Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ninja137 on <04-29-13/2225:40>
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Barring cyberlimb armor stacking, what is the highest armor you can achieve? Does the Full Milspec armor actually come out on top, or does something else just entirely take the cake?
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With the heights that a maxed-body troll can wear, stacked armor can easily exceed any single-unit armor like milspec. It's kind of funny if you think about it, but I'll let one of the veterans of the board who actually directly know about one of the ungodly durable trolls can do.
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Could you technically just stack Form-Fitting armor repeatedly on a Bod 15 troll? It'd only count for 1 armor encumberance after Smart-Weave, so you'd be able to get 180 Balistic/90 Impact?
I know it wouldn't be intended, but would it technically work by RAW?
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Could you technically just stack Form-Fitting armor repeatedly on a Bod 15 troll?
FFBA can't be stacked with itself (not in the German Erratta ;) ) only with OTHER Armor
He who dances with himself
Medicineman
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Our friendly neighborhood troll tank has two modes:
Offensive = Armour jacket + FFBA + full Securetech + Ballistic mask/helmet + MG on gyromount.
Defensive = As above except + Ballistic Shield and replace MG with Machine pistol.
Yes, he has proper milspec if needed, but most of the time it's not viable.
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Why a machine pistol? He's only at a -1 penalty with an assault rifle to use it one-handed.
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Why a machine pistol? He's only at a -1 penalty with an assault rifle to use it one-handed.
Because he can hide it under his jacket when he's not on a run. I am expecting him to upgrade when he gets a bit of money behind him.
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And MP's classically are used with ballistic shields in raids!
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And MP's classically are used with ballistic shields in raids!
???
Usually, a ballistic shield-man would carry a pistol, with a cover guy using a long gun.
Police tend to eschew machine pistols here, as Spray-n-Pray tends to lead to a LOT of paperwork. The red tape is bad enough if you shoot a bad guy, but when you start hitting innocent bystanders, nuns, kids, pets...
Man, do you have any idea the amount of scrutiny they'd come under if they hit a dog?!
In the United States, anyway.
Maybe, in less civilized places, they're okay with stray rounds hitting stray dogs. But here, in America, you can only shoot your own dog. :o ;D ;)
Where was I? Right...shields.
While in reality, they tend to be used mostly by Law Enforcement, I think shields are one of the most overlooked pieces of gear - my Troll Mage owns one, keeps it in the van for a bad day. I mean, he's a Troll, he doesn't carry a long gun, and once they figure out he's a Mage he's Gank Priority One...nice to have a solid wall to carry around for cover.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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All my first response OMON squads carry shields and usually MPs or SMGs with officers behind them with either ARs or shotguns, and grenade launchers with CS gas and the like. But I've never encountered a case where officers loose their shit and switch from I to IIIII on the fire selector. Having a compact gun that you have to reload infrequently while you're providing literal cover for the rest of your team comes in handy.
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All my first response OMON squads carry shields and usually MPs or SMGs with officers behind them with either ARs or shotguns, and grenade launchers with CS gas and the like. But I've never encountered a case where officers loose their shit and switch from I to IIIII on the fire selector. Having a compact gun that you have to reload infrequently while you're providing literal cover for the rest of your team comes in handy.
Yeah, because OMON units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMON) have never (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_OMON_fratricide_incident) done anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Purpose_Police_Unit_(Azerbaijan)) like that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ring).
Models of restraint (http://books.google.com/books?id=mKcazy5JDCgC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=OMON+unit+abuse&source=bl&ots=wnxOOcfRcC&sig=t9Qyp3XjGzp7Q7YuHQCU9gmi3BI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4JqAUf7uG4WQ8wSu_ICgBg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=OMON%20unit%20abuse&f=false), those OMON units.
Oh, wait..they're totally not. (http://hro.rightsinrussia.info/archive/prisons/riots/kopeisk/human-rights-council)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Shields kind of depend on what that "all physical tests (including attacks)" actually means.
As for maximum "worn" armor (you can get armor from things other than that and cyberlimbs like orthoskin and whatever but they generally aren't very good), it depends on how your GM things Weaves from Attitude work, namely: can you stack the different weave types, can you stack the same weave type, if so does it have to be on different armor pieces?
