Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Lumen on <04-18-13/1835:29>
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I was just wondering how other GMs deal with players making nuyen between runs. With the Day Job quality I can understand (and it has a convenient chart) but I find that almost all of my players are trying to make an extra buck to pay the bills. I was thinking of rolling appropriate skill checks and maybe Hits*200 or 300, any thoughts?
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If they're doing that then your runs are not paying anywhere near enough. Multiply the pay of their runs by 5 or 6 at a minimum. Do this and they won't have to look for alternate means to make money (which they shouldn't be needing to).
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It's one thing if they just want some extra money, but if they're doing it to pay the bills, you're clearly not paying them enough.
Runners wouldn't work for less than they could make boosting cars.
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I would increase the money from the runs, but only a little bit, becareful of going to far the otherway. You might also up the challenge a bit at the same time, kind of a 'entering a new league' type thing.
Question, how are they earning money. Day jobs ok, but if the act of earning money is actually part of the character's personality then work with it. eg card shark, gang member, part-time fixer, etc
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You can also kind of trick them. If they go around looking for work on the side, have contacts start presenting them various moneymaking opportunities that are actually shadowruns. They'll get what they want, more money, and you'll have more excuses to send them on shadowruns.
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You can also kind of trick them. If they go around looking for work on the side, have contacts start presenting them various moneymaking opportunities that are actually shadowruns. They'll get what they want, more money, and you'll have more excuses to send them on shadowruns.
Which won't solve the problem of what's making them do this. The OP did use the term "to pay the bills", after all, and if they're stretching just to pay for their lifestyles then the nuyen based characters can't advance. It's something of a problem.
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Gotta echo everyone else here, unless that's a part of your whole campaign schtick - like, they have "secret lives" and keeping the two separate is part of the challenge - or some such, then something's wrong. Maybe they're just bad with money but, if you're not paying them enough to cover a comfortable lifestyle (low to medium), med-bills and ammo plus maybe a new Fake SIN or license now and then (i.e. cost of operations) plus a little on top for new toys every run, you need to pay them more.
Lot's of Runners have very marketable legit skills (Face, Hacker, Magician - even Sammies), why would they assume the risk to life, limb and jail time that Running brings if they don't reap a disproportionate reward? The answer is what you are finding - they wouldn't. And clocking in and out isn't terribly fun to RP.
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How much are you paying them for a typical run, and what level lifestyles are these characters at? Stretching to pay the bills while living the High or Luxury lifestyle is one thing. Stretching to afford a Low lifestyle is something completely different. If they aren't all on a high or luxury lifestyle, I'd up the pay for their gigs somewhat.
As for pulling side jobs, that depends on what the job is. Can you give us examples of the side jobs they're trying to do?
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Ok I misspoke. The first run each character made about 7500 nuyen and only two have high lifestyle, just for some perspective. I really don't think they were under paid and the run ended up being easier on them than expected.
I'd like to work with them like Black suggests but I also know my players and know they will try and get their hands on every last nuyen they can. Several of them have legitimate ways of making nuyen on the side I just want to make sure they don't get into the millions too quick.
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With Lifestyle and "operating expenses" combined, 7500 goes very rapidly. At least multiply that by 4 per run and then you'll be at what should be the bare minimum to pay--in order to ensure appropriate advancement for mundane characters.
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How much are you paying them for a typical run, and what level lifestyles are these characters at? Stretching to pay the bills while living the High or Luxury lifestyle is one thing. Stretching to afford a Low lifestyle is something completely different. If they aren't all on a high or luxury lifestyle, I'd up the pay for their gigs somewhat.
As for pulling side jobs, that depends on what the job is. Can you give us examples of the side jobs they're trying to do?
To give an example the rigger who has automotive mechanic and an appropriate tool shop making money fixing cars.
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The majority of drug dealers would make more money getting minimum wage jobs than selling drugs, soldiers get paid less than the manager of McDonalds, and 99% of all football players will never play a single down in the NFL, so play for free despite the cost of transport and medical.
Crime is not, by and large, a lucrative field.
The average successful Shadowrunner will pull in about 6000 a month. Those who engage in globe-trotting style campaigns where they're the best in the world will make closer to 40,000 a run, but only get three, maybe four runs a year. Rookie 'runners are lucky to pull 2400 a month, with a weekly run netting each about 600 Nuyen.
This is why you always want to have a good reason for your character to run the shadows ... most could live a normal life and make the same, or more, than doing what it is that they do ... deckers and magicians being the big ones who stand out. One of the thing sthat you should always ask players is "Why is your character doing this?" If it's "To get rich,", well, they're in for a rough time.
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With Lifestyle and "operating expenses" combined, 7500 goes very rapidly. At least multiply that by 4 per run and then you'll be at what should be the bare minimum to pay--in order to ensure appropriate advancement for mundane characters.
Disagree with that, Guns. Between 7500 and 10000 is a good measure, if you go by Missions standards. And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams. Awesome gunfight with an insect shaman trying to summon a queen? Edit your team's faces/voices out of the mix, and sell the footage to someone who'd love to have the content. Make another thousand or two that way. Day Job is a decent choice, especially when you need some extra nuyen. Hauling the bodies of your enemies (even if they're still breathing) to the organleggers can net you some nuyen, if you have a strong stomach. Selling the 'used' cyberware those guys aren't using anymore (being dead) also gets you some cred. If you have the looks and loose morals, you can always set up a side business as an escort. The list of possibilities goes on.
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And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams.
If for any reason it is ever necessary to do this, then pay per run is far too low.
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With Lifestyle and "operating expenses" combined, 7500 goes very rapidly. At least multiply that by 4 per run and then you'll be at what should be the bare minimum to pay--in order to ensure appropriate advancement for mundane characters.
Disagree with that, Guns. Between 7500 and 10000 is a good measure, if you go by Missions standards. And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams. Awesome gunfight with an insect shaman trying to summon a queen? Edit your team's faces/voices out of the mix, and sell the footage to someone who'd love to have the content. Make another thousand or two that way. Day Job is a decent choice, especially when you need some extra nuyen. Hauling the bodies of your enemies (even if they're still breathing) to the organleggers can net you some nuyen, if you have a strong stomach. Selling the 'used' cyberware those guys aren't using anymore (being dead) also gets you some cred. If you have the looks and loose morals, you can always set up a side business as an escort. The list of possibilities goes on.
I really like this. I would prefer my players use some imagination to earn extra nuyen than pay then exorbitant amounts for runs.
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I never liked the Missions pay scale. Unless you do a job every few days you really start hurting for money, especially if you are a nuyen heavy character. 10,000-20,000 per job is a good starting point IMO. Another good way to gauge it would be cover the most expensive players lifestyle costs in one run.
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And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams.
If for any reason it is ever necessary to do this, then pay per run is far too low.
No, Guns. Just no. It is always necessary to educate people about finding extra income. Especially when they come from other systems, like D&D, where killing a boss can net you some shiny new gear, and the city doesn't care where you got it because you killed the evil guys. 7500-10000 is a good level for a group doing 1-2 runs a month. With that, you can fix/replace some gear, and pay for a decent lifestyle. (And if you take the time to use the advanced lifestyle rules, a decent lifestyle is cheaper than you think.) Most (decent) runners would be in Low to Middle lifestyles. Those living the high life are the exception, not the rule. And if you go through tons of gear on a run, either you screwed up royally, or you're a bit too Pink Mohawk for your own good.
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And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams.
If for any reason it is ever necessary to do this, then pay per run is far too low.
