Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Mara on <07-07-13/0136:26>
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I have run into an interesting dilemma. I have a group of PCs that started off as pre-gens for what was intended
to be a one-shot game. They were optimized for their roles in that game. We have a ex-Ganger Razorboy(twin cyberlegs
with spurs, one cyber arm with spurs, Move by wire, melee monster), Heavy Weapon Troll(Machine Gun Specialist, currently
rocks with a HV HMG), a TechnoShaman Technomancer(with AIPS, Sensitive Neural Structure, and Scorched), and the only change out: a Technomancer Sniper(Who will at some point be switching back to his original Shinobi Mystic Adept).
The problem I am running into is: the characters are darned good in combat. I have put even troops in mil-spec gear against them, and they just killed without breaking a sweat. I mean, the Heavy Weapon Troll took two bursts from an Assault Rifle firing AV Rounds, and just shrugged it off, then one shotted the shooter with a narroe burst of, of all things, Gel Rounds(fired
from the HV HMG). He stick n Shock one shotted a Force 8 Blood Spirit in another run. Now, on their current run, they were
out with just their pistols, and the tropp, tehcnomancer, and sniper, after the surprise round, one shotted all 5 gangers that
jumped them(I probably should have made it more gangers, mind you..but..)
I am running into a problem, and even the group kind of complains about this, that combat is not challenging for them. I really am at a loss for what to do without throwing CyberZombies in milspec armour, or, worse, Cyborgs in Otomo Drones in Milspec
body armour.
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Hi Mara,
No much advice, but try playing with the actual setting of the combat, eg on the roof of a fast moving train, in an airplane, etc.
Much the scenerary challenging, not so much the enemies. Won't work always, but could add a bit of flavour and challenge to the combat.
Eg on the back of a fast moving bullet train. balance test or holding on to the roof when anyone uses something with recoil or gets shot. Through a tunnel into the combat and a few foes with magnetic grips and a specialisation in judo and wham, should make life interesting.
A combat on a commercial plane. No weapons and any attack could cause a crash.
Battle in a oil refinery or somewhere 'explosive' one wrong shot and boom! its all over.
Anyway, its an idea.
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It's a difficult problem. Most of the options facing you are unsatisfying, but there are a few things you can do short of nuking them from orbit.
1) Do a timed running combat with an infinite supply of mooks. Basically you know that anything you throw against them is going to be shredded so try to run the Luke and Han escaping the death star scene. The point is not to kill the baddies, rather it's to get to point x in less than y minutes with mooks getting in the way etc. Play this fast and cinematic and it can be a lot of fun.
2) Have them hit instead of being the hitter. Take them off their stride, away from their gear etc. NB: You have to be very careful to keep this fair and fun, badly handled it can seem arbitrary and unfair.
3) Have them compete with another team of equally powerful runners for the same target. You can play this like the first option fun fast and cinematic. NB: Be careful because this can lead to monty haul type escalation or instagibs.
4) Play the big score for real. Lay it out for them. Impossible run with retire to the islands money at the end. Deal with a Dragon to infiltrate the Aztechnology pyramid for a multi million dollar score etc. Throw everything you can think at them, bleeding edge black ops, experimental cyberzombies, Top tier Combat mages. If they pull it off let them retire in glory. Make sure the players and the characters both understand what's going on going in. And then start over with a new group of runners in SR 5 (maybe voluntarily less optimized to give more room for challenge and growth) have the new runners here pieces of the big score as street legend and the kind of thing people whisper about in back rooms. Maybe have one of the survivors appear as a cameo npc (with the player's permission of course).
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A very simple thing you can do is put them in a situation where they just can't take all their biggest and best toys with them. Have them infiltrate a party where there's a decent scanner at the door, so only the smallest, most subtle weapons will get in. Have them stumble into an ambush in a nice neighbourhood, where they couldn't have been carrying their heavy ordinance for fear of being arrested. It's not the kind of move you can pull too often, as it can come across as a bit cheeky to deny them their precious toys, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to adapt to different situations sometimes.
Something else I'd point out - your group are missing spellcasters. Be a bit careful, but chuck a few decent spirits up against them and they might be surprised, especially if you learn the critter powers and use them well.
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For those suggesting that I take them away from their gear...that is the plan for the next job(they are getting the first Dawn of the Artifacts mission when they get to New York...they are already using loaner gear from their employer on their current mission, so they won't have their gear at all when they get to Africa.)