It then also depends on how many pieces of head armor your GM will let you wear.
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It then also depends on how many pieces of head armor your GM will let you wear.
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Okay...I'll bite.
How is that in question?
Do people want to wear riot helmets over their SecurTech PPP hockey helmet?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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It then also depends on how many pieces of head armor your GM will let you wear.
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Okay...I'll bite.
How is that in question?
Do people want to wear riot helmets over their SecurTech PPP hockey helmet?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Quite frankly, yes.
There have been many discussions on that exact topic and I suggest we don't go into it here...
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It then also depends on how many pieces of head armor your GM will let you wear.
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Okay...I'll bite.
How is that in question?
Do people want to wear riot helmets over their SecurTech PPP hockey helmet?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Quite frankly, yes.
There have been many discussions on that exact topic and I suggest we don't go into it here...
(http://files.sharenator.com/tactical_facepalm_RE_random_pics_and_fails_11-s600x480-105313-580.jpg)
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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I say we go into it, seeing as it'd be a part of the discussion at hand.
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Well the plain and simple of it is whether or not a SecureTech PPP-System Helmet can be worn underneath another Helmet.
On the one hand, the argument is saying that by the general SecureTech description, it is can be made as "discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing" or "as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor". This leading to the argument that you can wear a SecureTech helmet underneath or augmenting another helmet. Making it possible to have a combined headgear of +2/+4
On the other hand, is the argument that also in the general SecureTech description is the statement that: "these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do." The argument that you, plain and simply cannot wear two helmets. Or at the very least two helmets would not stack. Making the maximum possible headgear to give +2/+2 (Like the military grade helmet or SWAT helmet).
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Very nice summary, Kiirnodel.
I'll just add, this is another instance of "specific vs general"...
The general SecurTech PPP description has the overt/discrete description, but if I recall - the description of the helmet states that it's basically a hockey helmet.
Plus...no, you can't wear two helmets. Cut it out. ::)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Plus...no, you can't wear two helmets. Cut it out. ::)
Some tend to disagree:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3uu-KoXscvM/Ticc6hnicyI/AAAAAAAAAhM/24f51EHS5C0/s1600/Picture+035.jpg)
Just kidding)
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I think the highest armor that I've found someone would be able to get would be:
SWATArmor 12/10
SWAT Helmet +2/+2
Full SecureTech PPP Armor +2/+6
Full Form-Fitting Body Armor +6/+2
Ballistic Shield +6/+4
Gel Packs on the SWAT Armor +1/+1
Total it would give: 29/25, and hardly encumber a troll at all with Smart-Weave added. EASILY beating milspec armor without any problems at all. And this is still not counting Dermal Deposits, Cyberlimb Armor, Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin. Nor is it even expensive to do, and you can just slap Ruthenium Polymer Coating on the SWAT armor and be as stealthy as tactical milspec armor, with almost double the armor. Plus stacking Enhancements like Non-Con, Thermal Dampening, Chem Protection...
So, why does MilSpec armor exist if the more common armor blows it out of the water with little problem?
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I think the highest armor that I've found someone would be able to get would be:
SWATArmor 12/10
SWAT Helmet +2/+2
Full SecureTech PPP Armor +2/+6
Full Form-Fitting Body Armor +6/+2
Ballistic Shield +6/+4
Gel Packs on the SWAT Armor +1/+1
Total it would give: 29/25, and hardly encumber a troll at all with Smart-Weave added. EASILY beating milspec armor without any problems at all. And this is still not counting Dermal Deposits, Cyberlimb Armor, Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin. Nor is it even expensive to do, and you can just slap Ruthenium Polymer Coating on the SWAT armor and be as stealthy as tactical milspec armor, with almost double the armor. Plus stacking Enhancements like Non-Con, Thermal Dampening, Chem Protection...
So, why does MilSpec armor exist if the more common armor blows it out of the water with little problem?
The additional upgrade options available to it. You can't get the Strength or Mobility upgrades on the SWAT or Security armor, for instance.
