Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Lucifer2072 on <05-14-13/0118:55>
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Hey there, I was wondering if anyone had any staples for day to day armor for my street sammy... Jacket, pants and mask... Thanks!
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I'm a fan of the 6Tees urban clothing line. Throw PPP slim and FFBA under it. Mod your clothes with an assortment of upgrades.
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What kind of upgrades? I'm sorry, still very new to this...
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Which books do you have access to? What's your Body attribute? What do you mean by day to day armor? Are you wanting something to wear out in public? You need advice on what to wear on a run?
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Currently just purchased the 5th edition book (coming out soon) but until then I think most of 'em. Body type of a soldier, 6' 180-190, shaved head, armor he can wear in public and on a run.
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I'm not sure how to answer now. 5th Edition isn't out yet, so there's no way to tell you what armor you'll use. As for what I said earlier, a Body attribute is one of the scores your character has. It's like constitution from D&D, if you're more familiar with that.
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That makes a lot of sense, would you mind if I talked to you a bit after it comes out and I learn how to play a bit more?
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I'd go with a Lined Coat for your day-to-day wear. Common enough that you won't stand out anywhere, and still provides reasonable protection. Some forearm and shin guards from the PPP line will help bring you to a solid 6/6. Not bad for your day to day wear. You'll want something heavier for actual work, obviously.
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Could you give me some examples of heavier armor I could talk to my gm about?
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Form-fitting Body Armor - Nonconductivity 6
Lined Coat - Chemical Protection 6
SecureTech PPP set (minus the Helmet and wearing either the leg or arm casings--not both).
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For actual work, what you get depends on your Body. Load up as heavy as you can go without encumbrance.
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And for his mask? Respirator or anything?
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Day to day, a mask draws all the wrong kind of attention. When you're on the job, I'd go with a Death Mask, if you can. +1 to intimidate, +0/+1 Armor, and acts as a gas mask. Just remember that a mask is only for those times when 'blending in' has gone out the window.
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Alternatively, there's the Ballistic Mask.
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Which, until you pull it up over your face just looks like a smock, unless you're using one of those rigid kinds.
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Guys, if he's going SR5, then Death Masks and Formfitting Body Armor likely aren't available at the start.
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How do you know? It's not out yet, is it?
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Hence the likely. Formfitting was in Arsenal in SR4, chances are it won't be in SR5 Core either.
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Hopefully it will be this time. Maybe certain types won't be spewing bile as much if it's in the core book.
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Hopefully it will be this time. Maybe certain types won't be spewing bile as much if it's in the core book.
Oh, please, people go out of their way to find a place to vent bile.
All I wanted to do was find out if I was doing a good job!!! :'(
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Hopefully it will be this time. Maybe certain types won't be spewing bile as much if it's in the core book.
Oh, please, people go out of their way to find a place to vent bile.
All I wanted to do was find out if I was doing a good job!!! :'(
That was just the nicest way I could put it. I'd have preferred to call it what I actually think it is.
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Urban explorer helmet with respirator etc might not look out of place on a bike/hoverboard courier/pizza delivery guy dodging traffic?
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Hence the likely. Formfitting was in Arsenal in SR4, chances are it won't be in SR5 Core either.
It did show up in SR2050 so it might. However if it does, it'll likely resemble the form in that book where it is a +X/+Y bonus (like a helmet) instead of being stackable and 1/2 encumbrance armor.
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Urban explorer helmet with respirator etc might not look out of place on a bike/hoverboard courier/pizza delivery guy dodging traffic?
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Delivery surcharge applies. Void where prohibited. Tamanous Pizza is a fully owned subsidiary of Ghoul Cab. We accept certified cred, numbered accounts, credit transfer and fresh metahuman bodies. Please tip generously. Drivers carry less than a quarter of a corpse.
*Extra hazard surcharge for corporate zones and live fire areas.
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Isn't just about anywhere a Tamanous ghoul shows up a live fire area?
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Isn't just about anywhere a Tamanous ghoul shows up a live fire area?
Only if they're expected.
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*walks in dramatically* Nobody... expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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But I was expecting my pizza. Guess I'll wait longer.
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Poke her with the SHARP PILLOWS
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Inquisition? As I expected . . .