No, Guns. Just no. It is always necessary to educate people about finding extra income. Especially when they come from other systems, like D&D, where killing a boss can net you some shiny new gear, and the city doesn't care where you got it because you killed the evil guys. 7500-10000 is a good level for a group doing 1-2 runs a month. With that, you can fix/replace some gear, and pay for a decent lifestyle. (And if you take the time to use the advanced lifestyle rules, a decent lifestyle is cheaper than you think.) Most (decent) runners would be in Low to Middle lifestyles. Those living the high life are the exception, not the rule. And if you go through tons of gear on a run, either you screwed up royally, or you're a bit too Pink Mohawk for your own good.
With your suggestion, the best one can hope for is paying for lifestyle and operating expenses like ammo, SINs and the like. It leaves zero room for advancement at a decent rate.
And for those who argue that those advancing primarily by karma won't advance as fast as those who do so primarily by cash, the "Cash for Karma" from SR3 (at a rate of 1000 nuyen for 1 karma point) provides the perfect solution.
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With Lifestyle and "operating expenses" combined, 7500 goes very rapidly. At least multiply that by 4 per run and then you'll be at what should be the bare minimum to pay--in order to ensure appropriate advancement for mundane characters.
Disagree with that, Guns. Between 7500 and 10000 is a good measure, if you go by Missions standards. And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams. Awesome gunfight with an insect shaman trying to summon a queen? Edit your team's faces/voices out of the mix, and sell the footage to someone who'd love to have the content. Make another thousand or two that way. Day Job is a decent choice, especially when you need some extra nuyen. Hauling the bodies of your enemies (even if they're still breathing) to the organleggers can net you some nuyen, if you have a strong stomach. Selling the 'used' cyberware those guys aren't using anymore (being dead) also gets you some cred. If you have the looks and loose morals, you can always set up a side business as an escort. The list of possibilities goes on.
Those numbers only work if the Karma rewards are about 3-4 per run, which also sounds pretty low to me. In general, to keep advancement balanced between character types, Karma and nuyen should be awarded in a 1:2500 ratio.
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If you don't have the nuyen to cover both your lifestyle and advancement, there are two choices open to you: find ways to get more nuyen (whether it is a job, a loan, whatever), and lower your lifestyle a bit. It is all about choices, and the consequences of those choices. I'll admit that when I play a street sammy or otherwise nuyen-intensive character, I rarely get above a Low lifestyle. That's the choice I make in order to keep my gear in order, and save up enough for some replacement ware when I want to upgrade.
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If you don't have the nuyen to cover both your lifestyle and advancement, there are two choices open to you: find ways to get more nuyen (whether it is a job, a loan, whatever), and lower your lifestyle a bit. It is all about choices, and the consequences of those choices. I'll admit that when I play a street sammy or otherwise nuyen-intensive character, I rarely get above a Low lifestyle. That's the choice I make in order to keep my gear in order, and save up enough for some replacement ware when I want to upgrade.
So, to you it's perfectly acceptable to force someone playing a Street Sam to stay at Low (or lower) in lifestyle if they want to advance their character? That is patently absurd and more than worthy of your phone book.
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There are viable Runner alternate revenue streams that aren't Day Job/Honest Work.
Random paydata in nodes, Ghoul Feed supplier, Rolling Go-Gangers for their rides, Warding the Geriactric Home, or Filling in PymridWatcher on what you've learned about Aztechnology.
Creativity should be rewarded both Karmically and Monetarily.
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It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.
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It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.
Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.
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It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.
Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.
And there's a difference between most shadowruns and outright wetwork, and you darn well know it, Guns. You don't get wetwork rates for low threat/difficulty gigs. Wetwork carries more inherent risk, and therefore more inherent monetary reward.
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The point still stands that setting run payments in such a manner that you're basically saying "stay below this line on lifestyle or you will not be able to advance" is more than worthy of your phone book.
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You set the pay based on the type and difficulty of the work. If people think they need more nuyen, and have the work history to prove they're ready to move to the next level, then they can start going for the next level. But it completely breaks immersion to believe that someone would be shelling out all that nuyen for a group that is more dysfunctional than a trid drama family. You earn your way to the next level not because you think you deserve to be there, or because you need money, but because you've proven yourself capable of doing the work, and doing it right. Everything else is based on player choices, and the consequences of those choices, which is why you should pay attention to your rep, take time to develop your contacts, and do the grunt work that it takes to step up to the next level.
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No. No. No. You set the pay in such a manner so that the characters can make whatever lifestyle the player wants for them (which will likely be whatever is purchased during creation), cover operating expenses and see advancement at a decent rate.
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The point still stands that setting run payments in such a manner that you're basically saying "stay below this line on lifestyle or you will not be able to advance" is more than worthy of your phone book.
No, its saying "You can't have your cake and eat it too. Choose wisely." You know, just like how people are in real life. You blow all your money living it up, and suddenly you don't have money for those things you actually need, or you find you can't keep up the payments on your lifestyle. You get to live it big, or you can save your cred for the new shiny you need to upgrade your abilities. It is in the worst Monty Haul tradition to say that you should be able to do both as a matter of course.
No. No. No. You set the pay in such a manner so that the characters can make whatever lifestyle the player wants for them (which will likely be whatever is purchased during creation), cover operating expenses and see advancement at a decent rate.
No, you don't. Greenhorns don't get sent on jobs that are for Big Damn Heroes. Level 1 Sorcerers don't fight the Great Wyrm Red Dragon. The kid who just got his superpowers doesn't take on Galactus. Same here. You prove that you can do the job, and you get better jobs. You show that you're a walking clusterfrag, and you get shit jobs. Shit jobs give you shit pay, higher risks of dying, or both. That's how it is. There's a reason why starting characters (with a few exceptions) start with 0 Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness. They're not Jackpointers. They're not even the cream of ShadowSEA. They are nobodies, until they've proved otherwise. Nobodies don't get to name their terms, and you don't base what jobs they're offered (and thus, what they're paid) based on what the players want, but on what their rep says they can handle.
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It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.
Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.
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It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.
Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.
Well, a person isn't going to pay more just because you have more people...
That being said, this is a game. As a GM, I tend to cater towards my player's needs. If they are looking for side jobs, they probably are not satisfied with the pay rates. You can either A) explain that new runners aren't going to make big money or B) just ay them more and make it challenging.
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To give an example the rigger who has automotive mechanic and an appropriate tool shop making money fixing cars.
The reason to try and get the PCs focused on doing Shadowruns isn't because the game is named that, but because shadowruns are generally more dramatic and exciting. I'm sure there's a fantastic GM out there that can make the day to day running of an auto repair business exciting, but this isn't your typical GM. You may want to consider using their legimate businesses as jumping points for runs. For example, offer the rigger an opportunity to increase his monthly income from the auto repair business by using his shadowrunner team to take out a local competitor.
What constitutes too high of payouts varies by group. The only real hard line is that in the course of the campaign you never want them to get to the point where they have nothing to look forward to and nothing to save for. Which is why it's a good idea to know how much they net each month after expenses and lifestyle. I was a cheap GM who purposely changed to higher payouts after suggestions from players. The GM has to be the safety valvle on things like too much wealth or too little risk, but there is also a give and take. I'd personally love to play in a lower pay campaign, but I might lose players to other game systems if I impose my preferences too often.
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It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.
Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.
No, it isn't. I'd make the D&D fighter save up the gold until he could purchase the sword, same as anyone else, or send him into some dungeons of incredible peril, where he might find a new sword that he likes better. Because that's what you do in D&D, you go and kill monsters, keep the stuff you like, and sell the rest. If he was too busy spending his gold on wenches and mead, then there really isn't any reason for me to help him out, is there? Choices have consequences.
