Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: viaRailGun on <04-08-13/1758:22>
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does anybody else agree that ruger's super warhawk is underrated? i mean, give it a couple mods and it's shootin 8DV at -3AP on SA mode! throw in some EX rounds, you've got yourself a close range gauss rifle! care to disagree?
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missed the bit about using high powered rounds..
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depends on the gm, but there is a lot of.... discussion about whether or not high powered chambering/rounds should be an "ammo mod" or stand alone.
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The Warhawk is the most potent non-high-powered pistol in the game, and with an ammunition selector you can have a gun which shreds drones (AV), kills foes dead (Ex-Ex), Shreds unarmoured animals peerlessly (Flachette), and more importantly can switch to whatever role is needed at a moment's notice. For a side arm, that is awesome.
As a primary weapon the Warhawk suffers the lack of range common to all pistols, along with a low ammunition capacity and poor reload time compared to most clip-fed weaponry. It's a great weapon, of that there is no doubt, but its place is a backup weapon that can deal with any situation for 1-2 shots, not as a primary firearm. Also, it's difficult to silence which is a major problem for most runners.
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personally i like the Eichiro Hatamoto II, 7p -1ap, for my one shot stop back up. loaded with ex-ex it can pretty much down anything you need it too. Hilarity ensues when you high power chamber it.
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My elven wheelman swears by the Super Warhawk (actually, the S&W version of a similar weapon). But he's usually hunting vehicles. He uses a pair of machine pistols for smaller targets.
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Our group likes to keep the Ruger as a spirit killer. Load it with APDS and mod it with the SA fire mode at it works pretty damn good.
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It's also nice because the low Availability means with a good fake license you can openly carry it when not on a run and not get too much hassle in most places, and the intimidation factor alone is enough to back down most gangers or drunks.
Even more entertaining on a Dwarf or Gnome, with mods to make it even bigger and scarier.
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Yeah, why do you think anyone would say it's underrated. I certainly haven't seen comments to the effect on the board.
As far as the rest... it really isn't worth modding too much. Especially if your table uses more of the black trenchcoat stye of occasionally ditching guns. Having a highly modified gun is an expensive luxury which can bite you if things like people start tracing your jobs by your ballistics.
Bolt an external smartgun onto one... or buy one internal (it's cheap enough). Don't bother with the action... one shot should be enough. Simply carry a second pistol! (two simple actions... fire left hand, fire right hand). Now you have 12 rounds loaded instead of 6 if you have a brace of the suckers. Now you have a cheap gun you can easily ditch and replace.
Or carry an ares predator and the revolver... you can fire the ares once and the revolver once without resorting to the firing two pistols in a single simple action split pool problems... (or you can if you want to fire the ares twice, and the hand cannon once). Especially nice since you can silence predator, and quickdraw the hand cannon if the necessity arises.
The reload time isn't that bad either... Agility 6 will fully reload it in a single combat turn... Even if lower... you often times can get away with just stuffing in say 4 new rounds and underloading the weapon without issue if you didn't invest in speed loaders.
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i like the "dump gun in dumpster" option. plus, something about it says gritty henry. i'm taking two, thanks peeps!
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
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My most heavily modified, intimidating looking and personalized guns aren't for running, they're for carrying during civilian life. My characters invariably live in really bad neighborhoods, so they need some protection.
There are two kinds of gear. Disposables and personal gear. It's the same concept with vehicles, weapons, almost anything. Sometimes you want a generic stolen car you can blow up at the scene when you are done, or a cheap gun you can throw in a dumpster. They may not be as effective as the top-of-the-line modded equipment that some Runners carry, but it is less traceable, and that is what matters.
On the other hand, the Rigger's tricked-out personalized uber-van, the Sniper's chameleon coated Barrett, the Hacker's 6/6/6/6 Commlink or the Adept's Weapon Focus katana, is not going to be discarded. If it has to be left behind, it could be an entire Run just to get it back (or find a replacement).
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
Now picture a group that doesn't even know that a "slide" exists.
That's what I have to deal with, Gun Nut. :'(
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
Now picture a group that doesn't even know that a "slide" exists.
That's what I have to deal with, Gun Nut. :'(
Maybe once your arm heals, you should go to the local firing range as a group some night.
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Maybe once your arm heals, you should go to the local firing range as a group some night.
*Looks outside and sees Canada*
Yeah, that's going to happen.
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Maybe once your arm heals, you should go to the local firing range as a group some night.
