Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: summers307 on <04-25-13/1708:56>
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OK, I've posted before about a PC who's heavily cyberlimbed, and one suggestion for challenging him is to involve the law. Now, I know he doesn't have all the fake licenses he needs to look 100% legit, so if a cop stops him and scans his equipment he'll be red-flagged as carrying restricted hardware.
How would anyone here handle the situation? If he gets hauled into the station what would the cops do? Can they repossess his cyberlimbs? If they do what would happen to him since he'd essentially be a torso and a head (His arms have fake ID's but not the enhancements that he upgraded it with, and he forgot about his legs entirely). How much would the offense cost him monetarily, and would he gain the SINner (criminal) quality from it? I have no qualms for busting him for lack of ID, since when he upgraded his limbs to Alpha he was sitting on an amount of money that was disproportionate to the level (thought it was going to be the last campaign so the group split a million) and he upgraded his character on his spare time. I don't want to outright just take his limbs though, but I do want to put him through the wringer for not thinking through his purchases.
I would love to know your takes on this.
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The way I would handle it would depend on what it is that he has that is restricted or forbidden.
For minor and non-lethal/threatening mods without a license I would have him being issued a warrant to appear and tell the judge why he has them as long as his fake SIN holds up to the scrutiny. These would be issued on the spot similar to how a speeding ticket or such is now.
For more dangerous mods(or if his fake SIN fails the check) he would be hauled downtown and booked. They can put a block on the illegal mods. He would need to post bail and then be given a court date. They could even make it part of his bail that he has to wear a tracker that is hooked in to the cyberlimbs and monitors if he turns the illegal mods back on. (of course this can be hacked, but don't get caught or they will add on more charges)
If the fake SIN doesn't hold up then he would be issued a criminal SIN at that point. If his fake SIN holds it would be marked as belonging to a criminal at that point.
It could be a great way to introduce a police or agent type fixer/contact who will help him with his "problem" if he will do this for the contact.
Hope this helps
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You should SERIOUSLY ask yourself why you're so set and determined to cause problems for this player. It would be wrong of you to single him out in game just because you have an issue with the way he put his character together.
Now, given that you're dealing with second-hand cyberlimbs, if you think it would be good for the game you could have the previous owner have used them for illegal activities; something that creates a headache for the character but isn't THAT hard to get out of. If you're going to more generally start enforcing licencing on his gear, you'll have to do that to everyone - meaning that everyone needs to worry about having licences for their augmentations, all Awakened characters need to worry about their magic registration, technomancers have to worry about something much the same...
And as a caveat, the ID rules are a little non-specific - the player might take the interpretation that his licence for the arms covers the enhancements as well. That sort of thing must be resolved prior to it coming up in game.
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Depending on your group's play style, you have to find a balance between having a realistic world and keeping the game moving and fun for the players. It can really bog down the game if you are constantly rolling perception checks and checking concealability ratings.
I tend to use certain red lines that the players are wise not to cross and make them aware of these lines and that there may be consequences to crossing them. For example, if they carry an assault rifle or greater into downtown Seattle, at that point I'll begin stricly enforcing conceability rules and take appropriate action. Most of the time I'll ignore the rules in favor of keeping the game flowing. I might make a random cop stop their car or have some planned law enforcement event, but these are not the norm.
Also, one way I use to appropriately restrict hot gear and ware is making it hard to enter certain buildings, checkpoints, and areas. It's much like trying to get weapons into the casinos in Fallout New Vegas, if you've ever played that. This way the rules do come into play at times, but I'm not constantly rolling checks, and it gives an appropriate bonus to characters skilled at appearing normal.
You do have to have plans for getting characters involved who are stuck outside checkpoints though, or have alternate, yet harder ways they can get in. I've had times where our street sam with the cyberskull was stuck waiting for the team outside, and while it was appropriate to the situation, it's never good to make a player just sit there not having fun.
