Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: firebug on <03-16-13/0848:18>
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It always pops up, and people love to weigh in on it, so I want to start a real discussion about it rather than having it derail another thread. Now, I'm new to these forums, and relatively new to Shadowrun, but I've noticed a lot of things people bring up when they complain about the Wireless Matrix being terrible. I'm hoping to give my two cents, and get some other people to say what they think. Before I get started, I want to say that I really like the wireless matrix, the PAN, and the concept of a hacker having such a wide area of influence.
One thing in particular that bothered me was someone who said wireless was badly designed, because the best way to protect yourself against it was to not use it at all. This, to me, is like saying "Combat rules were a mistake! The best way to avoid dieing is to not fight in the first place, what's up with that?" as if that means the system isn't thought out.
People talk about hacking cyberlimbs and other 'ware quite often... I admit, when I first read about it I was a bit freaked, so I don't blame them. But they seem to overestimate what it means a hacker could actually do. Yes, cybernetics that do have wireless functionality have only 3-meters of range. Yes, you can ignore this by hacking a PAN if they are slaved to it. However, this is where people seem to stop thinking things through. They bring up that you control your cyberlimbs via DNI, and then jump to "and thus you can hack their PAN and control them" which... Is wrong.
Even if you have an implanted commlink, you don't control your limbs with it. It's a Direct Neural Interface, meaning you control it with your brain. You can't spoof commands to say they're from someone's brain, you can't send commands to limbs from a commlink through someone's brain, and you certainly can't hack someone's brain. You do gain access to what is wirelessly given by those limbs, yes, but as Unwired states, this is often just an RFID chip filled with statistics and data on how well its running. Useless? Maybe not, but it's not direct override like some people think. Similarly, as many people stated, a physical switch that can only be used in a very deliberate manner is often installed. Realistically, there could be accidents that result in the buttons being pushed, but in my opinion, these fall under "deus ex machina" elements, that won't come up in game play unless attention is called directly to them and the GM wants to dramatically change the encounter. If you can control the implants without needing to have a commlink on you (clearly possible, as street samurai don't suddenly become vegetables when their 'link is turned off) then the commlink reasonably doesn't have such explicit control over them.
What you can do though, is interact (and fuck with) anything that could be interfaced with the runner's commlink. Things like cyberears and cybereyes may not be able to be turned off via the 'link (who would ever need to do that themselves?) but you can do things like disable a smartlink, layer images over their vision (laughing man, anyone?) or even play sound clips that you took with you into their node. Most other implants do not have any use to have their functions linked to commlink. Your best bet would be to instead look at how many implants they have, and which ones are currently active, in the case of things like Wired Reflexes. And as I stated before, they are controlled via DNI, with the runner's brain, not through any commlink, and thus you wouldn't be able to send commands to them.
What confuses me, though, is the example on page 102. "The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges (requiring a Hacking + Editing Test)." To accomplish this, you would need to either be plugged into their implant or datajack, as I said before, what you are capable of doing via limbs wireless connectivity is very little indeed. The situation is the same for using a cyberlimb to attack the wearer. Either plugged directly into the implant (and thus having full access to literally any function it is capable of) or into a datajack (which explicitly gives you access to anything connected via a DNI, which is the whole point of a datajack in the first place-- It's a modular DNI.)
Next is matrix security. All those things aside, if you still feel vulnerable, simply run an Encryption program, and maybe load an Agent who can continually run Analyze for you. You may have to plink a bit of money into it, but it's nothing unreasonable... The matrix, like combat and magic, is another layer of the game that everyone should be aware of and have at least basic defenses for. Now, as the books tell you, encryption won't keep anyone out permanently. But it -will- keep them from being able to do anything during a combat scenario. It takes 1 combat turn per roll to Decrypt, assuming you don't sit down for 5 minutes to change that. If you have a Rating 4 Encrypt program (very cheap, and System 4 'links aren't very costly) then they have to take at least 2 combat turns* to even interact with your node in any reasonable way. The best they can do is gain your Access ID and attempt to start Spoofing. All the while your Agent and Firewall is working against them. It might not stop them over the course of a few minutes, but in combat, it means you're pretty safe. That hacker is doing nothing else beyond trying to decrypt you, taking themselves out of the fight while you keep going. If you decided to take the time in the car ride over to the mission point to do a Strong Encryption, then mid-combat decryption is probably impossible. Even a 1-minute interval is still 20 rounds. One minute of fidgeting with your commlink.
*assuming the hacker is capable enough to get 4 successes each round.
One more thing to mention is skinlinks and the good old datajack+cable combination. They are both examples of non-wireless ways to send data. It's worth pointing out though, that they are still vulnerable. This is where I believe people became confused about what DNI means. A skinlink/fiberoptic cable can't be intercepted, and you can't send wireless commands to something that operates using those alone. However, this is where hacking someone's PAN -does- grant you access. A skinlinked smartgun and skinlinked Cybereyes might be impossible to intercept, stopping you from directly altering what a smartlink tells them, but it doesn't prevent you from using their commlink to issue commands to the gun (which it is important to specify here, is something that can be done with a commlink, unlike controlling a cyberlimb). They are far from ineffective, however. If you follow my suggestions about matrix security, then you turn them from a free-floating wireless device with low Firewall and no admin accounts to having to be accessed by one stronger, more easily protected, node.
None of it is fool-proof and none of it is 100% secure. It shouldn't be. That would be the equivalent of an invulnerable street samurai, or a magician who never felt the effects of drain. It needs to be possible to get through it, for both the sake of the enemies, and for the players when they go up against similarly defended opponents. It should be a challenge, which I believe it very much can be. From what I've seen of hackers' capabilities, their role in combat (aside from standard shoot and stay alive procedure) would be to try and spoof smartguns or disable imagelinks. Both effective support tactics that can throw a wrench in your enemy's ranks.
Now I want to hear from you guys, the more experienced in both the game and these discussions, to tell me what you think I may be misunderstanding. Try to keep your answers in a point-by-point structure. It makes it easier for people to respond to your questions or points with answers and counter-points when you do so. And remember, just because something can be worked around, doesn't mean it suddenly is useless. The goal isn't to make something impenetrable. If that happened, the hacker archetype would be horribly crippled. They already have it hard as is just trying to understand the rules. I'm certain I'm not correct about these things... If I was, I wouldn't have posted it here for a discussion. So please, enlighten me if you feel I'm misunderstanding some rules.
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While I agree on a lot of what you've just said, I think you've made a mistake about decryption: The hacker initiates Cryptanalalysis (a complex action), then the software does all the work and leaves the hacker free to continue functioning. Still going to take a while, but at least the hacker's not out of the fight while the decryption takes place.
Doesn't invalidate any of your other points.
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Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant. is is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer.
Obviously, not all implants require such interfaces. Some, such as dermal plating and bone-lacing, are passive augmentations and don’t do much but make you tougher or stronger. Implants that don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course.
This is the first paragraph of Augmentation's say on DNI & wireless functionality.
Any non-passive / DNI-linked implant means there's a computer on the other end, listening to your brain murmurs. This computer is commonly open for wireless updating, with a range of anywhere from 3m (cyberware), 100m (headware), or 4km (cyberlimbs) - but it doesn't have to be always open. Permanent disabling is an option, (however messy) as is using your DNI to turn wireless off temporarily. The latter is the option of choice for corp security; they only turn on for updates in wifi "clean" zones, where being hacked is not expected to be an issue.
You can't spoof commands to say they're from someone's brain, you can't send commands to limbs from a commlink through someone's brain, and you certainly can't hack someone's brain. You do gain access to what is wirelessly given by those limbs
Like other devices, cyberware can be manipulated within the limits of its programming and functionality.
If you get into the controlling computer of any given active cyberware, you can functionally take the brain out of the loop as the directing entity. Naturally, unless there is some method of spatial recognition, the limits of functionality are going to be constrained somewhat. Using a cyber arm to shoot other people when you only have a sense of touch would be a matter of luck. Shooting the arm's owner would not. If you have access to their smartlink feed, too ...
Things like cyberears and cybereyes may not be able to be turned off via the 'link (who would ever need to do that themselves?)
Clearly this level of functionality isn't for the every day user. It's for cyberdocs, maintenance technicians and the like. People who are going to do things that might cause excessive feedback, should your cyber still be turned on or at full capability.
Personally, I think node defence you couldn't refer to as "landscaping" (or maybe PANscaping?) - wireless disabling, skinlink, etc. should be something you roll into Advanced Lifestyle: Security. (Runner's Companion, p150 for a list) Essentially, that would mean everyone with a high or luxury lifestyle and alphaware (or better) cyber has access to IC and program suites at rating 4+ to detect / fry intruders, and generally ensure your DNI settings don't change unexpectedly. It won't do much against the uber stealth threading technomancer, but that's where you're either back to landscaping or suffering the consequences.
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The hacker initiates Cryptanalalysis (a complex action), then the software does all the work and leaves the hacker free to continue functioning.
Ah, you're completely right. I didn't realize I'd missed that part.
Novocrane, you made some really good points. I suppose the wireless connectivity of the 'ware would need to be connected to the main computer, so the software updates could be received.
If you get into the controlling computer of any given active cyberware, you can functionally take the brain out of the loop as the directing entity.
My question is though, if you've toggled the wireless off (via your DNI, as you said corp security does), doesn't that mean there's realistically no way for someone to access the 'ware's computer beyond using cables and the like?
Finally, I'm not so certain I agree with you about cyberdocs needing to turn off your eyes wirelessly. It's not that I don't think your point about feedback isn't valid, I just feel like it would be more likely that they would just ask the person they're operating on to do so for them, rather than asking them to essentially give them the password to their cybereyes. Or use some physical way to turn it off.
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My question is though, if you've toggled the wireless off (via your DNI, as you said corp security does), doesn't that mean there's realistically no way for someone to access the 'ware's computer beyond using cables and the like?
The ware's connected to more than just its own DNI. You'd have to kill the wireless of your entire PAN and run anything at all connected through any sequence to the ware in comeplete wireless isolation. For example, if your commlink is connected to the cyberarm for one reason or another, your commlink is now a way for a hacker to get into the cyberarm.
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My question is though, if you've toggled the wireless off (via your DNI, as you said corp security does), doesn't that mean there's realistically no way for someone to access the 'ware's computer beyond using cables and the like?
The ware's connected to more than just its own DNI. You'd have to kill the wireless of your entire PAN and run anything at all connected through any sequence to the ware in comeplete wireless isolation. For example, if your commlink is connected to the cyberarm for one reason or another, your commlink is now a way for a hacker to get into the cyberarm.
It's not connected to your commlink, though. All it's connected to, once you deactivate its superfluous (for the sake of anything but downtime) wireless functionality, is your brain. Your commlink doesn't send any signals to it, you're just moving it and controlling it as if it were your own arm. Even activating things like a cyberarm gyromount are just done through your DNI connection with it. If it has something like a scanner in it, though, then I would agree that you'd it to be part of your PAN in order to see the results of any scanning.
Other than the DNI and its own wireless function (which it is completely capable of functioning without, and doesn't even need to have it permanently disabled), what is it connected to?
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Finally, I'm not so certain I agree with you about cyberdocs needing to turn off your eyes wirelessly. It's not that I don't think your point about feedback isn't valid, I just feel like it would be more likely that they would just ask the person they're operating on to do so for them, rather than asking them to essentially give them the password to their cybereyes. Or use some physical way to turn it off.