*Looks outside and sees Canada*
Yeah, that's going to happen.
<looks outside and sees Canada>
happened for me all Tuesday of last week. Sighted in a new laser dot on my .44 mag, played with the 8x scope on my 7x57. Blasted off a box of .357 mags. You can do a lot up here in Canada, just fill out your paperwork, take the safety course and keep your nose clean!
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any chum from vancouver?
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We've got 'em in Alberta, at least.
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any chum from vancouver?
Interior of BC here... but currently working out of Northern BC.
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
Careful.
Proper firearms terminology is dangerous ground, in these parts.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
Careful.
Proper firearms terminology is dangerous ground, in these parts.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
*Looks up from my Guns and Ammo "Clip"* Whafrag?
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My rigger has one gold plated with silver and black chasing.
If she has to dump it, it has a "property of Kenneth Brackhaven" inscription inside the slide.
;)
-k
It's a revolver. It doesn't have a slide. ???
Careful.
Proper firearms terminology is dangerous ground, in these parts.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
*Looks up from my Guns and Ammo "Clip"* Whafrag?
Exactly. For your submachine carbine.
:P
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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My apologies, I meant she had a blinged out Predator, not a Warhawk.
Was responding to Falconer.
I have, in fact, owned multiple firearms in the past. Hey, I lived in Texas. It was almost required by law.
-k
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personally, i want to picture the warhawk as being a blade runner's standard issue m2019c. instead, holding 5 shots to account for the space needed to house an internal smartlink system? a-haha, truly obsessed. all i can say is "that gun"(fallout's .223 pistol) belongs in SR!
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Dunno who underrates the Warhawk, it's an excellent weapon for what it is.
Sure it's near-impossible to make into a stealth weapon, and the range is naturally limited by being a pistol, but that's square pegging the round hole. If you want portable firepower that you can carry day-to-day without being bugged by johnny law or raising too many eyebrows, it's as good as it gets.
My hard-boiled Private Investigator/Runner loves his warhawks. Along with his silver engraved lighter and the fedora his partner gave him they're his signature items.
The ammunition seems limited, but only until you realize that those 6-8 shots from a 6P -2AP gun are doing the job of 9-12 shots from another heavy pistol or even 18-24 rounds in a burst firing light pistol.
It's inexpensive at 250 nuyen. That makes the base weapon effective for something you don't wince before tossing in a smelter or wiping down the handle and pressing it into a dead ganger's hand. Better yet that base price means mods that have (weapon cost) under cost much cheaper than say for a machine pistol or assault rifle or whatever that costs at minimum 2-3X the cost of a Warhawk. Give it a custom grip, internal smartgun, mod it for semi-auto, and expand the cylinder to 8 shots and you're still sitting under 1000 cred. Add in the fact that you're paying less for ammo since you're firing fewer shots, and don't require recoil compensating bits and pieces and you've got a very cost effective weapon even if you do decide to trick it out.
Against vehicles/drones/spirits you're better off with a Warhawk than anything short of a shotgun or heavy rifle, what with the various forms of hardened armor and/or immunity to stun damage. Yes I know about stick-n-shock, but that's something that many experienced DM's are quick to nerf, besides nothing stops you from loading up stickies like everyone else.
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I think it's actually one of the few guns that are accurately rated. It's a niche gun that is good at its niche.
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My apologies, I meant she had a blinged out Predator, not a Warhawk.
Was responding to Falconer.
I have, in fact, owned multiple firearms in the past. Hey, I lived in Texas. It was almost required by law.
-k
Aren't you in NY now? Where they ban anything as dangerous as Soda and up?
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honestly, i had this misconception. probably stemmed from it's use in Shadowrun for SEGA GENESIS. this idea has been left behind since immersing myself in the SR4 universe.
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You can even mod it to SA for only a single mod slot (and yes, SA revolvers do exist in reality).
edit: corrected a stupid typo
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You can even mod it to SA for only a single mod slot (and yes, SA pistols do exist in reality).
???
Was that ever really in doubt?
Double action revolvers have been around since the Crimean War..
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Pepperbox or bust!
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You can even mod it to SA for only a single mod slot (and yes, SA pistols do exist in reality).
???
Was that ever really in doubt?
Double action revolvers have been around since the Crimean War..
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
As a NOT A GUN PERSONTM, I was not aware of it until I researched it, and they are rare. I know there are other NOT A GUN PERSONTM's on the forums, so I thought I would mention it because I think it's neat.