As for punishments from the legal system. It's usually best to do things like fines, lawyer fees, and favors now owed to npcs who help the jailed PC out of a jam. While the written rules are harsh on contraband, perfectly enforcing them can easily lead to the equivalent of a TPK. They're best used as a threat, unless you really want to destroy a player character or runner team. It's a dark world, and awful things like Bunraku parlors exist, but it's generally not healthy for a campaign to put your player characters into one as the help.
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Unless the character has obvious cyberlimbs, and doesn't wear concealing clothing over them, he shouldn't be stopped randomly, other than the occasional racist who wants to hassle the troll, or overzealous cop in an AAA zone. A bigger problem will be getting past cyberscanners - this character concept needs to really buddy up with the hacker.
Before you hassle the character out of the blue, let the group know that you might start enforcing things like fake paperwork and keeping obvious weaponry concealed - then give then a chance to fix some of the gaps in their licenses, etc. They have been walking around and not getting any heat for it so far, and their characters, if not the players, would know the normal, everyday ABC's of life in the shadows. Take character knowledge into consideration, especially if you are changing how your very game universe works suddenly.
Also remember that while their may be some police state and surveillance state qualities to Shadowrun, their is also a lawless wild west flavor to the game. There is a glut of data out there, this data is distrusted because it is very easy to fake, and this data is also balkanized among covertly battling corporations that don't like to share. Getting stopped by the cops can often be resolved by a bribe, or doing a run/favor for the arresting government/corporation, or having a hacker do his thing.
There are all kinds of ways to challenge players, and dealing with heat for running too flashy is one of those ways. I by no means advocate giving them a free pass. But let them know what you are changing, and give them some OOC advice on things their character would know. If they ignore some basic aspects of the game world (walking down the street in an AAA zone with their Panther Cannon, etc.), then lower the boom. Try to keep even the trouble the FUN kind, though. A corrupt cop asking for a bribe, a company man asking for a favor, having to live in a safehouse in the Barrens while the heat dies down - good. But having someone sitting in a prison cell twiddling his thumbs, or having most of his cyberware deactivated, kind of drags the game to a halt. Find a way to resolve it fairly quickly, if not painlessly (a shark lawyer demands a big fee to get him off on a loophole, he skips bail but has to lie low while getting a new fake SIN, etc.).
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I guess I should have started this post with one thing I had on my mind but didn't write down: I"m not going to use this angle any time SOON. I was simply wondering if anyone else had put thought into how the legal system worked for people getting caught with illegal inventory would be prosecuted and/or what would reactions be if the item in question is the persons own arm.
I agree with the point that I should let the characters (all of them, even though the other guy who has restricted items has so fewer) make sure if they need fake ID's and if they are covered properly. The reason why I was debating that was simply because he did by fake ID's already, so he was aware of a possible circumstance but missed a spot. This doesn't mean that I'm going to have a cop question him every block he walks, I wanted to be prepared if I wanted to throw that curve ball.
RHat: Yes, I know from my posts that it seems like I single this player out constantly. You know what? I do single him out. Fact is, this player is the reason I came to this forum in the first place. I have to vent in order for what I'm saying to reflect properly. This player is an inconsiderate asshole to put it nicely. He's a power player, a min-maxer, AND an arrogant sonoffabitch when it comes to role playing. I did Pathfinder before Shadowrunner, and I was the DM then. I put between 5-10 hours every week to get a campaign ready for this group, and every Saturday rolled around and my campaign villeins were one-shotted more often then not. I had him scrap characters because they were unbalanced and make new ones. He did, presented them in a very lack luster fashion, and then turns out it's a god damn one trick pony with unrealistic power. Whats that? Because you took one level in Druid and became a cavalier and you crafted your own magical items and you can charge a fucking WALL OF FORCE and kill it? That's ok, I didn't want to use that plot hook anyway.
And then I thought I'd catch a break, Shadowrunner. An RPG that no one at the table has played yet? We're all on equal grounds? Sure I'll be the GM, I just hope I can remember enough of the rules to make it work. We'll just need to help each other out! Well it turns out that once a min-maxer, always a min-maxer. While I was still trying to learn how guns work and that there are no actual classes in this game, this player had a copy of the rule book two weeks prior and discovered that all you need is to max out your money and buy immortality. I was still too new to this game to know how to over come 28 armor on a "level one" PC, so he blatantly strolled into chaos, stood there and laughed, and all I could do was keep shooting when I knew how it was going to end. Spend rest of night with him basking in his glory.
