Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Cogliostro on <04-30-13/1938:56>
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Greetings GMs! I am glad to be here and have found these forums. I have been interested in GMing Shadowrun for several of my friends. I tried running a couple of sessions before and they had a blast. I need to do a lot more reading into the core rulebook, Seattle 2072, and a few other books that have been noted in other posts so I can get a better handle on the game and the world so I can run it with a little more finesse. But as I read through the forums I came across something that has been nagging me, and so I ask all of you who have experience with Shadowrun the following:
I noticed that Shadowrun 5th Edition is slated to be released this summer. Being that I, and my friends are new to the game, is it worth investing in SR4? I know that SR5 isn't out yet, but being that there have been 4 editions of the core rules, and they have obviously changed over the years, I was looking to get some insight to the trends on how things change, and if getting committed to SR4 is a good idea or not with the pending release of 5th edition.
I thank you very much for taking the time to read this, and any feedback is always greatly appreciated.
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As a GM, if you're brand new to Shadowrun, it is probably best to wait for SR5. This is mostly because there are bound to be some rule changes that, if you were to learn SR4, you would need to unlearn in a short amount of time.
That being said, I think another factor is how much you want to get into the Shadowrun universe as a whole for your campaign. If you want a deep-rooted story campaign with many plot hooks from the existing universe, knowing the universe (and using the SR4 books) is probably a good route to take. If its more of a simple "see what the universe has to offer" kind of campaign, you could probably make due with picking up a couple 20th Ani. SR4s if you want to get into the rulest without having to wait a few months.
Personally, even though SR5 is coming out, I intend to still run SR4 campaigns mostly due to the time needed to get up to speed on SR5 rules. I probably won't run an SR5 campaign until the end of year/early next year.
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I've played since the first edition through the various changes. The switch from 1st to 2nd edition made the rules from 1st ed useless. It was a pretty big change over in many ways. The switch from 2nd to 3rd was much easier as 3rd was more of a refinement on 2ed rules. I found the switch from 3rd to 4th to be similar in scope of 1st to 2nd making most, if not all the rules from 3rd useless. So if things hold true to form, the switch from 4th to 5th will be like 2nd to 3rd, more of a refinement than a rewrite and we'll be able to use much of the splat books and such.
However, just about all the books contain useful fluff for making the SR world live for your players. In that respect there are no useless books and I'll still refer to older books for fluff materials.
As a new GM though, you are probably better waiting for the 5th edition. However, if you decide to get the 4th ed stuff, it will probably be awhile before the equivalent expansion books for 5th are available. Right now you can play the full game with all the supplements. It will be quite awhile I imagine before a 5th ed. Arsenal or Augmentation for example is available. You could grab the core book bundle from DriveThruRPG as a PDF set for 4th ed and see how you like it.
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Yeah, they've told us there isn't a revolutionary remake of the core mechanics this edition, so you can feel confident that learning the core 4th edition mechanics isn't a complete waste of time. And playing any edition is valuable experience for you and your players getting used to the world and the shadowrunner job. Probaly don't want to invest too much time in learning the Matrix rules, since there seems some major change being put in place, with the return of decks and all.
As has been mentioned, you're best focusing on fluff. The Seattle guide is a great place to start. I'd take a look at the 2nd and 3rd edition Seattle guides as well. I've gotten a huge amount of shadowrun ideas from those books alone. SR novels are good too, but the quality of the writing can vary highly. Nyx Smith, Stephen Kenson, and Nigel Findley are really really good.
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The best way to get a grip of the setting is to read the novels. There are quite a few of them, and they're both fun and short reads.
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Thank you all very much for your input. Along with going over what you all posted and doing some additional research, I do plan on holding off game sessions until after the release of fifth edition, but it will give me a lot of time to read much of the additional material you've noted here. I do believe a world can only be as much fun as the life you breathe into it. Again I can't thank you all enough for your support and input.
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If your players are eager to play, I would advise you to start with SR4A and play now. By waiting you only risk them to loose interest. Then when SR5 is out it will be time to shift to SR5.
However, no need to by all the crunch books, you can really play with only the SR4A core rulebook (which I understand you already have) and by only background books from SR4 (location books like Seattle72, Runner's heavens, etc and plot books like clutch of dragons, dirty tricks, storm front).
That way, except SR4A core rulebooks, all other books will still be usable with SR5 (they contain little to no rule based information)
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Good idea, since if you only play with SR4a, it makes the switch to SR5 easier.
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Let's not forget that there is no rush to switch to SR5. Just like we aren't all using Windows 8, we don't absolutely have to switch to SR5 immediately upon release. I used D&D 3.5 for years after 4e came out... as in I've never switched to 4e. It's not technology, there's no rush to be cutting edge.
