Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1804:55>
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Can someone please summarize the main points on how magic changed in SR? Drain codes, direct combat spells, old spell favorites like invisibility or levitation, power foci, abilities and services of spirits, metamagic etc?
I am not asking about writing down the entire chapter, just some core changes / points.
MfG
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Direct combat spells now only do damage equal to net hits.
So no more "stunbolt/stunball for force eight, roll six hits, help yourself to a a nice 14 or so points of stun and call me in the morning when you wake up."
Drain is no longer first aid-able it has to heal naturally not even medkits can help.
Indirect Combat spells do force + net hits damage if they connect with AP equal to the force you cast at but can be dodged like bullets/guns..
That's the simple stuff that every runner mage or not should know.
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Direct combat spells now only do damage equal to net hits.
I've heard that they either can't be dodged or can't be soaked... is either of those true?
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Direct combat spells now only do damage equal to net hits.
I've heard that they either can't be dodged or can't be soaked... is either of those true?
They can not be dodged, just like they could not be dodged in fourth. You can soak some of the damage but your pool for it is very small like just willpower and body or maybe willpower and logic... Can not recall off top of my head.
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So either safe small damage, or risky big armor-resistance damage.
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So either safe small damage, or risky big armor-resistance damage.
Big armor resisted damage, but yes.
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What about drain?
SYL
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Drain is now based on F rather than F/2, and the values have been adjusted accordingly, but otherwise works pretty much the same way.
Direct combat spells (somewhat) reliably do a little damage, while indirect combat spells unreliably do tons of damage.
Direct: Spellcasting+MAG vs either BOD or WIL(+Counterspelling). Only net hits deal damage, but it is not resisted any further. (The Force is only a limit in this case.)
Indirect: Spellcasting+MAG vs REA+INT(+Counterspelling). You deal Force+net hits damage, resisted by BOD+Armor and at an AP of (-Force).
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Can you give some drain examples? Like stunbolt, fireball, levitation, invisibility?
MfG
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Direct Spells:
Spellcasting + Magic [Force] to cast. DV is equal to Hits. It's resisted with just Willpower or Body.
Indirect Spells:
Singe Target Indirect Spells are cast using Spellcasting + Magic [Force] vs Reaction + Intuition. Net hits by the caster add to DV, more hits by defender lead to a miss and no damage.
Area Indirect spells are like grenades, in that they are targeted at a location rather than a person, and require a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) test or they scatter. Hits above 3 add to DV and hit everything in the area.
Spell damage is resisted by Body + Armor, with an AP modifier equal to the Force of the Spell. Armor Mods such as non-conductivity add their rating to the armor to resist their damage type.
So yes, a Direct Combat spell will often do less damage. But it's also a much more sure thing, and is less likely to be resisted.
Indirect Spells can be dodged or have a chance to scatter, are resisted by more dice, and can even have specialized armor to add even more damage resistance.
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Huh. I really want to read the exact rules on grenades and indirect area spells, to see their exact functioning. Can't wait until I have the rules and know enough to voice concerns.
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I am curious on the drain now that you can't first aid it. F+or- mods is a wide range of drain. How much does elemental effect add drain wise, we've seen the elemental effects are they do add a bonus, but if that drain is going to sit with me for hours every +1 drain is a huge liability. And yes, yes risk/reward, but the question is more leaning towards are the drain risks balanced with the spell effects rewards.
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OK, I am curious to the people with the book from Origins:
What are the different Traditions in the core book? Still just Hermetic and Shaman? Or are there more?
What are the effects of Totems/Mentor Spirits? What are the effects of the Traditions, themselves?
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Indirect Spells:
Singe Target Indirect Spells are cast using Spellcasting + Magic [Force] vs Reaction + Intuition. Net hits by the caster add to DV, more hits by defender lead to a miss and no damage.
Have they changed ranged combat defense (it is just Reaction for passive defense in SR4), or is this specific to indirect spells?
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Have they changed ranged combat defense (it is just Reaction for passive defense in SR4), or is this specific to indirect spells?
It's changed. Your standard, automatic Defense roll is REA+INT.