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*cracks knuckles*
To optimise Armor: (without using excessive amounts of cheese)
Wear the full set of Vashon Island: Steampunk Line, getting an armor value of 7/7 [Arsenal p. 46]
Augment this with a full set of SecureTech PPP-System (sans helmet), giving an armor bonus of +2/+4 [Arsenal p. 49]
Instead of the SecureTech Helmet, Wear a SWAT Armor Helmet, getting +2/+2
Underneath all this wear a Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit, giving an armor bonus of +6/+2 (but only counting as +3/+1 for encumbrance) [Arsenal p. 48]
Using Attitude, augment the Steampunk Armor Clothing with Dela-Amyloid coating for an additional +3/+1
This totals up to 20/16, but only counts as 17/15 for the purposes of encumbrance, so a Body 9 Troll could wear it. You could also optionally add the YNT Softweave from War! to the Steampunk reducing one of the armor values by up to your strength, but this would only make the Impact Armor the limiting factor instead of Ballistic, requiring only Body 8 instead.
If you want to inject major amounts of cheese into your armor (WARNING: May cause repeated head trauma from phonebook):
Allow a character to wear both the SecureTech and the SWAT Helmets (an extra +0/+2)
Allow a character to put the Delta Amyloid coating on each piece of the Steampunk Armor (there are 4 total), adding an additiona +9/+3 armor for the extra three pieces.
In addition, add YNT Softweave to Everything (the highest armor value of any individual piece of Armor is only 6. This would reduce the encumbrance to next to nothing. But at this point you don't have much other space for armor without getting into Munchkin territory.
All of this brings the armor value up to 29/21, but only counts as 26/20 for encumbrance, a Troll with 10 Body and 6 Strength could wear it.
Combine either of those two things with a Ballistic Shield could add another +6/+4 (or +2/+6 for a Riot/Taser Shield)
I will need to make a slight edit on this, but I need to switch computers and don't want to lose what I wrote. Pardon the momentary unedited nature of this post...
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I think the highest armor that I've found someone would be able to get would be:
SWATArmor 12/10
SWAT Helmet +2/+2
Full SecureTech PPP Armor +2/+6
Full Form-Fitting Body Armor +6/+2
Ballistic Shield +6/+4
Gel Packs on the SWAT Armor +1/+1
Total it would give: 29/25, and hardly encumber a troll at all with Smart-Weave added. EASILY beating milspec armor without any problems at all. And this is still not counting Dermal Deposits, Cyberlimb Armor, Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin. Nor is it even expensive to do, and you can just slap Ruthenium Polymer Coating on the SWAT armor and be as stealthy as tactical milspec armor, with almost double the armor. Plus stacking Enhancements like Non-Con, Thermal Dampening, Chem Protection...
So, why does MilSpec armor exist if the more common armor blows it out of the water with little problem?
The additional upgrade options available to it. You can't get the Strength or Mobility upgrades on the SWAT or Security armor, for instance.
The additional upgrades are either meh, or entirely able to be gotten by other sources.
The only ones that stand out are Articulated Weapon Arm, Quick Release, and Strength Upgrade. Everything else isn't really worth it. And Mobility Upgrade is stupid, it's entirely useless other than adding a minor bonus to Run checks. Wearing one set of armor doesn't encumber you anyway, and since it doesn't stack with ANYTHING even though it would make sense in a few cases, you'll never be encumbered.
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*cracks knuckles*
To optimise Armor: (without using excessive amounts of cheese)
Wear the full set of Vashon Island: Steampunk Line, getting an armor value of 7/7 [Arsenal p. 46]
Augment this with a full set of SecureTech PPP-System (sans helmet), giving an armor bonus of +2/+4 [Arsenal p. 49]
Instead of the SecureTech Helmet, Wear a SWAT Armor Helmet, getting +2/+2
Underneath all this wear a Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit, giving an armor bonus of +6/+2 (but only counting as +3/+1 for encumbrance) [Arsenal p. 48]
Using Attitude, augment the Steampunk Armor Clothing with Dela-Amyloid coating for an additional +3/+1
This totals up to 20/16, but only counts as 17/15 for the purposes of encumbrance, so a Body 9 Troll could wear it. You could also optionally add the YNT Softweave from War! to the Steampunk reducing one of the armor values by up to your strength, but this would only make the Impact Armor the limiting factor instead of Ballistic, requiring only Body 8 instead.