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I read the blogs posted about 5th edition, checked out the preview (though it didn't show anything in terms of gameplay), and I do like the changes they're talked about so far. In terms of waiting, none of my players had an issue with it when I brought the idea up to them. We have a sort of unique situation that we aren't really invested in particular game or edition of Shadowrun at this time, so I think waiting and giving 5th edition a shot is still the best course of action. It will also give us all some time to do some reading and familiarize ourselves with the world of Shadowrun (me more than anyone else as I've already read one of the novels, am tearing through Seattle 2072 and getting more novels to read). The worst that happens is we absolutely hate 5th edition, and then dive back into 4th, being that we've played it a few times before and always had fun. Had 5th ed. been planned for release in say, 4th quarter of the year, then I would be much more gung ho about getting the game going sooner, but all we really know about 5th edition is what the developers have released about it. Shadowrun is a fun game that seems to be extremely well developed as well as having a very immersive world, and I have no problem putting my time and money towards the core rulebook, even if in the end I don't like it. My players do have ideas for their characters, one being an Adept and another being a Hacker (soon to be changed back to Decker), and with the interesting changes to those two aspects of the game, I think will give them a nice idea as to whether or not they like the older rules vs. the new ones.
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Since I like running with all the toys that the players already experienced in a short campaign, I'm sticking to 4e until Extended Core is out in 5e, though I've already tossed in a few houserules based on 5e Initiative and Dodge. Wonder how I'll work in skill-progress past rating 6.
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Since I like running with all the toys that the players already experienced in a short campaign, I'm sticking to 4e until Extended Core is out in 5e, though I've already tossed in a few houserules based on 5e Initiative and Dodge. Wonder how I'll work in skill-progress past rating 6.
That's what I intend to do as well. If I can't use a lot of the sourcebook that offer different equipment and cybernetics (in particular things like Used Car Lot and Arsenal) then I may very well put off getting into 5e until they've gotten a chance to release some more updated material for it.
One question worth considering for your group is "Will we try to update our characters and bring them to 5e, or just make new characters entirely?". Since the editions are supposed to just be small time jumps. That's part of why I hope things like cybernetics or certain drones exist between editions (though it's always possible things were lost in the years between). Anyone know the exact date the new edition is taking place in?
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Given how they release in summer, I'm assuming June+ 2075 on launch.
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I'd say 2075 or 76. No official note on that but it makes sense as the current official game year is 2074. Sim Dreams and Nightmares lists the current date as Dec 27, 2074 and as that is the latest book I believe, that should be the latest date.
As for compatibility between editions, I imagine Arsenal and Augmentation should make the shift with little change crunch wise. Most of the guns and vehicles for example, for been in the game in one iteration or another from 1st edition. There has always been an Ares Predator and there has always been an GMC Banshee in the game. I don't see that changing with 5th ed (though if Ares woes continue...).
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The main issue with firearms would be the new Accuracy system, though. But vehicles should be fine, aside from hopefully a better vehicle-movement system.
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With the elimination of Initiative Passes and the addition of limits including for gear while the names and such of gear won't change how it works rule wise will be different in 5th edition.
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Passes aren't being eliminated, but the method by which they're gained is altered.
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The main issue with firearms would be the new Accuracy system, though. But vehicles should be fine, aside from hopefully a better vehicle-movement system.
I do not think that will be a big issue, the SR5 core rule book guns shall provide a good idea to extrapolate the accuracy of other guns... And if it turns wrong when new material is available it will be time to fix your values. You just have to make sure your players are aware that such a change can occur. Furthermore, if their guns turns out to be worst than expected, bying a new one is no big deal because guns are quite cheap.
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Does anyone know exactly how the new recoil will work? I read something about it stacking until you stop firing for a bit.
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Does anyone know exactly how the new recoil will work? I read something about it stacking until you stop firing for a bit.
Anyone who knows exactly how anything will work isn't allowed to say.
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I was more hoping for someone who also was at the initial introduction at PAX East. :) The poster who was there mentioned recoil stacking but no details as to what resets it (a simple action is probably enough though).
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I was more hoping for someone who also was at the initial introduction at PAX East. :) The poster who was there mentioned recoil stacking but no details as to what resets it (a simple action is probably enough though).
Which is more of a "some of how it might work" than "exactly how it will work". For example, just because all Accuracy at that event was 4 doesn't mean we should be assuming this to actually be the case.
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I got that part. -_- But they also explained it was just 4 for the event. Just like they gave an explanation on recoil. So the comparison is flawed.
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It isn't, actually - we have no basis to judge just how many things were set in a specific way for that event versus what was intended to be the finished product, any more than we have a basis to consider what might have changed since then.
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You're comparing a rule explanation to something they explained was a temporary setting that wouldn't be there in the final product, though. The first is a indication of how things likely will be in the finished product. The second is clearly noted as not resembling the finished product in any way. So the comparison is flawed.