I think it could go either way, but I'm not exactly knowledgeable in any related field, nor have I found anything insightful within the books.
Just a hypothetical, but I'd assume there are access grades, which leave most people stuck within "safe" limits of what their cyber can do. (or does your average wageslave get the option of redlining cyberlimbs?) This could include manufacturer-default admin clearance, generally used for diagnostics at various points before sale, which also becomes a kind of security option. Similar to mobile phones and modern cars. Runners would want to change their accounts / passwords, but it's only truly secure against honest people in the 2070s.
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My question is though, if you've toggled the wireless off (via your DNI, as you said corp security does), doesn't that mean there's realistically no way for someone to access the 'ware's computer beyond using cables and the like?
The ware's connected to more than just its own DNI. You'd have to kill the wireless of your entire PAN and run anything at all connected through any sequence to the ware in comeplete wireless isolation. For example, if your commlink is connected to the cyberarm for one reason or another, your commlink is now a way for a hacker to get into the cyberarm.
It's not connected to your commlink, though. All it's connected to, once you deactivate its superfluous (for the sake of anything but downtime) wireless functionality, is your brain. Your commlink doesn't send any signals to it, you're just moving it and controlling it as if it were your own arm. Even activating things like a cyberarm gyromount are just done through your DNI connection with it. If it has something like a scanner in it, though, then I would agree that you'd it to be part of your PAN in order to see the results of any scanning.
Other than the DNI and its own wireless function (which it is completely capable of functioning without, and doesn't even need to have it permanently disabled), what is it connected to?
Sure, if you don't want to be able to get status on anything in it, or feed it's data anywhere, or have any sort of functionality in relation to another device, or to have the option to wire your smartgun to the arm, and so on (see also: cyberguns and smartlinks). There's a lot of cause to have it connected to your 'link, or a number of other devices. That said, cyberlimbs are often the least likely candidate for a cyberhack - internal stuff is often easier to get at, oddly enough.
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or to have the option to wire your smartgun to the arm, and so on (see also: cyberguns and smartlinks)
Thats what Skinlink's for ;)
Cyberware did function for 50 Years without WiFi ! There's no Reason why it shouldn't work now properly without
Cyberdocs were able to Repair 'ware for the last 40,50 Years without resorting to WiFi !
Hogh
Medicineman
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Sure, if you don't want to be able to get status on anything in it, or feed it's data anywhere, or have any sort of functionality in relation to another device, or to have the option to wire your smartgun to the arm, and so on (see also: cyberguns and smartlinks). There's a lot of cause to have it connected to your 'link, or a number of other devices. That said, cyberlimbs are often the least likely candidate for a cyberhack - internal stuff is often easier to get at, oddly enough.
You don't need status on it, or to feed its data to anywhere but your brain, and what functionality with other devices do you have a reference to? I don't know what you mean by wiring your smartgun to your arm. You mean plugging it in via fiberoptic cable? That's not wireless, and it's another secure way to command the gun. Though, there would be no reason to plug it into your arm instead of just a normal datajack... Having a cybergun with a smartlink though, yes, that definitely would leave you vulnerable, as you'd need it to be wireless to communicate with whatever is showing you the smartgun system.
I don't mean to sound picky, but I'd really appreciate if you could give a specific example of what kind of internal cyberware you'd need to have a wireless signal with in order to use. I can't think of one off the top of my head that would need to be connected to your commlink for any reason unless it is some kind of radar, in which case it would probably be inactive and disabled until you're using it.
or to have the option to wire your smartgun to the arm, and so on (see also: cyberguns and smartlinks)
Thats what Skinlink's for ;)
Cyberware did function for 50 Years without WiFi ! There's no Reason why it shouldn't work now properly without
Cyberdocs were able to Repair 'ware for the last 40,50 Years without resorting to WiFi !
Hogh
Medicineman
That's also a good point.
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I'll also point out that Unwired notes the DNI as a link between multiple devices. Meaning that if, say, you have a DNI to your commlink too, that's quite possibly a way of getting at any exclusively-DNI ware.
As for that smartgun: Wire to datajack, with the feed being sent to the smartlink (which has nothing to do with your arm, so obviously that's an outside connection).
And to be specific, I'm talking about inter-device connections, wireless or otherwise. If the device in question is connecting through any number of steps to a wireless device, that makes it vulnerable to wireless hacking. In order to be considered isolated from other devices, the ware would have to lack wireless and DNI functionality.
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I'll also point out that Unwired notes the DNI as a link between multiple devices. Meaning that if, say, you have a DNI to your commlink too, that's quite possibly a way of getting at any exclusively-DNI ware.
And to be specific, I'm talking about inter-device connections, wireless or otherwise. If the device in question is connecting through any number of steps to a wireless device, that makes it vulnerable to wireless hacking.
So you're saying I was wrong when I said "you can't send commands to limbs from a commlink through someone's brain"? That is what you'd be doing if you're going commlink>DNI>cybeware. There'd be no direct connection, so you'd have to pass the data right through the user's brain (that being the central spot where all the DNI information goes and comes from in this situation).
I think that'd be the main part where we disagree. I don't think everything that is connected to you via DNI is connected to eachother. I just don't think you can pass your data through someone else's brain to their cyberware.
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You're not going through their brain - you're piggybacking on whatever establishes the DNI. DNI isn't your brain, it's an interface between your brain and various devices. Hence why the DNI must be established by some particular piece of hardware.
Basically, you're making a false assumption about what a DNI is.
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You're not going through their brain - you're piggybacking on whatever establishes the DNI. DNI isn't your brain, it's an interface between your brain and various devices. Hence why the DNI must be established by some particular piece of hardware.
Basically, you're making a false assumption about what a DNI is.
But... You don't have to buy a DNI as a separate piece of cyberware, it's not like its one implant that all the other things require you to first have, it comes with each piece of 'ware you buy... So each has its own, separate DNI that connects it to your brain so you can control it like you could any other part of your body. Each DNI equipped cyber enhancement just goes from the limb, through their build-in DNI, to your brain.
I really don't think they're connected to each-other. I don't think the books say anything for or against either of us, though... So I'm not sure how we'd find out if one of us is misunderstanding something or not.
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You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A. There's also some sections of Unwired that you should take a look at, such as page 102; it establishes that the DNI is a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware.
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You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A. There's also some sections of Unwired that you should take a look at, such as page 102; it establishes that the DNI is a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware.
This blows my mind. So you can't have any cybernetics then without one of those things? Or is it just that you've got datajacks that all your 'ware is hooked up to? Seriously, that... What? If not, then how do you -control- your limbs without a DNI? Because not every character with cybernetics has one of those things... I need to go look at some sample NPCs.
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I'm inclined to assume the implantation of your first DNI-enabled ware includes the implantation of the sim module. It's not to specific on the point of where the cyberware DNI comes from, but is on what getting that DNI requires.
There's an alternate approach, but it's a hell of a lot stricter.
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Hmm... Well, thanks for all the information you've given me. I guess the next thing would be, how you interpret the page you referenced, specifically this section:
Most external implants (like cyberlimbs) only have wired connections, requiring the hacker to physically jack in to
access the device. A datajack provides immediate access to all cyber-implants with a direct neural interface. Many internal implants have wireless links to aid medical staff in running diagnostics (like wired reflexes) or to link to other devices (like a smartlink).
This might mean that a DNI isn't required, since they are just controlled via "wired connection". Their example of Wired Reflexes sounds like the kind you could disable without losing any actual function. The smartlink is of course vulnerable, as we both agree on. But then they also specify datajacks providing immediate access to DNI implants... But now I'm not sure what exactly those -are-.
I'm quickly becoming lost; I appreciate your input in the discussion but it's falling out of my hands. XD
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Reflexes still needs the DNI or wireless to be able to activate and deactivate it. That particular section you're quoting, though, is problematic as all hell because it completely neglects the fact that direct connection to a device is not a direct requirement.
I'm getting towards filing this under "matrix rules are vague", however, here's a summary of the facts as I understand them at this stage.
- Control of cyberware is done through wireless or DNI connections.
- As a corollary to the above, DNI is not necessarily a wireless connection; the method of reaching the DNI could be.
- As the DNI is a central point of connection, it can be used to bridge over between DNI connected devices; this is what a datajack is basically doing.
- As a DNI can be a wired connection, a device being wired only does not preclude that connection being a DNI.
- Establishing a DNI requires one of the listed pieces of equipment.
This leaves some unanswered questions, however.
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You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.
only to use DNI on external gadgets like an external Comlink or external Smartlink.
every Cyberware comes included with DNI so you can control it with Your Brain.
Since 2065 (SR4) Cyberware comes ALSO (additionally) with Wifi for Ease of use (I guess)
WiFi is an Add-on nothing more,nothing less It can be used but its NOT (!!) neccessary
HokaHey
Medicineman
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You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.
only to use DNI on external gadgets like an external Comlink or external Smartlink.
every Cyberware comes included with DNI so you can control it with Your Brain.
Since 2065 (SR4) Cyberware comes ALSO (additionally) with Wifi for Ease of use (I guess)
WiFi is an Add-on nothing more,nothing less It can be used but its NOT (!!) neccessary
HokaHey
Medicineman
See, I've been looking for something to actually state that cyberware offers its DNI in some way other than the aforementioned methods. I've found nothing.
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One thing in particular that bothered me was someone who said wireless was badly designed, because the best way to protect yourself against it was to not use it at all. This, to me, is like saying "Combat rules were a mistake! The best way to avoid dieing is to not fight in the first place, what's up with that?" as if that means the system isn't thought out.
This is not a very good argument because it relies on a false analogy. If you could only shoot other people who have drawn guns, that would be a valid point. You cannot "opt out" of combat, because other people can force you to fight, but you can (and most characters actually should) "opt out" of the hacking minigame because there is no reason to have things like your cyberware be hackable in the first place.
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It was an exaggeration and a parody, UmaroVI. I disagree about not being able to opt out of combat (that's what social skills and stealth are for), and on your comment about opting out of hacking, the idea is that we're trying to discuss why cyberware has to open to the wireless matrix, or why it doesn't. Remember that no mechanic should be 100%, I don't think any way of avoiding something should always work.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm a little concerned that subject (how to avoid combat) is a bit too far off topic of the thread, and the statement was intended as just an opener. Sorry if I offended you.
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I'll take your word on the parody.
My point is not really about how to avoid combat, but rather that most characters can and should opt out of hacking. Having reviewed what you've written, I think where you are going wrong is this step:
One more thing to mention is skinlinks and the good old datajack+cable combination. They are both examples of non-wireless ways to send data. It's worth pointing out though, that they are still vulnerable. This is where I believe people became confused about what DNI means. A skinlink/fiberoptic cable can't be intercepted, and you can't send wireless commands to something that operates using those alone. However, this is where hacking someone's PAN -does- grant you access. A skinlinked smartgun and skinlinked Cybereyes might be impossible to intercept, stopping you from directly altering what a smartlink tells them, but it doesn't prevent you from using their commlink to issue commands to the gun (which it is important to specify here, is something that can be done with a commlink, unlike controlling a cyberlimb).
Here's the issue: why are you using an online commlink to control your offline skinlinked gun and eyes? Nothing stops you from connecting them to an offline, Skinlinked commlink that's completely separate from and not connected to the online commlink you use to update your NeoFaceBook and make calls.
