Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Typhus on <07-20-13/1641:02>
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I'd love to hear how people's 5e GM experiences are going, moreso as far as the system than stories though. How are you and your players contending with limits and things that can potentially slow down a game session like the Init count juggling, and calcing recoil mods, etc? Did you find the new rules easy to get your head around or did you have to stop and research stuff mid game? Do you feel like you most likely used everything as written or did you wing things and what made you feel that way?
Thanks in advance.
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I find the SR5 initiative system runs faster than SR4's, given that there are half as many numbers to keep track of. Limits, too, sometimes actually speed up the game by making them (while counting hits) "One, two, three, four...that's it" instead of continuing to count out hits. Little things.
Recoil modifiers are taking some getting used to, but the truth is, I completely ignored recoil in 4th edition so I don't know if it's actually more or less involved. Only one of my characters so far has even used an automatic (so far about 5 game sessions between my running games.)
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Have you found players dislike losing hits due to limits? Seems like that would be a risk, you roll seven but can only use 4. I know some players that would find that disappointing after a bit. My players always loved improbable rolls that generated more hits than expected in previous editions, was always a cause for celebration at my tables. Just curious how that part is playing out for GMs.
Interesting about init. Did you have many people modding their totals to boost defense?
Thanks.
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There's been a little bit of that, but there's been more of "well ok, how do I get higher limits?" Which drives them to bump up their attributes (or buy a better cyberdeck), which is part of the point of them.
I haven't had anyone use the interrupt actions yet, actually.
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I'm not the GM for our missions, but I am our resident "rules lawyer" so work with the GM a lot on how to address system issues. (I also am the GM a lot and am our most experienced shadowrun player, just not running this round of play.)
1) This I find the initiative plays pretty fast. (We actually use a magnet board that shows where people are for order, and when someone uses a defensive action, it's easy to move them down 5 initiative.
2) Limits haven't been much of a problem. As a player I hit limits more than anyone, but I expected that going in. I kind of like the mechanic actually. I like it much better than the target number modification used as a second mechanic together with dice pools in SR3. It's clean and easy to understand.
3) We've had no ware hacking for or against the players. (Our main decker is also the rigger, and spends time with drones over hacking enemies. Our secondary decker doesn't have a deck.)
4) Recoil is one mechanic we've had to look up and watch more than any other. I think that was mostly learning curve though. We didn't have any issues with it slowing things down in our 3rd session.
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Here are mine, we're 2 and a half runs in so far:
1. Defensive combat is vastly improved. Full defense is frequently used, both sides trying not to die...had one fight last 6 combat rounds.
2. Combat flow is much faster(initiative is way better, obviously). That 6 round combat probably took as much real time as a 3 round fight in 4th.
3. Limits give players good incentive to spend edge wisely. This has kept people more conservative with their edge, less 'blow it all on alpha strike'.
4. Magic is WAY more balanced now. The indirect combat spells are quite powerful but the twitchy types aren't at a disadvantage against those. Spirit drain makes it far more risky to try and bring a fight-changing force 8-10 spirit out when things get nasty. Direct combat spells are still quite powerful, but not one-shottable. Just a good way to get an edge early instead of an instant win.
5. Matrix feels a LOT more like illegal, dangerous hacking against The Man. OS is a constant concern, wiping out a Hosts defenses and then having the team control the building is no longer an option except in the very short term. No more storming the building's nodes, killing/incapacitating all Matrix security personnel and the like.
6. Training times, guidelines for cash awards have made the game quite a bit more consistent and coherent as far as pacing and downtime are concerned.
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Things I miss/ wish had not changed from forth edition.
1) No more narrow bursts, they were a good way to seperate those who where good with automatics from those who were great with them. I wish they were still in fifth.
2) The amount of armor you can wear is now unrelated to what your body score is. This means that everyone is wearing the exact same thing (armored jacket and a helmet or military gear and a helmet) was more interesting and felt more fair when a body 8 troll street samuria could wear more armor than a body three elf Mage.
3). Only one attack action per round. I miss being able to fire off two long bursts, especially given that there's not much you can really do with that extra simple action other than possibly aiming for one round.
4) Recoil build up. You now need hilarious amounts of recoil compensation to do your job as a street samurai, like 15+ probably more in the low twenties to be honest when in the old game you just needed 11 and could call it a day. I expect to see a lot more tripods, gyro mounts and whatever else you can get among other runners now and it is still not enough to fire off consecutive full bursts, and given the lack of being able to shoot two people with a pair of long bursts on either simple action you will be wanting ot use full burst to deliver as much pain on the one guy you can shoot as possible.