Note: I found out later that the reason why he was such a power gamer in pathfinder is because he went onto forum sites and took builds from other people to use against me. That's why I came to the forums, and it has worked wonders.
Have I learned new ways to deal with him? Yes. Have I evolved as a GM? I'd like to think so. If it wasn't for this site, I would not have learned ways to both deal with him and add a touch of mortality for the rest of the group.
So why would I keep looking for reasons to mess with him? Two; firstly, I am GENUINELY curious about Shadowrunner legalities. But mainly, after my "God damn pirates!" campaign, the culminated work of 20 hours over two weeks to plan (four locations, gang battles, cyber combat, magical duels, flash bang traps, coast guard facility infiltration, over sea speed boat chase, etc), he has the gaul to say AND I FUCKING QUOTE, "I'm gonna go ahead and say that the reason this campaign went so well was because of me. If I wasn't so hard to deal with you wouldn't have to improve".
So none of that session is really my triumph? It's the case of the player who doesn't think beyond his own character. I'm the GM because no one else will take the mantle, but that doesn't mean I don't want to have fun with this. Why do I group with this guy still even if he irritates me? This is simple, we're all military and one of the people in the group is both of our friends. If I refuse to play anymore, I'm sad AND alone and no one who plays this game wants to truly be without a gaming group.
TLDR: This player is a power playing asshole who's inconsiderate to the effort I put into the campaigns who I am in return forced to keep seeing on a weekly basis.
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Oh yeah, got carried away and forgot to add:
Thanks for the info and ideas, it will be a big help in the future!
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One thing to keep in mind with fake licenses is that they may not always quite match the actual weapon or augmentation - this can get the character off the hook for some blatantly illegal things, but may result in more trouble if the character is actually arrested and they go over his 'ware and gear with a fine-toothed comb. Examples would be plastic bone lacing registered as bone density augmentation, a gun registration that doesn't mention a full auto-fire modification that has been done to it, and so on.
Someone who is a troll will occasionally face racism, and someone who is obviously cybered will occasionally attract undue attention from it. He may not be blatantly carrying assault weapons, but the character should still occasionally be hassled. The trouble with this weapon in the GM's arsenal is that it is good for creating small difficulties, but can suck the fun out of the game if used too much. So I would save this option for creating minor problems for the character, with magic and social skills as your big guns against the character.
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Carrying unlicensed Class-B Cyberware (Class-C is cyberweapons, B is the bodypart stuff) carried a 20k nuyen fine in First Edition. And unless you were in the slums, it was a High chance of being stopped if they saw you walking around with cyberlimbs. Now in 4e it's become more common, but I imagine having multiple limbs still results in that High chance at any decent part of town, and the fine is at the least 10k if your permit doesn't check out. If they think they can safely take him in at that point, a bribe would easily have to be a few thousand.
And of course that fine is only if they don't bust his fake SIN. If they do... Ohboy.
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A4BG: Are you suggesting the GM is lying about him constantly trying to provide the players with a fair challenge and being ridiculed for putting futile effort in due to minmaxed characters tossed his way? Because unless you're stating he's lying and he was the one that started the arms race, I can't find any proof of him being the cause of this player's behavior.
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Okay, diverting away from the topic of player vs GM, before Jack takes a swing with his BanHammer. (It's his issue, he doesn't need a lecture about his own decisions.)
If the party is currently operating out of one city, it's easy to state that ID laws and regulation are lax there, and then to have a few lead-in Runs that eventually force them to move to another destination, for money, or safety. Somewhere like Manhattan would be brilliant, but, really, anywhere else can do perfectly. The important thing is that they have to adjust to security procedures, and a change of location believably integrates things.
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So what you really meant to send as message is "Have you tried looking at it from your player's perspective? Perhaps have a private chat with him, see why he does what he does, why he insists on scoring minmax builds to whallop over everything you put together? Maybe he's doing it nowadays because he feels like he's part of an arms race."