To be clear, I am not saying that this is or isn't good game design, just that it is how things work.
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I actually think I was completely wrong about that section; you don't actually need to connect the skinlinked smartgun or cybereyes/smartlink glasses to a commlink at all, since you can command them entirely with your eyes, just like how you can "click" and interact with AROs with image linked glasses alone. So, using those both skinlinked would make it an entirely separate system that isn't connected to the matrix.
That's one of the ways to get something completely sectioned off. Unfortunately, it's not always doable with everything.
Also, and I'm mostly curious about Rhat's opinion on this, it might be vulnerable via the confusion that is hacking a DNI then using that to transmit skinlinked information, or it might just be vulnerable if you had, for some reason, a device with both wireless and skinlinked functionality, but that's clearly a bad idea. It sounds unlikely to me, but I'm mainly being cautious.
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Your smartinked gear is already connected to the commlink for purposes of its image link anyways. You're more secure if it's slaved to the commlink and to the same with the smartgun.
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My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.
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Wh
My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.
Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.
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Even though the rules don't mention it, I'm pretty sure you can actually have really short-range transmitter (like 10 cm range) in a glove and the gun grip, and cable running up your sleeve to your glasses or datajack, with wireless turned completely off on both the gun and the glasses. Unless the skinlink works really reliably even with mud, sand and sweat, military would want something like that. Or you could do that with skinlink on gun and glasses, and don't have skinlink on you commlink, so you run gun and glasses on completely separate circuit, again with wifi off.
Of course, not having commlink connected to glasses means you won't see any AR, and I'm not sure how necessary it is to live in Shadowrun. That depends on your GM mostly, but you can still turn off your normal commlink and use cheap disposable commlink as walkie-talkie without skinlink on the run, and be safe from most of the hacking.
No AR means no tacnet, sure, but if you're running tacnet, you probably have dedicated hacker (or "EW specialist") to take care of you.
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Shortest range is 3 meters. Not all that hard to get a higher signal drone in range.
And in SR4, based on the setting as presented, you're not gonna get by too well without AR - you even pay for things in AR. Which is why image links are so cheap.
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WhMy smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.
Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.
Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.
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WhMy smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.
Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.
Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.
If they're skinlinked and aren't running any wireless, this is certainly true. Given that he was talking about isolation and not wireless removal, however... Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.
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While we're on the topic;
Smartgun <> Cybersafety (mod) <> Cybersafety ('ware) <> Imagelink / Smartlink ('ware)
If the character also possesses a cyberware smartlink system, the safety links to it and the direct contact overrides any wireless smartlink input, essentially making the smartlink immune from hacking.
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That'll do it. Though, a question occurs to me: given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
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WhMy smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.
Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.
Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.
If they're skinlinked and aren't running any wireless, this is certainly true. Given that he was talking about isolation and not wireless removal, however... Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.
I don't see why you would want to. If your commlink is offline, you aren't getting AR. If it's online, you have made yourself vulnerable to hacking again and thus defeated the point.
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You're not going through their brain - you're piggybacking on whatever establishes the DNI. DNI isn't your brain, it's an interface between your brain and various devices. Hence why the DNI must be established by some particular piece of hardware.
I think that taking a step back and looking at the definitions might be helpful here: DNI = Direct Neural Interface. Cyberlimbs are an extension of modern day prosthetics, their neural interface connects to the nerves that used to connect to the limb. Yes, there are other cyberware that's implanted and has DNI, with the vast majority of all cyberware having DNI, but that's a component of each implanted cyberware and not a centralized system. I think you're making an erroneous presumption that all cyberware is connected to each other - they're likely all connected to the PAN, but not likely to each other.
You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A. There's also some sections of Unwired that you should take a look at, such as page 102; it establishes that the DNI is a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware.
The target character may be shut out of controlling his own
implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges
(requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).
This is the closest thing that I can find to your mention of DNI being a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware, and it's not. It's a hacker shutting off access to cyberware. DNI is normally a means to prevent a hacker from getting into your 'ware, and it stops this generally by removing the wireless, not adding a new means of an outside hacker communicating with your implants. Unless you're saying that the hacker slaps on some double-sided trodes and goes into grappling with the target, in which case he deserves to have his neck snapped for trying to hack while in melee with a sam.
I'm inclined to assume the implantation of your first DNI-enabled ware includes the implantation of the sim module.
I'm curious where the idea that DNI includes a Sim Module comes from. There's no need for special firmware conversions that facilitate VR when you're attaching a cyberhand that lets you resume use of a hand that you previously had, used conventional nerves to control, and then go back to using nerves to control. Cybered characters don't need to rig themselves just to use their 'ware.
just like how you can "click" and interact with AROs with image linked glasses alone.
Those glasses need to have wireless enabled in order to receive the AROs, and the book mentions devices like AR gloves or keyboards or such that are needed to control and interact with AR. I'm sure there's an eyeblink system that allows similar functionality, but it's not the standard presumed in SR4.
a device with both wireless and skinlinked functionality, but that's clearly a bad idea. It sounds unlikely to me, but I'm mainly being cautious.
Devices with skinlink can be set to default to skinlink, in essence shutting off their wireless - this setting would then toggle back to 'wireless on' if your skinlink is ever broken, such as if you have a smartlinked gun and it's knocked from your hands.
I'm pretty sure you can actually have really short-range transmitter (like 10 cm range) in a glove
Signal rating 0 is roughly 3 meters. Either way, I think you're right that skinlink isn't perfect (though it probably wouldn't be disrupted by sweat - look up galvanic skin response, a technique in some psychology experiments to measure physiological state), and the military would likely have more of a reliance on tried-and-proven wired.
Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.
If they're both linked to a skinlinked commlink, which is a wireless device, they're now (indirectly) connected to the outside wireless world. Unless you're talking about operating two commlinks at once, which is something I've done on several characters before, but you still need to have the image link connected to something wireless or you can't interact with AR.
Though, a question occurs to me: given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
In theory yes, but the cybersafety in Shadowrun is based on a wireless security chip that exists NOW, and has a signal range of something like 5-10 centimeters. One's implanted in the gun and locks the gun's safety mechanism if it's not in range of the safety chip, which is usually in a wristband or such easily worn item (or an implanted chip in Augment).
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I always kept two commlinks, a public that had my fake SIN, licenses, etc. that had a set of Image-Linked glasses that was skinlinked. My smartlinked gun was skinlinked to a second commlink in hidden mode with a pair of goggles that I could pull on in a fight. The tricky part comes with multiple trode sets or data jacks for each commlink.
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[...] book mentions devices like AR gloves or keyboards or such that are needed to control and interact with AR. I'm sure there's an eyeblink system that allows similar functionality, but it's not the standard presumed in SR4.
Control and manipulation of the AR interface can be accomplished with a variety of means.
Input devices include vocal commands into a microphone, AR gloves, micro-laser eye trackers in glasses, or even mental commands through direct neural interface.
When all else fails, the rudimentary controls on the commlink itself can be used.
Things from the Core Rules seem pretty standard to me... 8)
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Good catch. I forgot about the micro-laser one (probably a silly thing to forget given that we've been working on the concept since before the 60s and have semi-reliable models now).
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I'm curious where the idea that DNI includes a Sim Module comes from. There's no need for special firmware conversions that facilitate VR when you're attaching a cyberhand that lets you resume use of a hand that you previously had, used conventional nerves to control, and then go back to using nerves to control. Cybered characters don't need to rig themselves just to use their 'ware.
I think he's just picking the least-explicit example from the list on the definition of DNI in the core book:
Direct Neural Interface (DNI): A connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system. DNI is conveyed by an implanted commlink, an implanted sim module, a datajack, or worn trodes.
As it implies that you require one of those things in order to have a DNI. This also is related to the assumption that cyberware is DNI-controlled, based off this excerpt from Augmentation.
Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant. This is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer. Obviously, not all implants require such interfaces. Some,such as dermal plating and bone-lacing, are passive augmentations and don’t do much but make you tougher or stronger. Implants that don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course.
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So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
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So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
You mean DNI ?
Thats allready included in Cyberware (for Free) its part of the 'ware
So NO ,you don't need to buy that too
with a Free Dance
Medicineman
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So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
You mean DNI ?
Thats allready included in Cyberware (for Free) its part of the 'ware
So NO ,you don't need to buy that too
with a Free Dance
Medicineman
AKA, hooray inconsistency. This one, though, is at least easily dealt with by assuming that the implantation of your first piece of DNI 'ware includes one of those things. However, as the definition of DNI is written, one of those things is required - it is written as an exclusive list.
Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.
Some internal implants (such as cortex bombs) have no wireless or DNI connections and so are isolated from other systems,
Implying that DNI devices without wireless are not, in fact, isolated from other systems.
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given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
I don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with. By SR RAW, I wouldn't consider the CS a wireless device, and that would make the best way in through the user / smartlink end of the loop.
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what inconsistency ,RHat ?
DNI is part of most of the Cyberware .its included and neccessary for 'ware to work that way
Its always been hat way (at least in SR2 & 3 )
HougH!
Medicineman
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All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.
-k
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Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.
Didn't miss it, I was responding to the implication that a hacker can use DNI to hack into somebody's implants. Wireless is a much better option, DNI is just one means of cyberlimb communication that a hacker can mess up. It's really not something a hacker can use without resorting to the extreme example I made.
All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, separate PAN for communication gear.
My kind of people.
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Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.
Didn't miss it, I was responding to the implication that a hacker can use DNI to hack into somebody's implants. Wireless is a much better option, DNI is just one means of cyberlimb communication that a hacker can mess up. It's really not something a hacker can use without resorting to the extreme example I made.
What I'm saying is that it appears to be saying that if you can get access to a DNI'd device somehow (wireless direct, some form of routing... There's options), the text appears to be implying that you could bridge over to other DNI'd devices through the DNI. It makes sense from the perspective that any connection is a potential vulnerability, but it certainly caught me by surprise.
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That makes much more sense. Not sure if I share your interpretation, but since the books don't go into that much detail (and really probably don't need to, generally), I would presume that would be a table-by-table basis thing.
Wireless, wired, and skinlinked devices on the other hand would very easily be accessible once you gained access to something on that network. I just don't think that the target's nervous system would be a sufficiently reliable medium for you to hop from DNI left cyberarm to DNI right cyberarm if there's no connection between them except the nerves.
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Right, but remember that the DNI isn't the brain or nervous system - it's an interface, a piece of technology. The purpose of it is to sit between the subjects brain/CNS and their ware/gear, and allow information from one to be processed by the other.
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All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.
Truly paranoid runners? Without spending 10k nuyen in matrix security, this is the only way to not get hacked by any script-kiddie hacker in about ten seconds. Everyone who is not completely clueless should do that in SR4.
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Right, but remember that the DNI isn't the brain or nervous system - it's an interface, a piece of technology. The purpose of it is to sit between the subjects brain/CNS and their ware/gear, and allow information from one to be processed by the other.
In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that
allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants.
The way I read it, each Direct Neural Interface is a separate connection to the brain, not a single unit that all DNI devices run through. In the case of a cyberlimb, the connection would likely terminate at the end of the remaining natural nerves (because there's no reason not to). Datajacks usually connect directly to the nervous system wherever they are located, with different locations being better for different uses (in previous versions, riggers put them on the back of their neck for better sensory control, and deckers put them on their forehead to connect to the frontal lobe's raw processing power).