You either live inside your means, or you find ways to extend your means. Otherwise, you're a step away from playing in god mode, and that's never fun for very long.
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It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.
Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.
No, it isn't. I'd make the D&D fighter save up the gold until he could purchase the sword, same as anyone else, or send him into some dungeons of incredible peril, where he might find a new sword that he likes better. Because that's what you do in D&D, you go and kill monsters, keep the stuff you like, and sell the rest. If he was too busy spending his gold on wenches and mead, then there really isn't any reason for me to help him out, is there? Choices have consequences.
You either live inside your means, or you find ways to extend your means. Otherwise, you're a step away from playing in god mode, and that's never fun for very long.
Scraping by isn't fun either. Trust me on that one. If I wanted to "scrape by" I wouldn't game; I would just stick with my real life.
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I work third shift at a gas station for minimum wage. You want to compare penis sizes next?
And living a Middle lifestyle isn't scraping by. Being a step away from Squatter lifestyle is scraping by. Choices have consequences. You remove the consequences (good or bad) and you unbalance your game quite a bit.
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For my games, the starting rate that runners make is somewhere between $5000-$8000 a run per runner, then modified by the Face's negotiation roll.
IF (and this is a big IF!!) the runners prove that they are capable, they will get a "big job" thrown their way that usually pays $10,000 to $15000 a runner.
As their reps improve, they will get the larger (and harder) missions with larger payouts.
As for Runners trying to make money on the side, there could be a number of reasons why they may be doing this. If they are from a D&D background, they are used to watching the coins stack up (literally!!) Sadly, Shadowrun's Economics can be hard for newer players to get their heads wrapped around.
For example, unless the runners have really good fake SINs (or real SINs), it is almost impossible for them to have "real" jobs, as the SIN is the first requirement to get and have a job (at least legally). Then there is the fact that most manual labour jobs are the lowest paid, especially for unskilled labourers, Even as a mechanic, your rigger would be lucky to be able to charge $20/hour! Not because he is a bad mechanic, but for the simple fact that those who would be coming to him (mostly other SINless) couldn't afford to pay more then that.... if they even owned a vehicle to be worked on!!! (after all, you need a SIN to get a driver's licence, or a back account, or to buy a car, etc, etc, etc).
I would talk to your players are see why they feel they need side jobs. It could be that they are trying to find out what their character's do in their off time, or trying to add personality to their characters. Or they could just feel they need the extra cash cause "they are now 3 runs in and don't have a +2 longsword."
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A comparison: Day Job level 2 and 3 pay ~30 nuyen per hour. A Mechanic costs 100, so 70 goes to the business and helps pay for quiet hours. A mechanic rigger has the advantage he doesn't need to share with a boss, but on the other side he also needs to pay off his investment by himself. A shop costs 5k, +rent each month. Even cheap we're talking the need at 50 nuyen/hour and 10 hours a week just to pay rent and earn back the investment in half a year or so. Mind you, at that point you're still half what a normal mechanic costs and likely score twice as many hits as the normal ones, so basically you're working at a quarter of the cost of a normal mechanic. Charging the same 100 is already fair given how you get the job done faster, even without rushing the job. "So you cost the same, but you get it done in half the time and are willing to pull longer shifts, and keep your mouth shut? Done deal."
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Could someone explain to me what the problem with giving "too much" nuyen per run is? We play this game for the excitement and the toys. No matter how much cash you toss their way, they'll spend it. I doubt they would get to a point where they yell at you for giving them more money than they can find use for. Hell, even if I was paid millions per run, I could spend it. I'd finally get that VTOL I wanted, and perhaps an aircraft carrier to store my ICBM stockpile... in case Norway decides to finally invade like I've always suspected(in-game).
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I agree with mtfeeney, can't give a player too much. There's always upgrades in Shadowrun.
With the mechanic shop since some people are so focused on "Realism!", how long do you think it would be before one of the syndicates comes along and starts charging for "protection"? The rigger can't always be there to guard his stuff and since he's being paid so little during runs that he has to run a mechanic shop on the side it probably means he lives there too. Guess what? When he can't pay the syndicate anymore he's going to lose all his nice toys once he's out one night, because he's barely getting by and can't afford a decent security system.
Having a side business is nice as a roleplay hook, but basically forcing the players to get one because they aren't making enough to stay afloat isn't a good thing. By no means am I discouraging players from looking for side jobs or other opportunities to make money, but they shouldn't have to scramble for every last nuyen.
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There are Monty Haul style games like that, mtfeeney. It is certainly a style of campaign that has been around for a long time, before Shadowrun even existed. However, that is essentially the same as playing in god mode. Whenever players can simply push the 'made of win' button, and be done, then it cheapens the game. Getting major gear, such as VTOL aircraft, should be the matter of a run or multiple runs, to either steal it, earn the cred to buy it, or to do something big enough that the plane is part of the payment. When players can, on a whim, pick up gear reaching hundreds of thousands of nuyen or more, then there is a problem, unless you're in a long-running campaign, where your players have risen to the level of people like Fastjack, Kane, or the other Jackpointers. In other words, you're street legends.
Part of this is a genre bias, of course. Someone who comes from the Fantasy genre, for instance, may expect to find a +2 sword when they go into that sixth-level dungeon as a matter of course. To them, killing everything that moves, taking their stuff, and selling what you can't use is second nature. Someone from the Superhero genre, where a playboy millionaire who dresses up in costume to fight crime at night isn't that uncommon, might not like the idea of being 'in the trenches', having to make choices about their lifestyle based on whether they want to save up for some new gear.
Cyberpunk, and by extension, Shadowrun, is not like that. The people who can get away with killing everyone and taking their stuff are few. The ones who can stay employed after gaining a reputation for wanton slaughter are even fewer. High rollers in the shadows are uncommon, to say the least. Why would someone who can just sit back and enjoy life without ever needing to actually 'work' engage in activity that is not only incredibly hazardous, but could risk their whole lifestyle if they're caught?
To put it another way, its like playing Super Mario Brothers (the original one), and having a star pop up every few seconds. Sure, it feels badass to get the star and go invincible until the power runs out. But that is because the star is rare, and so it makes you appreciate it more. If you were constantly in 'star mode', then the game would get old, real quick. Or perhaps you could compare it to the latest Tomb Raider game. By the end of the game, you have badass weapons, including a commando rifle with a silencer which you can use to make awesome finishers on your enemies. But the reason it feels so badass is because you earned it, traveling over the map without even a torch to start, gradually gaining new abilities and gear, and learning from countless deaths. Because you earned it, because you worked your ass off to get all those upgrades and skill points, it is special.
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"High rollers" may be uncommon, but the PCs should not be among the "average" among shadowrunners. Those should be relegated strictly to NPCs and the PCs should always be a cut (or three) above.
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They should be a cut above rookie runners, straight out of the gangs, certainly. But not above average. Not until they prove themselves. That's part of the problem I'm talking about. People want to start off being special. It cheapens things when you start off utter badass, and only move up from there. You start thinking that you gotta have better rewards because you want them, and don't understand why things don't work out that way all the time. Average is average because that's where the vast majority of people in the field are. You want to be exceptional, prove that you are exceptional, and do the work to get your rep up there.
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The PCs are not in the "vast majority". They are special because they are the 'heroes' of the game and should be treated as such.
If I pick up a novel and the protagonist turns out to be a "Joe Average" I'm going to give it away if it's paperback or sell it back to the bookstore if it's hardcover because the book is going to be boring as hell to read. The same thing applies to PCs in games.
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I honestly think there is no right answer to this philosophical question of whether to play a "heroic, high-powered campaign" or a "slow gradual growth from the roots to high power over a long amount of time".