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Question: Did you mean SA revolvers? Because I'm pretty sure most of us are used to seeing semi-automatic pistols in movies, at the very least.
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It's a niche gun that is good at its niche.
And when the gun's niche is "shooting things" it's a pretty good niche to fill.
As far as gun terminology goes technically double action revolvers aren't semi-automatic even though they both fire and readies the next round with each pull of the trigger. Then again most people don't care to get that A retentive regarding specifics of terminology.
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Okay.
To declutter this a bit, because the "NOT A GUN PEOPLE" are, I think, confused and there are two conversations going on.
The term "pistol" refers to a handgun with an integrated chamber and barrel, such as a "semi-automatic pistol" while "revolver" are refers to a gun with a revolving chamber.
Semi-automatic pistols and Double-Action revolvers both fire one bullet per trigger pull, without requiring you to manually cock the hammer each time. (SR just calls both "SA" even though it can cause confusion. Kind of like now.)
SA pistols and DA revolvers are very common. They are not rare, either one. The SA pistol has been around since the 1880s, and the DA revolver since 1851. They are, respectively, the 1st and 2nd most common types of handgun.
To be clear, my comments are for clarification purposes - I realize not everyone knows, or cares. But SR has always been willfully ignorant when it comes to firearms, despite the prominence of guns in the game, and that combined with a "NOT A GUN PERSON" can become awfully confusing when people use terms incorrectly.
TLDR: What you said was kind of puzzling, even if we take into account that what you said isn't what you meant.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Question: Did you mean SA revolvers? Because I'm pretty sure most of us are used to seeing semi-automatic pistols in movies, at the very least.
Yes, sorry. Semi-Automatic revolvers are what I meant.
And for the record, I don't mean Double-Action revolvers, I mean Semi-Automatic revolvers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver
Those are rare.
It appears that the Ruger Warhawk is Single Action, and the Cavalier Deputy is Double Action, does that sound right to everyone else?
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righto!
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Question: Did you mean SA revolvers? Because I'm pretty sure most of us are used to seeing semi-automatic pistols in movies, at the very least.
Yes, sorry. Semi-Automatic revolvers are what I meant.
And for the record, I don't mean Double-Action revolvers, I mean Semi-Automatic revolvers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver
Those are rare.
It appears that the Ruger Warhawk is Single Action, and the Cavalier Deputy is Double Action, does that sound right to everyone else?
Absolutely.
And yes, true SA revolvers are very rare.
I thought you meant Shadowrun SA, which for revolvers is almost always DAO, not actual SA. :P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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It's a niche gun that is good at its niche.
And when the gun's niche is "shooting things" it's a pretty good niche to fill.
The niche is somewhat narrower than that - shooting vehicles/drones. Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and/or Ruger Thunderbolt) are better general-purpose weapons.
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My apologies, I meant she had a blinged out Predator, not a Warhawk.
Was responding to Falconer.
I have, in fact, owned multiple firearms in the past. Hey, I lived in Texas. It was almost required by law.
-k
Aren't you in NY now? Where they ban anything as dangerous as Soda and up?
Yeah, had to sell off pretty much everything but the shotgun. Made me a very sad puppy.
-k
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It's a niche gun that is good at its niche.
And when the gun's niche is "shooting things" it's a pretty good niche to fill.
The niche is somewhat narrower than that - shooting vehicles/drones. Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and/or Ruger Thunderbolt) are better general-purpose weapons.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why you say that.
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Well, for the Fubuki, there's the fact that you can do BF at SA recoil. And as a light pistol, it is easy to conceal, and an integral sound suppressor and external smartgun system are dirt cheap. I usually toss on a personalized grip, so I don't have to worry about recoil, even if I don't use the folding stock. Using ExEx or SnS ammo, it makes for an excellent close quarters weapon for a face, mage, or covert ops specialist.
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The Thunderbolt, meanwhile, offers the same benefit, but with the damage and AP of a Heavy Pistol - and still makes it possible to achieve net-zero recoil.
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As Mirikon and RHat pointed out, if you aren't shooting a drone or vehicle, BF is better than the higher base damage of the Warhawk. Also, Stick-n-shock ammo in the Fubuki is very good against non-stun-immune targets.
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It's all about the right tool for the right job - in general, your "running silent" weapon is going to be different from your general purpose weapon, too.
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The Warhawk is a great gun to pull out and intimidate others when you don't want to pack a Shotgun. With a shortened barrel, it's not even that large a weapon to try and conceal, but still has the troll thumb-sized muzzle to point at someone like the FINGER OF DOOM!!!