As for the group not having mages..they do have a mage...and an "ex" red samurai...these are the newest members of
the team, though, and they are more balanced. The Mage did, however, one shot a Magic 8 Vampire Blood Mage Grade 2
Initiate...(Player never came up with a name for the mage, so everyone just started calling her Boomstick...since she
is as subtle as a shotgun)
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If they're using SnS, why not use that in return? AV-rounds are not that impressive compared to Impact halved.
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A troll might be able to shrug of AV rounds, but he goes down just like everybody else from a nice Force 9 stunbolt. Or why do you think all player mages take that spell. :)
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If they're using SnS, why not use that in return? AV-rounds are not that impressive compared to Impact halved.
Non-conductive armor...all of them have it maxed..means that they have MORE soak against SnS then anything
else. And, the SnS is in the Trolls rarely used pistol. Capsule Rounds with Narcoject are in the Technoshaman's
Deputy. The Sniper's pistol is loaded with EX-EX...Most of the time, the Troll acts, and either uses Ivan(his Gonryu)
or Sasha(the HV HMG). If Ivan is used? Neurostun grenades...if Sasha is used, either APDS or Gelrounds are usually
used. He only had the SnS for fighting spirits...and they knew a spirit was going to be there thanks to Astral recon
by the Mage.
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I agree with all the suggestions already listed as things that will help. I really liked Black's idea of fighting on the back of a train will have to remember it for my own campaign since at times I seem to have the same problem. Here are a couple of observations, suggestions, and ideas that I have found to work.
You commented that they wiped out the gangers quick and brutal. A good team of runners should do that especially if they are combat focused. So that wouldn't worry me too much, but some of the other groups you mentioned should cause them at least to pause.
Here are some ideas and comments on what has already been mentioned.
1) Suppression fire. This won't necessarily help against the troll, but the others it will make them think at least about getting down. Multiple overlapping fields of suppression works really well. I've pinned down a whole runner team with one security guard for a whole combat turn (irony is he was the only guard not wiped out already by the team, but he had them in a panic)
2) Have the bad guys use cover. This not only helps them against bullets, but spells also.
3) Give the bad guys a professional rating (an edge pool for the group of mooks to share) or a higher one if you already are using it. Give the main villain his own edge too. Then use the extra dice when avoiding damage I tend to use it on the dodge roll.
3a) Have the bad guys go to full defense. With good stats this can make it even up dice wise to keep from getting hit. If used with the professional rating can give the staying power you are looking for. Also ironically often after a couple people miss the person who has dropped his action on full defense he will become the target for everyone since they think he must be the big baddy.
4) It has already been mentioned but is worth repeating. Ambush the party. Without their armor is particularly effective, but even in full gear it can be nasty. My favorite trick is have the slow rigger or not as combat oriented enemy be their sniper and he "starts" combat with his attack (after an action or two of aiming) so he hits then the rest of the NPCs break their delayed actions to hit in rapid succession. As was already mentioned also you need to be careful that it doesn't look like you are just gunning to take out the characters.
5) have the enemies use invisibility and chameleon suits. Not even all of them, but just one can be very effective. My runners just finally got the best of a knife throwing troll physical adept with a chameleon suit. They ran into him in the first adventure over two years ago (we run once a month) and have again from time to time and wiped out the rest of his group, but he has managed to escape several times.
6) I prefer APDS to SnS if you are looking for punch, but things that target impact like thrown knives by an experienced adept with a high strength or bow with a high strength can have a surprising hitting power.
I hope all of this helps.
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Reading your post while I was typing made me think of a couple other things that might help.
The narcojet would have been ineffective against the milspec armor if you give it chemseal. For the SnS preference of the group give the NPCs non-conductivity on their armor also. This would make particular sense if the NPCs know who they are going up against.
Another rule I have is I will use against the group anything they use against the NPCs so start have the bad guys in chemsealed armor tossing neurostun (or nastier chemicals) grenades at the group. Also smoke grenades work well to give visibility modifiers to help the bad guys live longer.
Again I hope this helps.
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Yes, my group has SnS...they also have APDS, Ex-Ex, KE IV, Narcoject, etc rounds. Remember, as I pointed out, the
Troll oneshotted a Prime Runner Build Red Samurai, in full armor, with GEL rounds... And this was even WITH using
Edge to re-roll failures.