5) Grenades are hilariously (in the sense of I laugh so I do not break down crying) effective and just became unquestionably the best weapon in any fight that does not feature you being right next to your enemy, I miss when magic was the thing you most had to be afraid of in combat now you need to geek the guy with the grenade launcher instead of the Mage, and every mook is going to have an Ares Alpha so good luck figuring out who is going to lay down a ton of AOE damage on the entire team because he managed to roll three hits on twelve dice.
Those five things are what irritate/annoy/depress me most about 5th.
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1) Damage staging isn't needed for that, especially not in SR5 (given the higher defense pools).
2) The amount of extra armour you can wear (+armour items) is proportional to Strength now. This both allows variance for stats and makes it so that Body isn't the only thing that matters in soak rolls. Also, now you wear different armour for the varying advantages of the armour, and not just whatever hits your cap
3) ... Sorry, but are you really suggesting there's nothing else to be done with a simple action". More generally, this change reallly matters from a balance standpoint, espcially given the changes to damage codes.
4) Or you can do somethiing other than shooting long enough to reset recoil. How is encouraging better use of available options a bad thing? A Sam's job isn't just to shoot every pass.
The grenade rules are problematic, thought.
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1) Damage staging isn't needed for that, especially not in SR5 (given the higher defense pools).
2) The amount of extra armour you can wear (+armour items) is proportional to Strength now. This both allows variance for stats and makes it so that Body isn't the only thing that matters in soak rolls. Also, now you wear different armour for the varying advantages of the armour, and not just whatever hits your cap
3) ... Sorry, but are you really suggesting there's nothing else to be done with a simple action". More generally, this change reallly matters from a balance standpoint, espcially given the changes to damage codes.
4) Or you can do somethiing other than shooting long enough to reset recoil. How is encouraging better use of available options a bad thing? A Sam's job isn't just to shoot every pass.
The grenade rules are problematic, thought.
1) I do not understand what you and mean by "damage staging is not needed for that" could you clarify?
2) I may need to read the book more fully (my experiences are based on playing at Origins) but it seems like everyone wore the same armor, Can you clarify what a strength seven troll can wear for armor that a strength 3 elf can not?
3) The changes to damage codes don't matter as much because as I mentioned in point one, narrow bursts vanished from the system which has caused all automatic users damage to more or less blend together. Give me some examples of stuff you think they should be doing with a simple action.
4) You're right, I think, I'll use one simple action to enable wireless on a grenade, one simple action to throw it, then DNI implant lets me use my free action explode it to deal 18 P -2AP to somebody's face when I roll three hits on the fifteen dice I have in heavy weapons to one guy, also known as as much damage as I would be doing if I got 5 net hits after he gets an attempted to dodge if I was attacking him with bullets from an Ares Alpha using explosive ammo.
(I will continue to harp on grenades because they are vastly overpowered and break the system in my opinion, any argument about 5th needing to nerf this or boost that falls flat on its face when it made grenades the king of combat)
Also what exactly should a street samuria be doing in combat other than shooting people? I would love to hear examples since in my book if the street samuria has one job, and that is to clean people's clocks as combat, as many of them and as quickly as possible.
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Getting a defense bonus from cover is now a Simple Action. You need to spend a Simple Action to ready your weapon before you can fire it. Take Aim is necessary to negate Range modifiers with vision magnification, and is also a Simple Action. You will occasionally need to reload, which is multiple actions. If you turned off wireless to prevent your gun from getting bricked, switching from Semi auto to Full auto, or anything else that requires changing the device mode, is also a Simple Action. Using any item, such as a drug for initiative boosting, is a Simple Action.
You are complaining about a bunch of things that I find to be significant improvements over 4th across the board. I'm glad narrow bursts are gone, I'm glad you can only attack once per pass, I'm glad recoil actually does something now, and I'm glad grenades and rockets can actually hit the broadside of a barn.
And I can only assume you Pink Mohawk it up to the max if everyone is running around in full military armor plus helmets, carrying ares alphas, and is throwing/shooting grenades at everything.
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Getting a defense bonus from cover is now a Simple Action. You need to spend a Simple Action to ready your weapon before you can fire it. Take Aim is necessary to negate Range modifiers with vision magnification, and is also a Simple Action. You will occasionally need to reload, which is multiple actions. If you turned off wireless to prevent your gun from getting bricked, switching from Semi auto to Full auto, or anything else that requires changing the device mode, is also a Simple Action. Using any item, such as a drug for initiative boosting, is a Simple Action.
