Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: nikolamat on <06-15-13/0631:10>
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I've played two rpgs before (Pathfinder and Rogue Trader) but now I'm a GM. I'm a first time GM and I've never played shadowrun before. First of all should I wait for fifth edition or just play 4th? What is changed in fifth edition? Also are there any places where I could find paranormal creatures? I've read through parazoology but there were only f-ed up animals. My group wants something more fantasy in the creatures. Something "Classic" like the Cyclops or Ghouls and weird stuff like Otyugh from pathfinder. Are there any forums/books where I can find stats for them (of course most of the will be prime runners or lieutenants because well you wouldn't want to fight 5 cyclops at a time :P).
And will it be a viable explanation for the appearance of these creatures that the corporations were tampering with magic trying to weaponise it and somehow this came out, or maybe they were a failed experiment for trying to create super soldiers. Also what exactly are sourcebooks? Do they contain rules or only setting? Also I will be playing with 2/3 player characters (not sure if one of us is gonna play) should I increase their starting BP or will they be OK?
Edit: WOW im an idiot. I just read the paracritters page looks like there are the "classics" but there still isnt a lot of weird and new stuff so where can i find guides on how to create stats for them? Or maybe complete stats for some of them. MY group wants something new and surprising every week
Edit 2: also without the CR rating how do i know if the group is too weak to fight something and end up killing them?
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I've played two rpgs before (Pathfinder and Rogue Trader) but now I'm a GM. I'm a first time GM and I've never played shadowrun before. First of all should I wait for fifth edition or just play 4th? What is changed in fifth edition?
If you have the 20th Anniversary book, definitely start playing. If not, it depends on your finances. (I just paid 37$ for the new book by pre ordering on Amazon) The central mechanic of the game, skill plus attribute, is remaining the same. In addition, much of the magic system is remaining the same. I'd shy a way from decking and vehicle combat, unless you really like them, as they are going under a large overhaul. One of the major changes in this edition will be the inroductions of Limits, based upon both attributes and equipment. So let us say you make a character really optimized for firearms and have 24 dice to toss. Using less than the best equipment, or having subpar physical attributes, may limit how many successes you can count when tossing those 24 dice. You still get to toss them all. So a Limit of 8 means you can get 8 max successes. One of the nice effects is it cuts down on cumbersome dice rolling many of us are familiar with.
Also are there any places where I could find paranormal creatures? I've read through parazoology but there were only f-ed up animals. My group wants something more fantasy in the creatures. Something "Classic" like the Cyclops or Ghouls and weird stuff like Otyugh from pathfinder. Are there any forums/books where I can find stats for them (of course most of the will be prime runners or lieutenants because well you wouldn't want to fight 5 cyclops at a time ).
And will it be a viable explanation for the appearance of these creatures that the corporations were tampering with magic trying to weaponise it and somehow this came out, or maybe they were a failed experiment for trying to create super soldiers.
You have the right book, and it is correct that SR critters are mostly just f*ed up animals. Ghouls and Vampires exist, but are caused by a magical infection. The kind of creatures you want, D&D style creatures born by alchemists working in labs don't really exist, at least not in canon as far as I'm aware. You can put them in if you want, but the explanations for why they are there fall to you, as well as there stats. You can use existing monsters with similar powers to get ideas, as well as give these monsters attributes of similar sized critters.
You might look into things like Wendigos, Insect spirits and totems, Vampires, and Blood Magic, and Blood Spirits. These might give you some of the flavor you are looking for, while staying in the realm of what has been written in there in the past. Be aware that they can be quite challenging to players though. Barghests and Hellhounds are great in packs too. Barghests paralyze and Hellhounds breathe fire and are fast as hell. There's all sorts of spirits. There's powerful free spirits, some of them quite evil. (Like the Jester Spirit in the Super Nintendo SR video game)
There's also a lot of technological horrors in SR. There were experiments with putting technomancer brains in jars, at which point said brains went insane. There was a large module concerning the Renraku Shutdown when an Artificial Intelligence went mad and kidnapped a ton of people with a drone army. There's my favorite doberman guard dogs with wired reflexes.
In the end, you can put what you want into your game, but it might be more work for you if it's something not in any books.
Also what exactly are sourcebooks? Do they contain rules or only setting?
Sourcebooks sometimes contain rules and sometimes setting only. It's best to do some online research or ask questions here before buying. Sometimes the actual authors are on these boards. You generally want the magic book for each edition, which was Street Magic last time. The books for cyberware, decking, and the gear book are also important to many groups. I wouldn't suggest worrying about 4th edition extra books at this time though with a new edition upon us.
Also I will be playing with 2/3 player characters (not sure if one of us is gonna play) should I increase their starting BP or will they be OK?