Oh..as for Ambush...yeah: TacNet + High Perception skills...Every attempt to ambush had been detected. Heck,
the gangers that hit them ambushed them...and they got a critical glitch, and 2 hits. One hit was mostly soaked,
the other..the PC took 5 net damage...note that I expected the fight to be quick...but, I was surprised at how
effective they were with just their pistols, the weapons that only the Technoshaman has any professional grade
skill in.
I am hoping that having to get stuff in Lagos will...make things into an interesting challenge for them. But, I am not
sure if the Dawn of the Artifacts 1 will even be enough of a challenge for them in the ghoul fight...
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Try watching some goofy 80s action movies. They can be a good source for techniques to use to create tension even when the baddies aren't individually challenging.
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I will admit..I like the idea of them doing a run where they end up coming across ANOTHER group of runners, at their own level...and see how they deal with it. they are getting enough of a rep they should be getting some high profile runs
against competing teams...
Maybe have them do an extraction run....where Corpsec are tasked with keeping the person from leaving....even if
it kills the target of the extraction..I haven't had them do an extraction yet.
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If they are maxed out for combat, there's two things you can do.
1) Drop them in a mercenary environment. If they want to shoot everything, put them in the Yucatan, or Bogota. Soon they will start attracting the attention of tanks.
2) Have them do a political run. That way you don't have to make combat more challenging, because there will not be any.
And always have normal repercussions for any actions. If they shoot up an entire factory, that corp will react. And no Mr. J is going to hire them if they managed to get their faces all over the news with a high bodycount. Except the ones looking for people to go to Lagos or Bogota (or Chicago). Then go to point 1 above.
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Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.
Even if you aren't kicking them out of town, there are options. Paracritters can be horribly nasty, for example. Just watch them try to soak a Sea Wolf nomming on the Troll's face - or his weapon. If you send them hunting, expect them to have to lick their wounds. Never send just one paracritter, never forget their abilities, and they should be sweating pretty heavily.
Drones can be terrifying. You can send in dozens, for pretty cheap, it's expected that you can coordinate them, since generally a single Rigger is commanding a small army, maybe with two or three buddies to back him up, and that means that on each of the Rigger's IPs, they're sending about ten or twenty shots at the party, from whatever angle you please - up above, sliding on that overhead rail, or below, sliding out from a bunch of crates. Use a bunch of Micros, which are absurdly cheap, and harder to hit - a dozen Cyberspace Designs Dragonflies set up to kamikaze will lead to a brown pants moment. Or, you know, just send in a few attack choppers, where you DO have to kill the chopper, not just the pilot, since the pilot is a few hundred miles away, and sitting behind five or so IC.
Explosives are fun.
Shedim. Shedim can do some real damage.
Ares is always playing with Bug Spirits. An outbreak in a secure lab is a good time to call in a Runner team, to see if anything can be salvaged before they nuke it.
Snipers. Not just one or two within five hundred feet, more a team of twenty scattered over ten or twenty miles, hidden by every means possible, guarded by several troublesome measures like Drones and mooks in closets, and explosives. If they're a real threat, and someone wants them gone, but can't do it with a single ambush, they'll call in measures like this.Snipers have some nasty ranges - exploit them, have snipers moving from their spot after shooting, have them use smoke and mirrors, comm calls and fake drops, to confuse, disorient, and delay the party, while they fire again, and again, and again. Have them take shifts, so that every twenty shots or so, they have full edge again.
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Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.
Funny story....they beat the Johnsons goons in one round....then tracked the Johnson down, beat his guards, then got their payment and sold the Johnson to Horizon...the corp that the Jonson had hired them to do a run against...the word among
Johnsons is "if you are going to backstab these guys...make sure it works...you only get one chance..."
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Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.
Funny story....they beat the Johnsons goons in one round....then tracked the Johnson down, beat his guards, then got their payment and sold the Johnson to Horizon...the corp that the Jonson had hired them to do a run against...the word among
Johnsons is "if you are going to backstab these guys...make sure it works...you only get one chance..."
So they've got their heads on straight, and their rep is pretty solid. Definitely paracritters. Or a run in with a forest of man-eating trees.