If you want to inject major amounts of cheese into your armor (WARNING: May cause repeated head trauma from phonebook):
Allow a character to wear both the SecureTech and the SWAT Helmets (an extra +0/+2)
Allow a character to put the Delta Amyloid coating on each piece of the Steampunk Armor (there are 4 total), adding an additiona +9/+3 armor for the extra three pieces.
In addition, add YNT Softweave to Everything (the highest armor value of any individual piece of Armor is only 6. This would reduce the encumbrance to next to nothing. But at this point you don't have much other space for armor without getting into Munchkin territory.
All of this brings the armor value up to 29/21, but only counts as 26/20 for encumbrance, a Troll with 10 Body and 6 Strength could wear it.
Combine either of those two things with a Ballistic Shield could add another +6/+4 (or +2/+6 for a Riot/Taser Shield)
I will need to make a slight edit on this, but I need to switch computers and don't want to lose what I wrote. Pardon the momentary unedited nature of this post...
If we're going to start adding Weaves, why not just go all the way and add ALL three weaves to each piece of armor, boosting it up even further?
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I think the highest armor that I've found someone would be able to get would be:
SWATArmor 12/10
SWAT Helmet +2/+2
Full SecureTech PPP Armor +2/+6
Full Form-Fitting Body Armor +6/+2
Ballistic Shield +6/+4
Gel Packs on the SWAT Armor +1/+1
Total it would give: 29/25, and hardly encumber a troll at all with Smart-Weave added. EASILY beating milspec armor without any problems at all. And this is still not counting Dermal Deposits, Cyberlimb Armor, Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin. Nor is it even expensive to do, and you can just slap Ruthenium Polymer Coating on the SWAT armor and be as stealthy as tactical milspec armor, with almost double the armor. Plus stacking Enhancements like Non-Con, Thermal Dampening, Chem Protection...
So, why does MilSpec armor exist if the more common armor blows it out of the water with little problem?
The additional upgrade options available to it. You can't get the Strength or Mobility upgrades on the SWAT or Security armor, for instance.
The additional upgrades are either meh, or entirely able to be gotten by other sources.
The only ones that stand out are Articulated Weapon Arm, Quick Release, and Strength Upgrade. Everything else isn't really worth it. And Mobility Upgrade is stupid, it's entirely useless other than adding a minor bonus to Run checks. Wearing one set of armor doesn't encumber you anyway, and since it doesn't stack with ANYTHING even though it would make sense in a few cases, you'll never be encumbered.
The Mobility upgrade and the improvement to how encumbrance is calculated is all that is needed to prevent being encumbered by Military Armor. (The 'one suit of armor doesn't encumber' is either a house rule or an optional rule--I forget which--so one can not count on it being in effect.)
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If we're going to start adding Weaves, why not just go all the way and add ALL three weaves to each piece of armor, boosting it up even further?
Agreed, that would go under the "cheese" heading.
As a note, YNT Softweave only reduces the higher of the two armor values, not both. And, after reading it again, it reduces the Total armor, not each individual piece.
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Why not use the Ares Victory line? Every bit of it stacks together since none of it has an asterisk to denote that it can't be worn together. 23/12 before weaves, SecureTech PPP, FFBA, or Smartweave is added.
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Why not use the Ares Victory line? Every bit of it stacks together since none of it has an asterisk to denote that it can't be worn together. 23/12 before weaves, SecureTech PPP, FFBA, or Smartweave is added.
Because the Ares Victory Line isn't a collection, no (c) next to the name, and cannot be worn together at all.
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Totally missed that, my bad.
Still, the question stands. Why is it that protection which is entirely available to civilians does the job of protecting the wearer nearly twice as well as the armor intended for the "Best of the best" high end CorpSec? Does this seem like a problem to anyone else?
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Given the amount of extras upgrades it can come with and the fact Military Armor is meant to be a simple solution to the overburden problem without having to munchkin your gear or having to have a huge body, no problem here really. You got 6 Body, Military Armor ain't that bad a choice. You got 4, still not a bad choice.