As to OP's question:
There are, as I understand it, 5 distinct layers for armor, not counting implants or natural armor. All of them can hold modifications like elemental prots or stealth helpers:
Second Skin
Form Fitting Body Armor
Armor (i.e. full armor suits, riot gear, armored clothing, etc. This is where most of the armor falls)
Securetech PPP systems
Coat (greatcoat, lined coat, etc,)
For mods, I'd suggest covering the damage your mostly likely to run into (electric and fire are usually at the top). Don't forget gel packs!
Helmets can be handy, especially if you're wearing a full armor suit and can incorporate a RIG system and a chemical seal. They're not mandatory though, as most of the other functionality can be put into eyeware and your commlink.
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Even on an average street sammy, you aren't going to be wearing all of those layers of armor, or you won't be able to move. Even less armor if yer rockin' an elf sammy. If you're going full troll or ghoul, sure, you can load up on the armor, but you aren't gonna wanna wander through town looking like that. Some armored clothes added to your dermal plating or orthoskin, and maybe an armored vest, jacket, or lined coat depending on the type of club your hitting, and you're good. Heck, that set-up can even carry you through some runs if you're quick about ducking.
As far as defense goes, the best defense is always a great offense. Corpsec ain't shootin' at you if'n they're on the ground twitchin' from a series of stick n' shocks.
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"Daily ware" is relative.
What you wear to meet a corporate Johnson is very different from what you wear to meet a bunch of gangers down in Orktown. And those are different from what you'd wear to meet the local Yakusza underboss. Wear the wrong clothes and you risk offending your contact. That's why it's important to have a good mix of etiquette skills in your party.
For runs, the armor you wear on an a covert infiltration is different from what you'd wear cleaning out a hive of Mantis spirits out in the Barrens.
Seriously, you need to buy several sets of armor for different occasions so you can "dress for the weather."
All this assumes you have a GM who understands the genera and enforces it.
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This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
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This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
Good luck finding a GM who lets you get away with BS like that.
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This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
Good luck finding a GM who lets you get away with BS like that.
Considering that the only thing the SoftWeave is mitigating is the extra from Delta Amyloid, it isn't BS. What would be BS would be if someone tried putting those two things on the FFBA suit.
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This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
Good luck finding a GM who lets you get away with BS like that.
Considering that the only thing the SoftWeave is mitigating is the extra from Delta Amyloid, it isn't BS. What would be BS would be if someone tried putting those two things on the FFBA suit.
Some would interpret that RAI is that you can only count it once for the "outfit" armours.
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This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
Good luck finding a GM who lets you get away with BS like that.
Considering that the only thing the SoftWeave is mitigating is the extra from Delta Amyloid, it isn't BS. What would be BS would be if someone tried putting those two things on the FFBA suit.
Some would interpret that RAI is that you can only count it once for the "outfit" armours.
And I have my opinion of those sorts that I won't get into.
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Street Sammy with Body 5, Strength 3(5), Orthoskin R2 with YNT Softweave Armored Jacket, and PPP ensemble (-helmet) worn under clothing gets to 12/12 Armor for casual every day use.
A bit conspicuous in more corporate environments but will have no issues waltzing around town. Keep a Ballistic Mask in your pocket and voila! 14/13 total armor. btw, I find it a bit silly to have overall armor increasing by slapping on a mask but this is a game so...
For runs replace the Armored Jacket with a YNT Softweave Camo suit (Urban/Graphite) and you got same result.
For more civilized environments use standard issue Auctioneer Clothing (in the style that matches the environs) and you should be fine.
Anyway, in the places were you are wearing that kind of armor, if you get shot, you are doing it wrong.
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Considering that the only thing the SoftWeave is mitigating is the extra from Delta Amyloid, it isn't BS. What would be BS would be if someone tried putting those two things on the FFBA suit.
Using multiple cases of Delta Amyloid is extremly questionable and probably not something most GM:s would allow.
And trying to benefit mulltiple times from SoftWeave is pretty much straight up against the rules.
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RAW, someone with multiple pieces of SoftWeave is a grey area. I see nothing in the RAW or RAI that says you cannot do it, but without restrictions, it is prone to abuse. Most likely, I would take one of two approaches to this:
1) Total the B/I of all armor with softweave, and reduce that total by STR, then add in the non-softweave stuff as normal to calculate encumbrance.
2) Phonebook the person until they removed the softweave from all but one item, or accepted ruling 1.
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Soft Weave reduces the highest rating of worn armor by users strength, there's only ever one single highest value.
There's actually no indication what so ever that you could gain the benefit on multiple differend pieces.