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Now don't get me wrong, a Warhawk with APDS rounds is a thing of beauty for taking down vehicles, drones, and trolls. But against other things, I prefer weapons that either have burst fire or higher ammo capacities. Or I step past the 'pistol' level, and get into things like assault rifles and longarms. A Barrett 121 with APDS ammo is basically silent death.
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If you're gonna go big, go big.
A tactical nuke is very intimidating. :D
-k
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Just run around shouting waving a TV remote with the letters THOR spray painted on it.
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If you're gonna go big, go big.
A tactical nuke is very intimidating. :D
-k
In a motorcycle sidecar? Hooked up to your cybernetic biomonitor? ;D
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Just run around shouting waving a TV remote with the letters THOR spray painted on it.
Modify the Aesir satellite with Large Fire Selection Change to Full Auto and add High Velocity. There's your Suppressive Fire. :P
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Hack the remote to spoof commands to the satellite, then land it on the first guy who says that's a TV remote.
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I had a bit of time free at work today so I wrote down a couple of thoughts regarding the Fubuki versus the Warhawk and a bit on the Thunderbolt too.
Is there something I'm missing here that makes burst fire intrinsically better regardless of the relative damage/ap codes? Because, with the exception of stickies (read below), having a damage 6 and ap of -2 seems to me to be better than burst firing 4 (for +2 damage) with ap of 0.
[spoiler=TLDR Thoughts]I'm not going to pretend the Fubuki's a garbage weapon. It's top tier, but I don't think it's notably better than the Warhawk.
Damage: Sure burstfire means it's great when compared to other light pistols, but when compared to the Warhawk it's not so hot. Assuming the same type of ammo a burst fire only jumps the Fubuki's damage up by 2 points to 6, which is what the Warhawk gets without burst fire. But the Warhawk has a base AP of -2 while the fubuki's still sitting with its 0. Because burst fire doesn't count towards your ability to penetrate armor then you're looking at an effective 4 points over the Fubuki when it comes to things like spirits with hardened armor.
The exception, as always, is Stick-n-shock ammo. There's a reason why it's usually the first thing to get the nerf stick, along with emotitoys. It's called "why my holdout has a greater effect on most targets than your shotgun with exploding shells." When dealing with anything with a damage code of 6 or lower there's very little reason to use any other form of ammunition. Depending on how your GM deals with Stickies and the prevalence of non-conductivity armor mods the Fubuki is either more or less useful in comparison to the hawk when you include stickies.
Reloading: The Fubuki takes 4 complex actions to reload. One per muzzle loading. With fourty rounds you're probably not going to have to worry about it in the middle of combat, but you never know. Side note: does anyone think the pic of the fubuki looks awfully short for having 10 rounds stacked end to end in each barrel? The warhawk requires either an agility of 6-8 or a speedloader to reload in one complex action. They're both worse than a box mag weapon, but the hawk comes out on top in reloading. With the fubuki's better ammo capacity (13 bursts and 1 single shot) and the Wharhawk's better reload I'd call this a wash, especially since they're both more likely to be backup weapons or used in situations where you're only firing a few shots anyway.
Concealability: Fubuki wins there no question. At 0 mod the Warhawk isn't bad either.
Modifications: Quick note, because the Fubuki has an "unusual loading mechanism or exotic ammunition" it can't be modified for full auto. Other than that and the suppressor
Cost/availability: I don't think there's anyone who will argue that the Fubuki's cheaper. It's base cost is 8x the Warhawk. Your ammunition costs are 3x per trigger pull. Suppressors eventually have to be replaced. Mods that have the "weapon cost" in the code somewhere are 8(ish)x the cost of a Warhawk. If you go with the Fubuki and mod it a bit then it's going to be a big enough chunk of change that you'll be loath to toss it. I think the availability is quite a bit higher on the fubuki as well so it'll take longer to pick one up if you've got the need.
The Fubuki's range is marginally less than the Warhawk, marginally.
Added later: As for the Thunderbolt I'd say it's the best of most worlds. The only major weakness immediately obvious is very limited ammunition capacity for a weapon that can only burstfire without modification. Four trigger pulls before you need a reload. That's right, worse than a revolver. Extended Clip only gets you 3 more rounds but the Additional Clip mod will fix that for the most part (albeit costing you 2 mod slots and doubling the cost). The added bulk is offset by being able to mix ammo, making it almost as versatile as a warhawk with an ammo skip.
