Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: VajraSupremus on <05-09-13/2125:01>
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Am I the only one who finds it to be a step-back to have Kevlar armor for SWAT in a world of Monofil fabric, Organoweave silks, and even ceramic-titanium plates?
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Not really considering that police departments are private corporations and kevlar is cheaper than those things. (One reason to become a Runner, better pay and hence better ability to get better stuff to keep your arse alive)
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I figured as much. I'm sure you see Kevlar in large quantities in the Barrens, also.
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Is it modern day kevlar or a superior futuretech? The kevlar threading is an improvement to armored clothing, so kevlar itself is being used in some innovative and superior ways.
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Shadowrun!Kevlar is probably a product improvement on IRL!Kevlar as well.
Then again, Shadowrun!Bullets are probably an improvement on IRL!Bellets too, so it evens out. :D
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What Canray said.
Honestly though a large swath of Arsenal felt so antiquated. Like a Cyberpunk2020 book. I was half expecting to see a combat cybermodem and a coupon for Kibbles(tm).
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Odds are they still use Kevlar as at least part of their armor. Single sheet of the stuff can do some pretty amazing things. As I like to point out, for Kevlar, the question isn't always "can it stop the bullet" but can it do so in a short enough distance not to kill you through blunt trauma. Same reason that I doubt anyone seriously considers spider silk as a component in armor, it tends to stretch, A lot.
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Odds are they still use Kevlar as at least part of their armor. Single sheet of the stuff can do some pretty amazing things. As I like to point out, for Kevlar, the question isn't always "can it stop the bullet" but can it do so in a short enough distance not to kill you through blunt trauma. Same reason that I doubt anyone seriously considers spider silk as a component in armor, it tends to stretch, A lot.
There are typically dozens of layers of Kevlar in a bullet-resistant vest.
People have been working for years on spider silk body armor. It is the Holy Grail of bullet-resistant materials. It is many times stronger than Kevlar, they just have to manage to mass produce enough of it.
While some types of spider silk are very stretchy (I've read that a pound of spider silk could stretch around the Equator) I have never heard or read anywhere that it would be anything but awesome for body armor.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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If it was made, a synthetic spidersilk suit of body armor would probably include a good deal of padding under the weave. As it would likely be difficult to pierce or slash through it, but wouldn't negate the kinetic energy of the blow, you'd be looking at blunt trauma. With the pads, it would likely mean you're getting some severe bruises, possibly even a cracked rib or internal injuries, but it beats the hell out of being dead. Note, however, that only applies to where the armor and padding cover.
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Odds are they still use Kevlar as at least part of their armor. Single sheet of the stuff can do some pretty amazing things. As I like to point out, for Kevlar, the question isn't always "can it stop the bullet" but can it do so in a short enough distance not to kill you through blunt trauma. Same reason that I doubt anyone seriously considers spider silk as a component in armor, it tends to stretch, A lot.
There are typically dozens of layers of Kevlar in a bullet-resistant vest.
People have been working for years on spider silk body armor. It is the Holy Grail of bullet-resistant materials. It is many times stronger than Kevlar, they just have to manage to mass produce enough of it.
While some types of spider silk are very stretchy (I've read that a pound of spider silk could stretch around the Equator) I have never heard or read anywhere that it would be anything but awesome for body armor.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Most spider silks can stretch three to five times their length. Their strength is usually comparable to steels but it's their toughness (a result of their ductility) that makes them of interest. There are other issues as well, such as a habit of shrinking when exposed to water (though i don;t think they stay shrunk after they dry). Only one piece of cloth has been made from spider silk, a golden cape (can't for the life of me remember the details) and I don't think it's been lab tested.
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Shadowrun!Kevlar is probably a product improvement on IRL!Kevlar as well.
Then again, Shadowrun!Bullets are probably an improvement on IRL!Bellets too, so it evens out. :D
There's two quotes that go well on this:
-In the battle between warhead and armour, warhead always wins
-If you can see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it.