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IV: Actually, I've sent the group all over the place so reacurring problems in Seattle hasn't been an issue yet. I'm kind of laughing at the fact that the main city this world is based in and they've only had one job in it out of four sessions.
Michael chandra: Thanks for seeing things my POV, it's helpful.
All4Big: I've typed up to a dozen responses as to what I should say. I'm new to forums, and since you're clearly a prime runner, I'll just keep this simple. If you're not gonna help or don't like what I say, I'm sure there's another post out there that could use your expertise. If all I do is piss you off, then stay outta my threads.
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So what you really meant to send as message is "Have you tried looking at it from your player's perspective? Perhaps have a private chat with him, see why he does what he does, why he insists on scoring minmax builds to whallop over everything you put together? Maybe he's doing it nowadays because he feels like he's part of an arms race."
I'm just not going to blindly believe what he says. If he really wants useful and good advice, then he should get the player to make an account here and give his side. Otherwise, I will assume that he is intentionally trying to conceal things to make the other look like "the bad guy".
If your response to someone giving a detailed description of a minmaxing player with a bad personality and even calling them "a power playing asshole who's inconsiderate to the effort I put into the campaigns" is "get off your danged high horse" and blindly believing the player must be an innocent victim in the matter, you have serious issues.
summers307: I spotted a blog post by a GM (one I admittedly wouldn't want to play with) a while back, detailing how explosives are an excellent way to kill off characters you don't like. If confronting him about his attitude or giving him in-game consequences for his behavior doesn't work, you could always blow up the character's home when he opens the front door (does he check for explosives? line the entire wall with them), then explain that it was surprisingly easy for the brother of that guy he killed 2 sessions ago to find the home of the "chromed up like heck" guy, and perhaps even give him a detailed description of the "chunky salsa" mechanic when he complains that he shouldn't be this easy to kill.
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Cows falling from space. Don't even give a roll, the character just dies. It saves time and shows you can beat whatever concept he can come up with.
Edit- Alternately make him GM he apparently knows the rules well enough.
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I think challenging a character is something a GM should always do with careful consideration. It's good to look at a character's vulnerabilities to find ways to bring some tension and drama into the game - although the GM should also make sure to highlight the character's strengths. Have the big tank get bamboozled by a fast talker, or knocked out by neurostun, or blasted with a manabolt; but let him soak up some small arms fire and knock out security guards with a single swat from his bear-like hands, too.
But don't abuse your authority to create blatantly no-win situations. There are plenty of logical consequences and simple tactics that can take out a character - a sniper from a rooftop after he insults an underworld figure, a girl who drugs his drink, a vent that dumps knockout gas into a sealed room after they trip an alarm, cops hauling him off after his fake SIN doesn't check out, leading to him being armless and legless in priso, and so on. But doing things like that will erode the trust between players and GM and make the game less fun. It sounds like the OOC situation is that you are stuck with one player you don't like, in order to game at all. Just make the best of it, and try not to let this dislike poison your role as GM.
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Always give them a warning and a way out. Never just kill a PC.
"But Joe!" I hear you say, "Don't you always tell us that killing off a PC now and then is good for the game?"
Yes. And if you did so early on, you'd have way less problems with your troublesome player.
I guarantee that your problem player has screwed up at some point, got over-confident, and you let them off the hook.
Once they know you won't let the dice fall where they may, you're in big trouble as a GM. Don't get me wrong, there is a time and a place to fudge a die roll...the dice are, at best, a tool - and a good GM knows when to use them as a prop.
But this guy, you don't want to save, just lay it out. Tell him not to push the big red button. Not to sleep with the Vory Boss' daughter. Not to talk about the world-renowned Elven assassin's lisp.
Then let the dice fall.
It's not personal, it is business. Dangerous business.
Even if he lives, he might see that he can't fly on his own.
Then, when he tries to mini-max his next character into twice the problem, be involved in the process. You can certainly max a character hard in SR, but the mini is there, too. Built right in. Work with him to make a character you can both be happy with.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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If your response to someone giving a detailed description of a minmaxing player with a bad personality and even calling them "a power playing asshole who's inconsiderate to the effort I put into the campaigns" is "get off your danged high horse" and blindly believing the player must be an innocent victim in the matter, you have serious issues.