Direct Neural Interface (DNI): A connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system. DNI is conveyed by an implanted commlink, an implanted sim module, a datajack, or worn trodes.
There is a computer in a cyberlimb. That computer is translating the DNI signals into data that the servos and motors and such in the limb can understand, and vice versa with the feedback from the touch sensors and things in the limb. It is filling the role of an implanted commlink, just a very specialized one.
I agree that the idea of connecting to a DNI device from another DNI device seems...wrong. Maybe if they're bothe external, and connecting through the same DNI connection (both plugged into the same datajack, running off the same trodenet, etc) that would work, but the whole point of DNI is that the brain can't process or transmit raw computer data that way, so unless they're connected somewhere on the 'ware side or sharing the same connection, it really shouldn't work.
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I agree that the idea of connecting to a DNI device from another DNI device seems...wrong. Maybe if they're bothe external, and connecting through the same DNI connection (both plugged into the same datajack, running off the same trodenet, etc) that would work, but the whole point of DNI is that the brain can't process or transmit raw computer data that way, so unless they're connected somewhere on the 'ware side or sharing the same connection, it really shouldn't work.
I'm inclined to argue that it would absolutely work for things that are converted to DNI using one of the Four Methods, because then there's explicitly a technological point of connection between them. It's the lack of definition for how cyberware DNI works, combined with the lack of allowance in the definition of DNI for other possibilities, that has me questioning how precisely that interacts with cyberware.
It's certainly an inconsistency, and at the end of the day probably down to GM ruling.
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Seven years on, and people still discuss stuff which is plainly stated in the books...
Cyberware and DNI:
DNI AND WIRELESS FUNCTIONALITY
Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant. This is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer. Obviously, not all implants require such interfaces. Some, such as dermal plating and bone-lacing, are passive augmentations and don’t do much but make you tougher or stronger. Implants that don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course.
Wireless functionality is complementary to direct neural control, allowing diagnostics checks, connection redundancy in case of damage to the neural relays, software/firmware updates, and non-invasive monitoring of the implant’s performance.
How to prevent your 'ware from getting hacked:
CHANGE LINKED DEVICE MODE
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to either by a direct neural interface or by wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on.
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That doesn't remotely address the specific question, here.
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That doesn't remotely address the specific question, here.
...in the way you'd prefer it to be addressed, you mean
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I think he means "That doesn't address whether hacking something hooked up by DNI allows access to other items hooked up by DNI, since it never states whether it's a single DNI in your body attached to every implant or if each has its own."
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I think he means "That doesn't address whether hacking something hooked up by DNI allows access to other items hooked up by DNI, since it never states whether it's a single DNI in your body attached to every implant or if each has its own."
It does: "Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface". Not "there is a single DNI to which most cyberware is connected".
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All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.
-k
And, if you're malicious enough and have the cash, yet another PAN that's a decoy, chock-a-block full of Black ICE.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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OP:
This is nothing but the standard nonsense....
All internal active implants have DNI. The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though... internal commlink has direct access... Trodes + sim module... or datajack.
DNI is nothing but the bodies nervous system. It's a transmission path. It's like an ethernet cable... on it's own it doesn't do anything... but the brain on one side and the cyber on the other somehow learn to talk directly to each other and operate. That's why the external access port provided by the above is important... without them nothing outside the body could ever get into the DNI network.
This is no different than skinlink provides an alternate way to wire two things together. It's the physical layer on which the network runs.. DNI == nerves, Skinlink == skin, RF == wireless signal rating. You get onto each by a different method.
As for the rest... hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits. Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's... then the AI's installed into fully drone bodies. While in SR cyber is not a pure metal solution... it has both meat and metal parts to make it work. I'll repeat that.. they've had their consciousness transformed into AI's. The exact opposite of shadowrun.
It also relies on a completely flawed analogy that cyberlimbs are drones. They're not... they don't have sensor ratings or a slew of other drone attributes. Even if you granted that a limb could... it would have no way of letting you know what it was doing or where it was pointed in the case of a gun.
You don't 'rig' your cyberarms (plural). You can only jump-in to a single drone at a single time. Yet you seamlessly can control all the individual parts of a full cyberbody without any kind of problems. You don't have a matrix icon present in a cyberlimb which the hacker can attack as if you were a rigger in a drone either.
As for the rest... there's no good reason whatsoever for anything to be wireless it simply doesn't pass the smell test. If I'm at the local street doc to get my cyber checked up... he doesn't need wireless... all he needs to do is slap a helmet on me with a trode net to a cheap sim module and he can do the diagnostics easily enough. It's nothing other than the 'everything is wireless' mistake that SR4 made to be taken to an absurd degree.
Toss in wireless nanites... and the whole thing goes even worse... as they can turn on anything wireless which has been turned off. Or even provide wireless themselves. It removes any semblance whatsoever to those other setting tropes... where it's possible to turn off all outside connections at will (GitS this is referred to as autistic mode).
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Applause to Falconer
He sums it up pretty well :D 8)
Thumps up
with an affirmative Dance
Medicineman
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Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's
http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberbrain
For reference. It's not unlike the headware and cranial containment units SR has already, until you get to the extremes. (and let's face it, the books don't cover the furthest extremes of the SR setting)
hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits
You mean the writers of things like Unwired?
Here's your lawn.jpeg
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Since it seemed like you were responding to me in particular, Falconer (that is what you meant by OP, yes?) I figured I'd respond back to you specifically as well.
The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though ... It's a transmission path.
That is what I wanted to hear. It makes sense to me. However, it does mean that if you get anything that gives you access, you -are- able to access anything else that's connected via DNI. Also, you didn't mention what I think is a big clincher here-- DNI also allows you to have your own brain be at the starting end of the transmission path, unlike other methods of data transfer.
The rest of what you said is sensible, it would be incredibly difficult to control a limb that isn't one of your own. Even if you had a way to transmit the exact same kind of data (let's imaging it's as if the cyberlimb is yours and you can move it as if it were attached to you) your brain simply doesn't know how to move it properly, because it's not familiar with that limb. In addition, the crippling lack of proper perspective would make it difficult to control (if anyone's ever gotten confused in a room full of mirrors, it's kind of like that I imagine). So, to me, best-case scenario of you having some way to essentially assimilate someone's cyberlimbs would still leave you unable to control them without serious difficulty.
As for your statement about wireless not being needed for street docs, it's just convenience. It's much cheaper for them to just read the RFID tag in your cyberlimb and see what the problem is than to buy and set up and run the diagnostic manually. It may seem a bit lazy, but, hey. It's easier and it's cheaper.
And according to the characters in the game, you don't need to be worried, remember?
> Okay, but does that mean that if I get into a fight with a hacker or technomancer they can just reach out and turn off my cyberarm?
> Hard Exit
> Maybe, but probably not. Cyberarms and most implants that have an exposed area on the body often require direct wired connections through access ports and the like, not a wireless signal. If you’re really worried about it, you should keep your cyberarm in hidden mode—or better yet, turn it off. Not always the best option, but it prevents hacking.
> Butch
I have a feeling Rhat would say something like "The characters aren't meant to be taken as completely reliable sources of information, they're supposed to be (meta)human and make mistakes like everyone else." but to me, that was the writers way of saying "This isn't a big a deal as it sounds. We didn't suddenly screw over all the Street Samurai."
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firebug:
OP == Original poster... it's used to reference the person who started the thread when someone like me who is awful with names forgets the nickname and has editted the post and can't go back to look it up.
DNI == Direct Neural Interface IIRC... just means it plugs right into the bodies nervous system... items like synaptic boosters, wired ref, reflex boosters, etc... just act to make the nerves more efficient at passing signals increasing their bandwidth... enhancing reaction times.
Anyhow shadowtalk is supposed to be a rumormill and taken for flavor. At any point it could be wrong. But even the bit you reference could be taken to support the opposite position. It's wireless... someone uses some cheap nanites and turns the wireless back on... now suck it as they bust into your arm since you're not a hacker yourself and have no way to turn it off. Then the question turns to... well what can they do with it now that they compromised it?
This was stressed a lot more in prior editions. The recent edition though has a much smaller pool of posters with a lot more repeat posts... which I think has kind of lost that feel. especially since authors don't want their pet shadowtalkers to come off as a fool and spewing misinformation generally it feels to me.
Novacraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Ghost_in_the_Shell
Try again... all cyberbrains in SR terms are on the grade of Cranial Containment Units. And only the lightest grade of cyberization at that in GitS terms... as the brain is kept almost pure in a box with some light augmentation and support electronics. I'll even quote... from the wiki on light cyberization "Physical improvements are limited to a very thin titanium shell around the cortex." That sounds like a brain in a box to me.
It takes the view that the body is nothing but a drone and goes straight for brainhacking the cyberbrain to edit the sensor feeds and such from the eyes. They don't hack the eyes... they get into the brain itself... then edit the feed... or send fake signals to even the real meat body.
Brainhacking is something not really found in SR. If you recall Mr Trollman over on dumpshock that was his typical bete noire. Something him and only a few people would typically push for repeatedly while the rest wanted nothing to do with it. But it was one of those topics they'd continually bring up.
The closest you get is psychotropic program options for black hammers and the like. Or stuffed into things like BTLs. Or the massive brainwashing lab.
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The internal/external thing would be a good answer if the definition of a DNI referenced the four methods as being for external stuff. Like I said, it's an inconsistency - the text disagrees with itself, leaving open the question of whether or not the technological interface could be used to to connect from a wireless vulnerable DNI'd device to a wireless disabled DNI'd device. So it comes down to how the GM wants to handle it.
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OP:
This is nothing but the standard nonsense....
All internal active implants have DNI. The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though... internal commlink has direct access... Trodes + sim module... or datajack.
DNI is nothing but the bodies nervous system. It's a transmission path. It's like an ethernet cable... on it's own it doesn't do anything... but the brain on one side and the cyber on the other somehow learn to talk directly to each other and operate. That's why the external access port provided by the above is important... without them nothing outside the body could ever get into the DNI network.
This is no different than skinlink provides an alternate way to wire two things together. It's the physical layer on which the network runs.. DNI == nerves, Skinlink == skin, RF == wireless signal rating. You get onto each by a different method.
This isn't quite accurate. Wireless and Skinlink are just means of data transmission, using radio waves or the electrical conductivity of the skin respectively. DNI is more than that, it doesn't just transmit and receive data along the nervous system, it translates that data into a form that the brain can understand and vice versa. Only Technomancers can actually think in machine code, everyone else needs DNI.
Think of it like connecting a Blu-Ray player to an old CRT TV. Something has to translate between digital and analog and back for them to communicate. That is the DNI.
As for the rest... hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits. Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's... then the AI's installed into fully drone bodies. While in SR cyber is not a pure metal solution... it has both meat and metal parts to make it work. I'll repeat that.. they've had their consciousness transformed into AI's. The exact opposite of shadowrun.
It also relies on a completely flawed analogy that cyberlimbs are drones. They're not... they don't have sensor ratings or a slew of other drone attributes. Even if you granted that a limb could... it would have no way of letting you know what it was doing or where it was pointed in the case of a gun.
You don't 'rig' your cyberarms (plural). You can only jump-in to a single drone at a single time. Yet you seamlessly can control all the individual parts of a full cyberbody without any kind of problems. You don't have a matrix icon present in a cyberlimb which the hacker can attack as if you were a rigger in a drone either.