This also applies to dragon (admitably, the warhead has to be a 'little' bigger). :)
I assume there will indeed be advances in Kevlar, and that it's used because it's still cheaper than that new YNF Softweave (or whatever it's called) from war. You can also add it in regular clothes so they provide some protection and don't look like armour. And some protection is always better than no protection.
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As it would likely be difficult to pierce or slash through it, but wouldn't negate the kinetic energy of the blow, you'd be looking at blunt trauma.
That is exactly opposite of how body armor works.
Soft body armor doesn't do jack-all vs piercing or slashing. What it does do is distribute blunt trauma.
A knife or arrow will go right through a bullet-resistant vest, by simply cutting the fibers.
A bullet gets caught by the fibers, which disperse the kinetic energy of the round over a much larger area. It doesn't negate the energy - only reactive armor does that. But it spreads the impact out.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Which is why a Trollbow is a valid build in Shadowrun. ;D
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The spidersilk could be enhanced with a factory designated coating of hydrophobic layering. Just enough to prevent the issue you spoke of, but not enough to otherwise prevent contact-vector chem attacks like the Chemical Resistance mod does.
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*Giggles Wickedly*
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Dikote.
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The spidersilk could be enhanced with a factory designated coating of hydrophobic layering. Just enough to prevent the issue you spoke of, but not enough to otherwise prevent contact-vector chem attacks like the Chemical Resistance mod does.
What I'm wondering is what happens if you give it a spray coat of Kevlar. Worm Silk has been shown to stop shrapnel surprisingly well with the same technique. Something old, something new... And again, it's not the spider-silks strength that's of interest, plenty of materials are that strong. What most materials are not is tough and that makes a whole world of difference.
i.e.
Carbon Fiber: Strong not Tough
Vulcanized rubber: Tough not Strong
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The spidersilk could be enhanced with a factory designated coating of hydrophobic layering. Just enough to prevent the issue you spoke of, but not enough to otherwise prevent contact-vector chem attacks like the Chemical Resistance mod does.
MIT is working with spider silk variants - some spider silk is hydrophobic (A) some is hydrophilic (B). So they string it together in different ways (AAAB, AAABA, AABB, etc) to see what happens.
The stretchy properties actually make it better, not worse, for body armor, because one of the weaknesses of Kevlar is that it breaks down as it disperses the energy, whereas the stretchiness of spider silk makes it better at soaking multiple rounds.
Did...did he just say "Dikote" and run?
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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*Giggles Wickedly*
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Dikote.
I HEARD THAT.
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MIT is working with spider silk variants - some spider silk is hydrophobic (A) some is hydrophilic (B). So they string it together in different ways (AAAB, AAABA, AABB, etc) to see what happens.
The stretchy properties actually make it better, not worse, for body armor, because one of the weaknesses of Kevlar is that it breaks down as it disperses the energy, whereas the stretchiness of spider silk makes it better at soaking multiple rounds.
Yes but if it's too stretchy then It won't stop the bullet, just catch it and let the deformation give you terminal internal damage. So you've got to get the mix right. Most armors of all kinds are trending towards composites not singular materials. So again, kevlar, ballistic nylon, and half a dozen other materials will not up and vanish simply because someone turns out a new material. It all get's incorporated. In addition, does anyone have any idea as to the biodegradability issues? Have they started adding preservatives or some such?
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Which is why a Trollbow is a valid build in Shadowrun. ;D
Wouldn't a Sasquatchbow be even better?
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Bows have been stealth-errata'd to maximum 8 Strength rather than 12. This also means the best you can do is 2 nethits for 12 damage, meaning that the only way to really pack a punch is taking a Quick Draw Martial Arts / Adept Power, Mercy Software from War! and hit with 2 arrows in 1 IP (which can only be done once per 2 IPs) for 24 damage.
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Which is why a Trollbow is a valid build in Shadowrun. ;D
Wouldn't a Sasquatchbow be even better?
Can't do sign-language and shoot a bow at the same time.
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Which is why a Trollbow is a valid build in Shadowrun. ;D
Wouldn't a Sasquatchbow be even better?