It'll definitely put out better damage than the Warhawk since you're starting with the Heavy Pistol damage code rather than a light pistol. Negating the 5ish recoil is harder because a heavy pistol can't take alot of the mods of a SMG or machine pistol. Electronic firing or custom grip, folding stock, and underbarrel weight seem to be the only options available on a quick scan. Ammunition problems and negating the recoil is going to take up most of your mod slots and plenty of money, limiting your ability to experiment and personalize, but at least it won't wind up as expensive as the Fubuki.
Image:
Warhawk: Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? "It's big. Non-regulation big. On cold nights you can fill the barrel with hot water and have yerself a bath."
Fubuki: Sleek smexy futuristic gun for the high class runner with big bank and no need to hide the fact.
Thunderbolt: "Dead or alive, you're coming with me." Sort of a midway point between the two in terms of technology/flash. You might loose points for using a "cop's" gun, or you might gain points depending on exactly how you got it.
Winner? You decide.
[/spoiler]
If you need intimidation, make it a more personal statement than a nuke or a big gun. A cheese grater covered in blood and with bone splinters stuck in the teeth. You don't even have to brandish it or make a big deal, just hang it off the hip and let people's imaginations do the work for you. Just try saying "cheese grater to the forehead" without wincing.
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You're forgetting some key points that add to the usefulness of the weapon, Spatula. Namely, firing modes, stealth, and ammo capacity.
Firing modes: Let's look at that comparison you made before. 6P, -2 AP for the Warhawk, right? Compare that to 6P, +0 AP x2 for a Fubuki. Two defense tests to fail, two soak rolls to glitch. With a SS weapon, yeah, you get a bigger hole on that one shot. But BF allows you to do more damage, overall, even with a smaller gun. And then you get to SnS ammo. 6S(e), -half AP once, vs 8S(e), -half AP x2. Two defenses to fail, tow soaks to glitch, two "don't taze me, bro" rolls to deal with.
Stealth: It is much easier to suppress a a Fubuki. When you're going soft, keeping the weapon quiet is a good thing. Especially when you need to take down one guard, without alerting all his buddies that he's down. Take him down quick with two quiet short burts while he's unaware of you, rather than relying on a single shot from a very loud gun.
Ammo Capacity: I have never had to reload a Fubuki in the middle of a firefight. For mages, hackers, faces, and other such types, it really is an ideal weapon, unless you want to go with the shotgun. Yes, for the street sammy there are better options. But for a mage as something to use between manabolts? This thing is GOLD.
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"You're forgetting some key points that add to the usefulness of the weapon, Spatula. Namely, firing modes, stealth, and ammo capacity."
Actually I did cover all those points. Did you read the long winded bit under the spoiler tags? I think the only thing I didn't actually cover was giving the Warhawk the 1 slot 250 cred firing selection change to SA, but I figured that was a given.
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If you're gonna go big, go big.
A tactical nuke is very intimidating. :D
-k
In a motorcycle sidecar? Hooked up to your cybernetic biomonitor? ;D
"Poor Impulse Control"
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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You're forgetting some key points that add to the usefulness of the weapon, Spatula. Namely, firing modes, stealth, and ammo capacity.
Firing modes: Let's look at that comparison you made before. 6P, -2 AP for the Warhawk, right? Compare that to 6P, +0 AP x2 for a Fubuki. Two defense tests to fail, two soak rolls to glitch. With a SS weapon, yeah, you get a bigger hole on that one shot. But BF allows you to do more damage, overall, even with a smaller gun. And then you get to SnS ammo. 6S(e), -half AP once, vs 8S(e), -half AP x2. Two defenses to fail, tow soaks to glitch, two "don't taze me, bro" rolls to deal with.
Modding the Warhawk to SA makes it 550¥ and 4R. The Sakura is still 2000¥ and 10R.
Stealth: It is much easier to suppress a a Fubuki. When you're going soft, keeping the weapon quiet is a good thing. Especially when you need to take down one guard, without alerting all his buddies that he's down. Take him down quick with two quiet short burts while he's unaware of you, rather than relying on a single shot from a very loud gun.
Silencing the Warhawk is an expensive and illegal mod, and a pain in the ass. This is a situation where the Warhawk does not excel, but no one has ever claimed it is a stealth weapon.
I'll give you that it is easier to get a suppressor for a Sakura Fubuki, but you still need four of them, at 300¥ and 12F each.