You are complaining about a bunch of things that I find to be significant improvements over 4th across the board. I'm glad narrow bursts are gone, I'm glad you can only attack once per pass, I'm glad recoil actually does something now, and I'm glad grenades and rockets can actually hit the broadside of a barn.
And I can only assume you Pink Mohawk it up to the max if everyone is running around in full military armor plus helmets, carrying ares alphas, and is throwing/shooting grenades at everything.
I am simply stating the things about 5th edition that I find troubling and if you enjoy them good for you.
That said, Shadowrun is very Alpha Strikey and more to the point combat in it is very "logistics based" in my opinion, in the sense that setting up a fight correctly is half or even three quarters of the fight.
Unless you get taken by surprise you should not need time to ready your weapon, if you have a competent decker you should be able to fearlessly slave your gun to his equipment then leave wireless on and more to the point, you should have your gun already set on whatever mode you use most (can you only do full bursts in full auto mode can't remember right now).. You should have already taken your drugs before the fight started, you should be able to sneak close enough that range modifiers are not an issue most of the time.
Also I have NEVER seen a fight last long that someone with an assault rifle needed to reload unless they were using it for suppressive fire only.
By general rule of thumb my team would actually wear the armored jacket and helmet most of the time with the military armor only comming out for the times we do not care about the police (like if we were going into the terminal/badlands /some place else with no cops) though my team has not done any 5th edition runs yet.
Honestly I do not think it is any more pinkmowhawky to be ready to win fight as quickly as possible rather than dragging it out and giving more time for other people to show up /hear what is going on. Grenades are the quickest way to end fights in 5th edition and give hilariously powerful attacks even when you only have a relatively meager dice pool (you only need 3 hits so 15 dice should be more than enough to guarantee a hit every time,)
I can not change what other people like or do not like about Shadowrun, but it feels like everything in 5th got hit with the nerf bat from direct combat spells to automatics to gunnery (since vehicles/drones no longer give unlimited recoil compensation) with the exception of grenades.
I would be willing to forgive most of 5th editions changes, if they didn't tend to highlight just how overpowered grenades are compared to every other comparable combat option from guns to magic.
At least in 4th edition when everything was broken it was fractally broken, where everything from stunbolts dropping whoever they were aimed at to stunballs clearing an entire room to S&S loaded submachine guns using an extended HV burst to take out an entire other shadowrunning team in one action (four people equlas each one of them getting to ear a narrow short burst). Now however, at the risk of repeating myself grenades have become so much stronger than everything else that it seems to suck all the fun out of combat, because either you win with them, which requires no skill, or you loose to them, and that's even worse because you're getting your ass blown off by some random mook with only 12 dice to attack you with,
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How common do you seriously think it is for grenades to start flying in a shadowrun? Do you think punk gangers carry grenades everywhere? Does Lone Star or Knight Errant hand out high explosives along with the taser and side arm? Do you really think Corp Sec likes the idea of a bunch of explosions going off in their own buildings?
Not a single sample grunt is armed with grenades, unless you count the smoke grenades the Professional Rating 5 and 6 guys are equipped with. And if the player decides to run everywhere with a bandoleer of high explosives strapped to his chest, he should expect his Notoriety and Public Awareness to skyrocket, because blowing shit up is not exactly subtle.
And just wait until Run and Gun comes out and we get the Sympathetic Detonation rules redone for 5th edition. Doubt anybody is going to be too willing to carry explosives when there's a significant risk of it going off while it's still strapped to you.
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How common do you seriously think it is for grenades to start flying in a shadowrun? Do you think punk gangers carry grenades everywhere? Does Lone Star or Knight Errant hand out high explosives along with the taser and side arm? Do you really think Corp Sec likes the idea of a bunch of explosions going off in their own buildings?
Not a single sample grunt is armed with grenades, unless you count the smoke grenades the Professional Rating 5 and 6 guys are equipped with. And if the player decides to run everywhere with a bandoleer of high explosives strapped to his chest, he should expect his Notoriety and Public Awareness to skyrocket, because blowing shit up is not exactly subtle.
And just wait until Run and Gun comes out and we get the Sympathetic Detonation rules redone for 5th edition. Doubt anybody is going to be too willing to carry explosives when there's a significant risk of it going off while it's still strapped to you.