Also, following your line of thought I'd have to scratch my 5e-houserules-for-4e until 5e is released. No intent of doing that. But since I won't get any more info on this one, I'll have to stick to 4e recoil instead for the entire campaign. Can't really go and introduce more limiting recoil rules after the campaign already started, so if I can't get a better indication of how things are likely to work, I'll just have to leave it out altogether.
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You have to, at the very least, acknowledge that your houserules are going to contain some notable inaccuracies, either due to not covering an element or covering one but doing so in a manner different to the way it actually winds up being in 5e.
However, it certainly is unfortunate that people who were there weren't all that forthcoming with further information when asked.
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"You have to, at the very least, acknowledge that your houserules are going to contain some notable inaccuracies."
I went through the entire 3e corebook trying to houserule as fair a fit for Initiative as I can muster for Astral and Matrix, including trying to figure out how the hell to implement an offline action for someone in the Matrix. Trust me when I say I know my system will contain even more inaccuracies than your comparison. That's why I was asking for more intel on recoil in the first place.
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For what it's worth, the precise verbiage was something along the lines of "recoil stacks for as long as you hold the trigger down". This would not seem to extend to semi-auto or short burst fire, and possible refers specifically to fully automatic firing, long bursts potentially included.
Additionally, I'm not sure if you're aware of the change to defense being Reaction + Intuition; it is unclear whether melee was any different on this front. I'd be curious to know how you're calculating PMS-Limits, as well.
And the comparison is plenty accurate - just because the Accuracy bit is specifically called out as not reflecting the final product does not mean it is the only such element; an explicit declaration is not required for each one.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on your comparison because you'll never convince me you did not pick the one rule that makes very little sense in comparison. Now if you'd grabbed Initiative, or Defense, or PMS limits, I'd have agreed with the stance that nothing's final. But the one thing that was just an event-stop-gap is just plain silly as far as I'm concerned.
And yes, I'm aware of the defense-change. The poster said Rea+Int was for both ranged and melee, I got a houserule on that including the melee skills and the bonus added by full defense. As for limits, I don't have those since I have zero intel on them. Keeping track of a different initiative score and a different dodge-system is already enough of a task when the printed characters need manual adjustment, with future prospect of a higher-than-six character improvement system but unfortunately without a recoil rule, because it's unfair to introduce that after chargen when they already bought weapons based on the 4e recoil rules.
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I have a suspicion that either the recoil change is for the uncompensated variety or that there will be different classes of compensators - those that apply once to a set of recoil, and those that apply to each burst seperately. Mind you, the actual function of recoil could even change, becoming an Accuracy reducer instead.
As for melee, to my recollection, the poster was unsure on the specifics, especially as to whether melee skill was still involved.
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Using the skill instead of Intuition will have a lesser impact than using the skill instead of having no bonus, so I'll settle with that. As for recoil, you got a good point that it might tie into 5e weapon stats so it would be a bad change to make for now, what with it possibly being geared at 5e weapons+mods, so not working right in 4e.
As for my houserules for Initiative and Dodge, here are their current versions:
Initiative:
- Reaction+Intuition+1d6 Initiative.
- +Xd6 Initiative instead of +X IP from boosts.
- Full Defense lowers your Initiative with 10, costing you the last IP instead of the current.
- +20 Initiative in Astral Projection.
- 2 IPs no actions when dropping out of Astral Projection.
- Cold Sim VR adds 2 Matrix Reaction and 1d6.
- Hot Sim adds another 2 Matrix Reaction and 1d6.
- Matrix IP Boosts add +2+1d6 Initiative each.
- When in AR/VR, your meat-Initiative without d6s is when you are first allowed to act in the meat.
- Combat Paralysis rolls d3s.
- From high to low, then reduce with 10 and again with anyone above zero, until none left.
- Injury penalties apply immediately to Initiative Score as well.
Dodge:
- Reaction + Intuition vs Ranged.
- Reaction + Intuition / Dodge(Melee) / UnarmedCombat(Block) / Clubs(Parry) / Blades(Parry) vs Melee.
- In Full Defense you can either add a bonus a second time, or add Gymnastics(Tumbling).
- Exception: Intuition cannot be added a second time, only Dodge / Gymnastics can be added to Rea+Int.
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... Why are you having AR work on Matrix initiative? That's completely contrary to the point of it - AR doesn't interfere with meatspace operation in any way (spam zones aside), and in fact helps (see: tacnets); everyone's using it pretty much constantly (smartlinks, for example, would have an AR feed).
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... Crap. Don't tell me I recalled the Matrix Iniative rules wrong... AH. Cold Sim vs Hot Sim. Thanks. Editing.