Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ted Fast on <06-08-13/1622:43>
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One of my players have picked up a Morrissey Élan hold-out pistol as a legal concealed carry weapon and now I noticed this
Composed entirely of polyresin materials, the Élan cannot be detected by
magnetic anomaly detectors (MADs) and thus may be the epitome of concealability.
That got me thinking, should their be any special rules for modding the Morrissey Élan?
Seems to me like it has the Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3 already although it isn't made explicitly clear in the text.
So should any mods added to the Morrissey Élan have it's cost multiplied by 6 and is availability sett to 20F or is that a really dumb idea?
Do you have any better suggestion?
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We use the very idea you are talking about, that is, use the rules for ceramic/plasteel components found on pg 150 of Arsenal. At least you can mod the Elan. The very nice HK Urban Fighter can't be modified at all and it uses the same rules.
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One of my players have picked up a Morrissey Élan hold-out pistol as a legal concealed carry weapon and now I noticed this
Composed entirely of polyresin materials, the Élan cannot be detected by
magnetic anomaly detectors (MADs) and thus may be the epitome of concealability.
That got me thinking, should their be any special rules for modding the Morrissey Élan?
Seems to me like it has the Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3 already although it isn't made explicitly clear in the text.
So should any mods added to the Morrissey Élan have it's cost multiplied by 6 and is availability sett to 20F or is that a really dumb idea?
Do you have any better suggestion?
well, the player has a choice. If he mods it with "regular" mods, then the gun loses it "undetectably to MADs" as the components with trigger the MAD. IF he want to keep it a stealth pistol, then he's got to pay out for it.
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Some mods will conflict, others won't. You should sit down with your GM and consider this - does the Hi-Power mod, by nature, require easily-detectable parts, or is it just a different shape?
Some mods are a no-brainer. The appearance mod is, by its nature, bulky and noticeable. You just aren't getting a Trekkie Phaser through security without some fast-talking. On the other hand, a Weapon Focus isn't any more visible to a scanner. The wagemage, however...
Things like the Smartgun system, generally no issue. Redundant Process Manufacturing? That's gonna show.
What mods do you have in mind?
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
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Some mods will conflict, others won't. You should sit down with your GM and consider this - does the Hi-Power mod, by nature, require easily-detectable parts, or is it just a different shape?
Some mods are a no-brainer. The appearance mod is, by its nature, bulky and noticeable. You just aren't getting a Trekkie Phaser through security without some fast-talking. On the other hand, a Weapon Focus isn't any more visible to a scanner. The wagemage, however...
Things like the Smartgun system, generally no issue. Redundant Process Manufacturing? That's gonna show.
What mods do you have in mind?
I've got a back up character worked out with a modded Elan so I'd be interested in your thoughts on a silencer. Otherwise mine's just modded with a personalised grip, which isn't going to be a problem, and a smartgun system.
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Some mods will conflict, others won't. You should sit down with your GM and consider this - does the Hi-Power mod, by nature, require easily-detectable parts, or is it just a different shape?
Some mods are a no-brainer. The appearance mod is, by its nature, bulky and noticeable. You just aren't getting a Trekkie Phaser through security without some fast-talking. On the other hand, a Weapon Focus isn't any more visible to a scanner. The wagemage, however...
Things like the Smartgun system, generally no issue. Redundant Process Manufacturing? That's gonna show.
What mods do you have in mind?
I've got a back up character worked out with a modded Elan so I'd be interested in your thoughts on a silencer. Otherwise mine's just modded with a personalised grip, which isn't going to be a problem, and a smartgun system.
Silencers, from my admittedly limited knowledge of firearms, add a cylinder to the end of a gun, to disperse sound and make it harder to detect the location of the shot. In the case of arms like a shotgun, it seems to make them even louder.
Such components, by factory default, are noticeable on scanners, but can be built from plasteel/ceramic components, as per the mod. Silencers are a separate item, one that can be removed and replaced shortly, but also one that visibly changes the base size of the item in question. To summarize, the grip isn't an issue, smartgun systems are almost entirely electronic, so a non-issue, but the silencer, to be equally effective, should be modded itself, and as a precaution, should be stored apart from everything else.
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Largely agree with that, although it's specifically a silencer mod rather than accessory, which says to me it becomes integral.
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You want concealable? Morrissey Élan with easy breakdown. The only way anyone is noticing that sucker is by pinging the ammo.
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And there exists ammo for that, if I recall correctly. Lousy damage but still.
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
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I incorrectly recalled them having a damage penalty. Instead, all they have at normal range is no benefit like other expensive ammo.
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Just don't walk by a Chemsniffer :p
At the very least it will pick up the propellant, if not all that nasty stuff...
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Just don't walk by a Chemsniffer :p
At the very least it will pick up the propellant, if not all that nasty stuff...
Thats what the chemically sealed mags are for 8)
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Just don't walk by a Chemsniffer :p
At the very least it will pick up the propellant, if not all that nasty stuff...
Thats what the chemically sealed mags are for 8)
:D
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
And that exactly is the reason not a single one of my characters owns a burst-fire-modded Thunderstruck Gauss rifle.
Even though I REALLY like the idea ... and the design ... and that thing is pure awesomeness :(
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
And that exactly is the reason not a single one of my characters owns a burst-fire-modded Thunderstruck Gauss rifle.
Even though I REALLY like the idea ... and the design ... and that thing is pure awesomeness :(
not sure if you could hit anything with a burst fire Thunderstruck... seeing as HMGs and assault cannons double uncompensated recoil... and the only thing you can really use on a magnetic accelerated weapon would be a gyro mount.....