I agree. Cyberware hacking doesn't belong in SR. It is an idea that seems to have been added late in the process and it has never been fully explained or integrated into the rest of the system.
To clarify Falconer's statement for anyone who hasn't seen Ghost in the Shell, in that setting most people have had their physical brain replaced by a computer (the "Shell") that they have uploaded their consciousness and soul into (the "Ghost"). This is the most common cyberenhancement in the setting, often possessed by individuals that have no other cyberware at all. All additional cyberware requires a cyberbrain and is controlled like a rigged drone, requiring concious operation. There is no Essence loss, because your "Ghost" (soul, spirit, Essence, whatever) is uploaded into your Cyberbrain along with your mind, and is the only difference between a clone or robot, and a fully cybered human. If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost (Puppet Master). All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices. It makes everyone a Technomancer.
In SR, things work very differently. Even a full conversion cyborg (Jarhead) still has to have a meat brain, and that brain cannot be hacked directly because it doesn't communicate in the same language that machines do. Other than those individuals, no one else rigs their cyberlimbs because they don't need to. That is what the DNI accomplishes, translating biological "brain code" into machine code and back again at the point of connection, but the biological nervous system is not a computer network. You can't send a signal into a nerves in your arm and have it route to the nerves in your leg. Nerve signals don't just pass through the brain like a router, and anything on the biological side of the DNI cannot be interacted with except through a DNI.
TL;DR - cyberware hacking makes sense in Ghost in the Shell, and doesn't in Shadowrun.
As for the rest... there's no good reason whatsoever for anything to be wireless it simply doesn't pass the smell test. If I'm at the local street doc to get my cyber checked up... he doesn't need wireless... all he needs to do is slap a helmet on me with a trode net to a cheap sim module and he can do the diagnostics easily enough. It's nothing other than the 'everything is wireless' mistake that SR4 made to be taken to an absurd degree.
Toss in wireless nanites... and the whole thing goes even worse... as they can turn on anything wireless which has been turned off. Or even provide wireless themselves. It removes any semblance whatsoever to those other setting tropes... where it's possible to turn off all outside connections at will (GitS this is referred to as autistic mode).
The wireless nanites don't make any sense at all to me. I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed? If the computer in the device doesn't have the software or hardware required to send or receive wireless transmissions, that would be like connecting a wireless networking adapter to a modern computer but not installing the driver for it. The computer would technically be wireless, and could be detected and even connected to wirelessly, but there would be no way to do anything over that wireless link because the computer can't communicate with the wireless adapter.
Basically they exist for the sole purpose of being a "Fuck you" to runners who make a tactical decision to sacrifice the convenience of wireless in favor of security.
Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's
http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberbrain
For reference. It's not unlike the headware and cranial containment units SR has already, until you get to the extremes. (and let's face it, the books don't cover the furthest extremes of the SR setting)
As stated, it is entirely unline headware and cranial containment, as it involves actually replacing the meat brain with a computer that somehow runs your mind and soul as software.
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This isn't quite accurate. Wireless and Skinlink are just means of data transmission, using radio waves or the electrical conductivity of the skin respectively. DNI is more than that, it doesn't just transmit and receive data along the nervous system, it translates that data into a form that the brain can understand and vice versa. Only Technomancers can actually think in machine code, everyone else needs DNI.
Think of it like connecting a Blu-Ray player to an old CRT TV. Something has to translate between digital and analog and back for them to communicate. That is the DNI.
Minor point: Technomancer DNI technically comes from the sim module that is an automatic element of the bio-node.
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SR4a dictionary of terms...
Direct Neural Interface (DNI):
"..... DNI is conveyed by a ..."
convey:
1. transport or carried to a place
2. translate the meaning of
I'm using the first definition of the word... You're insisting on the second when it makes no sense. And both definitions aren't mutually exclusive either... you can have someone/thing transport and translate a message at the same time using that one word.
Implanted commlink, implanted sim module, datajack, or external trodes + sim module are needed to extend DNI control signals outside the body. The definition is in the matrix chapter of all places and deals with interacting with the matrix... so it makes sense in this context. Since it simply restates what the rules say elsewhere about these 4 devices being required or sufficient for certain operations involving AR and VR.
p338... Cyberware:
Most cyberware is equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI).
IE: they read the natural body signals directly off the nerves and do what they're supposed to do. There was a guy who had a computer chip embedded onto the nerve into his arm... who can operate robotic arms a continent away and even 'feel' what the pressure sensors on the arm do. And here's an even more recent article.
You have the brain on one side, the nerves forming the communications path (what most people refer to as DNI), and some kind of computer on the other reading the signals off the nerves and sending some back.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/28/robotic-arm-transplant-operation?page=all
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Careful Rhat... I feel like if we start discussing technomancers too much, we will open a whole new can of worms that's not even understood in-game.
Falconer, I agree that it transports data, but you also say it has to by nature translate it, so I'm not sure why you say the second definition makes no sense. So, a DNI is using your neural system as a way to transport and translate code/brain signals back and forth.
So if someone did access it via an outside (wireless) source, and we're assuming that they're doing it through say, access to an implanted commlink, they could use the DNI to send signals to all other DNI-enabled devices?
So, I think it comes down to... Hacking cyberware is unlikely to be possible because the wireless functionality is easily turned off, but if someone has an implanted commlink or something wireless that's -also- plugged into a datajack, you could use that to gain access to their other DNI things because the DNI is just using their nervous system as a new route to transport data, and is fully capable of any translation needed to go between computer code and brain signals?
But that's worrysome. Because then you could use a DNI to literally pilot a person's whole body the same way you've gotten access to everything else; just send data that the DNI will translate into neural data and thus you can move someone's body.
It would have to be able to translate right into brain signals, or else how would it produce feedback from limbs or simsense that your brain can understand? And if your brain can understand it, everything else can...
blrgrg. The unwashed masses were right!
3) Technomancers can hack your brain and read your thoughts!
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If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost (Puppet Master). All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices.
The only person that I recall that had his vision hacked (I remember that episode with Laughing Man) was Batou, who had cybereyes. He thought a similar event happened in a different episode when a girl can "see" him in a dark room despite his active camo, though she was actually blind and never relied on her eyes in the first place.
I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed?
They act as the wireless and pass on any commands? It's the same as plugging a satellite receiver into a computer to get internet even when you're out of a wireless zone. I do think that it's a tad overmuch into the "throwing wireless around", at least for their cost (I'm sure the Vorlons could concoct something like this, but that's like saying "I'm sure a Great Dragon could cast a spell like that"), and even then it's not like wireless nanites are cheap and easy to grab from the local Stuffer Shack. They're nanite weapons, and if they're getting broken out then things are getting serious.
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If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost (Puppet Master). All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices.
The only person that I recall that had his vision hacked (I remember that episode with Laughing Man) was Batou, who had cybereyes. He thought a similar event happened in a different episode when a girl can "see" him in a dark room despite his active camo, though she was actually blind and never relied on her eyes in the first place.
Maybe I'm mis-remembering (I haven't seen it since it first came out fansubbed), but I thought the whole scary thing about the Laughing Man is that he hacked everyone's eyes, which is why everyone saw the logo instead of his face. Again, I don't really remember the conclusion to that story arc.
I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed?
They act as the wireless and pass on any commands? It's the same as plugging a satellite receiver into a computer to get internet even when you're out of a wireless zone. I do think that it's a tad overmuch into the "throwing wireless around", at least for their cost (I'm sure the Vorlons could concoct something like this, but that's like saying "I'm sure a Great Dragon could cast a spell like that"), and even then it's not like wireless nanites are cheap and easy to grab from the local Stuffer Shack. They're nanite weapons, and if they're getting broken out then things are getting serious.
A satellite receiver doesn't do any good if you just set it on top of the computer though. Sure it has wireless, and it's touching the computer, but that doesn't mean the computer has wireless. It doesn't do any good to run a cord from the satellite receiver to the power supply either. And you can't just solder a wire to the motherboard and call it an interface either. You have to connect via one of only a few standard plugs and protocols. Unless the nanites actually manage to get inside the datajack, there is no way for them to create a wireless connection because they aren't connected to the computer in the arm in any meaningful way.
Even connecting correctly doesn't help you unless the computer not only detects the connection, but understands what it is for and how to use it by installing the appropriate drivers. If the computer doesn't have a NIC driver, it will never connect to a network no matter how you plug it in. If I am paranoid enough to remove the wireless receiver from my cyberarm, I'm sure as hell going to uninstall the wireless drivers as well.
The only way the nanites could do what the book says they are capable of doing, is if they have the ability to interface with a computer just by touching it, and have the ability to subsequently hack past any defenses, install software onto the computer, and then act not just as a wireless antenna but as a complete wireless network adapter.
And don't forget, to hack a node, the hacker has to get into the public part of it first, and then they can run their hacking programs in that node to try and access the secure parts. The public portion is what allows the wireless device to act as a relay for unrelated packets and makes the Matrix possible. A device without wireless to begin with wouldn't have the "guest account" because it isn't acting as a relay, meaning the hacker has no way to get in and run his hacking software or agents against the node. Thus the nanites would also have to have enough processing power to act as the public portion of the node or else it wouldn't do any good.
These nanites, therefore can:
* Interface with electronics just by touching them
* Hack into those electronics and install software (automatically bypassing any firewall or software defenses)
* Host a node powerful enough for an icon to log onto it and run programs
* While also acting as a wireless transmitter, receiver and antenna
Their availability and cost seem very low for what they are capable of doing, especially compared to the rest of the tech in 2070.
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Hacking a DNI-connected device would not allow access to other DNI-connected devices. The DNI translates and conveys signals from the device to your brain. If you hack the device, the DNI isn't going to suddenly translate your hacking attempts into something that can pass along the neural network of your body.
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But it could pass along erroneous signals to your brain, hmm?
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That would be interesting. "If someone hacks your cyberlimb, they can assault your brain. This causes disorientation, similar to electric damage."
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I'm really not sure what the big deal with those nanites is. Yes, they suck if they get in your system, but (a) you can defend against them with the same methods you defend against toxins (ie, Chemical Seal), (b) Nanite Hunters at least provide some defense, (c) if you were not Chemically Sealed, whoever dosed you with the wacky nanites could also just have saved money and used Ringu anyways.
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Hacking a DNI-connected device would not allow access to other DNI-connected devices. The DNI translates and conveys signals from the device to your brain. If you hack the device, the DNI isn't going to suddenly translate your hacking attempts into something that can pass along the neural network of your body.
What you say is reasonable. And yet, the books say you are wrong, unfortunately.
Not all cyberware is hackable, though enough is to make a hacker’s interest worthwhile. To determine if a particular cyber-implant can be hacked, the following criteria must be met (note that these criteria actually apply to almost all devices, not just cyberware):
First, the cyberware must be computerized—not all implants need a built-in computer. Most cyberware, however is either computerized (or at least equipped with RFID sensor tags) so that it may be queried for diagnostics, controlled remotely or via direct neural interface, or communicate with other implants/devices. See DNI and Wireless Functionality, p. 31, Augmentation.