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Milspec gives you BOD * 3 Encumbrance rather than BOD * 2, which makes it the best soak armor for BOD 4 through 7 characters (barring Soft Weave, which didn't exist when Milspec was design from a mechanics perspective). Most military or high end corpsec that are not Orks or Trolls will be in that range. Only Orks and Trolls can hit BOD 8 unaugmented, and even those specimens are not common (BOD 8 Ork is well above metatype average, BOD 8 Troll is a little above average)
A BOD 4 Human can wear Light Milspec for 12/10, which is better than the 11/9 he'd get from FFBA + Stuff.
BOD 5, Red Samurai + Helmet at 15/15 or Medium Milspec at 14/12, again better than 13/11.
BOD 6 or 7, Heavy Milspec + Helmet at 18/16, which bests 15/13 or 17/15 from stacking.
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You can also attach:
Moonsilver Line Scarf ("Tactical Neck Insulator")
Quizzel Fairy/Dragon Wings
Ballistic Mask
Before anyone QQs: yes, you can wear a mask with a helmet. Soldiers do it in real life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_Soldier_System
I should also note the middle ground between "I can wear 5 different armor items with all three weaves on each" and "only one weave" is that you can use one copy of each weave total, so one Delta-Amyloid, one Carbon-Boron, and one whatever the kevlar thing is.
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You can also attach:
Moonsilver Line Scarf ("Tactical Neck Insulator")
Quizzel Fairy/Dragon Wings
Ballistic Mask
Before anyone QQs: yes, you can wear a mask with a helmet. Soldiers do it in real life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_Soldier_System
I should also note the middle ground between "I can wear 5 different armor items with all three weaves on each" and "only one weave" is that you can use one copy of each weave total, so one Delta-Amyloid, one Carbon-Boron, and one whatever the kevlar thing is.
Ballistic Mask? How did I miss that? Where's it at?
I have not problem with that and a helmet. Actually, I have a character that I had described his PPP helmet as a black goalie mask, for stylistic reasons...a ballistic one would be much better!
For the record, protesting someone trying to wear a helmet over their helmet does not constitute a "QQ" - it's the reassertion of reason. :o
You can do more than one type of weave? From Attitude? Is that a commonly agreed upon thing, or is that a grey area?
No disagreeing, just seems...well...very powerful. You're still limited by BOD, of course, but you can really crank up a single layer that way.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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For the record, protesting someone trying to wear a helmet over their helmet does not constitute a "QQ" - it's the reassertion of reason.
The QQ comment is because someone did in fact claim that wearing a mask with a helmet was ridiculous in the last millinery thread.
The Ballistic Mask is from BOGOTA!
People will debate anything and I doubt there's a consensus. I was just pointing out that a middle ground does exist.
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For the record, protesting someone trying to wear a helmet over their helmet does not constitute a "QQ" - it's the reassertion of reason.
The QQ comment is because someone did in fact claim that wearing a mask with a helmet was ridiculous in the last millinery thread.
The Ballistic Mask is from BOGOTA!
People will debate anything and I doubt there's a consensus. I was just pointing out that a middle ground does exist.
Ballistic Mask is from War!
Where does it say you can only have one of each individual weave, exactly?
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For a while I was playing around with the idea of a troll mystic adept built full tank and possession tradition to get that immunity to normal weapons. And he would primarily use a bowling Ball as a weapon
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For the record, protesting someone trying to wear a helmet over their helmet does not constitute a "QQ" - it's the reassertion of reason.
The QQ comment is because someone did in fact claim that wearing a mask with a helmet was ridiculous in the last millinery thread.
The Ballistic Mask is from BOGOTA!
People will debate anything and I doubt there's a consensus. I was just pointing out that a middle ground does exist.
Ballistic Mask is from War!
Where does it say you can only have one of each individual weave, exactly?
It doesn't. It doesn't actually say anything at all about whether or how weaves stack or with what.
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For the record, protesting someone trying to wear a helmet over their helmet does not constitute a "QQ" - it's the reassertion of reason.