It seems to be part of the whole rebalancing and streamlining of combat, along with increased DV for weapons, and Armor ratings. In practice, it seems you will hit your targets less often than in 4th, but you'll do more damage when you do. That means that at the table you will tend to spend less time calculating damage dealt, which speeds up combat by quite a bit.
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What are the effects of Totems/Mentor Spirits?
I'm curious what folks will have to say about those (a few big changes in particular). ;D
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Have they changed ranged combat defense (it is just Reaction for passive defense in SR4), or is this specific to indirect spells?
It's changed. Your standard, automatic Defense roll is REA+INT.
It seems to be part of the whole rebalancing and streamlining of combat, along with increased DV for weapons, and Armor ratings. In practice, it seems you will hit your targets less often than in 4th, but you'll do more damage when you do. That means that at the table you will tend to spend less time calculating damage dealt, which speeds up combat by quite a bit.
I woud actually argue against saying you are less likely to hit but more likely to cream someone when you connect. The removal of narrow bursts and thus the full phase action "if I can hit, you are taking 17p (nine for the burst, one for e-ex ammo and seven for the gun) and net hits" has beena replace do 12 p and net hits but you are at -9 to dodge which seems to have the exact opposite effect.
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You can only pull a -9 twice due to cumulative recoil though, after that you're not hitting anyone.
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You can only pull a -9 twice due to cumulative recoil though, after that you're not hitting anyone.
In 5e yes, But what you do is get an initiative score that should be in the 20s, (like 10 or 11 and three d6) full burst, then spend your next action just aiming then full burst again on your third action since the aiming gave you a chance to reset your progressive recoil.
At least until more fancy recoil nullifies (like foot anchors) come out. Possibly also spend that middle action to launch/roll a grenade at somebody you really don't like since I know throwing (but not sure about launching) a grenade would reset your recoil.
(Also you can do two long bursts with some aiming as simple actions on your first and second actions if you expect the fight to end in the first to go rounds before you get to your third)
But in my opinion that is neither here nor there in my thoughts how likely you are to hit versus how hard do you hit in 5e versus 4e in my opinion.
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What are the effects of Totems/Mentor Spirits?
I'm curious what folks will have to say about those (a few big changes in particular). ;D
Yeah...I love how, we have a thread about this, and people are fixating on something as unimportant as area effect
spells. I want to know about the important stuff!
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What are the effects of Totems/Mentor Spirits?
I'm curious what folks will have to say about those (a few big changes in particular). ;D
Yeah...I love how, we have a thread about this, and people are fixating on something as unimportant as area effect
spells. I want to know about the important stuff!
Each post after that initial question made me more and more anxious to find out about what's been done with the "feel" of the traditional Traditions and Totems, so I'm right with you Mara. Have to say though, I love the consideration of factored in miss effects of the phys. combat spells!
"Aw man, I just lightning bolted Marvin in the face!"
- Wailer
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From what I've heard... I love the changes.
Flashy, elemental, and easy to resist magic spells now have a reason for casting them. On top of which, throwing a lane of literal fire down an alley is no longer going to be dodged. I'm very happy.
Here's to hoping that elemental armor isn't ubiquitous as it was in 4th.
Edit : Any word on Fetishes? Those things annoyed the shit out of me in 4th. Practically free, added 2 to drain with practically no drawbacks whatsoever.
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Edit : Any word on Fetishes? Those things annoyed the shit out of me in 4th. Practically free, added 2 to drain with practically no drawbacks whatsoever.
Not mentioned in the book, except as flavor texts for describing magical lodges.
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What are preparations?
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The things you do so as not to get filled with lead by the opposition.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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What are preparations?
Alchemy!
There's a new(?) skill called Alchemy where you can imbue an object with a spell. Kind of like Quickened spells, but more short-term and everyday.
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And as far as I've read about alchemy (I even started my own rules thread) I don't see anywhere in the book that says a Magician can't make one, pass it to his buddy and say "When you see bad guys, throw this at them and scream "Yohem Nephilem" as you do".
Basically you set how to activate it, you spend some money on the lynchpin (the object) and any reagents (powdered rhinoceros horn for example) and make a test for it. Soak some drain and it lasts for a set number of hours equal to the potency gained. When activated it flings off a spell bound to it and becomes a normal object afterwards.
I'm particularly amused with the example in the book about etching a credstick as a lynchpin and setting it up with a Death spell with the trigger being "Next person who touches it". Makes for a nasty trick for your standard rent-a-cop.
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That's how I understand them to work.
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I hate the idea of Corpsec getting these things handed to them to throw at runners.
Team Mage "No mages among them.... But I see an astral signature. Weird"
Me "Why did they just throw a stick at us...... OMG FIRE EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!
Team Mage "Oh shit, that ain't cool....."
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I love that idea!
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Wonder what the market for shadow talismongers to make those for Talent-poor groups is like. "Why, yes, I can make you a Fireball marble. 3 easy payments of ¥x,xxx"
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There's a new(?) skill called Alchemy where you can imbue an object with a spell. Kind of like Quickened spells, but more short-term and everyday.
It's more like Anchoring than Quickening as I understand it. Which is interesting, since Anchoring was a bit to expensive to use. I always thought that's a shame, since it allowed the mage to give a single use spell to his mundane friends.
Btw. I'm really eager to hear about mentor spirits. They are cool, but until now, they had been badly designed when it came to adepts, as their boni were mostly magician related. That's why we houseruled them in SR4.
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A mage can't pass an alchemical preparation to another person to use unless you count having the Troll throw it.
A Commanded Preparation is commanded only by the mage.
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What about counterspeling..does it survived, or is it dropped from rules? And in case A) how does it work now?
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Giabralter is correct. I misread that.... but I am betting a Metamagic or future book will allow mages to give them to mundanes. I shall count down the time to the magic supplement book's release. Mwhuhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaah.
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What about counterspeling..does it survived, or is it dropped from rules? And in case A) how does it work now?
Counterspelling is still a skill, and works similarly:
You have as many counterspelling dice as your skill in counterspelling. Unfortunately however, you must choose how many dice you use for each resistance check. So for instance, if you decide to use a few dice from your pool to resist a spell cast at you, you will have that many fewer dice to resist the next spell.
The pool refreshes every combat turn, and can be used to defend the people you declare as a free action (or inturrupt at any time to declare for -5 initiative)
If multiple people get hit by an area spell, you can apply the dice you declare to all of them. So if 3 people get hit with a fireball and you use 4 dice to counterspell, each of them will get 4 dice to resist with.
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And so they brought back pools ...
MfG
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And so they brought back pools ...
MfG
It's the only one I've seen so far.
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You now have Ritual Spellcasting, and reasons to learn it, and Artificing, and reasons to learn it.
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I hate the idea of Corpsec getting these things handed to them to throw at runners.
Team Mage "No mages among them.... But I see an astral signature. Weird"
Me "Why did they just throw a stick at us...... OMG FIRE EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!
Team Mage "Oh shit, that ain't cool....."
I guess I like the idea, because that made me laugh. :)
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It's more like Anchoring than Quickening as I understand it. Which is interesting, since Anchoring was a bit to expensive to use. I always thought that's a shame, since it allowed the mage to give a single use spell to his mundane friends.
Yeah, Anchoring. That's what I meant to say.
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I'm particularly amused with the example in the book about etching a credstick as a lynchpin and setting it up with a Death spell with the trigger being "Next person who touches it". Makes for a nasty trick for your standard rent-a-cop.
Great, now you can't trust the Johnson completely when he hands you a credstick like we've done in the past.
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Perception. Perception perception perception.
Luckily they boosted the ability to notice magic. It's a perception test with very specific standards. Especially if you have a background knowledge skill involving it (automatic +2. Dice to your role)
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Perception. Perception perception perception.
Luckily they boosted the ability to notice magic. It's a perception test with very specific standards. Especially if you have a background knowledge skill involving it (automatic +2. Dice to your role)
Now that is cool. Would have loved that in one of my old runs where someone boobytrapped my gun and it blew up in my face.
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You now have Ritual Spellcasting, and reasons to learn it, and Artificing, and reasons to learn it.
That's good. Mages weren't enough of a karma sink before.
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Well glyph now you can't be a Mage who does everything great, you gotta start specializing. Myself? I'm smelling a combat Alchemist. Something about an SMG in one hand and a wand that spits Ball Lightning's at corp teams in the other that makes me go "Yep, that's a good idea."