Second, the implant must be accessible by the hacker, via wired or wireless connection. Most external implants (like cyberlimbs) only have wired connections, requiring the hacker to physically jack in to access the device. A datajack provides immediate access to all cyber-implants with a direct neural interface. Many internal implants have wireless links to aid medical staff in running diagnostics (like wired reflexes) or to link to other devices (like a smartlink). The Signal rating
of internal implants tends to be low (usually 0), meaning that a hacker needs to be in close range. Such implants are often slaved to the character’s commlink, however, so a hacker who infiltrates the master node can access slaved implants (see Slaving, p. 55). Some internal implants (such as cortex bombs) have no wireless or DNI connection and so are isolated from other systems, requiring surgery to allow a hacker to jack in and access the device.
Bolded (and glowing!) for your convenience is that one bitch of a sentence that causes the most problems. Otherwise, I would agree with you that you can't start backhacking into someone's nervous system via their DNI. But you -can-. If a datajack lets you do it, what's the difference between that and getting into someone's implanted commlink? They are both simply ways that someone can access your DNI funcionality from the outside.
That said, those things really seem like they are otherwise the only way to get to someone's DNI. Otherwise, there's not much of a way to hack someone's cyberware if they just toggle off the wireless, save for specific nanites designed to infiltrate someone's body and specifically make their ware more vulnerable. But hey, nothing's 100%. As Umaro said, they can be resisted like toxins. Plus honestly... How often is that going to happen? Once, twice maybe to get a point that no defense is perfect? I doubt they're that commonplace. Also, if you encrypt something the nanites can't do shit to it, then you wave a little tag eraser (everyone carries those, right?) at yourself and they die.
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I largely agree with your other posts but not this one Anarkitty...
One the nanites don't need a reason or way to work... any tech sufficiently advanced is magic.
Two, signal tapper drones exist and are small... nothing stops nanites from tapping into fiber either.
Essentially the damn things pretty much have 'plot protection' as best I can tell... every time I see them used the players get screwed no matter how careful they are with their defenses.
Also I disagree with Umaro's defenses... because there are only two. Tag erasers don't help against nanites... they're not 'tags'. Anything used for toxin resistance doesn't work. Nanites aren't toxins. Chem seal is *NOT* common... chem seal is the equivalent of MOPP gear... it fully encloses the body in a completely sealed bubble. How many people walk around like that in bunny suits or do bubble boy impressions? Even on a run! The nanites come as an injection attack as well... so chem seal doesn't stop it unless you're wearing mil-spec armor either. That leaves only nanite hunters or packing your own personal jammer at all times and realizing that still doesn't stop comms within 10'. The only good thing there are nanohives are easy to stuff into capacity...
Firebug:
The only big of non-clarity I think in the rules is this much... if only those 4 methods provide a way to bridge connections between the matrix and DNI or whether anything with it can. Datajack, internal commlink or simmodule, trodes + simmodule. Each of those is clearly designed to translate and transport signals into a format your mind can interpret and vice versa. I suspect the intent of the rules is that those are the primary gateways between DNI and the matrix.
But I don't think the way they're written that is so. While from one POV it makes sense that only those 4 would form the bridge between external networks and the DNI 'wiring' as that's their design function. Given the standard node model... all nodes act as routers... and why would a DNI interface on any piece of kit not serve to route the traffic. You could make a weak argument that not all DNI's are created equal... but it's a weak argument.
That said... once again unless slaved. Again each node is it's own node and would need to be hacked individually. Also each one is a peripheral node and has very limited functionality as to what you can do inside of it. While a toaster may be a node... you're very limited in what you can do inside a toaster's node... normally only set how hot/long you want the toast burned for and to start the process. Maybe a deluxe model might even butter it for you as well. Read up on peripheral nodes for a better idea what I mean.
Even if slaved... you can only send one command to a single device per action... or send the same command to multiple devices. As once again... each one is an individual node... PAN has no meaning outside of this is all the junk that talks at very short ranges in some kind of a very short range network (bluetoothy, DNI, skinlinked...).
BTW: another way to screw with people and their stuff.... wireless skinlinked seats!
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It doesn't say hacking a DNI-enabled implant allows access to all others. It says jacking into someone's datajack allows access to all DNI-enabled implants. That makes perfect sense, since the datajack interface does exactly what the DNI wouldn't do. Translate your attempts.
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So, trying to optimize the results of using technology (keeping AR, Smartlink, and all 'ware functions) without opening holes for hackers must be theoretically possible. I'll start with cyberware.
Cyberware takes data from its link to the nervous system, so it can't have all networking disabled. However, if it was programmed to take data ONLY from that link (possibly with the exception of data requests for diagnostic purposes), then the data could be taken from that link and sent through a program in ROM, which interprets it and outputs the results as movement. The goal, then, would be to close down as much interaction as is possible at each stage of the 'ware's operation.
A hacker could not do much at the physical layer. Corrupting the data link between the person's brain and the machine, while it may sound promising in theory, would doubtlessly be shut down by security protocols. The input can't be hacked, because it's impossible to hack a human nervous system, and the output is closed to outside influence. A hacker could possibly install a backdoor in between the hardware output and the actual cyberware which would allow for remote operation, but that would be an exception, as nothing of the sort would be installed by default (except perhaps on corpsec personnel, if dictated by the GM). Data collection, diagnostics, and everything else not related to the direct operation of the 'ware would be disconnected for security purposes. This is made easier on the security by the fact that cyberware doesn't try to do more than it should-- Most of the security holes in modern computing are caused by plugins and applications that expand the functionality of the computer, thereby allowing for hackers to use the new functions for their own good.
However, say that the link's software is updated over the Matrix, for the savings on the corporate side and the convenience on the user end. Wireless security would definitely take great strides from today, but given the fact that it doesn't exist in Shadowrun for many years, the tech might not be that far ahead of where it is today. Today, hackers tend to fake out wireless security by pretending to be something else, poisoning different protocols and hiding the hack in otherwise normal transmissions. In the Sixth World, and our cyberware example, imagine that a corpsec goon with all sorts of 'ware is downloading updates, but a hacker has poisoned the Sixth World equivalent of DNS or ARP and connected the guard to their own server instead of the secure corporate server. The hacker can replace the software with something that suits his purposes. Today, this would only be possible sometimes. Updates are installed at a predetermined time or when the user starts them manually, the former being more common for most programs. That system gives the hacker little opportunity to take control of the device outside of the set update time, but once the update is installed, the hacker can theoretically control the 'ware completely, limited only by what piece was hacked and what it was connected to. Another option, and possibly the one used in the Sixth World, is that the corp sends out a signal to tell the 'ware to receive an update, and then asks for admin authorization and installs it. This gives more opportunity to a hacker, because with a few faked addresses and security certificates, the hacked update can be installed at any time, and the target would still believe that the update was legitimate. This might not be useful in the middle of combat (as it's not quite the opportune time for a pop-up in the middle of an AR display) but to a target on the way, a guard on patrol, or other similar situations, faking the software would be a fast and brutally effective solution.
In combat, though, the user would not be so cooperative. Here, it would be more useful to break into the enemy's PAN and frag up what you can, concentrating less on decimating the enemy and more on making it so that they're not effective combatants. Even AR spam can get a guard killed in combat if it takes up enough of their vision. Other attacks, like switching on a gun's safety or blaring punk rock through a pair of cyberears, can sow confusion and panic and make the enemy deader then Dunkelzahn. These effects can be achieved in the same way (by spoofing certificates and pretending to be legit sources) or by more direct routes, like bruteforcing (the subtle art of using a program to try every password possible) or Denial of Service (giving the target so much data to process that it's overwhelmed and fails).
A commlink would probably be the easiest thing to target for most types of attack, as it has more functions (read: more holes to exploit), and is constantly connected to the outside, even in hidden mode, as hidden mode does not shut off the wireless capability as evidenced by the fact that they remain remotely hackable. A firewall would help (most of its job is analyzing packets and keeping out malicious ones), as would anti-malware software and everything else that's used today. Most of these can be exploited today (Software firewalls can be taken out with the beautifully-named WAFFle attack, not that I'm saying that for any reason but to inform you all that WAFFle is a technical term in the world of computer security) and it can be safely assumed that it's the same in Shadowrun, since hackers do it every day. When talking about hacking, however, it is not only important whether something is hacked, but how, and to what extent. A skilled hacker can use one small exploit and proceed to use it to crack different things, peeling away the layers of security until he has complete control. However, that might not be the best course of action when time is on the line, so a hacker might find that using the limited exploit to achieve the result without cracking all of it. As far as I know, there is no simulation for this in Shadowrun, but a reasonable houserule to mimic it could be made. Halving the time while limiting the functionality somehow, the specifics aren't my strong suit.
Hacking more specialized hardware could be gone about in multiple ways. One of the more straightforward, perhaps counter-intuitively, would be hacking it through the commlink. Since the commlink is what generally dictates what the different components do (in the case that each component is slaved to the commlink, which is more convenient, but not more secure as some people in this thread seem to believe), hacking it gives the hacker absolute control over everything controlled by the commlink. This would also happen to include everything that is run through the commlink's operating system-- Everything that the AR display has control over (Probably the majority of PANs would be controlled by the commlink, since that would be the most convenient and simple to keep running), everything that the commlink does indirectly through other means (software updates for the other components is an example that comes to mind), and of course the commlink itself. Say a hacker finds a guy with his PAN run through his commlink. In modern-day terms, the commlink acts as the server, with each piece of tech acting as a separate host. The hacker beaks into the commlink, and opens a program that uses the commlink's access info to install fake updates on each host. This is possible because of simple convenience. Nobody wants to have a different username and password on everything they own, especially with things like cyberware, and even the few who use biometrics wouldn't want to have to swipe a fingerprint on everything they own just to get it running in the morning. As a result, cracking one device on the PAN basically cracks them all, and once the hacker gets into the commlink, everything else is as simple as clicking a button and waiting for confirmation.
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I would point out that in previous editions, the DNI was in fact a central router to which all neurally linked cyberware was attached.
This got kinda lost in the tech streamlining of 4th edition, though.
-k
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible". GMing isn't following the rules to the letter, it's using them as latticework to do what you think should happen to make the game fun for you and your players. A lot of this stuff should just be filed under "it's vauge and doesn't matter". If, as GM, you decide to change something, even something fundemental, because YOU think it should be that way that's is your perogative. I took a class with RPG god Tracy Hickman and this kind of stuff came up a lot. He said basically what I said just now. :D I love these discussions though.
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Well, myrddin, while I agree that having someone hack an arm, and then being able to make actual attacks with the cyberarm isn't feasible, there are plenty of ways a hacker could screw with the arm. Like turning it off (or putting it in diagnostic mode, if you prefer), and simple movements (open/close hand, straighten/contract arm, etc.). Or Editing the control software so that actions are inverted. Nice 'annoyance' routines, that can cause problems until they are fixed, but aren't an immediate, unavoidable death sentence. No 'stab yourself in the gut' or 'shoot the guy next to you'. That's still the realm of magic or manipulating what they see so they make poor choices.
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".
... What the hell, man? A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules? Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".
... What the hell, man? A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules? Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat. He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".
... What the hell, man? A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules? Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat. He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
thank you. and the killing him thing was sarcasm. I'm not a mean GM looking to nerf my players good time. the point I was trying to make was that arguing over the vaugness of rules hampers play at the table and in those situations I make a simple ruling and if a player THEN begins to rule laywer in lieu of trying to do something he considers "badass", whenin reality he's trying to buck and break the system to make himself shine over the others and "win" the game, I penalize him. This kind of thing may come from GMing a group of constant powergamers and Munchies. I like to roll fast and loose and ambigous rules be damned. I discard rules if they interfere with the fun of the game in the moment.
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[/quote]
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat. He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
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those things usually are discussed beforehand. unfortunately rule abuse does take place regardless. :)
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".
... What the hell, man? A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules? Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat. He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
Missing the turn because the GM suddenly decided your intended action was impossible IS beyond the pale - that's the GM's fault, not the player's, so there's no way in hell it should be made the player's problem. And wanting to do something that is normally rules-legal, only to find out that the GM has suddenly stripped out part of your combat capabilities while taking away a balancing element from another archetype and thus making them more powerful while making you weaker, is not "whining".
Myrdinn: This isn't rule-abuse. It's something that counterbalances extremely augmented characters - another part of their defense they need to pay attention to. There are problems that can happen when you remove it.
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ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".
... What the hell, man? A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules? Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat. He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
Missing the turn because the GM suddenly decided your intended action was impossible IS beyond the pale - that's the GM's fault, not the player's, so there's no way in hell it should be made the player's problem.
Yes, if done that way, it is inappropriate, and more importantly, rude. On the other hand, if the player is told that it is impossible, and given an opportunity to change their action, and they choose to try to do it anyway "because the rules say I can", then it is entirely appropriate to rule that their character attempts the action and fails automatically, thereby wasting their turn.
And wanting to do something that is normally rules-legal, only to find out that the GM has suddenly stripped out part of your combat capabilities while taking away a balancing element from another archetype and thus making them more powerful while making you weaker, is not "whining".
No, that is not whining. Whining about it, however, is whining.
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So let me see if I get this straight.
For anyone outside a system to influence their DNI, they need to have an implanted comm/simmodule, a datajack or wear trodes. This is basically used for usage of Linguasofts and other simstuff. If someone does not have such an access-point, they cannot access outside-systems with their brains, so no linguasoft benefits and such.
Now Cyberlimbs and any other active Cyberware, such as Wired Reflexes, are linked to the brain by neural systems. There is no way to hack that unless somehow you can hack someone's brain. The ware don't have to be connected to an internal commlink and they don't need to have their wireless on.
If you do connect them to that comm, or have wireless on, a hacker can use that commlink or the wireless at signal 0 (requiring a node nearby but then again any non-hidden commlinks nearby could already rout that signal) and then mess with it, such as deactivating things, taking over the limbs to attack the owner, etc.
If you still want a streetdoc to be able to access the wireless of the ware, you can disable it so it can be temporarily enabled through a specific encrypted code. Otherwise, they just have to cut you open and run a diagnostic test at a potential penalty depending on how hard it is to access the ware.
Is that about correct?
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Not the part about hacking an arm and making it attack the owner.
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Really? Because that is listed in Unwired as a possible example. Or do you mean most GMs wouldn't allow that since it demands too much finetuning the command so is unreasonable as an option unless it's a really well-written virus or a Sprite?
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Not the part about hacking an arm and making it attack the owner.
I've seen several people state that as fact, but none support it with an explanation.
Unwired 102:It would take too much space to provide an exhaustive list of possibilities, but here are a few examples (players and gamemasters are encouraged to be creative when devising other options—as always, the gamemaster has final say):
• Cybereyes can be shut down or crashed to make the target blind.
• Pre-recorded or self-created (using Computer + Edit) sounds could be played within hacked cy-
berears to make the target hear things.
• Incriminatingevidence(forexample,forgedsmartlinkfootage
of a shooting) could be downloaded into an implant’s memory,
framing the victim for a crime.
• The implant may be activated (for example, triggering foot an-
chor implants to keep someone from running away) or shut down
(turning an internal air tank off, to force them to breathe).
• The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges
(requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).
• Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or
even the cyberlimbed character.
Emphasis mine.
Now, yes, there are many defenses and requirements to get to that point, but if you do...they've got a serious problem.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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There you go. I just wish someone had posted that earlier, since it was one of the earlier points of contention. Now the question is just whether ou can hack from DNI-enabled devices to other DNI-enabled devices via the DNI.
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By the way, those are possible examples. It would be reasonable that, giving how it takes time to learn how to use a cyberlimb, only a rigger who has experience with cyberlimbs can use the limb for that. Or a well-programmed virus, or a sprite.
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Or for all we know, the limb has a completely user-friendly internal interface... Maybe it has a super simple system, like internal commands that intuitively control it. We honestly just don't know. The arm could be wired exactly like a real arm, or the DNI-linked translator part could be converting your brain's muscle-movement signals into the command "punch 45 degrees down, 12 degrees right".
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Augmentation 32:
Unless otherwise stated, cyberware that is capable of being activated or deactivated can be done so with a mental impulse. This is because the cyberware has been connected to the user’s nervous system, so it can be used in the same way the user would move a finger or flex a muscle. Typically, when a cyberware device is installed, the user must spend some time adjusting to this new ability and will doubtlessly trigger the device accidentally a few times. Activating or deactivating cyberware is a Free Action.
It's extremely usage-friendly, but then again you're not jumped in so you basically have to simulate the brain signals.
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Augmentation 32:
Unless otherwise stated, cyberware that is capable of being activated or deactivated can be done so with a mental impulse. This is because the cyberware has been connected to the user’s nervous system, so it can be used in the same way the user would move a finger or flex a muscle. Typically, when a cyberware device is installed, the user must spend some time adjusting to this new ability and will doubtlessly trigger the device accidentally a few times. Activating or deactivating cyberware is a Free Action.
It's extremely usage-friendly, but then again you're not jumped in so you basically have to simulate the brain signals.
Why would they take a step backwards?
A cyberlimb has it's own control software.
The DNI converts neural impulses into a signal that the limb can use, but someone hacking into the limb is behind the DNI. They don't need neural input. They're in the limb. They own the limb. Neural input is a huge step backwards.
It's like saying, "If you hack a computer remotely, you have to simulate keyboard and mouse input!"
No. Just no. Once you're in, you control the limb directly, using it's own built-in software.
The full section I cited from Unwired (I'm not pasting in entire pages) doesn't say anything about needing pilot programs, simulated neural input, or anything else. To contradict the section I cited above, you'll have to provide some evidence from one of the books.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Good point. If they manage to get into the limb itself, it'd work. But that's if they get into the limb. If they get into your Sim-system and can only pass on mental commands to the limbs, it'd be a different tale and the best they could do is likely just turning it off.
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True, though I'd take dead cyber over dead meat any day!
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Whelp, they're making this interesting in 5e, with some gear having an increased bonus with wireless on over wireless off, the bonus being higher if the risk is greater.
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What are some reasons some one would even bother having wireless on in there cyberware.
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What are some reasons some one would even bother having wireless on in there cyberware.
Enhanced functionality, such as getting diagnostic reports, etc. But since cyberware is pretty much always slaved to the PAN, it still means hacking the PAN and going in from there is still the easiest way to go.
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Their signal is so bad anyway it would take a microdrone to tap it just to hack the limb directly.
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Technically the cyberware is connected to your brains. Only some cyberware would require slaving to your PAN. Wired Reflexes and Cyberlimbs can be controlled purely with the mind.
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"Mungo'z inn yur brainz." "Haxxorzing his Cybernetics?" "Noo. I haz knifey."
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I see mungo took a surgeon webinar as well.
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"Corry-Spund-tense Curse. Bies da e-mailz."
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Technically the cyberware is connected to your brains. Only some cyberware would require slaving to your PAN. Wired Reflexes and Cyberlimbs can be controlled purely with the mind.
Yeah, but if you're worried about hacking, you slave it to your private PAN, and harden that as a target.
Then they can use whatever they want, microdrones or no, and they've gotta pwn the PAN to get anywhere.
This is why you should have two PANs, minimum. A Public PAN, so you can see AROs and communicate with the outside world, and a private, offline PAN, for your cyber and gear. Maybe a 3rd PAN for Tacnets (you can still use your sensors, as they're slaved to your private PAN for admin rights, and can't be controlled from your Tacnet PAN).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Technically the cyberware is connected to your brains. Only some cyberware would require slaving to your PAN. Wired Reflexes and Cyberlimbs can be controlled purely with the mind.
Yeah, but if you're worried about hacking, you slave it to your private PAN, and harden that as a target.
Then they can use whatever they want, microdrones or no, and they've gotta pwn the PAN to get anywhere.
This is why you should have two PANs, minimum. A Public PAN, so you can see AROs and communicate with the outside world, and a private, offline PAN, for your cyber and gear. Maybe a 3rd PAN for Tacnets (you can still use your sensors, as they're slaved to your private PAN for admin rights, and can't be controlled from your Tacnet PAN).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
And that, in turn, is why they're doing the whole wireless bonus thing in SR5
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That's not really a "why" unto itself.
What in the above scenario is negative behavior that a wireless bonus is meant to discourage?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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The point is that as it stands, that "perfect defense" costs nothing.
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The TacNet PAN can be hacked and won't offer bonuses to your perception and attacks unless it's wired to your Image Link. Sure, they can't get into your smartguns, but everything that requires communication is vulnerable.
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The point is that as it stands, that "perfect defense" costs nothing.
Why should shutting off wifi cost anything?
I shut down the wifi and cellular data connection on my phone all the time.
The defenses described above do have a cost. You need to set up different networks, and they cannot be interconnected. That has a cost in money, effort, and usability.
Why should equipment physically on my person be wireless? Especially mission critical gear? Forcing it to be so, simply to make it vulnerable, is...well...idiotic.
"My frakking Cyberarm got hacked, again! Took out half my team. Again. Explain to me why the freak this thing even has wireless?"
"Uhm...so it can be hacked."
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Because shutting down wireless is an extremely strong defense against hackers - if they want hackers to be able to hack in combat (which it's been made clear that they do), a defense that strong has to come at some kind of price. It's a game thing - your arm doesn't HAVE to be wireless, but it looks like there will be a positive reason to have it be so.
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Given the established rules where cyberlimbs are controlled through mental command, rather than through wifi, it'd be silly if they were to even add bonuses to cyberlimbs if they run wireless. However, anything that tries to actually involve itself in communications oughta be vulnerable. Eyes that send data to a storage facility which suddenly share the data with your enemies, a smart safety feature considering your teammates enemies or that one hostile a friend, a linguasoft hacked so suddenly you call a Yakuza boss a son of a prostitute.
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Because shutting down wireless is an extremely strong defense against hackers - if they want hackers to be able to hack in combat (which it's been made clear that they do), a defense that strong has to come at some kind of price. It's a game thing - your arm doesn't HAVE to be wireless, but it looks like there will be a positive reason to have it be so.
So, I can be an Adept and be totally immune to teh H4x0rz, but a Street Samurai with the same stats has to be vulnerable for game balance reasons?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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What, you're not going to be using ANY tech as an adept? I consider that unlikely.
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Probably nothing mission critical.
Certainly nothing that could be used to kill me.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Not what it would be sued for in the first place.
Now, making you think that the enemy you're going after is 3 metres to the left of his actual position...
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???
How is a Hacker gonna do that to an Adept?
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Unless you're running blind on a mission, chances are you have something that can be hacked. If TacNet still gives those bonus-dice in SR5, there's a decent chance your teammates want you to run it not just for yourself but also because it gives them an extra die, like they would in SR4. So you got hackable stuff most likely, but nothing life-threatening.
