away with all this bullshit in 5th.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-18-13/2044:28>
What makes you say that?  Haven't seen anything to suggest that...  It's not like PANs are incompatible with grids...
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-18-13/2235:18>

I kinda like PANs.

Then again, I own a lot of Scottevest gear... :P

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1110:46>
What makes you say that?  Haven't seen anything to suggest that...  It's not like PANs are incompatible with grids...

All that pussyfooting? Needs to go. If your plan to not get shot and killed requires more then a single sentence, it's a shitty plan. If your plan to not get hacked requires more then a single sentence, you're just jerking off.  I don't think Karma is being an asshole here, I think the rules are just fucking stupid, and since the Matrix itself and wireless nonsense seems to be going, it's a good assumption that PANs are out too.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-19-13/1115:28>
What makes you say that?  Haven't seen anything to suggest that...  It's not like PANs are incompatible with grids...

All that pussyfooting? Needs to go. If your plan to not get shot and killed requires more then a single sentence, it's a shitty plan. If your plan to not get hacked requires more then a single sentence, you're just jerking off.  I don't think Karma is being an asshole here, I think the rules are just fucking stupid, and since the Matrix itself and wireless nonsense seems to be going, it's a good assumption that PANs are out too.

If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1118:40>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-19-13/1209:14>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.

Not familiar with the 7 Ps, then,  I take it?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-19-13/1240:44>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.

Obviously, you have never planned a real operation then. "A plan never survives first contact" is true. That being said, if you went in front of any military officer with a one sentence plan, they would ask for Mirikon's phone book.

I don't mean to be condescending, but you must be joking that you only make one sentence plans, right?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1241:19>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.

Not familiar with the 7 Ps, then,  I take it?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

The last guy got shot while trying to recite them. Guess he should have just shot first.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1242:52>
Obviously, you have never planned a real operation then.

Really dude?

How many military operations officers do --- Edit.  Nevermind. Not fucking worth it.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-19-13/1244:41>
Well, here is one right here. Former analyst in a Brigade level S2 and S3. (In reference to the now edited statement of how many military operations officers are there on these forums.)

Back to Biomonitors and synergy with Pain Editors. It is a great idea and works almost to perfection in game. A combo every Sammie should look into.

Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-19-13/1619:17>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.
*facepalm* Seriously? Then you, sir, are a moron. Yes, the ability to adapt to changing conditions on the ground is important, but planning and preparation is essential for controlling variables and doing your utmost to keep things from spiraling out of control. Actually, there's a guy in Street Legends Supplemental that is a lot like you. His name is Street Rage. Straight suicide missions all the way, and gets his whole team killed on a couple occasions. That kind of attitude sums up the quintessential "idiot muscle".

Obviously, you have never planned a real operation then. "A plan never survives first contact" is true. That being said, if you went in front of any military officer with a one sentence plan, they would ask for Mirikon's phone book.
It gives me warm fuzzies to have started my own meme.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-19-13/1620:33>
What makes you say that?  Haven't seen anything to suggest that...  It's not like PANs are incompatible with grids...

All that pussyfooting? Needs to go. If your plan to not get shot and killed requires more then a single sentence, it's a shitty plan. If your plan to not get hacked requires more then a single sentence, you're just jerking off.  I don't think Karma is being an asshole here, I think the rules are just fucking stupid, and since the Matrix itself and wireless nonsense seems to be going, it's a good assumption that PANs are out too.

There's absolutely no indication of any of that.

And as to the rest, well, I must at this point acknowledge your signature.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1658:13>
There's absolutely no indication of any of that.

You're of course allowed to ignore clues, and can refuse to make assumptions. That's fine. Just don't get pissy when you're wrong.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-19-13/1659:34>
There's absolutely no indication of any of that.

You're of course allowed to ignore clues, and can refuse to make assumptions. That's fine. Just don't get pissy when you're wrong.

Uh-huh.  You could, of course, answer the question I asked: what makes you think that.

But you won't, because you have no basis.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-19-13/1702:20>
There's absolutely no indication of any of that.

You're of course allowed to ignore clues, and can refuse to make assumptions. That's fine. Just don't get pissy when you're wrong.