It's generally optimal to have 3 or 4 players. It's harder to have the range of skillsets needed with just 2. Instead of raising their BP, I'd suggest giving them an NPC. The archtypes in the main book are good for this use. If they lack magic, pick a mage or shaman. If they lack a heavy hitter, throw in an adept or street sam. If they lack a Face or a social type, put in the Face archtype. If there are 3 players you shoudn't need an NPC. Just take it easy on them at first.
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You might look into things like Wendigos, Insect spirits and totems, Vampires, and Blood Magic, and Blood Spirits. These might give you some of the flavor you are looking for, while staying in the realm of what has been written in there in the past. Be aware that they can be quite challenging to players though. Barghests and Hellhounds are great in packs too. Barghests paralyze and Hellhounds breathe fire and are fast as hell. There's all sorts of spirits. There's powerful free spirits, some of them quite evil. (Like the Jester Spirit in the Super Nintendo SR video game)
Like I said in an edit my players want something new every session. Also can you explain some terminology what does IC, I've seen it mostly refferenced with hacking. Also none of my players will be deckers following spoony's (from spoonyexperiment.com) advice of having all-decker or no-decker because the non decker characters would have nothing to do while the deckers did their jobs. Do I need the Unwired book since none of my characters will be deckers?
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Like I said in an edit my players want something new every session. Also can you explain some terminology what does IC, I've seen it mostly refferenced with hacking. Also none of my players will be deckers following spoony's (from spoonyexperiment.com) advice of having all-decker or no-decker because the non decker characters would have nothing to do while the deckers did their jobs. Do I need the Unwired book since none of my characters will be deckers?
IC ("Ice" as slang) stands for Intrusion Countermeasures. They're programs that protect nodes from hacking. The more nasty versions outright kill hackers or drive them insane. You shouldn't need Unwired, and I wouldn't really buy much more 4th edition unless you plan to stick with it for a year.
As for monsters, it's a tough way to run shadowrun, but possible. I did similar when I first started SR, as I was a past AD&D player. You just have to mostly create your own stuff if you don't like what's available. And science run amok seems to work better in the SR universe, than say mage lab created chimerae and ottyughs. Also, new forms of spirits popping up fits into the world well. I often just used genetics experiments and the like as excuses to release horrific monsters on my runners. (With inspiration from various sci fi novels)
Shadowrun is set up to be a heist type game, with the players being thieves penetrating security systems. So you try to change things up on each shadowrun by differing things like mission goals, building types, patrols of guards, the guard types, magical security, wards, and mages, police response times, and yes, paracritters. It can get challenging if you just focus on making a monster of the week. I know, I did it.
A good major enemy who returns time and again can spice things up too. And he can be a mad scientist if you want to mix in the genetic horrors with this. :)
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IC ("Ice" as slang) stands for Intrusion Countermeasures. They're programs that protect nodes from hacking. The more nasty versions outright kill hackers or drive them insane. You shouldn't need Unwired, and I wouldn't really buy much more 4th edition unless you plan to stick with it for a year.
As for monsters, it's a tough way to run shadowrun, but possible. I did similar when I first started SR, as I was a past AD&D player. You just have to mostly create your own stuff if you don't like what's available. And science run amok seems to work better in the SR universe, than say mage lab created chimerae and ottyughs. Also, new forms of spirits popping up fits into the world well. I often just used genetics experiments and the like as excuses to release horrific monsters on my runners. (With inspiration from various sci fi novels)
Shadowrun is set up to be a heist type game, with the players being thieves penetrating security systems. So you try to change things up on each shadowrun by differing things like mission goals, building types, patrols of guards, the guard types, magical security, wards, and mages, police response times, and yes, paracritters. It can get challenging if you just focus on making a monster of the week. I know, I did it.
Thanks, but is there a valid guide for converting the stats for monsters from Pathfinder to Shadowrun? I thought maybe you could divide the stats from PF by 3( seeing as how max starting attribute stats for PF is 18 and for shadowrun it's 6 and 18/6=3) Is that a good way? Also in the anniversary edition for SR on which page is the info on generating starting HP?
A good major enemy who returns time and again can spice things up too. And he can be a mad scientist if you want to mix in the genetic horrors with this. :)
I was thinking about an adept who was experimented with by teh evil corps and he released the monsters seeing himself in them as a guy tortured by corps and their lust for UNLIMITED POWAH, but maybe the adept is looking for the mad scientist that did that to him. It's a bit cheesy but hey it's my first time.
P.S. I haven't read much about the setting of SR but would it be out of place if I stole from the splinter cell series? notably Chaos Theory and Pandora Tomorrow.
P.P.S. Also should I start the off with a milk run gone bad or something more interesting from the start?
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Also none of my players will be deckers following spoony's (from spoonyexperiment.com) advice of having all-decker or no-decker because the non decker characters would have nothing to do while the deckers did their jobs.