Can't do sign-language and shoot a bow at the same time.
It IS however, a form of communication.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Which is why a Trollbow is a valid build in Shadowrun. ;D
Wouldn't a Sasquatchbow be even better?
Can't do sign-language and shoot a bow at the same time.
It IS however, a form of communication.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Shorthand for "I don't want you to be alive any longer. Ever. Go away."
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Then Sasquatchbow has Rating 2 SuRGE for Shiva Arms. Sign away as you make pincushions of us all.
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Then Sasquatchbow has Rating 2 SuRGE for Shiva Arms. Sign away as you make pincushions of us all.
With two bows.
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Then Sasquatchbow has Rating 2 SuRGE for Shiva Arms. Sign away as you make pincushions of us all.
With two bows.
One bow, and a crossbow with a Smartlink for hip-firing. Much better that way.
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Yes but if it's too stretchy then It won't stop the bullet, just catch it and let the deformation give you terminal internal damage.
There are verified historical records in both Europe and China of people wearing silk, which would not stop arrows but would catch the arrowheads and allow the arrows to be removed without complex surgery as likely as not to cause more damage than it stopped given surgical and germ-knowledge of the time.
And since the thread seems to have been answered and is drifting anyway...
Quad crossbows. Smartlink and red laser sights don't apply their bonuses to dual-wielding by RAW, silly though I think that is. If you're going to do it, go big or go home.
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a modern cross bow can deliver somewhere in the range of 200 foot lbs of force... a modern .30-06 deals around 6x that much.
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a modern cross bow can deliver somewhere in the range of 200 foot lbs of force... a modern .30-06 deals around 6x that much.
Just a factoid, or are you making a point?
I'm low on coffee, it's impairing my ability to extrapolate.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Forgot the quote :-[
Yes but if it's too stretchy then It won't stop the bullet, just catch it and let the deformation give you terminal internal damage.
There are verified historical records in both Europe and China of people wearing silk, which would not stop arrows but would catch the arrowheads and allow the arrows to be removed without complex surgery as likely as not to cause more damage than it stopped given surgical and germ-knowledge of the time.
And since the thread seems to have been answered and is drifting anyway...
Quad crossbows. Smartlink and red laser sights don't apply their bonuses to dual-wielding by RAW, silly though I think that is. If you're going to do it, go big or go home.
You cannot compare an arrow to a bullet.
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a modern cross bow can deliver somewhere in the range of 200 foot lbs of force... a modern .30-06 deals around 6x that much.
You cannot compare an arrow to a bullet.
??? :o :( :P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Can you please use words so i can figure out if your confused, half those faces just make you come across as constipated. Mithlas was saying the silk shirts proved effective at reducing the damage done by arrows. I'm pointing out that an arrow is nothing compared to a bullet. it is 2070 after all.
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You compared an arrow to a bullet.
Then you stated that you cannot compare an arrow to a bullet.
I find irony amusing.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Could you just include a layer of the spidersilk over a normal armor, giving it the same impact armor and perfect ballistic defense? The armor would stop the silk from stretching much, and the silk would keep the bullet from penetrating... right?
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Could you just include a layer of the spidersilk over a normal armor, giving it the same impact armor and perfect ballistic defense? The armor would stop the silk from stretching much, and the silk would keep the bullet from penetrating... right?
Like i said, composites are the trend. Little kevlar, little silk, little carbon fiber, some ballistic nylon...
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And that flexible Titanium plating. Mmmm, titanium plating. *drools*
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Hey hey hey, keep it off the vest! it's worth more than your life.
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I can drool all I want, thank ya very much. If it bothers you then I'll gladly use the Sterilize spell on it for you.
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No worries.
Titanium is very corrosion resistant. (Including acid, so you're good if he's an alien, too.)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Does it resist mustard and ketchup?
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If you want the additional rustproofing, I can throw in an extended warranty, for a small fee.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Id Est, Platinium electroplating, and while you're at it, add in a solid rhodium ring, no make that chain mail.