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1. Make them defend some squishy targets and pay them based on how they survive
2. Explosives, stun grenades and area effects. Explosives are often the best way to take nearly anything down, but it's also treading on dangerous TPK and angry player territory. The other thing is that corps often don't want to blow their own place and stuff up. Stun grenades and smoke grenades are better. Just having guards toss around stun grenades and duck behind desks is hideously effective. Actually, it can also lead to a TPK, as I was a player in one recently. (Although it was Company Men tossing the grenades, not rentacops, so that also made it works so well, perhaps too well, because even if the throw fails, a building is an enclosed area and there's still a decent chance of PCs being stunned. And even if the guards stun themselves, the players were going to kill them anyway. And there can be more guards. Kind of a cheap tactic, but not too bad if used by rentacops.
3. Just some smoke grenades, rentacops, and some doors not connected to the Matrix can cause a team to fail a shadowrun due to time constraints and the police coming.
4. Open ground and guards with sniper rifles or hunting rifles. Towers for them if you want it worse. And if you really want to be a jerk, make it an MTC Zero Zone with killer drones, gun enmplacements, and clouds of nerve gas.
5. If your players are walking around in military spec armor, take it away. There are missions where it's possible to wear it, but they shoudn't be the norm. Make use of checkpoints. My street sam is nearly always forced to use Ingram Smartguns, precisely because they are concealable.
6. Pincer movements. This is usually done by SWAT and response teams. They come at the runners from more than one direction. Make use of skirmishers too, just like you'd do in a strategy war game. Some light forces whose job isn't to win, but to just distract or pin down the runners, while the experts flank them. The skirmishers may make use of grenades or smoke grenades.
7. Design the battlefield to favor the defending corp forces. Give them cover and take the runner's away.
8. Ninja archers, especially strong ones.
9. Spirits. These make great skirmisher forces, as mentioned above.
10. Ares Screech and sonic weapons.
11. Vehicle combat. My players are frightened of this because crashes are so deadly.
.So they've got their heads on straight, and their rep is pretty solid. Definitely paracritters. Or a run in with a forest of man-eating trees.
Ah yes, packs of hellhounds.
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The last run my group did I ambushed their vehicle. Literally had the bad guys pull in front of them to get them to stop. (it mainly worked) As the troll mage threw open the back to pile out and start hitting back he saw the incoming grenade and put up a physical barrier around the vehicle instead. Two people from the rooftops had the back covered and when he dropped the spell and made a run for it had to put up with suppression fire and another grenade.
It became fairly intense and they were worried, but made it through pretty easily when all was said and done because they worked together.
A question that comes to mind is are the players feeling or complaining combat is too easy? I know at times I think they walked the combat because it didn't last as long as I had hoped, but the players are talking about how worried they were during it.
Another time the group was ambushed coming out of their meet with the Mr. Johnson so they weren't in their "main" armor. The group's tank took the initial sniper shot and ran inside because he took 6-7 boxes of damage. Again they fought off the attack fairly quickly, but were worried about it.
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They only have 1 mage? Throw two mages at them, once Counterspelling is used up on the obvious Blaster Mage, let the subtle Manipulation Mage do his/her thing. i.e. suddenly that Heavy Troll's guns are pointed at the Group...
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And if you send mages against them I suggest being creative with Elemental Effects!
My personal favorites include:
Sound - Stun Damage with no Armor and possible nauseating (SM, p. 165)
Sand - Physical damage, Half Impact Armor, may jam unsealed Weapons (SM, p. 165)
Light - Physical damage, Half Impact Armor, Glare Modifier (SM, p. 164)
Especially Half Impact Armor + Stun Damage work pretty well on High Body Soakers.
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Against armor: acid? =)
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Funny you guys should mention Paracritters....
They Roflstomped in one run the following: A pack of hellhounds, a group of biodrone wolverines, and a group of genetically engineered and modified "Weaponized Drop Bears." (this run, BTW, was to pay for the cleaning of the Appaloosa they liberated
off some mercs guarding a target they were after....)
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Funny you guys should mention Paracritters....
They Roflstomped in one run the following: A pack of hellhounds, a group of biodrone wolverines, and a group of genetically engineered and modified "Weaponized Drop Bears." (this run, BTW, was to pay for the cleaning of the Appaloosa they liberated
off some mercs guarding a target they were after....)
Hey...Drop Bears don't exist...
Hahah, I did say packs of hellhounds, as in plural. And make them toxic and with bees coming out their mouths. :)
wired dobermans are my favorites. They always freak people out well out of proportion to how dangerous they are.
Wyrms and other water hazards are great. Runners are pretty vulnerable in general out on the water.