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RAW, someone with multiple pieces of SoftWeave is a grey area. I see nothing in the RAW or RAI that says you cannot do it, but without restrictions, it is prone to abuse. Most likely, I would take one of two approaches to this:
1) Total the B/I of all armor with softweave, and reduce that total by STR, then add in the non-softweave stuff as normal to calculate encumbrance.
2) Phonebook the person until they removed the softweave from all but one item, or accepted ruling 1.
Soft Weave reduces the highest rating of worn armor by users strength, there's only ever one single highest value.
There's actually no indication what so ever that you could gain the benefit on multiple differend pieces.
And my response to both of these is to "phone book" the GM until he gets his panties out of a wad over something so insignificant.
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And my response to both of these is to "phone book" the GM until he gets his panties out of a wad over something so insignificant.
And the GM just throws you out of the game for being a weaselly rules lawyer.
And extra 6/2 armor isn't insignificant.
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As Max said, an extra 6/2 armor is VERY significant, and CAN change the balance of the game. Also, such characters may find themselves on the receiving end of more direct combat spells at high force, as well as burst fire white phosphorus grenades in enclosed spaces. It is only the gentlemen's agreement between players and DMs that keeps an arms race from developing. And the DM always wins an arms race in the end.
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*snrk*
Now you have a post to link to, when A4BG complains about optimizers the next time ::)
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I'm pretty indifferent about whether you can use that mod on multiple piece of a set of fashion clothing armor. It's not like that' 6/2 makes the armor rating amazing. Throw a single delta amyloid on the steampunk clothing set. That's 10/8 right there. Also, none of this bypasses the encumbrance rule, so you still need a high enough body to support high armor ratings.
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I'm pretty indifferent about whether you can use that mod on multiple piece of a set of fashion clothing armor. It's not like that' 6/2 makes the armor rating amazing. Throw a single delta amyloid on the steampunk clothing set. That's 10/8 right there. Also, none of this bypasses the encumbrance rule, so you still need a high enough body to support high armor ratings.
They were throwing a hissy over the SoftWeave on 'em too (even though all that would be mitigated using the attributes I stated as an assumption is that from the add-on).
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I'm pretty indifferent about whether you can use that mod on multiple piece of a set of fashion clothing armor. It's not like that' 6/2 makes the armor rating amazing. Throw a single delta amyloid on the steampunk clothing set. That's 10/8 right there. Also, none of this bypasses the encumbrance rule, so you still need a high enough body to support high armor ratings.
Actually the cheese he's advocating for does exactly that, the Delta Amyloids give 9/3 armor boos of witch only the 3 points of impact count for encumbrance.
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As far as Delta-Amyloid goes I've always read "these modifications can be added to regular clothing or to armor clothing (p. 326, SR4A)" (pg 160 attitude) to mean that the only armoured clothing it can be applied to is the armored clothing entry on page 326 of the rulebook.
Has there been anything stating anything other than that?
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I'm pretty indifferent about whether you can use that mod on multiple piece of a set of fashion clothing armor. It's not like that' 6/2 makes the armor rating amazing. Throw a single delta amyloid on the steampunk clothing set. That's 10/8 right there. Also, none of this bypasses the encumbrance rule, so you still need a high enough body to support high armor ratings.
Actually the cheese he's advocating for does exactly that, the Delta Amyloids give 9/3 armor boos of witch only the 3 points of impact count for encumbrance.
You'll have to explain why you think that.
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I'm pretty indifferent about whether you can use that mod on multiple piece of a set of fashion clothing armor. It's not like that' 6/2 makes the armor rating amazing. Throw a single delta amyloid on the steampunk clothing set. That's 10/8 right there. Also, none of this bypasses the encumbrance rule, so you still need a high enough body to support high armor ratings.
Actually the cheese he's advocating for does exactly that, the Delta Amyloids give 9/3 armor boos of witch only the 3 points of impact count for encumbrance.
You'll have to explain why you think that.
Here's what Guns put up.
This assumes a Body of 5 with Strength 3.
Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Suit
-Biomonitor
-Nonconductivity 6
Synergist High-collar Shirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Slacks/Skirt
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
Synergist Longcoat
-Delta Amyloid
-YNT SoftWeave
-Concealable Holster
-Concealable Holster
Vitals Protector
Leg Casings
Forearm Guards
Shin Guards
Now, a 5 Body would give a max of 10/10 on the armor without penalties. That setup, if allowed to work the way he says it does, gives 6/2 on the FFBA, 4/1 on the Shirt, 4/2 on the Slacks, 7/3 on the long coat, and +3/+3 with the PPP. Total of 24/11 armor, which he says would count as 12/10 (3/1 FFBA, 1/1 Shirt, 1/2 Slacks, 4/3 Coat, 3/3 PPP) for encumbrance. So if you share what he's smoking, he takes a -1 Encumbrance penalty on something that would otherwise cost him a -7 penalty. If you can't see where the cheese in this is, or why it is worthy of the phonebook, then we're going to have to have a long hard talk about this thing I like to call "game balance". This kind of drek is no different from crap like Pun-pun, the War Hulking Hurler, and all the other insane crap that gets put up on the WOTC forums by optimizers. Any DM who allows this into their game should be forced to walk back and forth across a floor covered in legos barefoot until it stops being funny.
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You'll have to explain why you think that.
Delta Amyloid add 3/1, he's advocating that you can but it separately on all pices of your armored clothing set in this case its x3 so that would be 9/3.
Then he's advocating that you can get those pieces with soft.weave witch reduces the highest value of worn armor by strength for the purpose of endurance and he's trying to cheese it so that reduction applies separately to all 3 pieces effectively reducing the armor gained from Amyloyds to 0/3 for endurance calculation.
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And this is why I really like 5Es No layering/encumbrance on base armor and encumbrance limit on the + pieces.
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How it is in 4E isn't bad, as long as you slap down people who try to do obviously broken crap like what Guns was saying. Phonebooking has kept many a game free of cheese like that, or D&D equivalents such as the +1 Sword with use-activated True Strike (a spell that gives +20 on your next attack roll). Except that while the Sword of True Striking is completely rules legal, Guns is in a grey area with his example, and it reeks of cheese worse than a Packers fan who hasn't bathed since their last Super Bowl win.
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A picture paints a thousand words, so a moving picture must paint a thousand thousand words. So I'll just leave a little gif to show my reaction to a gaming group where a character had that sort of armour (mainly because I think it's funny). I'm not saying it's wrong to play that way. If the entire group, including GM is cool with it, fair dos. Just expect the Mooks to do the same.
(http://i.imgur.com/SpwsI.gif)
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It's my understanding of the (poorly written) YNT Softweave rules that they effect the encumbrance of worn armor as a whole, and don't "stack" for multiple pieces. IE, you subtract your strength from the total of ALL worn armor, not piece by piece.
It's kind of like if you put non-conductivity into all of those armor pieces: you don't add them together, you just use the highest number.
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I'm still not sure I understand. The delta amyloid adds armor. It is not an encumbrance-free armor addition. The problem isn't the delta amyloid being applied to multiple pieces. I wouldn't ever do that, but it doesn't do anything cheesy. If someone claimed it didn't figure into encumbrance calculations, then that would definitely invoke the GM's wrath, and rightfully so. That set of armor's encumbrance would be -10 or -11(I seriously hate rounding in SR3, which way does it go for this?). He'd be pretty resistant to damage, but insanely slow. I tried out a character that had tons of armor and 2 initiative. It didn't turn out well. Going last is a bad situation.
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I'm still not sure I understand. The delta amyloid adds armor. It is not an encumbrance-free armor addition. The problem isn't the delta amyloid being applied to multiple pieces. I wouldn't ever do that, but it doesn't do anything cheesy. If someone claimed it didn't figure into encumbrance calculations, then that would definitely invoke the GM's wrath, and rightfully so. That set of armor's encumbrance would be -10 or -11(I seriously hate rounding in SR3, which way does it go for this?). He'd be pretty resistant to damage, but insanely slow. I tried out a character that had tons of armor and 2 initiative. It didn't turn out well. Going last is a bad situation.
Softweave reduces highest rating of worn armor for encumbrance by the characters strength attribute(3 in this case) and the way he's trying to ably it too to all those 3 pieces effectvily makes amyloid count as 0/1 for encumbrance.
I don't know how much clearer i can make this.
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Softweave reduces highest rating of worn armor for encumbrance by the characters strength attribute(3 in this case) and the way he's trying to ably it too to all those 3 pieces effectvily makes amyloid count as 0/1 for encumbrance.
Yeah, the SoftWeave would mitigate the Delta Amyloid, but that is all that it mitigates. It would be just like you were wearing the pieces listed without it, and no that isn't cheese, it is merely using what is available to its full capability. Calling is cheese is like calling it cheese to fire in Full Auto with a Heavy Machine Gun.