Spoony probably just didn't understand Hacking. I was always afraid of hacking - as a player and GM - then after long months of approaching it from different angles, I feel like I finally understand it (for the most part), and now it's great, we mesh it quite well into everything else with our campaign. Doesn't take the hacker any longer to do his thing than it does a street sammy (to blast mofos) or mage (to astrally project and go around spooking). Hacking is a big part of cyberpunk, never having played with it before I can say it has added a lot to our game, but then again it doesn't sound like the cyberpunk is so much what you're interested in.
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Also none of my players will be deckers following spoony's (from spoonyexperiment.com) advice of having all-decker or no-decker because the non decker characters would have nothing to do while the deckers did their jobs.
Spoony probably just didn't understand Hacking. I was always afraid of hacking - as a player and GM - then after long months of approaching it from different angles, I feel like I finally understand it (for the most part), and now it's great, we mesh it quite well into everything else with our campaign. Doesn't take the hacker any longer to do his thing than it does a street sammy (to blast mofos) or mage (to astrally project and go around spooking). Hacking is a big part of cyberpunk, never having played with it before I can say it has added a lot to our game, but then again it doesn't sound like the cyberpunk is so much what you're interested in.
well he said that it takes a couple of hours for the decker because he has several combats inside of the matrix. Explain why this isnt the case. also can you help on the other topics too?
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well he said that it takes a couple of hours for the decker because he has several combats inside of the matrix. Explain why this isnt the case. also can you help on the other topics too?
That's a more valid argument for SR 1-3. In SR4 the Matrix action takes place more quickly and in the same time frame as the run (or at least it can). SR5 looks like it will take this even farther.
If you're short on players outsourcing the Matrix tasks to an NPC can be a great idea, but matrix can also be an iconic and interesting part of the game. If you're going to do this its important to remember to make the hacker a three dimensional character who helps you move the plot forward rather than just a plot dump. A hacker or face NPC can also be a good resource to prod the PCs if they get stuck in the legwork phase of the game.
Basically Burn Notice would be an example of a 3 or 4 PC group (depending on season), and Magnum PI is a 1 PC game with 3 major NPC contacts in Rick, TC and Higgins.
As a general note I'd say that the episodic missions style game is probably the easiest to run for a new GM, but there's nothing that says you can't run a "dungeon crawl" style game or a more story based game.
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well he said that it takes a couple of hours for the decker because he has several combats inside of the matrix. Explain why this isnt the case.
That's the fall-back excuse of someone who just doesn't know how the Matrix rules work. I know because it was my answer forever until about a month ago.
It's not the case because it's 100% within the GMs control how long the hacker has to do his thing. Don't want it to be long Hack session? Don't make it a complicated system. Keep it to just a Node or two, with hidden nodes, firewalls, encryption, data-bombs and roving agents being your main tools. Admittedly, we still avoid Matrix combat, because that will slow things down, but you don't have to have IC threatening your hackers life all the time for it to be a challenging and meaningful part of your campaign. Use a poor hack job to track the PCs, or to alert meat/automated security, etc. Or if your hacker is good, let him shine - everybody enjoys a good hamstringing of the system.
Also, it helps if you have an AR focused hacker - so he's there in the meat with the players, it's easier for the GM to put pressure on him this way and it just keeps things flowing. And definitely pre-plan the Nodes so you know what rolls s/he has to make and what the thresholds and consequences of failure are, etc.
All that said, the NPC hacker is a great tool if you're not comfortable with the Matrix yet, and have a small group. I sometimes wish we only had 3 players, we have 6 and it is a lot in SR - no problem in PF, but it's a lot for SR.
also can you help on the other topics too?
I'm a first time GM and I've never played shadowrun before. First of all should I wait for fifth edition or just play 4th?
I dunno, I'd say play 4 now. It's fully developed and supplemented, and there's nothing broken with it that can't be fixed by some house-rules (which, btw, I use some optional/house-rules for the Matrix). If you have other RPGs your table plays, I could see sticking with those until 5 drops, but if you want to play SR now, play now.
What is changed in fifth edition? Also are there any places where I could find paranormal creatures? I've read through parazoology but there were only f-ed up animals. My group wants something more fantasy in the creatures. Something "Classic" like the Cyclops or Ghouls and weird stuff like Otyugh from pathfinder. Are there any forums/books where I can find stats for them (of course most of the will be prime runners or lieutenants because well you wouldn't want to fight 5 cyclops at a time :P).
And will it be a viable explanation for the appearance of these creatures that the corporations were tampering with magic trying to weaponise it and somehow this came out, or maybe they were a failed experiment for trying to create super soldiers. Also what exactly are sourcebooks? Do they contain rules or only setting?
I don't dig on the high fantasy aspect of SR all that much, so I'll leave all that to the others who've already addressed your questions.
Also I will be playing with 2/3 player characters (not sure if one of us is gonna play) should I increase their starting BP or will they be OK?
They should be fine with 400 BP, IMO. The difference between a 400 BP PC and a "prime runner" is potentially pretty small really, nothing at all like the difference between a 1st level and 10th level PC in PF, so they should do just fine.
Edit 2: also without the CR rating how do i know if the group is too weak to fight something and end up killing them?
This is the hard part no matter what kind of campaign you're running. Personally, I go by the rule of 3. Dropping or adding three dice from where your PCs are at in their primary pools will be a drop or rise in "challenge rating". If your PCs are any sort of optimized, i.e. 15 in primary pools, then an equal number of enemies throwing 15 dice will be a tough battle, could easily end with a KO'd PC or two depending on how the dice fall - and it could kill them all depending on how good your, and your PC's, tactics are. An equal number of enemies throwing 18 dice would likely end with a death or two, if not all of them. An equal number of enemies throwing 12 should challenge them, causing them to expend significant resources (grenades, medkits, spells), someone may even go down, but they should win - and live. Same number of enemies throwing 9 die may do minor damage, and should take a minor expenditure of resources, probably not gonna have anyone go down unless there's a glitch in there. An equal number of enemies throwing 6 dice will get walked over, likely costing your players nothing except an equal number of bullets.
The key part of combat though is Initiative. If you want to challenge the PCs but not kill them, I like to either have my goons spend their group EDG to go first, or give them decent (probably exceeding where their other skills are at, but oh well) Initiative potential. So, the enemies may only be rolling 9 dice to attack, but their Initiative pool will be on par with the players. Secondary to Initiative is armor, have them throwing smaller pools to attack but wearing stacked armor will 1.) possibly turn the PCs damage to Stun and 2.) probably allow them to soak enough to live til their turn - may have some heavy negative penalties from being shot, but they could still retaliate.
All the other advice given for prolonging battles is good too. Tactics, cover, space, etc. dice pool modifiers are wonderful tools. Don't remember if this was mentioned, but large numbers of weak enemies can prolong battle too. There is a limit to how many mooks your PCs can put the lights out on, the rest will get to do their thing with their crappy pools.
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Thanks, but is there a valid guide for converting the stats for monsters from Pathfinder to Shadowrun? I thought maybe you could divide the stats from PF by 3( seeing as how max starting attribute stats for PF is 18 and for shadowrun it's 6 and 18/6=3) Is that a good way?
I doubt there's a guide to do this, but it may be worth an internet search. What I mostly did is determine the monster's body and strength based on size, by comparing them to creatures of the same size and ferocity from the other game. I took out some powers when I couldn't find an easy example in the SR books, or changed them to fit SR rules. It's really best when you don't have to make up powers, because you are already doing tons of extra work to make this thing happen. You have to kind of guess on unarmed combat skills as well, but their skill in the other games can be a guide. Armor is a tricky thing too. You will probaly have to add armor. Most critters in SR don't have much armor and I've found they die quite fast because of that, unless they come in packs. Packs of super fast hellhounds however, are a shadowrunner's worst nightmare.
You can steal from any source you want to, and in fact it's a great idea, as long as you don't get too crazy with it. It's generally a bad idea though if it'll be obvious as the players can get annoyed. Like stealing the plot of the latest Startrek movie, probaly bad idea.
I'd suggest a few milk runs, to get them used to the game system. In fact, trick them a bit and don't bring out the monsters at first. Just use some regular guards and such, and alarms. Then pull them out in the most sudden way possible. It makes sense anyway, the villian would have the monsters locked up tight, not easy to get to. They are a secret.
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well he said that it takes a couple of hours for the decker because he has several combats inside of the matrix. Explain why this isnt the case.
That's the fall-back excuse of someone who just doesn't know how the Matrix rules work. I know because it was my answer forever until about a month ago.
It's not the case because it's 100% within the GMs control how long the hacker has to do his thing. Don't want it to be long Hack session? Don't make it a complicated system. Keep it to just a Node or two, with hidden nodes, firewalls, encryption, data-bombs and roving agents being your main tools. Admittedly, we still avoid Matrix combat, because that will slow things down, but you don't have to have IC threatening your hackers life all the time for it to be a challenging and meaningful part of your campaign. Use a poor hack job to track the PCs, or to alert meat/automated security, etc. Or if your hacker is good, let him shine - everybody enjoys a good hamstringing of the system.
Well then it isn't fun for the decker because he only gets 10 minutes to shine and they probably won't be any challenging with just a node or two. I think I'll stick to NPC hacker because none of my players really want to do that.
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Also one of my players had the bright idea of playing a professor (i. e. getting all the knowledge skills to 4 at least and maxing out logic and maybe powering up intuition). How the hell would I make that work? Should I make the campaign require for the runners to find certain clues or know certain stufff (like this stone was from the ancient aztech tribe so they must be from aztechnology (I know that is really dumb and wont work im just giving an example) or some other bull feces like that). Should I weaken enemies because of that? I mean he said that he wont get ANY combat skills meaning he'll just sit there in combat. I suggested having tons of augmentations instead of just doing nothing in combat but he didn't say anything (literally he just said "Oh, you can buy augmentations at the start?"). What should I do now? Should I flat out just tell him that if he does that he'll be gone in the first session? I mean what if the other PCs (which is 1 or 2 btw like first post i have no idea if one of em is playing) are knocked out with a lucky crit or two? He'll just be f*ck*d?
P.S. This next bit has nothing to do with SR but I want an answer: In Pathfinder I once fought a creature which was resistant to anything but silver. Would it have been a viable idea to bash his skull in with a bag of silver coins? Or put silver coins between your fingers and punch that f-er? Anyway the DM didn't allow it so i'm just asking was i in the wrong there
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Knowledge skills should randomly contribute from time to time. I had a player surprise me by using his math (+chaos theory) on locations+timestamps to figure out where the points of interests of criminals were. That's a good way of using a knowledge skill.
If he wants to Face, so that he can do all the social stuff, that's contributing with real skills. Using that logic to Deck would have been a good choice. Throwing grenades and using First Aid too. But if he actually intends to only contribute through Knowledge skills, he's utterly insane and no Johnson will ever hire him.
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Knowledge skills should randomly contribute from time to time. I had a player surprise me by using his math (+chaos theory) on locations+timestamps to figure out where the points of interests of criminals were. That's a good way of using a knowledge skill.
If he wants to Face, so that he can do all the social stuff, that's contributing with real skills. Using that logic to Deck would have been a good choice. Throwing grenades and using First Aid too. But if he actually intends to only contribute through Knowledge skills, he's utterly insane and no Johnson will ever hire him.
Well yeah I know that but there is no goddamn way I can convince him ( he is stubborn as f**k) How can I play along? Maybe he knows everything and johnson would send him on runs to investigate stuff? He could play Monk from the future? I know he won't back down because I bitched about his previous characters which were over the top emo assholes and would always get the group killed, and always stole the spotlight from other PCs.Is there ANY way I could make that work?
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Cut down his share. Let the Johnson hire him solely for his expertise, send the group into a facility to escort him and let him analyze the data inside, then leave without performing a data steal because Johnson doesn't want it duplicated, he just wants to know what's in there. Let them also break into another part of the facility and steal some irrelevant data as a distraction.
Since the Johnson hires him purely for his knowledge, while the others are hired independently to escort him, he will get far less money. Maybe 60%, and no bonuses. The rest gets a bonus of another 10%~20% depending on how well they do with the distraction, covering their tracks on the real target and not leaving bodies (Johnson doesn't want too big a fuss, since that'd cause a fullblown investigation).
If he has to be escorted and only contributes Knowledge skills, it's simple: Knowledge Skills cost 50% of real skills. So he gets what nets out to 50% of the reward.
You could just handle negotiations privately, since he's hired by himself so won't be at the same location as the team being offered the job, so he'll only find out later. That will be a jerk move but really sends the message.
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Cut down his share. Let the Johnson hire him solely for his expertise, send the group into a facility to escort him and let him analyze the data inside, then leave without performing a data steal because Johnson doesn't want it duplicated, he just wants to know what's in there. Let them also break into another part of the facility and steal some irrelevant data as a distraction.
Since the Johnson hires him purely for his knowledge, while the others are hired independently to escort him, he will get far less money. Maybe 60%, and no bonuses. The rest gets a bonus of another 10%~20% depending on how well they do with the distraction, covering their tracks on the real target and not leaving bodies (Johnson doesn't want too big a fuss, since that'd cause a fullblown investigation).
If he has to be escorted and only contributes Knowledge skills, it's simple: Knowledge Skills cost 50% of real skills. So he gets what nets out to 50% of the reward.
You could just handle negotiations privately, since he's hired by himself so won't be at the same location as the team being offered the job, so he'll only find out later. That will be a jerk move but really sends the message.
He actually now wants to play a hacker that doesn't go into the Matrix and can control Implants on enemies (if you have a cyberarm stop hitting yourself). Also how do you open locked doors in SR. I mean most of them will be keycard controlled right? so he can hack those maybe? Is there a way I could do that?
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If they're connected to a security system, you could break open the wall, connect an optical tap and send a spoof command. You can also break it open with Hardware, then try to bypass it. There's rules for those somewhere, about how to get past Maglocks.
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If they're connected to a security system, you could break open the wall, connect an optical tap and send a spoof command. You can also break it open with Hardware, then try to bypass it. There's rules for those somewhere, about how to get past Maglocks.
Thanks, but can you answer my previous question: Can you play a hacker without EVER going into the matrix?as far as im aware to hack implants connected to the matrix you actually go into the matrix right?
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Technically, it depends on what you consider the matrix. If the matrix is logging into things in Virtual Reality, surfing it with your consciousness, then it's possible to go without, hacking purely in AR. Gives you less initiative and less passes but basically you tap a few keys on your commlink and stuff happens.
By the way, it's impossible to hack implants that don't have their wireless on. Smartguns, yes, those tend to be connected to an online commlink. But implants, no. Those are connected to your brain through DNI, which is unhackable unless they use VR-stuff that lets you mess with their brains. And only hackers and faces want that kind of stuff, hackers for VR and faces for linguasofts.
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AR hacker is perfectly viable.
In an investigation type game, like Call of Cthulhu or Dark Heresy, the professor archetype can work quite well. You could run an investigation type game with SR, but its a very specific type of game.
You could always combine the two ideas - A young post doc with mad computer skills running the shadows to pay off his college loans.
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Ask him to take some actual useful skills, such as hardware and first aid, that his type of character might reasonably have. He may not be as good as the hardcore specialists, but he could contribute as a sort of skill monkey/jack of all trades.
Also you can force the issue.in to him in situations where he has to do things like fist fight, fight with a knife or sword, shoot a gun, and so on. Then give him some skill points in those areas the place of karma that the others are getting. In no time you'll have a competent runner, even if the foolish player is resisting it.
You...will...be....useful!
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I'd be really uncomfortable taking control of a player's character like that.
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Well then it isn't fun for the decker because he only gets 10 minutes to shine and they probably won't be any challenging with just a node or two. I think I'll stick to NPC hacker because none of my players really want to do that.
I get that you probably don't understand what I'm suggesting on how to run the Matrix but this is a moot point regardless. That stoic Street-sam? He only shines in combat, you're not gonna contract that out to NPCs. Plus it's really easy to be a superb combatant and Hacker, as an AR Hacker. Even as a Hot-sim Hacker, if all s/he can do is hack then either the player isn't very good at character building or they've chosen to only shine when there's matrix stuff to do anyway. A hacker sh/could also be the group's Medic, their saboteur, their leg-worker, their repair man for everything from armor to weapons to vehicles. So yeah, really you just are looking for an excuse to avoid the Matrix - and that's alright, but don't try and pass it off like it's not workable, because it is.
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I'd be really uncomfortable taking control of a player's character like that.
Oh, I don't mean posess him. Just put him in shall we say active situations. He can always maintain the right to stand there like a putz or run away or whatever.
Kind of like when the pudgy Sam Verner trained and became a lean mean shadowrunning machine at the start of the trilogy.
Well his main reason to avoid the matrix is that it sounds like he will convert to 5th edition soon. No reason to learn the more complex system, if they met their design goals with simplifying the Matrix.
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He actually now wants to play a hacker that doesn't go into the Matrix and can control Implants on enemies (if you have a cyberarm stop hitting yourself). Also how do you open locked doors in SR. I mean most of them will be keycard controlled right? so he can hack those maybe? Is there a way I could do that?
Anything that operates electronically potentially has a Node in the Matrix. Maglocks could conceivably be wirelessly enabled, more likely though they'd be hard-wired to a "security server" as it's more secure. Same with cameras and MAD scanners, etc. The way to do that is exactly as I said in my second (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11261.msg208239#msg208239) reply to you.
What he would be doing is called AR (Augmented Reality) Hacking. He'd basically be operating through a bunch of "pop-up" windows in his Image-Linked visual enhancements, whether that's contacts, glasses or cyber-eyes.
As for hacking 'ware, most people with 'ware would either have the connectivity completely turned off, or skinlinked and slaved to their commlink. So he'd have to hack their commlink Node, access that particular bit of 'ware through it's Node in the 'link, and then it's controls Icon. Or at least that's how I'd do it (hasn't came up yet in our campaign).
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He actually now wants to play a hacker that doesn't go into the Matrix and can control Implants on enemies (if you have a cyberarm stop hitting yourself). Also how do you open locked doors in SR. I mean most of them will be keycard controlled right? so he can hack those maybe? Is there a way I could do that?
Anything that operates electronically potentially has a Node in the Matrix. Maglocks could conceivably be wirelessly enabled, more likely though they'd be hard-wired to a "security server" as it's more secure. Same with cameras and MAD scanners, etc. The way to do that is exactly as I said in my second (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11261.msg208239#msg208239) reply to you.
What he would be doing is called AR (Augmented Reality) Hacking. He'd basically be operating through a bunch of "pop-up" windows in his Image-Linked visual enhancements, whether that's contacts, glasses or cyber-eyes.
As for hacking 'ware, most people with 'ware would either have the connectivity completely turned off, or skinlinked and slaved to their commlink. So he'd have to hack their commlink Node, access that particular bit of 'ware through it's Node in the 'link, and then it's controls Icon. Or at least that's how I'd do it (hasn't came up yet in our campaign).
Thanks. Can anyone explain to me whats the difference between an AR hacker and a decker? I get that the AR hacker isn't in the matrix,but what are the differences between their abilities? What can a decker do that an AR hacker can't and vice versa. AR hackers can hack nodes right?
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AR means walking around and interacting with your google glass. VR means fully plugged in.
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AR means walking around and interacting with your google glass. VR means fully plugged in.
I know I'm not an idiot. I meant the advantages for AR and the advantages for VR what can I do with VR that I can't do with AR and vice versa?
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Also chummer is for fourth edition right?
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Also on which page of 20th anniversary can i find the rules for AR hacker?
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Also on which page of 20th anniversary can i find the rules for AR hacker?
I believe the hacking rules in SR4A assume that the hacker is in AR by default. The benefits to being in VR are listed separately.
As far as the difference between hackers and deckers: it was a terminology change in the transition from 3rd edition to 4th edition that accompanied the removal of the requirement for dedicated cyberdecks for hacking. Functionally, they're the same thing in 4th edition: someone who uses hardware and programs to hack.
With 5th edition, the terminology has changed yet again, we're told. "Hackers" will now refer to anyone who cracks the Matrix, and are divided in to deckers (now that cyberdecks and not mere commlinks are required to hack) and technomancers.
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Regular applications of a Professor character aside (send the crew on a run to secure a bunch of volatile artifacts, investigate a cult, approach or retrieve a scientist at a convention, help an illegal archaeological dig on Sinsearach turf that's being bothered by ghosts/monsters and lost their main researcher to traps), with high Logic and Intuition, there's a few ways to go besides hacking - with 5+ Logic, 6 BP/Karma (1 level + specialty) is enough to branch out into various useful assist-skills (8 dice means you can just buy 2 hits), like Armorer, Chemistry, Demolitions, any of the Mechanic skills... I'm not sure if you're allowed to 'break' a skill group by getting a Specialty on one of the skills, but if so, he could even get the entire Mechanic skill group for 10 BP/Karma, then take specialties whenever one might be important in the near future.
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thanks for all the help. I think he'll like being an AR hacker, I'll ask him tomorrow.
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AR means walking around and interacting with your google glass. VR means fully plugged in.
I know I'm not an idiot. I meant the advantages for AR and the advantages for VR what can I do with VR that I can't do with AR and vice versa?
A VR hacker is much faster in the matrix, and has bonuses to certain tasks. An AR hacker is bound to his or her physical init, but can interact with the real world. A primarily AR hacker should pay special attention to the rules for Agents as well.
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is every rule in SR4 rulebook for hacking contained in Unwireds an idiots guide to the matrix, or do i have to read both? I'm kinda on a schedule I have to be done with the campaign and everything until the 25th and I haven't even completely read through the rulebook ( I haven't read the magic and matrix parts).
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Also can AR hackers be technomancers or are tecnomancers exclusive to VR?
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is every rule in SR4 rulebook for hacking contained in Unwireds an idiots guide to the matrix, or do i have to read both? I'm kinda on a schedule I have to be done with the campaign and everything until the 25th and I haven't even completely read through the rulebook ( I haven't read the magic and matrix parts).
The idiots guide is more of a conceptual framework and you should plan on reading the matrix rules separately (although you might read the idiot's guide first then the matrix rules after). Equally important is making sure that any player who wants to play a hacker, technomancer or rigger has read the matrix rules anfd the idiot's guide.
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Also are the matrix qualities in Unwired exclusive to VR? Sorry for triple posting.
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Also are the matrix qualities in Unwired exclusive to VR? Sorry for triple posting.
I think you're under a misapprehension. VR versus AR is a tactical choice not a build choice. Any hacker can use VR and any hacker can use AR. For a good idea of what an "AR hacker" might look like try watching BBCs Sherlock.
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Also are the matrix qualities in Unwired exclusive to VR? Sorry for triple posting.
I think you're under a misapprehension. VR versus AR is a tactical choice not a build choice. Any hacker can use VR and any hacker can use AR. For a good idea of what an "AR hacker" might look like try watching BBCs Sherlock.
I've watched it and it's great but I ever noticed Sherlock wearing google glass :P. Although i know what you mean seeing text in augmented reality pop up on certain objects maybe even video or audio.
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I've watched it and it's great but I ever noticed Sherlock wearing google glass :P. Although i know what you mean seeing text in augmented reality pop up on certain objects maybe even video or audio.
He doesn't but the scenes where he's sorting data are a good example of what it would look like.
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Also can you raise attributes above the cap after character creation? Let's say I'm playing a human Hacker and I have a logic of 6. Could I raise it with karma and without getting augmentations? and if so can I also raise it with karma above 9? even if i have augmentations? If I can't raise it with karma is there any other way? Also what's surge?