Ammo Capacity: I have never had to reload a Fubuki in the middle of a firefight. For mages, hackers, faces, and other such types, it really is an ideal weapon, unless you want to go with the shotgun. Yes, for the street sammy there are better options. But for a mage as something to use between manabolts? This thing is GOLD.
Assuming you have the SA mod, you will need to reload a Warhawk every three rounds (four rounds with the 500¥/4R Increased Cylinder mod). With a speed loader, you can reload it in one complex action.
A Fubuki will need to be reloaded every six and a half rounds, and reloading requires four complex actions.
That means in a short firefight (three rounds), neither weapon will need to be reloaded.
In a medium length firefight (six rounds) a SA Warhawk will fire during four of them and reload during two of them, while the Fubuki will be able to fire every round, but it will be effectively empty at the end. If the Warhawk has an Increased Cylinder, it will be able to fire during five and only reload during one, and at the end it will still have six rounds in the cylinder in case something goes wrong.
In an extended firefight (ten rounds) the SA Warhawk will spend 8 rounds firing and two rounds reloading, and the Fubuki will run out of ammo on round 6, and spend the rest of the fight reloading.
Obviously the Sakura Fubuki is better at some things, but to say it is the superior weapon in general is simply not borne out by the facts.
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The Fubuki is what you replace the Thunderbolt with if circumstances call for a light pistol. Though, comparing an unmodified Fubuki to a modified Warhawk isn't a fair comparison.
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You guys are skipping the most important stat of all.
"How well does it go with this outfit?"
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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You need a Tiffani Needler then.
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The Fubuki is what you replace the Thunderbolt with if circumstances call for a light pistol. Though, comparing an unmodified Fubuki to a modified Warhawk isn't a fair comparison.
Exactly. The Fubuki is not uniformly better than the Warhawk.
The Thunderbolt is an overall better weapon than the Warhawk outside of the niche of vehicles/drones.
The Fubuki is a tradeoff compared to the Thunderbolt and it really depends mostly on how much Stick-n-shock is used and how much you care about concealability.
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The Fubuki is what you replace the Thunderbolt with if circumstances call for a light pistol. Though, comparing an unmodified Fubuki to a modified Warhawk isn't a fair comparison.
I would call it fair if the modified Warhawk is still just over 1/4 the price of the Fubuki. In a sense, I am treating the SA Warhawk as a complete weapon that just has one less mod slot that a "stock" model.
I will freely admit that an unmodified Warhawk has far fewer advantages over the Fubuki. It is a more specialized weapon than the SA version, and absolutely less effective, having half the rate of fire.
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The Fubuki is what you replace the Thunderbolt with if circumstances call for a light pistol. Though, comparing an unmodified Fubuki to a modified Warhawk isn't a fair comparison.
I would call it fair if the modified Warhawk is still just over 1/4 the price of the Fubuki. In a sense, I am treating the SA Warhawk as a complete weapon that just has one less mod slot that a "stock" model.
I will freely admit that an unmodified Warhawk has far fewer advantages over the Fubuki. It is a more specialized weapon than the SA version, and absolutely less effective, having half the rate of fire.
At that price, I don't really consider the difference in cost all that relevant, though - it's just too minor.
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Wouldn't the Ares Viper Slivergun heavy pistol be the best non-High Power pistol if used with AP Flechettes? 8P(f) with -3 AP mod? Plus it has BF.
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Wouldn't the Ares Viper Slivergun heavy pistol be the best non-High Power pistol if used with AP Flechettes? 8P(f) with -3 AP mod? Plus it has BF.
Another fine mess WAR! has gotten us into.
I said WAR! Huh! Good God, y'all!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing!
Say it again!
WAR!
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I actually like the idea of the Cavalier Sheriff. 8P/-4 with 5 rounds. With a called shot you'll injure even a Force-8 spirit with just a single nethit.
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If you want to talk about unmodified weapons then just buy two warhawks and use one in each hand. You get to fire twice an IP, double the ammo, and you're still spending 500 cred on the two guns while only taking a -2 on the second shot without (the unmodified fubuki takes a -1 if you haven't already spent an action unfolding the stock or knew ahead enough to unfold it before the shooting starts). Heck buy four of them and spend the extra 1000 on hiring a couple of thug bullet stoppers to wield the other two for you.
You can say a 2000 cred price tag is nothing but it is it's more expensive than most weapons short of sniper/heavy. In the core book there's nothing more expensive right up until you hit the Aug(ish) multi-weapons platform that starts out as an assault rifle. It's an entire month worth of food/rent/entertainment/utilities/etc for your average person in setting. I've got characters that have finished entire runs with 2000 or less credits worth of profit.