The QQ comment is because someone did in fact claim that wearing a mask with a helmet was ridiculous in the last millinery thread.
The Ballistic Mask is from BOGOTA!
People will debate anything and I doubt there's a consensus. I was just pointing out that a middle ground does exist.
Ballistic Mask is from War!
Where does it say you can only have one of each individual weave, exactly?
It doesn't. It doesn't actually say anything at all about whether or how weaves stack or with what.
They don't have a rule stating they don't stack, a rule saying they only are usable on a single piece of clothing at once, or anything else. They just work like normal enhancements to armor, providing the listed bonus each time, then? So they'd give full armor for each piece of clothing you use them on, I suppose. It doesn't really matter a ton most of the time, but that's useful for this if you're really going all out with the Steampunk Weaves and insane armor stacking line.
However, the main point of this thread isn't really armor stacking math, it's the fact that Milspec Armor pales in comparision to things doable by average people, and for less cost or arousal of suspicion. How exactly might we be able to fix that? Make Milspec provide more protection so that it actually does it's job adequately?
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Just to get something clear here, are we talking Weaved Armor for people with Body 6-, non-Weaved Armor for people with Body 6-, or talking armor for Body 7+ people?
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Just to get something clear here, are we talking Weaved Armor for people with Body 6-, non-Weaved Armor for people with Body 6-, or talking armor for Body 7+ people?
Yes.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Where does it say you can only have one of each individual weave, exactly?
If I recall somewhere on these boards is a comment by the author that they are not supposed to stack, but it has yet to appear as an errata.
Then again, getting Catalyst to release errata....
-k
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So why is MilSpec such a bad call for Body 2~6 people if we're using Extended Core only?
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You can also attach:
Moonsilver Line Scarf ("Tactical Neck Insulator")
Quizzel Fairy/Dragon Wings
Ballistic Mask
Before anyone QQs: yes, you can wear a mask with a helmet. Soldiers do it in real life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_Soldier_System
I should also note the middle ground between "I can wear 5 different armor items with all three weaves on each" and "only one weave" is that you can use one copy of each weave total, so one Delta-Amyloid, one Carbon-Boron, and one whatever the kevlar thing is.
Wait, the scarf actually stacks with other armor? Can it technically have Weaves applied to it, since it'd be a piece of Armor Clothing?
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So why is MilSpec such a bad call for Body 2~6 people if we're using Extended Core only?
Because you can get better armor than it EASILY. Core+Arsenal nets you:
FFBA 6/2
SecureTech PPP 2/6
SWAT Armor 12/10
Helmet 2/2
Moonsilver Scarf 1/0
Ballistic Shield
For a total of: 29/24.
Heavy Milspec on the other hand, Hardcaps at 18/16 and can't even be used with a Shield. If you've got a crap body, sure Milspec is great for you. However, people with a crap body score aren't what we're talking about. We're talking about the highest armor you can get. That place SHOULD belong to Heavy Milspec. Rather firmly belong to it, for that matter. However, that is ENTIRELY not the case. Even if you drop the SWAT armor down to a Chameleon Jumpsuit you STILL blow Heavy Milspec out of the water. By a mile.
Heavy Milspec needs to get a buffed armor value, because as is it's expensive, rare, and bad.
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Okay, so the answer to my question was "armor for Body 7+ people". Check. You're right, you'd expect some sort of armor for high-Body troops. After all, right now a GM would have to decide whether you'd be allowed to stack additional armor on and lose the x3 rule. But maybe it's to prevent high-Body people from reaching armor levels through Milspec where you'd need tanks to scratch them. Now for the normal troops, MilSpec's nice.
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Wait, the scarf actually stacks with other armor? Can it technically have Weaves applied to it, since it'd be a piece of Armor Clothing?
Yes, it's +1/+0 so it adds to worn armor.
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Where does it say you can only have one of each individual weave, exactly?
If I recall somewhere on these boards is a comment by the author that they are not supposed to stack, but it has yet to appear as an errata.
Then again, getting Catalyst to release errata....
-k
Yeah, it seems odd to me that I could make a pair of Underoostm provide the same protection as, say, SWAT armor.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist