Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Parker on <03-21-13/1642:58>
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Yeah, I know. I'm going to get yelled at by the 'ole-timers' around this forum, but gotta ask. When is Catalyst going to push its own version of the 4th world, and if not...then at least tell us so we'll know already! Oy. :P And if it's something they want to keep quiet about for 5th Edition; then fine. But the suspense is annoying me! :(
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I can't see them putting out a whole game setting, like with Earthdawn, but some kind of History of the Fourth World would be cool.
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I can't see them putting out a whole game setting, like with Earthdawn, but some kind of History of the Fourth World would be cool.
I would like to see this myself.
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I can't see them putting out a whole game setting, like with Earthdawn, but some kind of History of the Fourth World would be cool.
I would like to see this myself.
Just to see how different they make it from the old FASA material, if nothing else. I'd thumb through it, but probably not buy it. The Horror angle is probably my least favorite thing in Shadowrun.
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I can't see them putting out a whole game setting, like with Earthdawn, but some kind of History of the Fourth World would be cool.
I would like to see this myself.
Just to see how different they make it from the old FASA material, if nothing else. I'd thumb through it, but probably not buy it. The Horror angle is probably my least favorite thing in Shadowrun.
See, it is the horror aspect, and all the rest of the magical elements, that separates Shadowrun from other Cyberpunk settings.
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I guess I disagree, there. The dragons and magic and fantasy races mixed with the normal cyberpunk tropes separated it from the other cyberpunk games enough for me. The Horrors were just cludging some Lovecraft onto it (well, that and getting people interested in Earthdawn, but that's another issue entirely) that to me was just dumb.
I like my Cthulu, don't get me wrong, but this is more peanut-butter-and-dog-vomit than peanut-butter-and-chocolate for me.
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It is a matter of depth, CZ. The depth of history when you talk about cycles of magic, and things that happened during the last cycle coming forward to affect this one adds a wealth to the setting that you just don't get in any other cyberpunk setting. Especially since it isn't slapped on like cheap DLC, but is woven into the backstory. You can't understand the politics of the Dragons and Immortal Elves unless you know about the Enemy that they both fear. You cannot understand why Dunkelzhan feels it is so important to put a bounty on blood mages in his will unless you know that blood magic can bring the Enemy here quicker. It is part and parcel of magic's influence that there are magical threats out there. To me, it is the difference between flatscreen and simsense.
To put it another way, let's look at something solely within the fantasy genre. The Hobbit is an enjoyable read, and there are some hints at the world beyond the story there, but all in all it is a fairly generic fantasy setting. Then you have the Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion, and all the other stories written in that universe, which take that fantasy setting, and turn it into an epic world. This is the difference that adding history, and epic threats beyond the ken of mere mortals, brings to the game.
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If I had my way, the Fourth World, the period 5,000 to 10,000 years before now, would certainly not look like medieval Europe.
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If I had my way, the Fourth World, the period 5,000 to 10,000 years before now, would certainly not look like medieval Europe.
It certainly SHOULDN'T, seeing as it's a few thousand years early for that...
As for the Horror angle, it's entirely possible to bring in a new notion for what the Enemy is if the connection to Earthdawn is being severed.
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You can have depth, politics, and all the other things you mentioned without needing the Eldritch Abominations That Will Consume Us All that the Horrors were. I'm not adverse to a backstory, Mirikon. I'm adverse to the way that FASA did it. To me, the Invae as the Enemy Without and Toxics and Blood Magic as the Enemy Within were enough.
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You can have depth, politics, and all the other things you mentioned without needing the Eldritch Abominations That Will Consume Us All that the Horrors were. I'm not adverse to a backstory, Mirikon. I'm adverse to the way that FASA did it. To me, the Invae as the Enemy Without and Toxics and Blood Magic as the Enemy Within were enough.
That does still leave the Enemy from the Harlequin modules - and they're relevant to a few other events. Which means that excising them isn't tenable. However, replacing them would certainly work (and depending on who the properties are defined, might be required).
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We can finally have the elven holocaust!
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We can finally have the elven holocaust!
YOu just want to see Critias weep and hear his raspy sobs, don't you?
Or are we talking about a Holocaust caused by Elves?