Take Warhammer Fantasy 2nd edition and how gritty and crappy for new characters that was and compare to the new 3rd edition and how powerful and heroic even starter characters are.
It all boils down to the agreement between GM and players on what kind of campaign they want to play.
Me personally, we are getting 20k+ per job currently which is PLENTY. It allows us to think big and sideways in terms of creative problem solving. However, we are also faced with EPIC content like quantumbending doorways to anywhere, destroying fusion reactors in secret underground Shiawase bases, fighting Master Shedim etc. All in all, it's what we like and thus it's high risk - high reward.
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All in all, a good rule of thumb to follow is that if one member of the team gets so little from a run that he could steal a Westwind and sell it for 20% of it's price and get more money, the pay is too low.
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No, the pay should fit the risk and the job. And unless you're doing some of the crazy things Razhul mentioned, or globetrotting around the world, then most jobs aren't going to be like that. 10K, 1-3 times per month, is plenty for people to have a low-mid lifestyle (or more, if they choose to get a roommate) and still have plenty to save up for new shiny.
However, stealing cars is a perfectly acceptable 'side-line' for someone with the right skills.
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The characters could be at Middle on lifestyle working legitimately and not "shooting people in the face for money". If they are barely making such a lifestyle or only have a little bit left over for advancement, then there is no reason for them to continue.
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Yes, because most runners would make excellent wage-slaves. </sarcasm>
Seriously, though. Who goes into the shadows to make it rich? That may be a nice end goal, but unless you're a barrens rat with only a predator to your name, running isn't "big bucks". The people who are in the shadows are typically there because they were gangers or other criminals trying to step up, professionals who got kicked out of the sweet life for various reasons, second (or third) generation runners, or people who had their whole world turn upside down, and it dumped them straight into the shadows. For most people on the run, going back to their old life isn't much of an option, if it is an option at all.
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Runners are something special, the PCs even more so. The game revolves around them, who else is going to extract Dr. McGuffin from MCT and along the way stumble upon the technomancer experiments? The PCs or just some random group of NPCs? If it's the NPCs somethings up.
Mirikon, how much downtime do you have between runs? Do you have any as the characters lay low or are they always working? How many lifestyles or safehouses do they have? Those things are expensive and require money for upkeep. Adding sidejobs is nice but it should be for bonus money or toys not the main source of income for the runners, because once they start working at the mechanic shop or taco stand because it pays better than running they may as well be wage-slaves.
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Ok, so my game has been running now for two years, with a game every two weeks. Runs have varied at lot, some making the team hundreds of thousands, some being more personal or cluster frags and actually coming out nil or negative. In game time, the campaign has lasted six months and the runners have completed 12 jobs. Most of them have 100,000 Nuyen sitting in there personal accounts. Half also have close to hundred Kama unspent.
Occasional, like last night they may spend big to buy a new vehicle. Not often though.
Lifestyles eat some Nuyen, but not much. There hacker can forge workable new sins if required, they often boost cars for jobs, and they purchased so much ammo at character creation... Well, it will be awhile before they need new stuff.
But they still play, not because the characters need the Nuyen, not because they need the karma(ok, the magic users are big in karma, the street Sam has only ever boosted on skill group and that was that).
Because they are interested in there characters and where the story is heading for each of them. Let's call it story progress. It ain't Nuyen, it aint karma, but sometimes advancing your character isn't about new shinys or new powers, sometimes its about the character themselves.
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*slow clap*
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Mirikon, how much downtime do you have between runs? Do you have any as the characters lay low or are they always working? How many lifestyles or safehouses do they have? Those things are expensive and require money for upkeep. Adding sidejobs is nice but it should be for bonus money or toys not the main source of income for the runners, because once they start working at the mechanic shop or taco stand because it pays better than running they may as well be wage-slaves.
Depends on the run, and how public things got. A quiet job, with no fatalities and/or minimal collateral damage? No reason to really lay low, in my opinion, especially if they took the time to cover their tracks as they went. Something that devolves into a royal clusterfrag, with running gunbattles on the evening news? Get out of town for a few weeks, and take some jobs in another sprawl until the heat dies down, and some other runner team screws up to take the attention off you.
That's part of the 'earning it' bit I was talking about. Pulling off an extraction or datasteal without leaving behind a trail of bodies means you not only can work more often, but you get better quality, and better paying, work. Why would a Johnson spend tens of thousands on a runner team that is going to screw up that badly, when you can go to the barrens and pay a local gang 100 nuyen and a case of beer each to do the same thing? If he did, my first thought is "suicide run". Professionals get to work more often, or get better quality work.
But honestly, lifestyles don't take up that much nuyen. Especially if you take the time to use the improved lifestyle system in Runner's Companion (and Safehouses). For instance, if you take a few negative qualities on the lifestyle, you can have a pad where the individual sections are all Luxury or High, and still come in at 10K a month (5500/month if you have a roommate). Even better? Putting in that extra work not only helps establish the character in your head, but it gives the DM extra things to work from. I've had characters that had four separate lifestyles ranging from 20 to 0 LP, and the whole thing came out to just about what he'd get if he did one Mission a month. Everything beyond that was pure profit. But that character was also a mage, so I didn't have to worry about any other nuyen expenditures unless I needed medical attention.
On the other hand, I had one character who lived the high life for sure, but because they were an Alias TM, they spent a bunch of time spoofing their lifestyle. I've had other characters that were living in what was essentially Middle-to-High across the board, and the lifestyle came out to 7 LP, and the lifestyle was paid off (and then some) with her Day Job, which meant runs were pure profit (well, what didn't go to paying off her loans).
So I'll repeat myself: Live within your means, or find ways to stretch your means.
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There is an upper limit which applies to most groups, but there is also a huge middle ground between monty haul and scraping by. A friend of mine tried Gming us a couple times and allowed us to capture a military helicopter and later sell it for half price. (Modified to add, on the first shadowrun!) I didn't say anything at the table in order not to be a backseat GM, but it was a huge goof, not just in the mechanics of letting us sell the damn thing, but in creating such a huge cash infusion to newbie runners. It feels great for the players at first, but quickly gets stupid if it continues.
No one here is saying having a great storyline isn't top priority, at least as far as I've read so far. However, you can have that, and in addition higher payouts can create their own excitement, and that excitement can continue if you don't go full Monty Haul. I like a good blend of high payouts and high risk. My players don't enjoy high risk games as much as I do, but are more likely to put up with it with high payouts.
The higher paying corporate jobs can just dry up if the party act like morons. The corps need the runners, assuming they haven't proven themselves to be fools. And the runners need the corps, if the corps pay enough.
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Yeah, selling the modified military helicopter for half price could be considered "Monty Haul".
Paying 20k to 25k per runner per run is not at that level.
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How come nobody mentions what Emsquared always posits in these sort of situations? Your characters, as main characters, have skills. Why the hell would a hacker do runs if they could easily get a job making way, way more by getting a job in a corp. Or just working on their own doing entirely matrix-based crime that never would require them to lift a gun. Maybe you'll argue "They'd need a legit SIN to get such a job". Well, first off, that's entirely possible. Second, let's discuss a Face. You're telling me someone with 20 dice in every social skill would choose to work for chump change, living in a rundown apartment and fighting for their life when they could more easily get a high-paying job in a corporation by just talking their way up the ranks? Maybe they don't want to work. That's fine; they seduce some well-off suit and bam.
Your characters aren't doing manual labor for minimum wage. They are doing dangerous, life-threatening jobs that require teamwork, skill, bravery, and secrecy. They often work for people who have lots of money, as well, enough to consider paying strangers to do important jobs for them. I don't expect characters to start off getting such important jobs (everyone starts small). But it shouldn't take long. Once your characters have proven to be above your average ganger, their jobs should become better, both because players shouldn't be stuck feeling like their character's skills are being wasted, and because I honestly believe that's how shadowrunners are.