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I dunno, I think it's pretty clear that YNT SoftWeave only applies once to a character. I mean, why else would it have to specify "highest armor rating of worn armor" if it instead was "armor rating of the armor this modification is applied to"?
Also, no one mentions the bit of cheese in counting both his pants and shirt as separate pieces of armor for the sake of doubling the bonus of Delta Amyloid? That's getting close to saying "I've got modded socks, a modded tie, modded boxer pants, and I'm wearing this cute little delta amyloid armband. That's 12/4 before I'm even dressed enough to leave the house!" I'm pretty sure it needs to be more or less a full set of clothing for the entire bonus to be applicable. You don't get the stats from riot gear just by putting on the boots.
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Dermal-Sheathed Nudist. ;D
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Also, no one mentions the bit of cheese in counting both his pants and shirt as separate pieces of armor for the sake of doubling the bonus of Delta Amyloid?
He did that because they are, in fact, listed as separate pieces of armor, Arsenal p.46. The long running discussion both with those suits of clothing and the Securetech PPP is whether you mod the individual pieces, or the set as a whole.
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Let's put it this way then, if you take the number crunching that some sorts throw around here then it would maybe come to 3 more damage soaked. If that's cheese then I call that silliness.
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Some armor clothing items have rather low armor ratings
when worn individually, but are designed to be worn together
with other garments as part of an ensemble. Add the armor values
of each piece worn together as an outfit and note the result as the
Ballistic and Impact ratings of the whole ensemble, ignoring the
rule that only the highest armor value of each piece of armor applies
(see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 161, SR4A) in this case only.
After calculating the result of the combined pieces of armor
clothing, this result becomes the character’s armor value and is
subject to the usual rules concerning Armor and Encumbrance.
Clothing lines whose components may be combined in this manner
are noted with a (c) on the tables. pg.45 arsenal
so its is my understading that if you want to count that armour together without encumberance you have to wear it as an outfit (essentially it becomes one armour that is made up of smaller pieces) woulndt that mean you needed to pay the cost once, get the benifet once and have it apply to the whole ensemble...
i would even go so far as to say you would only benifet from a limited amout of bonus based on how much of the ensemble you wear but for the sake of less math would continue to give the bonus even if say the jacket was removed (in this case the 2/1 for shirt and slacks plus the 3/1 gives a final result of 5/2, not bad for a buisness shirt an pants)
this would clear up your softweave as well, only costs once, only applies once and counts baesd on what you wear (takes 3 point off no matter how many pieces you wear.
Am i missing something here or does that make sense...
and now to open a whole new kettle of fish, the enhancments mentioned in Attitude pg.160 state Carbon-boron infusion, Kevlar threading, and Delta-amyloid coatings are available.
To me that sounds like 3 different techniques that could all be used together (one is pushed/soaked into fabirc, the next is a replacemt of some of the threding and the last is a coating on the outside of the fabric). how would people feel about these stacking and would you apply a some penalty (i could see the fabric becoming very stiff, or just looking wrong with so much modification...)
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Your first quote makes a lot of sense, Muscular. That for the sake of upgrades, you essentially make one "outfit" by combining different pieces of armor, and what's on one is assumed to actually apply to all of them. Sadly, Chummer doesn't support this very fluidly, but if I was handling it personally in my own game that is probably how I would work it.
Your last one sounds like a GM call to me. Bringing up the Chummer character creation program again (even though I just said we didn't see eye to eye) the creator of that sees them as stackable. That brings Armored Clothing up to 10/3 and presumably doesn't look out of place. That's some high ballistic armor for someone in street clothes. That kind of fits the high-end military technology of Shadowrun, but how obvious it is would be up to the GM. For one, it'd be immediately obvious upon touching the material, for sure.
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Dermal-Sheathed Nudist. ;D
I wish they had put in more mods for this. Particularly after holowear became a thing, and a full RPC dermal sheath became a cybersuite.
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In all seriousness, the only sensible way to look at it, is that those items of clothing combine to be one outfit, which has one armour rating that is the sum of its parts. You then apply delta amyloid to the ensemble as one thing, and softweave to that. Adding a total of 3/1 to armour rating and reducing the 3 to 0 for encumbrance.
A4BGs way you may as well just wear 7 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers with DA and softweave added to each seeing as you're already extracting the urine so much. It doesn't say in the rules you can't!!!! ::)
It doesn't say "highest rating armour(s)". Apply it once. The different options of clothing are so you can design a suit of armour that fits your character's style, not so you can build magic tank armour out of cotton.