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How about a Ghoulpocalypse?
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That does still leave the Enemy from the Harlequin modules - and they're relevant to a few other events. Which means that excising them isn't tenable. However, replacing them would certainly work (and depending on who the properties are defined, might be required).
Or it's just an enemy...of Ol' Painty Face, and he's getting suckers brave shadowrunners to take care of his light work, or at least distract his enemies so he can take them from another angle. I dunno, it's been a long time since I've taken the Harley adventures off my shelf and read them.
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We can finally have the elven holocaust!
YOu just want to see Critias weep and hear his raspy sobs, don't you?
Or are we talking about a Holocaust caused by Elves?
/whistles innocently
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That does still leave the Enemy from the Harlequin modules - and they're relevant to a few other events. Which means that excising them isn't tenable. However, replacing them would certainly work (and depending on who the properties are defined, might be required).
Or it's just an enemy...of Ol' Painty Face, and he's getting suckers brave shadowrunners to take care of his light work, or at least distract his enemies so he can take them from another angle. I dunno, it's been a long time since I've taken the Harley adventures off my shelf and read them.
That... really, REALLY cheapens an epic quest through the metaplanes with the fate of the world on the line. That's like turning the Arcology Shutdown into "It was all a dream."
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That does still leave the Enemy from the Harlequin modules - and they're relevant to a few other events. Which means that excising them isn't tenable. However, replacing them would certainly work (and depending on who the properties are defined, might be required).
Or it's just an enemy...of Ol' Painty Face, and he's getting suckers brave shadowrunners to take care of his light work, or at least distract his enemies so he can take them from another angle. I dunno, it's been a long time since I've taken the Harley adventures off my shelf and read them.
Which is... What's the word... Lame. There's way better things to do that don't go the Lovecraftian route. And given that the Enemy is also why the Big D offed himself...
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I never associated the Enemy with the whole Lovecraft angle. Demons and devils have been around way longer than Lovecraft's work.
Given that this is 20th anniversary year for Babylon 5 - Whatever happened to Mr. Darke? Is he still kicking around circa 2074?
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Indeed. The Horrors weren't Lovecraftian at all. In Lovecraft, the Old Ones don't seem to regard humans any more than, say, we do ants. There is no active malice (unless you go and disturb Cthulu during nap time), but most of the problems arise from the fact that humans can't wrap their heads around beings like the Old Ones, and go crazy at the sight.
The Horrors, on the other hand, are actively malicious, feeding on negative emotions like hatred, fear, and jealousy. They can cause people to go mad, but that's only because when you're tortured long enough, or badly enough, you may start to lose your senses. The Horrors are pure Evil.
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Man, I'd love to just write up a fictional explanation of the Horrors. Oh wait! I can, over in the Fiction section! I may start playing with that. :)
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Whatever happened to Mr. Darke? Is he still kicking around circa 2074?
Since Oscuro translates from Spanish to 'Dark', it is pretty obvious that Darke was the former leader of the blood mage faction. And, from all accounts, he made his play, failed, and died.
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I would like to see who the Enemy is, now, given that the devs are separating Earthdawn from Shadowrun.
Especially given the information in the Dragonheart Trilogy. I'm wondering who those guys will be, now?
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Sauron.
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Why Sauron? Just curious.
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I don't know. I've seen maybe half the first movie and read the first third of the Hobbit twenty years ago.
But why not?
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Heathen.
Actually, since the Enemy was introduced in the fiction and adventures prior to the two lines being split off, they can use Horrors pretty much as is. Of course, they aren't bound by anything that happened in Earthdawn after the split, but theoretically anything prior to could be considered canon. But for purposes of SR, they're best served as a mysterious big bad WAY down the road, unless some idiot does something stupid, which makes Runners have to go into the metaplanes for fun and games in order to stop them.
I mean, the only problems I could see are in the use of certain Named Horrors, but Names can change.
Though I would like to see Names and patterns be a thing again.
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Thing is, if they make them something new, they can have them be something that can actually be introduced to the game without massively changing the setting. They can change the rules about how they cross over to make it more compatible to a slower introduction. They can insert them anywhere, such as at the head of the Black Lodge (no, not the Penultimate Master, or whatever that title is - the term implies that there could be something above that). They can have them somehow be connected to both Resonance/Dissonance and Magic. They can redefine whatever they need to, really, which leaves a lot of options open that weren't before.