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How come nobody mentions what Emsquared always posits in these sort of situations? Your characters, as main characters, have skills. Why the hell would a hacker do runs if they could easily get a job making way, way more by getting a job in a corp. Or just working on their own doing entirely matrix-based crime that never would require them to lift a gun. Maybe you'll argue "They'd need a legit SIN to get such a job". Well, first off, that's entirely possible. Second, let's discuss a Face. You're telling me someone with 20 dice in every social skill would choose to work for chump change, living in a rundown apartment and fighting for their life when they could more easily get a high-paying job in a corporation by just talking their way up the ranks? Maybe they don't want to work. That's fine; they seduce some well-off suit and bam.
They are wanted for murder?
They banged the CEO's teenaged son/daughter and he wants them dead?
They are anti-social psychopaths?
They got tired of working 18hrs a day for someone else to get rich off their great ideas/work
They are Barrens scum, no matter how much soap they use?
They aren't willing to tow the company line, or follow company protocols?
They would rather shoot people in the face for money then smile and say "please don't touch the display"??
Your characters aren't doing manual labor for minimum wage. They are doing dangerous, life-threatening jobs that require teamwork, skill, bravery, and secrecy. They often work for people who have lots of money, as well, enough to consider paying strangers to do important jobs for them. I don't expect characters to start off getting such important jobs (everyone starts small). But it shouldn't take long. Once your characters have proven to be above your average ganger, their jobs should become better, both because players shouldn't be stuck feeling like their character's skills are being wasted, and because I honestly believe that's how shadowrunners are.
People to have lots of money are not in the habit of giving it away. They are usually the stingiest bastards you could ever meet! That's how they got their money after all... by screwing over everything and everyone for every dime they have.
Corporations are the same way. Except that they have "cost/profit projections" and "Analysis reports on projected earnings" and all that other crap that boils down to "the less you spend, the better you look to the 'man' above you".
Look at it this way; Ares gets wind of a new drone that Renraku is trying to develop that would put it in direct competition with their Steel Lynx drone. Ares crunches some numbers, and figures that if the drone is even only a modest success they stand to lose 5% of their sales. After Ares crunches the numbers, that 5% loss in sales means that they are going to lose $79,590 in profits (they save some due to less manufacturing, shipping, labour, etc). So they have several options. The First option is to decrease the costs of the Steel Lynx to below the projected MSRP of the new Renraku drone. This would result in a loss of only $32,845 IF their sales don't slip, and after several quarters, Renraku might be forced to shelf the drone as "non marketable".
Or, they could use their internal Hackers to hack into the Renraku design facility and sabotage the drone specs to drive up Renraku's costs, hoping to get them to abandon the drone as the costs for designing it mount. But if their hackers are discovered, they could be sued in the Corporate court for the additional costs incurred by Renraku.
Or, they could hire a team of shadowrunners to sabotage the drone specs and destroy any prototypes currently made. Of course, this option has some risks as well, as the Runners could download a copy of the specs for their own use before they sabotage the specs (thus leaving an option that Renraku could re-aquire the specs again). Or the shadowrunners could fail in their job and point the finger back to Ares. Or a host of other potential problems.
Now, they are only going to hire the runners if they can get a team that will do the job for $79,590 or LESS. If they paid more then that, then Ares was better off not doing anything as it would cost them less to just do nothing.
Not every run that Shadowrunners are involved in is a multi-million dollar run. Some of them can be quite small for returns (as the one I just posted above) to the sponsoring entity or group. Some have no monetary value and are simply done to deny or delay an other entity some perceived advantage.
And then there is the simple fact that this team of runners is not the only game in town. There are dozens of teams in every major city out there, and if the "going rate" is $7,000 a head, then demanding $20,000 a head just gets the team a reputation as being hard to deal with and more jobs dry up. (thus they make even LESS money!)
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A lot has been said about lifestyles here: so lets actually look at what the SR4a has to say about lifestyles:
[SR4A pgs 270-271 (underlining and Bolding by me, edited in parts)]
Even though it may sometimes seem that many Shadowrun characters live in a bar or a rundown squat, each character actually has a unique lifestyle. Lifestyle measures the quality of a character’s daily life and her living expenses, including shelter, food, entertainment, clothing and so on. It does not cover technical resources, weapons, magical equipment, professional hirelings, or other major but not personal items. The player and the gamemaster can also decide on other interesting details of the character’s lifestyle, with almost infinite variations..... <stuff>[/b....] A character living a Middle or higher lifestyle can support guests at a rate of 10 percent above her own cost of living per guest. A host can also keep a guest at a lower lifestyle than her own by paying 10 percent of the cost of the guest’s lifestyle. Characters may only buy one lifestyle. This lifestyle truly reflects the runner’s standard living circumstances. Additional living amenities such as hotel stays, workshops, safehouses, and so on are handled as separate costs. Likewise, while lifestyle accounts for the costs of maintaining a vehicle (or paying for other methods of transportation), it does not account for the cost of a vehicle itself—that must be purchased separately.
Note that last sentence, for some of these lifestyles that just doesn't seem to make sense, and I personally usually allow for a free car (and usually not the car that the player's want!) with some lifestyles. It should be noted however that this "free" car is NOT one that a rigger can trick out... this is a simple "daily life" vehicle and that is all (so a Rigger still has to by a car that he wants to include sensors, and armor and drone racks in)
[SR4A pgs 270-271 (underlining and Bolding by me, edited in parts)]
LUXURY
This lifestyle offers the best of everything: ritzy digs, lots of high-tech toys, the best food and drink, you name it. The character has a house- hold staff , maid service, or sophisticated drones to do the chores. She gets by in her massive mansion, snazzy condo, or the penthouse suite in a top hotel. Home security is top-of-the-line, with well-trained guards, astral security, and quick response times. Her home entertainment system is better than that in public theaters and accessible from anywhere in the home. She’s on the VIP list at several exclusive restaurants and clubs, both real and virtual. This is the life for the high-stakes winners in the world of Shadowrun: high-level executives, government big shots, Yakuza bigwigs, and the few shadowrunners who pull off the big scores (and live to spend their pay). Cost: 100,000¥ a month and up!
HIGH
A High lifestyle offers a roomy house or condo, good food, and the technology that makes life easy. The character may not have the same perks as the really big boys, but neither does she have as many people gunning for her. Her home is in a secure zone or protected by good, solid bribes to the local police contractor and gang boss. She has a housekeeping service or enough tech to take care of most chores. This is the life for the well-to-do on either side of the law: mid-level managers, senior Mob bosses, and the like. Cost: 10,000¥ a month
MIDDLE
The Middle lifestyle offers a nice house or condo with lots of comforts. Characters with this lifestyle sometimes eat nutrisoy as well as higher priced natural food, but at least the autocook has a full suite of flavor faucets. This is the lifestyle of ordinary successful wage-earners or criminals. Cost: 5,000¥ a month
LOW
With this lifestyle, the character has an apartment, and nobody is likely to bother her much if she keeps the door bolted. She can count on regular meals; the nutrisoy may not taste great, but at least it’s hot. Power and water are available during assigned rationing periods. Security depends on how regular the payments to the local street gang are. Factory workers, petty crooks, and other folks stuck in a rut, just starting out, or down on their luck tend to have Low lifestyles. Cost: 2,000¥ a month
SQUATTER
Life stinks for the squatter, and most of the time so does the character. She eats low-grade nutrisoy and yeast, adding flavors with an eyedropper. Her home is a squatted building, perhaps fixed up a bit, possibly even converted into barracks or divided into closet-sized rooms and shared with other squatters. Or maybe she just rents a coffin-sized sleep tank by the night. The only thing worse than the Squatter lifestyle is living on the streets. Cost: 500¥ a month
STREETS
The character lives on the streets—or in the sewers, steam tunnels, condemned buildings, or whatever temporary flop she can get. Food is wherever the character finds it, bathing is a thing of the past, and the character’s only security is what she creates for herself. This lifestyle is the bottom of the ladder, inhabited by down-and-outers of all stripes. Cost: Hey pal, life ain’t all bad. It’s free
So the OPs characters are earning enough to have a middle lifestyle and squirrel away an extra $2000-$2500 every run (or pay for ammo, and other expenditures) which is just right for a successful criminal (which the players are.. right???) that's not to bad considering that the idea is that all those other people out there (the NPCs) work just to maintain this lifestyle and maybe squirrel away an extra couple hundred a month for that vacation, or a new car every couple of years. This is by no way a bad place for even seasoned runners to be, and is probably MUCH better then most Barrens brats could ever dream of having!