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Just my two cents but using "traps" to weaken the characters and put them at a disadvantage before the fight might be helpful...?
Dont over do it or make it impossible to defend against but nanites, toxins, freeze foam, glue, plenty of other chemicals, gases and fog etc. There are so many ways to knock a few dice out of thier pools and even the odds, especially when they are targeted by the traps or the defenders know whats coming (cause they put it there) and are geared appropriatley.
you know the kinda of things your guys carry and what they are proteced from, find some things that they might have over looked and use them. also be creative, Hellhounds are big and dangerous but also presnt a large target, paracritter bugs on the other hand (or even microdrones) are small, hard to notice, hard to hit, and can pack a punch thru toxins, tasers etc.
when the 22 dice pool becomes a more managable 14 those corp sec may start being more than just meat for the grinder...
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Okay. How much karma are they sitting on, here?
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Have you thought of simply putting a strong team against them... A big fat troll with a canon, to show your troll how it is done...
Adversaries don't have to be gangers or security guards. two runner teams could be sent on the same objectives. Most of the run will follow the normal rules of your characters out gunning anything around, only to be surprised by an equaly good team. They could become ennemis or friends depending on how the scene is played.
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Sometimes it's okay to retire your runner team. If they're walking over everything but cyberzombies, master shedim and great dragons it might be time to re-roll.
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Sometimes it's okay to retire your runner team. If they're walking over everything but cyberzombies, master shedim and great dragons it might be time to re-roll.
That time is way up there though, and story is also a factor. The funny thing is that the game is set up so that the real main Megacorp sites are very very hard to hit. (The Seattle Azzie Pyramid for example) I pretty much never see a campaign last long enough for that to even happen. Most of our targets are lesser. The exception being when the Johnson hands the team an insider or some type of entry. I did that one time to allow a team to penetrate the Azzie pyramid in Seattle for an extraction, but it was done by one Azzie faction hiring the runners to embarrass another faction.
The game isn't set up very well for the one big boss monster of the week type thing either. Exceptions to this such as Great Dragons are usually behind the scenes players. It's about the shadowrunner team versus security systems (Of which monsters and guards are only part of that system) Just look at how many spirits of high force are available to all the mages in the Azzie pyramid. There isn't a runner in existence who can just run up there with his assault cannon and live out a Pink Mohawk fantasy. (Unless a GM really wants that to happen)
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Another option for ramping up difficulty is the survival horror model. Let the players be trapped somewhere (they're extraction is blown on a run in the Yucatan, or they're inside the ACHE when the salvagers wake up a latent Deus fragment, or they're guests at an ARES firewatch training facility when the commanding officers are taken by bug spirits) with limited ability to escape or resupply. The drama comes not from the difficulty of any individual beasty, but from not knowing whether the ammo will last.
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When you start an escalating arms race like is being suggested, be aware that not only are you more likely to kill some of them, if you don't kill all of them, the survivors could possibly loot everything you threw at them and you've just made your job even harder next time, so make sure you put the obvious time pressure as was mentioned on them so they have to keep moving ("you hear the roar of the personnel transport drawing near'). If they stop to do it despite knowing the crunch is coming, spank 'em. If things are as straight-forward easy for them as it sounds though, it really indicates you just need to study the game better, IMO. Learn more of the ins and outs.
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Note that most of my suggestion haven't been "arms race" style, but rather have focused on things like resupply and pacing to provide dramatic tension.
One of SR4s major flaws (in my opinion) is how easy it is for a munch minded player to put themselves into mythic status right out of the gate. A reasonable understanding between player and GM about power level and style out of the gate is the best way to deal with this problem. Fixing it after the PC are no longer in keeping with the universes fluff is always going to be imperfect.
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Or just do the 4 Harlequins! It is ripe with whinin' Immortals but hey, they are Immortals and no one can touch them ... right? ... RIGHT? :p
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Note that the OP originally asked specifically for ways to make combat more exciting. Although the discussion did kind of morph as they like to do. :)
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Note that the OP originally asked specifically for ways to make combat more exciting. Although the discussion did kind of morph as they like to do. :)
Yes..and so far, only one fight has lasted more then 1 round. Even against 20 Halloweeners, that fight only
lasted 2 IP...(Suppressive fire from the HMG, white phosphorous grenades from the Mystic Adept and then
the mage one-shotted the Weener's mage, the Razor boy cut up two gangers, and the "ex" Red Samurai
and the Tecnhoshaman shot up the other gangers, with the Technoshaman pulling out his Sheriff)
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Yes..and so far, only one fight has lasted more then 1 round. Even against 20 Halloweeners, that fight only
lasted 2 IP...(Suppressive fire from the HMG, white phosphorous grenades from the Mystic Adept and then
the mage one-shotted the Weener's mage, the Razor boy cut up two gangers, and the "ex" Red Samurai
and the Tecnhoshaman shot up the other gangers, with the Technoshaman pulling out his Sheriff)
Hah, Halloweeners are well, wieners. Try some Spikes troll gangers on their harleys. (Definitely must upgrade them as Spikes are meant to be one of the strongest gangs) One of their favorite tactics is just to full out crash into vehicles and people with their enormous amounts of weight. If just a few of them manage to get close to your person or vehicle it's probaly already too late for you. My players managed to avoid this when I used them through the clever use of trip lines and a parking garage, which is where they were when the Spikes came after the squishy weapons dealer the team was guarding. I also had the Spikes send the runners a text message with a link to a youtube type site which displayed a video of the Spikes overturning an armored car with bikes and bodies, as an intimidation tactic.
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Thanks for that one, GiraffeShaman...I did not know that about the Spikes...and the group has...done some
stuff for people allied with the Ancients..
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Fight on a cargo ship at sea during a storm...
- large waves require strength tests with modifieres for slippery decks, recoil, how heavily they are encumbered and holding onto things
- but a second roll to grab something (dropping gear though) before washing of deck
- vision mods for heavy storm and waves
- cargo containers break free... look out!
- explosive cargo... wrong shot sets something off and now they ship really is sinking! where are the life rafts!
Back of a high speed train
- rolls for not fall off when unsecure - eg knock down only requires half body, recoil causes rolls, hand to hand causes rolls.
- but a second roll to hold onto the side of the train at the last minute
- jumping from carriage to carriage
- and tunnels! can you duck quickly enough to keep your head!
- and what the heck, throw in a helicopter and drones
- oh and the bridge above the canyon that seems to go forever.... hell of a fall! (but it is into a river below, so maybe they survived?)
Caught in the Cross Fire - third world city during a coup/rebellion
- lots of mooks, low level, but so random.
- any resistance attracts more attention.
- more attention equals more mooks, missle launchers and small armoured vehicles..
- and the tank. Frag! Where did that Tank / Armoured Walker Type Vehicle come from?
Dance of Death - low-key discrete leathal combat
- set up - hired to attend a high security high class event and prevent an assassination.
- but not reveal the attempt (ie stop the attack but don't attract attention
- So, no obvious weapons or armour
- and the assassin is a highly skilled adapt... with a partner.
- magic security will detect any 'dangerious' spells, so even magic needs to be used carefully.
- can the runners prevent carnage during a wicked waltz of death without attracting attention?
Chemical factory
- fight on the catwalks... the very fragile catwalks
- above steaming containers of chemical goodness.
- and pipes which seem to explode steam and acid with just a glancing hit from the lowest calbire fire arm
Under the sea
- Acrology under the sea
- glass walls which are not that bullet proof
- walk ways/tunnel/pipes between flooding habitats... but move quick, you may be sealed into the flooded section
- sparking electricals and the occasionally live environment. Can you jump from ledge to ledge and avoid a shocking death while mid-combat?
- half flooded tunnels... and what do they conceal
- yes, an escaped paracritter!
Sewers
- fighting in darkness (no UV)
- hip deep in gunk... and what it may conceal (heck, even a drone attack)
- tunnels in every direction, lots of cover and flanking opps
- pip[es which may contain sewerage... or gas
- roof climbing ops, with cover provided by the pipes.
- and infection for all those who are wounded!
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Sometimes when I run into this, I take another look and realize that I've ignored a modifier table, or letting the characters get away with a sloppy rule interpretation. Other times, though, you've just got a grade A bunch magnificent bastards at your table.
The previous statements about using the setting are exceptional. Might I also suggest that you've missed out on some opportunities to have a point or two of background count? Magic labs/storage facilities, other mages' hideouts, or even just a mana static spell can ruin your adept's day, not to mention snuff out a support spirit or two.