It's called Devil's Advocate, and someone has to do it. Basically, he does need to get the player in question to make an account and come here to give his side of the story so that we can get the full truth. (It would take hearing both sides since I'm certain both would "spin" things to make themselves look better.) I'm just not going to accept that the player is automatically 100% in the wrong--especially when the GM is asking for advice on how to screw the guy over.
There's a line between devil's advocate (taking a position you don't necessarily agree with for the sake of debate) and outright insulting and attacking someone, and you went so far beyond that line that the Devil's Advocate's Satellite Link won't reach you.
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As much as I agree with you that I don't buy the explanation as sufficient for the hostile tone used, it's best to leave the hostility to one side of the argument, bro. Best to let it rest, the admins already had to lock two topics recently due to escalation.
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Indeed. While A4BG has definitely been channeling radicals like Ecotope or Aufheben lately, there's no reason to escalate things on your side. Best to just let it rest, or if you think he's gone too far, report the post. And yes, I know this is a pot/kettle situation with me saying this, but oh well.
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To be clear, what's being described is definitely an out-of-game issue. As such, it can ONLY be solved out of game. Trying to do things to mess with the player in game, regardless of anyone's opinion on whether or not it's justified, simply cannot work - it will only worsen the problem.
What needs to happen, pure and simple, is that you need to sit down with this player and actually have a conversation about what it is you have an issue with and why; make it absolutely clear that he is not "helping" you, but hurting your enjoyment of the game.
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To be clear, what's being described is definitely an out-of-game issue. As such, it can ONLY be solved out of game. Trying to do things to mess with the player in game, regardless of anyone's opinion on whether or not it's justified, simply cannot work - it will only worsen the problem.
Agreed. And if for some reason you don't want to confront this player in this manner, which is the healthiest way to handle it, you may instead try to cater to this player's tendencies. I'd normally suggest you not play with anyone you would call an ahole, but you seem stuck with him. Best to make the best of it.
This type of player would be ejected by my players in my group without me having to lift a finger. Regardless of the situation, that your group is tolerating him speaks volumes. Your players have found qualities in this person they value enough to keep at the game table. Try to exploit those qualities to have fun. If he's arrogant, maybe he's also entertaining? Maybe not to you, but to your other players.
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Concealed mage with Control Thoughts. Or fear. A well placed sniper blowing some edge...You could honestly Plot Device 3000 a situation where he has to go Mano-a-Mano with another big bad who's insulting his character's pride, etc.
What are his negative qualities? There has to be something in there to make him try assuming he's not running around with Incompetent: Pilot Aerospace. From what you've described he sounds like a power gamer that's ever had to put effort into creating an NPC and I can sympathize with that, especially if he's making a big braggy show about it. He's essentially asking for it.
I wouldn't TPK but I'd probably set him up in a position where he has to contemplate handing over his character sheet though. I find players like that exceedingly miserable to play with. Not just for the GM but for the other players. Just my 2 cents.
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UPDATE:
I've confronted him in-game. He honestly didn't realize how I felt towards it, and also didn't think through his line about him being the reason why the campaigns worked. I got an apology and he's aware about those mannerisms. We've moved passed that and for me at least it makes me like the table session much better.
I snapped, and anyone can agree that sometimes things seem overwhelming or the world seems to be against you. I have resolved my problem and I will take it from here.
Two things to point out: First is I used this player as an example for the law getting involved with cyberware, but this was an implication for the entire group. He's merely the most chromed out member in the party so it came naturally to mention him. I guess in the future I'll just say "the party".
Second, the OP (me) wanted to know LEGAL standpoints of owning cyberware without adequate licenses, and how other GM's would deal with legal ramifications of a cop seeing a perp with something he shouldn't own. This post has gone WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic.