At "High" Lifestyles, the players are on the same footing as the 'movers and shakers' of the criminal underworld... meaning, the very people who are providing the runners with jobs! If you are living a better lifestyle as the Senor Mob Boss trying to hire you to shake up some bozos.... why aren't YOU playing the part of the Fixer???? I mean really, this is where all Runners would LOVE to be, (and maybe they make it there for a short time) but the question remains that if you are living a High Lifestyle (Especially if you OWN one) why are you still in the game?? some other factor must be motivating you other then money,,, which renders the question of how high or low the pay is kind of moot doesn't it?
At a Luxury lifestyle.... yea, not going there, if your Runner is making regular payments on this lifestyle or expects to make regular payments, you are either looking for (or playing) a "monty-hall" campaign, are delusional, or very, Very, VERY seasoned (like in the 500 to 2000 karma range)
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They are wanted for murder?
They banged the CEO's teenaged son/daughter and he wants them dead?
They are anti-social psychopaths?
They got tired of working 18hrs a day for someone else to get rich off their great ideas/work
They are Barrens scum, no matter how much soap they use?
They aren't willing to tow the company line, or follow company protocols?
They would rather shoot people in the face for money then smile and say "please don't touch the display"??
That is most certainly not automatically true for every shadowrunner; and is in fact assumed to not be true for most. Your third point in particular makes no sense; you're saying they would prefer to work for even less money and do nothing with those "great ideas/work" while risking their life? Or are you saying they could use those while running... Thus making more money because of their exceptional ability (which was my point).
Not every run that Shadowrunners are involved in is a multi-million dollar run. Some of them can be quite small for returns (as the one I just posted above) to the sponsoring entity or group. Some have no monetary value and are simply done to deny or delay an other entity some perceived advantage.
And then there is the simple fact that this team of runners is not the only game in town. There are dozens of teams in every major city out there, and if the "going rate" is $7,000 a head, then demanding $20,000 a head just gets the team a reputation as being hard to deal with and more jobs dry up. (thus they make even LESS money!)
Things done to deny or delay another entity most definitely have a monetary value; coming from someone who just wrote about how it's all about profit, you should understand that the corp will think about how much money they could make by delaying another group and that will factor in to how much they will pay for it. I counter your arguement about your team not being the only game in town with the fact that again, the PCs are supposed to be special. I don't think they should start above everyone else, but they are supposed to rise above. The impression I get, though, is that everyone seems to feel that they are stuck working for peanuts forever!
Explain to me why the game is full of such expensive things like any Deltaware implants, high-end combat drones? Sure, NPCs can use them, but what about High and Luxury Lifestyles? Those are only for player characters (by which I mean, you will never need to use Lifestyle stats for an NPC, you don't need to charge them per month or determine their lifestyle benefits as you do for PCs; just be logical about what they have) and I haven't seen anyone even consider them to be ever possible to achieve. Paying for a High Lifestyle is 10,000¥ a month. I absolutely doubt it was written with the idea in mind that a character who had this would give up being able to purchase anything else. Luxury could have had its own section about being beyond stats for how impossible to reach it apparently is.
The list you quoted implies that runner should be able to reach those levels, though.
Also, 2500¥ a run is only enough for Middle if you're doing 3 runs a month, which is nuts. It also only leaves you with about 2000¥ each month after other expenses. That's a run every 10 days; how do you expect to get any downtime training done? Buying a Fake SIN at rating 4 is 4000¥ and is a 12 Threshold test with an interval of 2 days. Unless you're making the Face buy one for you, you may honestly fail to buy it in time. Even if you do, the Face won't have time to buy everything for everyone. And this is something you would begin play with; forget about trying to buy rarer things that you would actually want to save up for. How about this?
To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 134).
Assuming you have 5 Intuition and 3 skill, that's trying to get 6 hits with an 8 dice pool and an interval of 1 week. Heaven forbid your character tries to spend Karma, you'll starve and go homeless trying to become better at your job!
I'm sorry for sounding rude; I'm very irritated by this. You can start out on the bottom, but your characters shouldn't spend the majority of their careers next to penniless.
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Don't apologize, you didn't sound rude at all. You stated in a clear way why you see it the way you do. I agree with your view, too.
In my current group, we've earned MUCH more than the pocket change you guys have been discussing. In one run, we had to steal a load of a chemical lubricant. We not only stole it, we stole 2 loads of it... along with 2 tanker trucks. The total from the run and sell of 2 trucks was a bit under 50k. Did we say "Oh shit, now I can finally afford that piece of gear I wanted. The game is so boring now." Hell, I quickly spent it... and I'm the mage. The guy that needs less nuyen than the more implant-oriented characters. Seriously, if you gave me 5 million nuyen, I'd probably have it spent by the next session, assuming I made some amazing availability rolls... and then I'd have to wait for karma to catch up so I could bind some of those new foci. You would have to throw billions of Nuyen and Karma at a player for the game to get to the point where you're basically playing Oblivion in Godmode, i.e. pointless to keep playing.
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RE: Firebug (sorry, done enough quoting for today :P)
First, the OP said that his players got $7500 each for a single run. So in a single Run, they paid for their lifestyle AND banked $2500. If they do 2 runs a month that's actually $10,000 banked after paying for their middle class lifestyle. Not a bad pull in for runners just starting out.
I am not suggesting that the runners earn peanuts forever (in fact in an earlier post I tell you how much *I* start paying my players, and give you an idea on how it progresses), but there is a huge difference in what a crew with a Street rep of 3 can expect to earn, and what a crew with a street rep of 0 can expect to earn. As their reputations are earned, their pay goes up. But it doesn't go from peanuts to diamonds in 2 or 3 game sessions.
To give you an idea my players started off doing runs for around $5000 each. Yes these were small time runs for the mob, or private citizens, and the like. As they made a name for themselves, both the pay and the risk increased. By the end of campaign they had amassed about 750 Karma and the average pay was in the $65,000 range PER RUNNER. with 'high reward' jobs capping out at around $150,000 each. But by this time, they could handle some serious threats with just a little crying and pillow biting. They EARNED there way to those paydays, and got the satisfaction of watching their characters go from hiding from the landlord to owning multiple lifestyles in multiple cities. (and by owning, I mean paid out in full... the X100 way)
Next:
The Point I was trying to make is that there are hundreds of reasons why people run the shadows and wasn't trying to pigeon hole a FEW. there are some legit reasons why people can not conform to the wageslave role to society that has nothing to do with money. For them, running the shadows is the difference between life and death. And Corp life isn't available to everyone, no matter how good you walk, talk, shoot, sling, or hack. Heck even today, how many 'wasted' lives do you see everyday? how many homeless people do you pass by on your way to work? How many prostitutes do you see risking their lives to sell their bodies for less then what a minimum wage job could pay them? How many incredibly bright inner city kids are working low paying jobs when they have the potential to do and be more? Not all Homeless have mental disorders. Not all prostitutes are junkies. Not all inner city kids are gang bangers. Sometimes in life, people are dealt really shitty cards and have to make do with what they were dealt. It's sad, but also very true. when you boil your character down to just a bunch of random numbers and say "Hey, this guy could be a CEO of Ares! he should get paid that amount or just go work for them!!" you are doing yourself a disservice. It's YOUR character, why IS he running the shadows making less then what could in an office?? that's your job to tell me, not my job to tell you :P
Everything in the Corp world has a price tag to it, but the point I was trying to make is that Corporations will do Shadowruns for a variety of reasons, and not all of those reasons will net them millions of dollars. When they deny an other corporation something (lets say land), there is also no guarantee that they themselves will turn a bigger profit, they are simply denying the other Corp the opportunity to expand. (and MAYBE, preventing a hit to their bottom line down the road.... ) Shadowruns are not just the preview of Corporations. Anyone and everyone from Big-wig executives to housing communes could have the need for deniable assets. And not all can offer to pay six figure salaries. Heck, the runners to be offered a job by some middling level manager at a sewage plant to tail his boss for 3 weeks and find out any "bad habits" he's got so the middling manager guy can use it to get a promotion! Now, if that promotion is going to net him a $10k payraise, can he REALLY afford to pay out $250000 for the runners??? Does he even have $250k? Has he even SEEN 250k??? Just cause you are working for a Corp player, doesn't mean there is unlimited funds available.... Some things are only owrth paying out so much for....
And there is the other side of the argument. When the Runners get a call to a job, it's usually from a fixer.. that Fixer has run through his list of people that he knows and tried to match up the crew he thinks has the right skills for what the Johnson is looking for. If the Runners continually turn down the offers he lines up for them, why would he continue to risk his own rep for them??
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At the very heart of the matter is, PLAYERS want more for their characters based on a set numbers that they see. The GM has a value for pay VS risk that he is following based off the STORYLINE he has created. Since neither are seeing the same value, most arguments about "what the approperate" pay is for X runner is totally mute. In the end, the players have a choice, accept the baseline pay that the GM is offering, and trust in his story, or not play. The GM has a choice as well, he can alter his story to pay the runners more, or he can choose not to tell a story. Neither side wins unless they can come to some understanding in the middle....
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If ALL of the players have started with lifestyles at Low or less in creation, then by all means use those low pay-outs at first and increase later, but if even one has started with Middle or High at creation, then the pay should be higher. If a GM's storyline requires low pay-outs despite this, then he needs to rework the story.
If part of what you're basing pay-outs on is "realism", things also need to be reworked. "Realism" and Game Enjoyment are mutually exclusive, one must have one or the other, both is not possible.
"Realism" <--------------------|--------------------> Game Enjoyment
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While I love reading all the debate and valid points for each side it's gotten away from what I need. It was the first run and for a small time gang. The runs will increase in risk and pay as the party progresses but I would still like the option for them to make some extra cash during down times, especially during the first handful of games before they start making some real money running.
So what do you guys think of allowing appropriate skill tests to pay Hits x 200 nuyen?
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While I love reading all the debate and valid points for each side it's gotten away from what I need. It was the first run and for a small time gang. The runs will increase in risk and pay as the party progresses but I would still like the option for them to make some extra cash during down times, especially during the first handful of games before they start making some real money running.
So what do you guys think of allowing appropriate skill tests to pay Hits x 200 nuyen?
Skill Rating x 1000 would be better.
It still should not ever be necessary.
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I don't think it's necessary but my players want the option. Thanks for the input.
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What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.
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What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.
So you're proposing that if the guy has a 4 LOG and a 4 Automotive Mechanic skill he's looking at 2,666 dollars per week - on average - to not risk life and limb (that's 138K per year, btw).
If you're paying them 7500 per run, and there's 3 or 4 PCs, they're then making 2500 to 1875 per Run (which is what? 1 week to plan and execute, 1 week for cool-down?). That's 1250 to 937 per week doing what the game is supposed to be about... You're shortly gonna have a party of Shop owners, enjoy.
Assuming there's 4 Runners and they do 2 Runs a month, you'd have to pay them 21,333 per Run just to match that day job...
Criminy just pay them more to play the game normally.
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There's also the matter of paying rent on the space, buying the proper tools, etc. But you are right, that seems a bit high. Hits*500, then?
Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life. The only people who choose the shadows are the ones who see it as a step up from where they're at, or the ones who want the 'freedom' of being their own masters. Everyone else is thrown into it, because they don't have much choice.
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I would say look at the "day job" quality for your payouts for an honest job's pay. If you make earning money through a hits based system linked to a skill or group of skills, you run the risk of setting up even more debates with your players as you have seen here...
The other side of the coin is, if it's so easy for the characters to earn money with out the normal constraints (like needing a valid SIN, or license, or permits, etc) why didn't they just do that in the first place? While money shouldn't be the only reason why someone runs the shadows, as mentioned before, for some it IS the only option to make a living.
Also, unless you are looking at this as a spring board for mission ideas (as said earlier, the Mob comes by the mechanic's shop looking for protection money, etc), I wouldn't make the payouts for a day job all that rewarding, and use the time spent working against any time spent learning new skills or acquiring new gear.
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Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life.
Nah, not missing the point, just making a counter-point.
Why reward mundane activity like this in any worthwhile fashion? If the whole table finds it enjoyable, that's cool I guess, but it just baffles me how a GM could enjoy slogging through the "okay, let's all make our part-time job rolls" part of the session. I'd rather be exploring personal storylines in down-time or, heck, advance the campaign story arc even? Crazy, I know. I guess, we only play once a week for ~5 hrs, so maybe we tend to try and keep things moving more than others, just don't understand the point of this when you could just put whatever average pay is determined to be appropriate into their run pay and it'd be the same thing minus the lame and lost time.
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Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life.
Nah, not missing the point, just making a counter-point.
Why reward mundane activity like this in any worthwhile fashion? If the whole table finds it enjoyable, that's cool I guess, but it just baffles me how a GM could enjoy slogging through the "okay, let's all make our part-time job rolls" part of the session. I'd rather be exploring personal storylines in down-time or, heck, advance the campaign story arc even? Crazy, I know. I guess, we only play once a week for ~5 hrs, so maybe we tend to try and keep things moving more than others, just don't understand the point of this when you could just put whatever average pay is determined to be appropriate into their run pay and it'd be the same thing minus the lame and lost time.
And thus we have the reason why Day Job offers static pay.
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The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.
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The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.
There ARE other possible reasons why they might do something like this.
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The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.
There ARE other possible reasons why they might do something like this.
Possible, yes. Probable? No.
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Someone having a character concept that called for them to pursue additional means of making money is far from improbable, and is just one potential explanation.
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
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It's a game. We play it to have fun.
Ask the players why they are doing these work-a-day jobs. If it's because they enjoy it, then by all means keep on enjoying oil changes. If it's because they're not having fun due to a dearth of funds, you need to make the game fun. Make 'em earn it, of course, but you can earn good pay with any character - it's the GMs job to make sure of this (i.e. tailor the game to your players, challenge them, make it interesting, but let them play - not work), this premise of the "level of the job" is an entirely subjective premise and is not a part of any metric other than the one you make up at your table (which should be made up to fit your players). You can do million dollar jobs out of the gate if you want to (i.e. if that's the M.O. of the table), the only reason you should ever have your PCs doing oil changes is if they find it fun.