I like how everyone's poh pohing the warhawks ammo capacity without saying anything about the Thunderbolt having 12 shots for a gun that only fires short bursts. As I mentioned in my little analysis (hopefully some people read it) that's four trigger pulls. Extended Mag gets you 15 while with an Additional Clip modification that's only 18 rounds (75% for pistol sized weapons).
To keep the discussion going: If you want to talk about a fully modded out weapon what would you pick for the Fubuki?
For the Hawk there's a couple of ways to go.
The workhorse.
Firing mode Semi-auto (Natch)
Personalized Grip
Internal smartgun (cheaper than external due to low base cost)
Ammo skip system.
You can buy one of these for the exact same price as a thunderbolt with a Smartgun system and no mods, or two for slightly less than what a Fubuki with no mods and an external smartgun add on costs. You can mix in a specialty rounds if that's your thing, a couple of stickies, a couple of AV rounds, one tracker round and one capsule round filled with something nasty. Just practice your Vin Diesel growl.
The crazy horse
Firing mode: Large change- Full auto
Personalized grip
Expanded cylinder
External smartgun
If auto-fire is the be all end all then here you go. Sure you've only got one shot, but during that truncated full-auto you've got a medium machine gun in the palm of your hand. Recoil's gonna be a bit of a problem, but it's great fun for the Sam with a gyromount in his cyberarm. Since we're going crazy we might as well load those silly Armor Piercing Flechetts in the bugger too. So we're looking at one attack with 15P+ net hits versus impact armor with a -2ap mod and dealing with a modest 3 points of uncompensated recoil (barring strength/body or over-modification)... This is gonna get messy.
3500cred is a bit pricy but now that I've imagined this up my mostly insane ork street sam/doctor is probably going to throw money at people until he gets one.
Side note. Sadly the sliver gun can't fire APF ammo. If you read the entry it says it fires metal slivers that "count as" flechette ammo. Not sure exactly how the ammo works conceptually for that but my reading is that it can't use other types of ammo.
Chandra: The Deputy?
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The Sherriff is in GH2.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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The Sheriff also benefits from the Expanded Cylinder mod the most, and is my favourite revolver along with the deputy. Give it additional clip x2 and mod it to burst fire!
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The Sheriff also benefits from the Expanded Cylinder mod the most, and is my favourite revolver along with the deputy. Give it additional clip x2 and mod it to burst fire!
Using Bangkok Rules (http://youtu.be/ue8TvvYik74)?
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They call it the snake draw
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Wouldn't the Ares Viper Slivergun heavy pistol be the best non-High Power pistol if used with AP Flechettes? 8P(f) with -3 AP mod? Plus it has BF.
It got errata'd to be 8P(f)/+5, so it would be 8P(f)/+0 if your GM allows APF ammo with it (which is questionable - the Slivergun doesn't use flechettes, it uses wacky exotic ammo that has the same stats as flechettes).
It's not that great of a gun because it's difficult to get 5 RC on it. The Thunderbolt has 2 inherent RC. Also, Stick-n-shock or APDS ammo in the Ruger are generally better, depending what you are shooting at.
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The Sheriff also benefits from the Expanded Cylinder mod the most, and is my favourite revolver along with the deputy. Give it additional clip x2 and mod it to burst fire!
Using Bangkok Rules (http://youtu.be/ue8TvvYik74)?
It's HASS DELGATO!!!
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The Sheriff also benefits from the Expanded Cylinder mod the most, and is my favourite revolver along with the deputy. Give it additional clip x2 and mod it to burst fire!
How does it benefit "the most"? Are you giving it 8 shots, even though it only starts with 5? The mod increases a revolver from 6 to 8 shots. The equivalent increase in a 5 shot revolver would be 6.667 shots...I'd call it 7, and that's being generous, as when it comes to building a mechanism you can't round up with physical tolerances, only 6 "whole" bullets would fit.
And how do you put Additional "Clips" on a revolver? It doesn't use clips. (Of course, neither do most, if any, of the weapons in Shadowrun, but it doesn't use magazines, either.) Additional cylinders are possible, and has been done, but it is unwieldy, impractical, and would carry a much more punitive Concealment penalty, considering you wouldn't even be able to put the resulting abomination in a holster.