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Second, the OP (me) wanted to know LEGAL standpoints of owning cyberware without adequate licenses, and how other GM's would deal with legal ramifications of a cop seeing a perp with something he shouldn't own. This post has gone WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic.y
Well to sum it up, the penalties are downright vicious. However, they are reliant on things like the police officer's perception, knowledge of police procedures, and concealability of the item. There's actual charts in some of the older books, but you don't really need them. Just make an estimate of what you think the penalty should be, with the understanding that the sentences on the books are pretty harsh.
The system is extremely corrupt and favors the rich. You can use this as a way to avoid destroying player characters and runner teams, while still enforcing some penalties. So instead of going to prison 5 years, they instead pay a bribe, pay a lawyer, or pay a bribe to a lawyer to get out or get a reduced sentence. Faces and such are often better at this. (In fact I had a character of my own that was a lawyer Face)
Another option is to have some well connected person or contact bail them out, with the understanding they now owe them a favor.
In general, the more dangerous the item is, and the closer you brought that item to some rich person, the more forcefully the system will respond.
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The only real indication I know of is the numbers listed in Sprawl Site from First Edition. In this all but military armor, ammunition and cyberware have multiple categories (possession, transport, threat, use, intent) which come with rising penalties and eventually start using jailtime.
Now some of these have clearly changed, but for example Military Armor was 1.2k, Ammo 3k, body-mod cyberware 20k and cyberweapons 10 years in prison. Meanwhile, a pistol in a box was 0.5k, on you 1.5k* and visible is 5k. An automatic was 5k/10k/6months. So it carries a steep fine to have one with you, but if you walk around town with one visible, you're screwed. Just like owning Cyberware without a license only the slums and barrens do not immediately result in police action if you walk around with an AK hanging from your shoulder.
If something's not punishable by jailtime, I'd expect cops to allow a bribe, which depends on the neighborhood, the amount of shocked witnesses and other ruckus, and the official fine. So e.g. being caught with Cyberware without a permit in a low neighborhood would be, what, 20% if they don't think you intend to beat the hell out of someone with it? Add to that that the fines probably lowered as nuyen levels changed, as well as cyberware becoming more and more common, and I'd expect a 2k fine or so.
Minor note: Using any kind of weapon can already result in jailtime. Using it ON somebody will end you up with jailtime unless it's a blade/club/bow, then you MIGHT end up with just a fine.
If you want I can quote the tables, so you can use them as inspiration. Just tone down the nuyen levels a bit, keep in mind jailtime can be parole after ~30% with another 20% as your on-parole time, and tune down the levels quite a bit for some cyberware categories as they have become more common. Also, anyone dumb enough NOT to get a fake license for that cyberweapon deserves those 10 years, 3 years and 2 years parole if on good behavior.
*: I demand Concealed Carry licenses from players on top of their licenses for the individual Restricted weapons. On top of that there's Smartlink Arms Licenses for usage of additional smartguns and smartlinks, Stun Arms for melee weapons that cause stun damage, a license for using any type of gas grenades with restricted toxins, a Bounty Hunter and Private Security license exist, etc. It's up to the GM to determine what kind of additional licenses there are, though. Do you want 1 license per stun baton, or just 1 license for all stunbatons/shockgloves? Do you want a license for concealed carrying or is that part of the weapon license? Etc.
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Didn't 1e ShadowTech have a whole section of the legal system, crime and punishment?
I boxed up my older editions. I'll have to see if I can't dig that out.
...
Anyone got a backhoe I can borrow?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I got my stuff from 1e Sprawl Sites. Let me check if I got ShadowTech... Ayup, signed by Tom Dowd in '93. Let me check.
Edit: It has basically the same as Sprawl Sites but with much more stuff in it, such as Bioware categories and more, a list of Criminal Charges with their sentences, a section on Jurisdiction and even the difference between Seattle and UCAS fines and punishments.
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Now, if someone could just explain how I can remember that, from twenty years ago...
...but I can't find last month's cable bill.
::)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Simple, you remember stuff that's important.
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Your priorities are perfectly aligned.
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Now, if someone could just explain how I can remember that, from twenty years ago...
...but I can't find last month's cable bill.
Because Shadowrun is awesome and deserves to be remembered