After 1 run (you did say you've only done 1 run, right?), they may just not have an idea of what's coming (and hopefully better things are coming) and are just feeling insecure for the moment (which is fine, for now), but if they persist in trying to earn money doing mundane jobs, I'm sorry - if there's 1 thing I hate, it's people telling people how to play the game - but chances are they aren't doing it for fun, or character development, and if they're not having fun why are you playing?
(I can't believe A4BG and I agree on something...)
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.
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Another option is to use the day-jobs to get something else then just nuyen. This of course depends on the type of day-job.
To give an example. I had an ex-combat biker who now ran the shadows (we played in Paris). her 'day'-job was a bit like what Dom Toretto did on 'The fast and the furious', having a garage that did tune-ups and at night racing with the bike. the GM never gave me loads of money from that, but after a while I had a lot of contacts in certain areas which could help me on my runs. And to keep the contact ratings up, I did from time to time some illegal mods (my garage was in an area where police normally didn't show, but I tuned the bikes of the local go-gang and in exchange they protected me). As all players had something like this, we would get our runs from time to time through the day-jobs (someone comes to my garage for an oil change and also because he heard from someone else that I can 'arrange' things).
Also, and this was particular to our game, we used shadowrun for when not all the players could show up for another campaign, so that way those day-jobs were very useful in explaining absences ("he's not there, he's in Germany picking up spare parts").
I would say that with some work, you can make those day-jobs a lot more than just a way to get more money.
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.
No, it isn't using "realism". It is using "'up up down down left right left right b a' does jack in this game, as do any other cheat codes."
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.
If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.
If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.
This assumes that improving a lifestyle is the PC's actual motivation. Plenty of characters don't have motivations like this at all.
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The nuyen from the lifestyle section indicates what they make in there spare time. With this though, I think it's possible to use this as a story element that can encourage the PC's to flesh out their characters more. For example, I played as Ping, a Chinese martial artist and sword man who had a vehement loathing towards cyberwared individuals. When the question of what he did in his spare time came up, I created that he fought in cage matches (like wolverine in the first Xmen movie) to scrape up his daily allowances. This was to pay menial bills and also to hone his fighting skills. Though we didn't actually play out the fights, it did add an element to who Ping was, and in addition created a sub plot that was used later for the group campaign.
So my stance on the matter is more or less agreeing with what was said in the beginning of the thread; the PC's need to be paid more for there runs if something as simple as the electric bill or ammo is still hard to pay for. If they really want to do side jobs to earn more then what is fair though, try working it in to role-playing and see if it can enrich the sessions.
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So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.
That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.
If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.
This assumes that improving a lifestyle is the PC's actual motivation. Plenty of characters don't have motivations like this at all.
Actually, it's not so much an assumption about your PC's motivations as it is a response to All4BigGuns's opinion that if your characters don't get enough nuyen to both be able to afford a Middle Lifestyle and save a decent amount of nuyen per month for character advancement, you should simply give them more nuyen.
Of course, if your PCs aren't interested in improving their lifestyle and stick with Low, getting enough income for character advancement shouldn't be an issue at all - if it is, you're definitely not giving them enough nuyen. Extra revenue streams should only be needed if someone wants something really expensive.
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What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.
I was thinking by day or couple of days depending on the task, as they are doing other things during downtime. Thanks for the input. I think a couple hundred a day for a
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Extra revenue streams should only be needed if someone wants something really expensive.
And by really expensive, this should mean a fighter jet, Lobo or Banshee.
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Honestly, it depends on the scale the GM is going for.
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Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.
Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.
Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.
Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.
Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.
People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...
They do it because it is the only way out.
If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.
From a GM perspective - having run many successful long term campaigns, having all the money you want all the time isn't generally healthy for a game. Everybody wants to be a rockstar, but they savor it more if they earn it. Even running a 500BP "elite" group, most players should have a reason to be rich and still Running. For most, being rich is the end goal, not an immediate side-effect.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.
Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.
Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.
Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.
Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.
People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...
They do it because it is the only way out.
If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.
From a GM perspective - having run many successful long term campaigns, having all the money you want all the time isn't generally healthy for a game. Everybody wants to be a rockstar, but they savor it more if they earn it. Even running a 500BP "elite" group, most players should have a reason to be rich and still Running. For most, being rich is he goal, not an immediate side-effect.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
+1 to that Joe, I agree.
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The whole cyberpunk is scraping by doesn't really apply, because Shadowrun is more than just cyberpunk. It's cyberpunk plus magic, there's a huge difference. Why should a mage or adept run the shadows? Even SINless mages and adepts would get snapped up quickly by the corps or government because they are so rare. Them having to just scrape by makes no sense. Being paid enough to keep a roof over your head, ammo in your guns, and some left over to save up for something is much easier to believe and also play. I'm not the first to say this but if I can make more money boosting cars and selling them than I can doing shadowruns, which break more laws and are more dangerous, I'll boost the cars.
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Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.
Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.
Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.
Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.
Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.
It's true. And character flaws and dramatic devices are staples of novels. Is there a connection between the two? Yes.
And how long did the author focus on these day jobs in their stories? Yeah, about one paragraph (which is to say, not long). Yes, it's also true that these (character flaws and dramatic devices) should also be staples of RPGs. But, the OP didn't particularly make it sound like these were goals of the inclusion of "day jobs". It sounded like "I'm surprised that my players are taking game time trying to figure out how to get more nuyen, tell me what to pay them for a dice roll", and I don't see the point in that.
People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...
They do it because it is the only way out.
SINs are easy to get, and for most Runners, chances are so would a marketable job - as is reinforced by the above agreement to pay them more for a day job than Running. The rest (no options, debt, dead-end jobs) just backs up the fact that they should not be able to make much money "the honest way" - and 100/hit/day equals potentially thousands a week pretty easy, which is quite a bit more than it sounds like they're getting paid otherwise.
It's a GMs prerogative to reward day jobs more than Running, but it certainly isn't wrong to focus on advancing the story-line and dramatic exploits over oil-changes.
If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.
For the most part, no one said they should be able to afford whatever they want, especially from the get go. Keep your players 'just scraping by' for long though and watch their morale and attitude toward the game drop. Why? Because fact is; nuyen is a big part of how characters advance in SR, and if you're not giving karma in an equal dearth, then you are heavily favoring Awakened characters over Augmented - and if you are, then players are gonna be really pissed because they're not advancing significantly in any fashion.
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emsquared: That post could very well be solely aimed at the person debating you should basically just give them more for the same amount of work if they want more expensive toys or lifestyles.
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I never said that day jobs or boosting cars should pay more than running the Shadows.
I also never said that you should not pay enough for players to advance, or that they shouldn't make more money as they make a name for themselves.
Your typical Runner should make enough to make forward progress but still be needy enough to have to make some hard choices, and continue to run in the Shadows.
You have to strike a balance. That balance should leave them wanting more than they have, in general.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophst
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emsquared: That post could very well be solely aimed at the person debating you should basically just give them more for the same amount of work if they want more expensive toys or lifestyles.
I know it's possible, but that's what quotes are for. It seemed like a general response and endorsement. Just wanted to provide counter-point for anyone forming their own opinions on the matter.
I never said that day jobs or boosting cars should pay more than running the Shadows.
I also never said that you should not pay enough for players to advance, or that they shouldn't make more money as they make a name for themselves.
Was just posting counter-points to your unilateral statement, and seeming endorsement of conclusions above.