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Perception. Perception perception perception.
Luckily they boosted the ability to notice magic. It's a perception test with very specific standards. Especially if you have a background knowledge skill involving it (automatic +2. Dice to your role)
*facepalms* Damn... It needed to be to where magic could NOT be noticed at all until the effect occurred without astrally perceiving.
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Why?
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I think it only applies to Physical spells, A4BG. Mana spells still require Assensing to notice. Either that or a Glowand and/or training in seeing potential mages use their powers( physical mnemonics, incantations, focusing on something intensely).
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It keeps magic being that thing that is feared by those who can't use it (as it should be). If just anyone can just notice when a spell is being cast, that defeats part of the point in having to have a magician on the team. They put stuff in that makes you screwed if you don't have a hacker (at least if you want to get full benefit of the gear you payed for), so why shouldn't the mage be the only one to be able to notice magic?
Again, keep in mind that most of my characters would never be able to notice a spell being cast if it worked how I think it should.
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That's incorrect. The new rules are SPECIFICALLY for direct spells and enchantments and status as dual natured being, yada yada.
Basically it gives those mundane a a chance to understand what the fuck is going on without a Mage in the group. Though I am sure there are some ways around it for the Mage.
For all the good that is in SR5 I can't see why peeps continue to just bash it before using it in gameplay. Theory is shit until it is proved, so fragging try it. Maybe it's horrible. Maybe it's awesome. Maybe you have to break your normal way of thinking and get creative.
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That's a false equivalency - the hacker isn't the only one who can notice Matrix stuff.
Noticing it and doing something about it, however, are two entirely different things.
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It keeps magic being that thing that is feared by those who can't use it (as it should be).
You seem to be in the minority on that one.
I'm glad it's more obvious. It's comforting knowing 5th is going down all the right paths and making all the right choices so far, with only a few possible exceptions.
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Well glyph now you can't be a Mage who does everything great, you gotta start specializing. Myself? I'm smelling a combat Alchemist. Something about an SMG in one hand and a wand that spits Ball Lightning's at corp teams in the other that makes me go "Yep, that's a good idea."
Well the thing is you have the choice of being a generalist or being a specialist, and the various specializations are now valid choices.
Back in 3rd edition I saw almost all Sorcerers (spellcasting specialists) because a) spellcasting was easy to understand, and b) it was such a tempting choice, with the ability to gain huge spell points and 1,000,000 nuyen with resources A. An elemental conjurer could be a powerful choice, but I only ever saw it done once, and the character was just like the magical version of a drone rigger. And it was damn expensive to do as you paid many thousands per elemental summoned.
So, I'm really happy there are several specialists that are valid choices this edition. I strongly suspect an Alchemist will be my first character choice in 5th edition as well. :)
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When it comes to the Alchemist making the items so mandarins can use them I'm thinking that would be a meta magic to look at putting in a Magic Source book. Maybe cost more to make but not to the degree of those anchoring those cost more then a new arm and leg.
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So, the people who have the book:
Can you tell us anything about what traditions are in the core book? How are they mechanically different? What are totems
like now? How do they work?
I see people with the book talking about all sorts of irrelevant things, but they seem to be ignoring the important stuff.
Or...is there no difference anymore, and all magicians are the same thing?
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Gator Shamans from 1-2e(3rd?) are they back? the 4e croc shaman was not nearly as cool. I liked the lazy big score gator shaman.
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Just curious, how hard would it be to convert some of the spells from SR4 to SR5?
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Real easy. You'd really only have to switch the drain modifier.
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Real easy. You'd really only have to switch the drain modifier.
Cool, means I can keep my slow spell for jumping off of buildings.
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So, the people who have the book:
Can you tell us anything about what traditions are in the core book? How are they mechanically different? What are totems
like now? How do they work?
I see people with the book talking about all sorts of irrelevant things, but they seem to be ignoring the important stuff.
Or...is there no difference anymore, and all magicians are the same thing?
I'll be brief because I have a lot of campaign work to do tonight:
Mentors now do something for pretty much all practitioners of magic (Bear gives Adepts 1 free level of Rapid Healing for instance). Other than that, they seem pretty much the same. As for if Gator is back... No. And neither is the Crocodile.
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So, the people who have the book:
Can you tell us anything about what traditions are in the core book? How are they mechanically different? What are totems
like now? How do they work?
I see people with the book talking about all sorts of irrelevant things, but they seem to be ignoring the important stuff.
Or...is there no difference anymore, and all magicians are the same thing?
I'll be brief because I have a lot of campaign work to do tonight:
Mentors now do something for pretty much all practitioners of magic (Bear gives Adepts 1 free level of Rapid Healing for instance). Other than that, they seem pretty much the same. As for if Gator is back... No. And neither is the Crocodile.
Curious, is the Seductress, Raven, or Trickster? Just curious on if they changed for magicians this time, and really interested in how they'd help Adepts
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Mentor Spirits have in addition to having an advantage for all Awakened, they have a "Similar Archetype" line to find one that meets your magician/Adepts ideals. So at this point if Gator or Crocodile is not in there, you could look at the Similar Archetypes to find something close.
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Bah no gator Shaman and yes we can houserule it like allways. Best Shaman in the game and for some reason dropped since 4e.
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Bah no gator Shaman and yes we can houserule it like allways. Best Shaman in the game and for some reason dropped since 4e.
What was the gator shaman perks and negative/
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+2 to Combat and Detection Spells, +2 dice for conjuing water spirits or City Spirits
Lazy, Greedy, impatient of subtlety, - 1 die to illusion spells.
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I don't even care about the perks, it was the description that was awesome.
"Gator is lazy and greedy. As an eater, he prefers to glut himself with food and then laze around. As a Shadowrunner, he prefers a job with a big payoff that will let him take it easy until all the money is gone. It can take some heft argument to make gator exert himself. His greed makes him loathe to share material goods, and he will almost never make loans or pick up the check. Once on a job, he goes for the direct solition and is impatiant with subtletey. To make gator break off a fight, a chase, or other direct action takes a willpower test."
It may have changed a smidge in 3e, I don't remember. I loved it.
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Bah. Who needs hungry toothy things?
What about Raccoon? :'( ;)
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I'll be brief because I have a lot of campaign work to do tonight:
Mentors now do something for pretty much all practitioners of magic (Bear gives Adepts 1 free level of Rapid Healing for instance).
So, would I be right in gathering from this that Mentors are:
This is the universal Ban:
This is how it benefits Hermetics.
This is how it benefits Shamans.
This is how it benefits Aspected Magicians.
This is how it benefits Adepts.
Or is
This is the Ban.
This is how it benefits Magicians
This is how it benefits Aspected Magicians
This is how it benefits Adepts.
Or is it
This is the Ban
This is how it benefits sorcerers.
This is how it benefits conjurers.
This is how it benefits adepts.
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Giraffe totem is the best because it takes self preservation to levels beyond even those seen in Rat shamans, and also specializes in spotting enemies from a distance to better avoid them. And all the salads and vegetables you can eat, what a deal.
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Giraffe mentor: +5 Combat, +8 Perception, +15 Running
Giraffe followers must roll a composure test(5) to pull out of a fight.
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Giraffe mentor: +5 Combat, +8 Perception, +15 Running
Giraffe followers must roll a composure test(5) to pull out of a fight.
Quite the opposite. They have to roll composure to stay in a fight. They avoid all confrontations. Their big specialty is Detection spells. All the better to detect the guns and stay far away from them.
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Pfft, shows what you know. Giraffes are freakin' psycho, man. When a giraffe flips out, the lions are like "Whoa, take it easy... chill out." Even Wolverine is like "Maybe you should calm down a bit." Not the animal, the X-men member.
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Mentors give a bonus to Magicians (not specifying the exact type) and then adepts. Sorry for the confusion. I WISH they had been as detailed as to give shamans and hermetically different bumps from their chosen totems.
By the way, when you mentioned Wolverines I was thinking of Patrick Swayze.
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Mentors give a bonus to Magicians (not specifying the exact type) and then adepts. Sorry for the confusion. I WISH they had been as detailed as to give shamans and hermetically different bumps from their chosen totems.
Of course, if they did that putting out the new magic supplement and the new traditions therein would be a pretty serious amount of extra work. As in, "effects what is available for the rest of the book" extra work.
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I will say that the adept bumps are nice, but I suspect we'll see a lot of Wolf Adepts in the near future.
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Pfft, shows what you know. Giraffes are freakin' psycho, man. When a giraffe flips out, the lions are like "Whoa, take it easy... chill out." Even Wolverine is like "Maybe you should calm down a bit." Not the animal, the X-men member.
Hahah, you have a point, but it's mostly self defense. And the lions are more like "Holy crap, I pissed off a giraffe and now I'm dead." And there's the infamous neck duels, but that's inter-giraffe business.
Giraffe Kills Lion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwY3tx8_sQ
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Pfft, shows what you know. Giraffes are freakin' psycho, man. When a giraffe flips out, the lions are like "Whoa, take it easy... chill out." Even Wolverine is like "Maybe you should calm down a bit." Not the animal, the X-men member.
But Honey Badger just don't care.
Mentors give a bonus to Magicians (not specifying the exact type) and then adepts. Sorry for the confusion. I WISH they had been as detailed as to give shamans and hermetically different bumps from their chosen totems.
Yeah, but then you would have had to go into how each mentor reacts with each tradition, including druids, voodoo, psionics, shinto, chaos magic, christian theurgy, black magic, and so on. MAJOR pain in the ass.
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Mentors are generally set up like this
Mentor Name
Description
All: Benefit anyone gets for taking it.
Magician Benefit only Magicians get for taking it.
Adept Benefit only Adepts get for taking it.
Note: Mystic Adepts have to chose whether they are taking the Magician or Adept benefit when they pick their Mentor Spirit.
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Mentors are generally set up like this
Mentor Name
Description
All: Benefit anyone gets for taking it.
Magician Benefit only Magicians get for taking it.
Adept Benefit only Adepts get for taking it.
Note: Mystic Adepts have to chose whether they are taking the Magician or Adept benefit when they pick their Mentor Spirit.
This is a very good implementation.
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Basically it gives those mundane a a chance to understand what the fuck is going on without a Mage in the group. Though I am sure there are some ways around it for the Mage.
Don't read everything before so don't know what is the problem there, but you still had this chance before with the noticing magic rules and things like shamanic mask and so on.
That's a false equivalency - the hacker isn't the only one who can notice Matrix stuff.
Noticing it and doing something about it, however, are two entirely different things.
Same goes for magicians. And also, while you could perceive overlays visual feeds and so on given they are projected in some way, you will have to hack a hacker or intercept the feed to know what happens. Not the doing of not a hacker. And you can't really see what is happening in Matrix at the VR level when you are in AR, cause matrix representation is not the same usually, AR info being really partial.
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Basically it gives those mundane a a chance to understand what the fuck is going on without a Mage in the group. Though I am sure there are some ways around it for the Mage.
Don't read everything before so don't know what is the problem there, but you still had this chance before with the noticing magic rules and things like shamanic mask and so on.
That's a false equivalency - the hacker isn't the only one who can notice Matrix stuff.
Noticing it and doing something about it, however, are two entirely different things.
Same goes for magicians. And also, while you could perceive overlays visual feeds and so on given they are projected in some way, you will have to hack a hacker or intercept the feed to know what happens. Not the doing of not a hacker. And you can't really see what is happening in Matrix at the VR level when you are in AR, cause matrix representation is not the same usually, AR info being really partial.
It doesn't take a hacker to buy an agent with Electronic Warfare and the Analyze, Scan, and Browse programs. Some things you need the hacker for, but simply perceiving what's going on isn't really that hard.
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Mentors are generally set up like this
Mentor Name
Description
All: Benefit anyone gets for taking it.
Magician Benefit only Magicians get for taking it.
Adept Benefit only Adepts get for taking it.
Note: Mystic Adepts have to chose whether they are taking the Magician or Adept benefit when they pick their Mentor Spirit.
Hehe, this is kinda like we houseruled mentor spirits in SR4, although we handled the boni for adepts as favoured powers as per Way of the Adept instead of free adept power ranks.