Now if you're purely using the comm for talking, the hacker can only whisper in your ears.
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???
How is a Hacker gonna do that to an Adept?
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Through whatever device you're using for your image link?
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Tacnets can already be hacked.
So can whatever is running my Image Link, unless I shut off my wifi.
But my gear, on my person, that doesn't need to talk to anyone else, I'd shut down the freaking wifi even if I had to do it with wire cutters. My cyber hand doesn't need to talk to Facebook.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Two things:
- Hacking actions will be available that can be completed in a combat timescale
- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.
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- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.
Not having to admit to your chummers that MUNGO of all people screwed up your last 'run being one of them.
'Cause, you know he's going to post that all over the Matrix and you'll have to admit it. ;D
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Two things:
- Hacking actions will be available that can be completed in a combat timescale
- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.
There are already positive reasons.
I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.
But this thread is about SR4 and there is already an SR5 thread on the subject.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I shut down the wifi and cellular data connection on my phone all the time.
That's not even something you can do on all phones nowadays. I don't have a smartphone myself, but I've heard that the later-gen models of the iphone can't have the data connection shut off. Companies like having the control and not giving it to consumers - I see that being more the case in Shadowrun than today, not less.
I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.
Street sams aren't innately useless - the core books already say that many keep Command programs with them to counter hacking attempts messing with their drones, vehicles, or cyberware, and anybody not running a decent firewall and Analyze is probably asking for it if you're going into a situation that might involve hackers.
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I shut down the wifi and cellular data connection on my phone all the time.
That's not even something you can do on all phones nowadays. I don't have a smartphone myself, but I've heard that the later-gen models of the iphone can't have the data connection shut off. Companies like having the control and not giving it to consumers - I see that being more the case in Shadowrun than today, not less.
I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.
Street sams aren't innately useless - the core books already say that many keep Command programs with them to counter hacking attempts messing with their drones, vehicles, or cyberware, and anybody not running a decent firewall and Analyze is probably asking for it if you're going into a situation that might involve hackers.
Shadowrunners aren't your average consumer.
If a Runner goes into a secure facility emitting signals because he can't shut down the wifi on his iPhone (or cyber) then he's probably in a lot of trouble.
Let's analyze how THAT is going to go down:
First, the average Street Samurai is probably going to alert an expert system or Spider before he even enters the facility. He is a walking bundle of dangerous chrome and smart weapons. If all of these things are insisting on broadcasting, he's going to show up like a technicolor T-Rex before he even gets physically onto the target facility.
Even if you say "No, it's okay, we'll just encrypt our signals!" it doesn't fly, because then you're a big loud beacon of encrypted traffic that won't answer questions like "Who/and or what are you and why are you entering a restricted area?"
You can't "hide" the wireless signals, either, short of jamming, which is a lot like trying to sneak up on someone by masking your footsteps with an airhorn.
Now, you could say "No no, it's really fine, because I'll just turn down the signal until it's too weak to raise any suspicion" - but then, if the signal doesn't extend beyond your person, why in the name of Walter Miller's ghost are you not just wiring your stuff together to begin with?
So, your unfriendly neighborhood Spider now knows you're there, and you're relying on your Command programs and Firewall to save you from having your gear pwnz0rd (which would be bad, because there is now a heavily armed response team en route to your exact location). Are you suggesting that a Street Samurai with a decent Firewall and Command programs is equal to the challenge of fending off a skilled Hacker?
If that is the case, then going to an always-emitting model doesn't address the "perfect defense" issue of simply shutting down your wireless. If it is not the case, then the Street Samurai's weapons and his physical body are under attack from an assailant who could be jacked in from Hong Kong, and all he has to defend himself are the very things that he's losing control of.
So, yeah. If I'm a Decker, I want you to leave your wifi on.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Yeah, a Command program, a good Firewall, even IC will only slow a hacker down once they can connect to you. The only things that will actually stop a dedicated Hacker is stopping their icon with cyber combat or stopping them with a few good chunks of high velocity lead.
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If you manage to detect you got a Hacker, however, you can reboot with a flick of the switch, kicking out the hacker. If the reboot also clears out all new admin accounts, then that'd mean they can start again. Which in SR4 takes longer than SR5.
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If you manage to detect you got a Hacker, however, you can reboot with a flick of the switch, kicking out the hacker. If the reboot also clears out all new admin accounts, then that'd mean they can start again. Which in SR4 takes longer than SR5.
That's not very reassuring when the most likely way that a Street Samurai is going to "detect" a Hacker in his 'ware is noticing the muzzle of his own weapon pressed against his temple.
Even if he does detect, you now are rebooting yourself and your weapons while the enemy is aware of you and your location, quite possibly in the middle of a fight.
Where does it say rebooting purges new admin accounts? That doesn't even make sense. You have to reconfigure access rights to all devices on a reboot?
Best case scenario, you reboot and they start over...and then what? Keep rebooting? Rebooting is a stalling tactic, not a defense. Meanwhile, the Ugly Man is coming.
A non-Hacker has three defenses vs a skilled and determined Hacker. Another Hacker, turning off wireless, or going lo-tech.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I didn't say it said that. Hence the "if the reboot", it's a GM call on how much you can reset to 'factory' values and whether it'd cost the hacker his just-made account. Plus the idea is that with a good firewall and analyze you hopefully will spot the hacker before he can take over, meaning you can reboot to knock them out.
And your own gun shouldn't be on your own temple, given how you control the limb through mental commands, which aren't hackable. The worst they could do, if you have your comm connected to a simsystem, is turning the limb off. If they hack into the limb itself, because you're dumb enough to have its wireless on, then yes they can turn it against you.
If a Hacker gets into your communication-comm, you want to reboot to get them out. That reboot simply means you can hopefully keep talking with your teammates while flicking that switch every Combat Turn.
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I didn't say it said that. Hence the "if the reboot", it's a GM call on how much you can reset to 'factory' values and whether it'd cost the hacker his just-made account. Plus the idea is that with a good firewall and analyze you hopefully will spot the hacker before he can take over, meaning you can reboot to knock them out.
If they're bush league, maybe.
If they're good, your Firewall isn't stopping them. Does your team's Hacker say "Aw, man! They've got Analyze and a Firewall! Sorry, guys, I'm done. I can only crack totally defenseless systems."
If so, get a new Hacker.
And your own gun shouldn't be on your own temple, given how you control the limb through mental commands, which aren't hackable. The worst they could do, if you have your comm connected to a simsystem, is turning the limb off. If they hack into the limb itself, because you're dumb enough to have its wireless on, then yes they can turn it against you.[
Really? Because you, yourself, pointed out that isn't true, in this very thread:
Really? Because that is listed in Unwired as a possible example. Or do you mean most GMs wouldn't allow that since it demands too much finetuning the command so is unreasonable as an option unless it's a really well-written virus or a Sprite?
UW 102, in case you forgot where you read that.
If a Hacker gets into your communication-comm, you want to reboot to get them out. That reboot simply means you can hopefully keep talking with your teammates while flicking that switch every Combat Turn.
If you're rebooting every turn, your comms are down. If they're in your comms, you probably won't know it, without a Hacker of your own, and they'll listen in, or better yet, misdirect.
A Hacker is like a Mage. Fight fire with fire. Does your Street Adam try to take on Astral opponents? Then why leave your wifi on?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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And after that question of mine there was a debate on it and under what circumstances actually controlling it, rather than just turning it off, would be possible.
You leave your wireless on because otherwise you can't communicate with your teammates. And the only way you can clear those when hacked is with a reboot.
By the way, you don't need to stop them. What you want is a headsup, realizing something's wrong, so you know your communication channel's compromised.
Wait a sec... You actually agreed with me back then!
Good point. If they manage to get into the limb itself, it'd work. But that's if they get into the limb. If they get into your Sim-system and can only pass on mental commands to the limbs, it'd be a different tale and the best they could do is likely just turning it off.
True, though I'd take dead cyber over dead meat any day!
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I agreed that if they were just in your simrig, they couldn't control it. If they hack your PAN, and get into the 'ware, they can turn it against you.
Not the part about hacking an arm and making it attack the owner.
I've seen several people state that as fact, but none support it with an explanation.
Unwired 102:It would take too much space to provide an exhaustive list of possibilities, but here are a few examples (players and gamemasters are encouraged to be creative when devising other options—as always, the gamemaster has final say):
• Cybereyes can be shut down or crashed to make the target blind.
• Pre-recorded or self-created (using Computer + Edit) sounds could be played within hacked cy-
berears to make the target hear things.
• Incriminatingevidence(forexample,forgedsmartlinkfootage
of a shooting) could be downloaded into an implant’s memory,
framing the victim for a crime.
• The implant may be activated (for example, triggering foot an-
chor implants to keep someone from running away) or shut down
(turning an internal air tank off, to force them to breathe).
• The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges
(requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).
• Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or
even the cyberlimbed character.
Emphasis mine.
Now, yes, there are many defenses and requirements to get to that point, but if you do...they've got a serious problem.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
End of the day, a 'Runner should have three PANs (one to slave 'ware and gear to and keep offline, one in Hidden mode for comms/Tacnet, and one decoy) and a friendly Hacker. You can get by two PANs, but I'd never intentionally expose my weapons and 'ware to wireless.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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There's no need to slave Cyberlimbs though. They can simply use purely the mental connection.
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Yeah, this. Unless there's some sort of required level of interaction making a commlink connection necessary, I'm not linking anything to anything. Then I go to Joe's example of at least 2 commlinks.
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Same. My own concept has a cheap offline one for the PAN that employs skinlink for guns and glasses, a communication hidden one for subvocal microphone and earbuds, a high-rated offline one for running Linguasofts over the trodes and possibly a disposable fourth for en public.
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I know some folks that put their CommLink in a cyberlimb. That might not be a good idea as it gives a wireless gateway to DNI.
I had a group of Hacker Gangers that did that with their systems. The Technomancer had a Sprite rip through them like a thresher eating up winter wheat. Decided not to do THAT again.
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I guess I'm paranoid, but if they somehow get into your cyberware - wireless, microdrone, nanites, Van Eck phreaking, whatever - they can actually shut you out of your own DNI.
Most of my character's 'ware and gear has a reason to be connected to your PAN...for many of the same reasons that most of these devices have wireless (which I immediately disable, with wirecutters if necessary).
If you slave it all to your offline PAN hub, they have to hack that, which (unless you're a n00b) should be much more hardened as a target than just your basic limb.
Random thought. If a Technomancer physically touches your cybernetic limb, can they hack it? I'm low on coffee and can't remember the interface requirements for a Techno (never played one, personally - I can't do Emo. :P).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Joe: If a Technomancer takes the Skinlink echo, they can hack into systems they're touching.
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That's pretty badass.
Damn it! Now I need to roll a Techno.
I'll need some advice on being Emo-MallGoth.
I don't get the tight pants thing.
:P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty in touching someone's cyberlimbs if they're not restrained, the Skinlink echo means you can hack into wired systems at any place where their nodes are within reach. Chances are you can even use it to hack scannergates, and all this without having to break open the wall and jacking into the cables.
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Maybe that is where the Deckers got the idea for the new not-Cyberdecks that were described in the 5th edition preview. Some hot drek hacker saw their Street Sam chummer walking around with four or five 'links and thought, "I bet that would be faster in parallel..."