Give you props for the sheer "OMG WTF?!!?!!" factor though :P
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
And that exactly is the reason not a single one of my characters owns a burst-fire-modded Thunderstruck Gauss rifle.
Even though I REALLY like the idea ... and the design ... and that thing is pure awesomeness :(
not sure if you could hit anything with a burst fire Thunderstruck... seeing as HMGs and assault cannons double uncompensated recoil... and the only thing you can really use on a magnetic accelerated weapon would be a gyro mount.....
Give you props for the sheer "OMG WTF?!!?!!" factor though :P
I guess tripods would help too, as would Electronic Firing, Heavy Barrel, Underbarrel Weight (at least according to RAW) ... and then there is the 25 dice to roll for the attack plus taking aim (the one character I REALLY want that for is a Longe Range Fire Support Specialist).
I can live with that for 12P with AP/half - 4 ;)
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
And that exactly is the reason not a single one of my characters owns a burst-fire-modded Thunderstruck Gauss rifle.
Even though I REALLY like the idea ... and the design ... and that thing is pure awesomeness :(
not sure if you could hit anything with a burst fire Thunderstruck... seeing as HMGs and assault cannons double uncompensated recoil... and the only thing you can really use on a magnetic accelerated weapon would be a gyro mount.....
Give you props for the sheer "OMG WTF?!!?!!" factor though :P
I guess tripods would help too, as would Electronic Firing, Heavy Barrel, Underbarrel Weight (at least according to RAW) ... and then there is the 25 dice to roll for the attack plus taking aim (the one character I REALLY want that for is a Longe Range Fire Support Specialist).
I can live with that for 12P with AP/half - 4 ;)
Not sure you can take aim, then fire bursts.... will have to read that section again when I have the time. Assault cannons can not accept ANY barrel mods if I recall (again, have to re-read the section again and do not have my PDFs or DTF on hand, but you do make an interesting point)
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You mean caseless, Hi-C Plastic rounds in a chem seales clip? Expensive but nearly undetectable.
I carry an Elan with those on every single char.
Capsule rounds in chem seals are just as undetectable.
But if you fill 'em with DMSO'd Slab, Narcoject, Gammascopolamine, Novascorpion Venom or Ringu if you can get your hands on it... They're a LOT more effective than those plastic or ceramic bullets.
Problem is: my GM tends to "borrow" such ideas and use them against us some time later, so I'll keep the Hi-C rounds I think ;)
Speaking AS a GM: "if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander"
And that exactly is the reason not a single one of my characters owns a burst-fire-modded Thunderstruck Gauss rifle.
Even though I REALLY like the idea ... and the design ... and that thing is pure awesomeness :(
not sure if you could hit anything with a burst fire Thunderstruck... seeing as HMGs and assault cannons double uncompensated recoil... and the only thing you can really use on a magnetic accelerated weapon would be a gyro mount.....
Give you props for the sheer "OMG WTF?!!?!!" factor though :P
I guess tripods would help too, as would Electronic Firing, Heavy Barrel, Underbarrel Weight (at least according to RAW) ... and then there is the 25 dice to roll for the attack plus taking aim (the one character I REALLY want that for is a Longe Range Fire Support Specialist).
I can live with that for 12P with AP/half - 4 ;)
had some time on my hands and I read the take Aim on page 148 SR4a.... says nothing about the firing mode of the shot (SS, SA, BF, FA) so I imagine you could use "take Aim" and then fire a burst.
However, reading the Assault cannon entry again, they DOUBLE the recoil, not the uncompensated recoil (big difference), then in an other area they say Uncompensated recoil (huh? um, conflict there??) But at least with the Uncompensated recoil entry, they provide an example.
Some things to note and remember about recoil mods to are:
[Arsenal book page 148 bold facing by me]
Restrictions to Recoil Compensation
Not all methods of recoil compensation are cumulative in
their effect:
• Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod,
foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are
not cumulative with each other (except that the compensation
from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall
recoil compensation of 2).
• Recoil compensation from a folding stock, hip pad, rigid
stock, shock pad, or sling are not cumulative with each other
.
• Recoil compensation from a gas-vent system is not cumulative
with that from any other gas-vent system.
• Recoil compensation from electronic firing and personalized
grip are not cumulative with each other.
• Recoil compensation from a heavy barrel is cumulative with
all other recoil compensations
Oh, and I was wrong again about something (imagine THAT!)
[Arsenal book page 29, bold facing by me]
All machine guns and assault cannons can be equipped with
top-, barrel-, and under barrel mounted accessories, unless otherwise
noted. They cannot use silencers or sound suppressors and
suffer from double recoil modifiers (see Recoil, p. 142, SR4). Firing
these weapons requires the Heavy Weapons skill.
and the entry for the thunderstuck says nothing about barrel mods...
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Guess you have an old PDF of Arsenal? The correct page reference for recoil is 152, not 142 as your quote shows. As for any confusion about how they intend recoil to work, that reference should sort it out. The doubled recoil penalty as shown on pg 152 of SR4A is for uncompensated recoil.
Good catch on the gasventing though, not that I've ever had a player suggest you could do this anyway. Just in case others think gas vents would work on such a weapon.
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Take Aim requires a Simple Action firing after it. So Short Burst and single-rounds only.
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I believe that it does specify that 'Called Shots' can only be taken with semi-automatic or short bursts.
Take aim has no such restriction, thus if you find a way to take aim as a free action (EG with a martial art) then you can start 'sniping' with full auto at extreme range.
That, my friends, is Shock and Awe. for extra points, use tracers.