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The whole point of the Harlequin's Back adventure, and really, any time the Enemy is mentioned in the fiction, is that the coming of the Enemy is explicitly a "We're all fragged" kind of thing. That is why Dragons, Immortal Elves, and Invae would likely all team up to keep the Horrors from showing up early. It is the ENTIRE REASON Dunkelzhan blew himself up, to keep them from coming over early. Having them come over at all will be a major change to the setting.
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Right, but let's say (perhaps due to Harlequin's recent actions involving magic EXTRAORDINARILY similar to the Great Ghost Dance) a few of them manage to slip through before the bridge gets closed (perhaps due to a combined IE/Dragon effort, as both Ghostwalker and Harley are probably aware of this one). Further, let's assume for the moment that the Azzies are not their only servants - for example, the Black Lodge could be theirs. So, they get through, and we've got some sort of secret conflict (the Enemy doesn't want everyone to know about them yet, and if those in the know haven't explained things yet they probably won't until everything truly hits the fan). One one side, you've got the dragons, the IE's (probably including both Tirs), SK, and NeoNET. Perhaps the bugs. On the other, you've got the Azzies, the Black Lodge (who can probably subvert the power of a few nations, at the very least, for their own ends). If the Invae go to the first side, Ares probably reflexively positions against them without any understanding of events. Horizon positions against Aztechnology, again without knowing what's going on. The Japanacorps see odd behaviour out of some of the other megas and move to take advantage. That leaves Evo and Wuxing as unknowns, but there's probably going to be enough going on with Evo as it is. It could be a very interesting metaplot direction.
Have the bugs been established in SR material to be against the Enemy? After all, anything that's established in Earthdawn and not SR could change.
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In House of the Sun, the bugs come to Dirk Montgomery, and offer him anything he wants if he'll stop the Hawaiian-style Ghost Dance before it opens a door for the Horrors. They aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, natch, but because when the Horrors show up, they're on the menu, too.
As far as the Black Lodge goes, I don't think they're a Horror cult. If anything, I'd say they are the descendants of the Denairastas clan from Ioppos. Fits a lot better with their MO, and the Ultimate Master would then be the Outcast. And Denairastas would not aid the Horrors. He knows too well what they are. Black Lodge would likely remain out of it, unless it looked like the anti-Horror faction would lose without them.
The Bridge is already held against the Horrors. That's what Dunkelzhan's spirit has been doing since he blew himself up. And remember that SK and NeoNET aren't the only megas with dragon ties. Ryumyo has major influence with MCT through his Yakuza ties, and Lung's Triads run with Wuxing at times. EVO has Buttercup on the board, and she knows full well what the Horrors are. Horizon would oppose Aztechnology, as you said. Shiawase and Renraku would likely fall in with MCT, especially if someone makes it a 'pile on Aztechnology' thing. ESPECIALLY if Ryumyo has a chat with the Emperor and convinces him of the threat. That would get Shiawase in the camp, and Renraku would have to follow suit.
Which just leaves Ares. Given that the bugs likely won't make a public display of themselves (for all the obvious reasons) Ares will likely not side with Aztechnology against the rest of the Corporate Court, especially if someone can convince Knight that they might be able to gain power by carving the Azzies into tiny pieces.
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Okay, so bugs against the Enemy. The Black Lodge, though, can't really tie directly into Earthdawn anymore either - and a connection to the Enemy could do a lot to make sense of their strike against Lofwyr.
Also, given Buttercup's particular unusualness, it's hard to say precisely what she is, and thus where she falls - remember, she does have Conjuring skills including Binding.
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Buttercup may be unusual, but she's not twisted enough to be a Horror cultist. And the Black Lodge has plenty of reasons to try and undermine the dragons. If you want to rule the world, having an alpha predator over your head isn't a good thing. Wouldn't surprise me if some of the dragonslayer groups had gotten covert support from the Black Lodge.
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Right, but if it's not the Horrors and is instead something different, as Earthdawn material is no longer part of the same 'verse...