Keep in mind there are plenty of ways to create tension for a character besides going for their damage boxes. Sometimes it requires a lot of this: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit). It sounds like you know your players and their characters well, and can plan for their responses. As their public awareness rating rises (and it sounds like these fellas make the rounds on the underground trids once in a while), they're bound to catch either the attention or the ire of someone who can do the same. This can lead to a variety of inventive setups that either play to the characters' weaknesses or rely on them leaning on their strengths and thus, also, playing into your hands.
For instance, the Johnson they beat had to work for someone, right? And that guys's a patient sumbitch. He's waited all this time learning about who the group's major supporters are (their friendliest Johnsons/fixers, etc.). Then he arranges for the blackmailing/kidnapping/entrapment/etc. of a close personal contact, to be avoided on on the completion of mission/missions against their own backers, probably the ones with whom he has the most beef. All while planting breadcrumbs of evidence pointing to his own political/criminal/personal enemy, who's too powerful for him to touch but at whom he's happy to throw his other enemies all day long. If the team kicks the door down on his enemy, he wins (probably killing off their contact just for spite). If they attack their own backers in their usual style (probably blowing their loyalty), he wins. And if they eventually put all the pieces together and finally get to go kick that guy's ass, they'll talk about it forever. And isn't that really why we go through all that work in the first place?
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The group has some....interesting people that are interested in them. The direction the game is going is going to have them in GeMiTo as part of the assets against Alamais in the big finale of that arc. I have lots of little things planned, as well..frankly, they
haven't connected the dots yet on who is pulling the strings with their Fixers and Johnsons...(Note..they already had a Fixer
leave town after their spectacular run into the ACHE, to get some data out of an unsecured area, and their killing of the Renraku
Johnson that came after them AFTER the meet...but set them up at the meet, and they didn't even realize it)
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Hate to say it, but sounds like you are running out of options for this group in terms of combat options. The only things l can suggest have already been mentioned but here are a few others.
TACTICS
Don't have the bad guys be static targets, they should be using cover, and covering fire. Area suppression, drones, spirits and and all the other wonderful things. Focus firing works great at taking down Trolls. Sure they shrug off one or two hits. but if a team of 6 open up at said troll each with 2 narrow bursts... that -11 dice to his reaction test! He gonna get hit, and it's gonna start to hurt.
If they are starting to make a big rep in the shadows and someone starts hunting them, be logical about it. The hunters wouldn't try to take out the team while they are all together, but gank them one by one when they are separated. Once you have them on their own, you don't need massive numbers or unrealistic opponents to be a threat, you just need average baddies to do the work.
Take into consideration the setting for the runs. it's pretty damn hard to get an heavy machine gun ANYWHERE in the city, same goes for anything more then an armored jacket for armor. If their usual roll out makes them look like a military assault team, then they should expect a Military response. I don't care how much damage they can put out.... once the ammo is gone, the authorities win. (so enforce ammo tracking! and realistic loads... I don't care if it is a troll, he can not pack around 10,000 rounds of ammo with him!)
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Whenever I get a combat heavy group in my team, I will do what I call the 'Smoking Aces Run.' And surprisingly enough, it's exactly what it sounds like. The characters are hired to do a high-profile extraction where EVERYONE is looking for Joe McGuffin, and EVERYONE is trying to either hit or extract this guy. Design various monstrosities of characters to lay waste to everything or get this guy (my favorite was 3 ork brothers who roll in with heavy weapons and a combat axe, but I'm just simple like that). If that still doesn't make you feel like they will be challenged, make the PC's the guys protecting this schmoe. Fending off LS/KE, potentially multiple runner teams, and dealing with McGuffins personal nuances (refusing to leave his hotel room, etc. etc.) might be enough to get a good challenge out.
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Have enemies who know how area-effect spells work and thus a) have a Counterspelling magician doing their thing and b) spread out to avoid getting caught in one radius. Have them geek the mage first and remember that focus-fire makes sense and going for the hardest target first doesn't. So they mop up the squishies before going for the troll tank.
On which note, a troll drake mystic adept from a possession tradition often offends ;-)
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Have enemies who know how area-effect spells work and thus a) have a Counterspelling magician doing their thing and b) spread out to avoid getting caught in one radius. Have them geek the mage first and remember that focus-fire makes sense and going for the hardest target first doesn't. So they mop up the squishies before going for the troll tank.
On which note, a troll drake mystic adept from a possession tradition often offends ;-)
Amusingly: if they go for the troll LAST? They are dead from the HMG or his back up assault rifle or are knocked out by the Gonryu in suppressive fire
with Neurostun grenades...