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Also can you raise attributes above the cap after character creation? Let's say I'm playing a human Hacker and I have a logic of 6. Could I raise it with karma and without getting augmentations? and if so can I also raise it with karma above 9? even if i have augmentations? If I can't raise it with karma is there any other way? Also what's surge?
In order:
Q: Can you raise attributes above the cap after character creation?
A: Yes, with Augmentations or Spells
Q: Could you raise it with Karma above 6?
A: No, but if the GM allows it, the player could buy exceptional attribute as a quality and then raise it with Karma to 7
Q: Raise above 9?
A: No, not even with Augmentations or spells, most certainly not with Karma. Racial Maximum x 1,5 (round down) is the absolute maximum, and you can't go over it. You also can't go over the racial maximum with Karma
Q: What is SURGE?
A: It's shorthand for SUdden Recessive Genetic Expression. In short, mutations. There are multiple qualities available to modify a character with cat ears, satyr legs and other strange features. Full rules are in Runner's Companion
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Also can you raise attributes above the cap after character creation? Let's say I'm playing a human Hacker and I have a logic of 6. Could I raise it with karma and without getting augmentations? and if so can I also raise it with karma above 9? even if i have augmentations? If I can't raise it with karma is there any other way? Also what's surge?
In order:
Q: Can you raise attributes above the cap after character creation?
A: Yes, with Augmentations or Spells
Q: Could you raise it with Karma above 6?
A: No, but if the GM allows it, the player could buy exceptional attribute as a quality and then raise it with Karma to 7
Q: Raise above 9?
A: No, not even with Augmentations or spells, most certainly not with Karma. Racial Maximum x 1,5 (round down) is the absolute maximum, and you can't go over it. You also can't go over the racial maximum with Karma
Q: What is SURGE?
A: It's shorthand for SUdden Recessive Genetic Expression. In short, mutations. There are multiple qualities available to modify a character with cat ears, satyr legs and other strange features. Full rules are in Runner's Companion
Thanks one of my players insisted on it being possible having a character with 13 logic (he saw a purely hypothetical post on what a character with 13 logic would act like) and there was no way I could change his mind. Maybe this will help:P.
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Also I've read that the Matrix system in 4e is broken. Is that really true? Should I use a houseruled system? I haven't read it yet and plan to soon, but there is no point in reading it if it's really that broken as they say.
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There are a few qualities that theoretically make a character with LOG 13 possible, but of course such a character would have to be seriously minmaxed.
I won't bother doing the math right now, but there are, for example, exceptional attribute and metagenetic improvement (LOG) as qualities. Both raise the racial maximum by 1, and as such, the absolute maximum would be 12. There's probably something I'm forgetting, so 13 might not be too far fetched. Useful? Probably not so much.
Matrix in SR4 is not per sé broken. It's just a bit complicated and it takes some reading to get into.
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Matrix in SR4 is not per sé broken. It's just a bit complicated and it takes some reading to get into.
You still didn't answer my question: as a first time player for SR and a first time GM in any game is it better to use the regular rules or use houserules that you can find on the internet? Also if should use houserules which one do you recommend? I've seen this one recommended http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836.
P.S. By Houserules I mean complete reworks aka i don't need to read the actual original rules to fully understand and use the matrix.
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I'd use the normal rules so you don't have to rework everything in a short time but "bare bones" the architecture to start - maybe the building being hacked into only has one or two nodes, not one for every possible subsystem and an admin node behind that. It's not like your party is hitting a Zero Zone first run.
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Well, you'll need to decide that for yourself. i.e. read it and decide if it is too difficult.
I neither know your capacity for working with it nor your group's preferences.
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Well, you'll need to decide that for yourself. i.e. read it and decide if it is too difficult.
I neither know your capacity for working with it nor your group's preferences.
Well I haven't started working on the hacking aspects of the campaign and haven't even read the "Wireless world" chapter in the rulebook. So, I'm asking if the houseruled systems are simpler are they mechanically worse? Or are they just a simpler explanation and a few minor changes?
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Those are highly subjective questions. There is no one true answer.
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For a better understanding of hacking, I suggest taking a look at the cheat sheet / tutorial you can download from this thread in the Toolbox sub-forum:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8388.0
Hopefully after looking through that you'll be better able to judge for yourself. At the very least it may give you a foundation on which to work out any houseruling you do.
And on the gripping hand - with any luck the PDF of the Quckstart rules for SR5 from FreeRPG will be available soon. The Matrix rules there are considerably simplified and you might want to consider adapting those for your SR4 game.
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It sounds like you really just need to read the entire book, nikolamat. Read it again, if you say you've already read it once - because you've not picked up on some of the most basic concepts of the game. People are trying to help you and you're just being demanding, while also being clueless about pretty much everything. I can't believe people are still entertaining your questions with the way you behave.