-Jn-
Ifrit Sophist
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Conceal? No, I actually thought about this one a while ago and decided to put it into shadowrun. It's essentially taking a left at weapons developement and making a revolver into a submachine gun, using clock springs to rotate the carousel that the 3 cylinders are mounted on, also wound into their own clock springs. So you get two 3 shot bursts and then the carousel rotates. I also made it break action with ejecting cylinders, 10 pounds of ammo never seemed like so little before!
And the mod brings the cylinder up to 8, the Sheriff is the first revolver I've seen, in a latter book especially to have only a capacity of 5. I don't think they were thinking that far ahead when they wrote the description, it just brings it up to 8. That's how chummer works it, I don't see why not.
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Conceal? No, I actually thought about this one a while ago and decided to put it into shadowrun. It's essentially taking a left at weapons developement and making a revolver into a submachine gun, using clock springs to rotate the carousel that the 3 cylinders are mounted on, also wound into their own clock springs. So you get two 3 shot bursts and then the carousel rotates. I also made it break action with ejecting cylinders, 10 pounds of ammo never seemed like so little before!
And the mod brings the cylinder up to 8, the Sheriff is the first revolver I've seen, in a latter book especially to have only a capacity of 5. I don't think they were thinking that far ahead when they wrote the description, it just brings it up to 8. That's how chummer works it, I don't see why not.
Barrens Specials also have a capacity of 5. Made by the same kind of people who would even think about using contraptions like that clock-punk abomination in an actual fight.
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Conceal? No, I actually thought about this one a while ago and decided to put it into shadowrun. It's essentially taking a left at weapons developement and making a revolver into a submachine gun, using clock springs to rotate the carousel that the 3 cylinders are mounted on, also wound into their own clock springs. So you get two 3 shot bursts and then the carousel rotates. I also made it break action with ejecting cylinders, 10 pounds of ammo never seemed like so little before!
And the mod brings the cylinder up to 8, the Sheriff is the first revolver I've seen, in a latter book especially to have only a capacity of 5. I don't think they were thinking that far ahead when they wrote the description, it just brings it up to 8. That's how chummer works it, I don't see why not.
Essentially this, but with "only" three cylinders?:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3QqO8EXd-II/TOzji5pUMuI/AAAAAAAA6VE/-DUQNgFK-xs/s1600/wtf.jpg)
The weight would help with recoil...though you'd need to be a Troll to use it one-handed.
My objection to the Increased Cylinder mod providing this weapon with eight shots is that you are getting three extra bullets for the price of two. If it were that easy, why doesn't it just have six to start with?
Either realism and/or game balance is why.
As I said above, a proportional increase would result in +1.667 round capacity. Depending where along the Realism, Evil GMtm and BT/PM sliders your table lies, it's reasonable to say either "You can only fit one complete additional round into the design" or "Aw, I am feeling generous, just round it up to two. That's what the mod pays for."
Three is getting something for nothing.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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A firearm like that sounds like something out of Borderlands.
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I'm rather fond of the design. If increased cylinder only brought it up to 6 for that case it'd be fine, even bursts. So wait, does that mean it brings the Deputy up to 9? or just 8, because unless I'm mistaken increased cylinder in chummer has always just brought it up to a flat 8.
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I'm rather fond of the design. If increased cylinder only brought it up to 6 for that case it'd be fine, even bursts. So wait, does that mean it brings the Deputy up to 9? or just 8, because unless I'm mistaken increased cylinder in chummer has always just brought it up to a flat 8.
I'm just going by what I would do as GM, which is to say that since the mod gives a 6 round cylinder a 1/3 increase, it gives all cylinders a 1/3 increase.
So the Deputy gets +2.33 rounds, which I would round to +2 for 9 total.
Great. Now I want a Ruger Vaquero. *sigh*
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Ruger Buccaneer.
Muzzle loading, stack fired, black powder, 5 cylinder revolver. 25 barrels, 100 rounds.
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Increased Cylinder says it turns the ammo from 6 to 8. Basically it's the Extended Clip of Cylinder-guns (+25% of 6, rounded up, means +2). If you expand it to include revolvers that don't use a 6-round cylinder, you can grab that +25%, rounded up, so 5->6.25->7.
Alternatives are "it always adds 2 rounds" and "it adds 8/6, rounded up", but I think it's just a different-named Extended Clip mod. As support for that explanation: Their stats are identical, aside from the Threshold. Same slot-space, same nuyen cost, same availability, they only raised the threshold because revolvers are special.
That means only a revolver with 9+ rounds would get +3 from this btw.