Uh-huh.  You could, of course, answer the question I asked: what makes you think that.

But you won't, because you have no basis.

Your last post contained no questions, and I've already responded to your earlier one.

You could be less of a condescending asshole during a conversation, but you won't, because you're under the delusion that attitude equals substance.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-19-13/1718:08>
There's absolutely no indication of any of that.

You're of course allowed to ignore clues, and can refuse to make assumptions. That's fine. Just don't get pissy when you're wrong.

Uh-huh.  You could, of course, answer the question I asked: what makes you think that.

But you won't, because you have no basis.

Your last post contained no questions, and I've already responded to your earlier one.

You could be less of a condescending asshole during a conversation, but you won't, because you're under the delusion that attitude equals substance.

You did not, in fact, answer my earlier question, because you did not state specifically what led you to your conclusions.  By refusing to do so, well, you leave the field of possible conclusions I can draw rather narrow.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-19-13/1847:30>
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/The_Gun_Nut/trolls-einstein1_zpscab24e54.png)

'nuff said.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-19-13/1849:26>
Ok, let's not lock this thread by trying to debate a non-debatable issue.

Pain Editors?
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: EternalZiggurat on <02-19-13/2118:35>
If your plan to not get shot and killed is only a single sentence, I never wanna go through a door with you.

I kill them first.  Complicated plans are just asking for failure or fiat.

Not familiar with the 7 Ps, then,  I take
offtopic, what are those? On topics, should pain editors be allowed to be compatible with trauma dampeners? Seems like they would summerhouse well, maybe. Maybe broken.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Prodigy on <02-19-13/2133:55>
Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. There are other variations but this is the one I know.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: RHat on <02-19-13/2134:16>
They are explicitly not compatible.  If your pain editor is activated, your trauma damper ceases working.

There's a certain synergy in the fact that you can start ignoring the stun if it builds too high, though.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: KarmaInferno on <02-20-13/0028:35>
I started my post out with "channelling Old Man Jones" because he's a hyper paranoid character of mine who has plans in place for every damn contingency you might imagine, and quite a few you can't imagine. He's been that way since I created him for 1st Edition, and 4th edition has only made him more so.

I have, in fact, used the line in game, "I dislike the term 'Plan B'. It implies I only have 26 of them."*

That said, my other characters aren't so extreme in that regard, but yes, the wireless rules are a little silly. Enough that the best way to deal with wireless security is to not use wireless.

As for Pain Editors, I rarely use them. I just don't like the idea of shutting off the body's damage monitor.


-k

* - Also spoken in game, "Yes, I do have a plan in case a dragon randomly shows up. Why?"
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Mirikon on <02-20-13/0112:36>
Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. There are other variations but this is the one I know.
Indeed. No plan survives first contact with the enemy wholly intact, but proper planning (which includes contingency plans for everything from a guard being out of position to things going completely FUBAR) is the difference between being a professional criminal, and a guy who charges headlong into machine gun fire with the unreasonable belief that everything will work out somehow. In other words, life and death.

* - Also spoken in game, "Yes, I do have a plan in case a dragon randomly shows up. Why?"
My plan for these situations is as follows: "De-ass the area with a quickness." If the Johnson expresses displeasure that the run was scrubbed, send him pictures of the dragon.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-20-13/1131:49>
If your pain editor is activated, your trauma damper ceases working.

[citation needed]
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: EternalZiggurat on <02-20-13/1256:39>
Augmentation p 70

Trauma dampeners get messed up when pain editors say the body isn't hurt. Or something.

Sorry, i'm on my phone. Copy pasta is difficult.
Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-20-13/1322:58>
If your pain editor is activated, your trauma damper ceases working.

[citation needed]

Fine.

Quote from: Augmention Pg. 70
A trauma damper negates any dice pool modi ers an intimidator
may gain from in icting pain on the subject. Given the
feedback-driven nature of the trauma damper, it cannot function
properly when used in conjunction with an activated pain editor.

Title: Re: The Value of Pain Editors
Post by: Wildcard on <02-20-13/1336:42>
Thanks.