The Ares Alpha is a perfectly respectable assault rifle, possibly even the best if you take it's higher recoil compensation over the Raiden's better accuracy. It has an underslung grenade launcher built right into it, simply use it to store and fire your grenades as needed (once again given the Alpha Strikey nature of Shadowrun you probably only need one grenade at the start of the fight to take out a guy and wound some of his friends), especially if you have another street samuria in the party who also took a "minor" in heavy weapons and has one grenade of his own to contribute.
Also telling me that the system will get better once we get a new splat book is cold comfort while that splat book is still just so much ink in a pen right now.
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The Ares Alpha is also completely illegal, so it's not like you can walk down the street with it slung over your shoulder.
But apparently, you think 100% of shadowrunner teams will carry grenades 100% of the time, and use them at the first opportunity, and that there will be no legal or reputation fallout for this?
Grenades are supposed to be an 'in case the drek hits the fan' weapon, not a Modus Operandi.
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I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey. Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5. Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).
As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules). Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.
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The Ares Alpha is also completely illegal, so it's not like you can walk down the street with it slung over your shoulder.
But apparently, you think 100% of shadowrunner teams will carry grenades 100% of the time, and use them at the first opportunity, and that there will be no legal or reputation fallout for this?
Grenades are supposed to be an 'in case the drek hits the fan' weapon, not a Modus Operandi.
Once again, 3/4th of a Shadowrun fight is in the set up, in this case knowing how to sneak your Ares Alpha with you into wherever you are going to have the fight, or knowing how to keep it hidden/evading police attention when you feel a situation is bad enough for you to use one.
I do not think that all Shadowrun teams will carry grenades and certainly not at always use them at the first opportunity but grenades are just so incredibly powerful and it requires so little cost to the a character to be proficient with them (once again only needing three hits with no dodge allowed) that it would seem silly for a street samurai not to have grenades be a tool they are effective with.
The problem here is that you and I are approaching the game from two different angles. You in my eyes are arguing that the overall setting of Shadowrun and a good game master will be able to discourage players from using grenades willy nilly.
My gripe is that grenades deal too much damage and too easy to land on target and a player should not have to expect/rely on a GM to make up for things that should have been resolved by the people who actually wrote the core rule book, by making grenades weaker/easier to defend against.
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I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey. Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5. Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).
As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules). Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.
By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?
If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?
More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?
If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).
You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.
The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.
But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.
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I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey. Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5. Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).
As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules). Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.
By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?
If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?
More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?
If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).
You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.
The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.
But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.
First, I am of course referring to splitting your dice pool - that's the only way to achieve an attack against multiple targets. And no, you don't get twice as much recoil, because you haven't fired any more rounds.
Second, you have to consider things holistically - one system in isolation tells you precisely nothing. So, let's say you decide you're going to be firing full auto. Your target has, say, Intuition 4 and Reaction 4(6). He is also hiding behind an object that provides good cover (because he's not an idiot). Lets give the Sam Agility 6(8), Automatics 6, and a wireless smartgun for 16 dice, along with an Ares Alpha and a Strength of 4 allowing him to absorb the recoil from 5 rounds. As he fires 10, he's at -5 from recoil. He is further subject to a -6 penaltiy for blindfire, dropping him down to 5 dice. And just because I feel like it, the target is 28 meters away. The target loses 9 dice to FA, but gets 4 from his cover, and is using the Full Defense action to add his 3 Willpower. Meaning he's rolling 8 dice to defend against 5. His odds get even better if the sam has to instead shoot through the barrier. AND the sam doesn't have a Simple left to grab cover, so he's in trouble.
That doesn't sound like a sucker's game to me. In any case, a better definition of alpha strike is a tactic in which you unload as much offense as you possible can in the opening of combat, to the exclusion of anything else. In some mech games, for example, this refers to firing all your weapons at once (such that you cannot fire at all until one of them comes off cooldown). An alpha strikey game is one where this is the most effective tactic - but in fact, it's a better tactic to do things like circle around and flank your opponent to deny them the benefit of their cover, while using suppressing fire to prevent them from switching position.
As for good uses of a simple action: Observe in Detail (situational awareness is absolutely crucial), Take Aim, ready a grenade, throw a smoke grenade, ready a melee weapon (useful if you expect to need to make use of Interception)...
Anyways, as to armour: Any item that offers +Armour is limited by Strength. For example, if you want to wear a helmet and use a Ballistic or Riot Shield, you need Strength 8. Run and Gun will almost certainly expand the list of such items.
And at the end of the day, just pulling the trigger a whole bunch isn't a way to win a fight against a reasonably intelligent opponent. Tactics matter.
I do expect to see more people using Longarms now, though, because it got a much needed upgrade so that it's actually competitive.
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You're right, grenades are clearly unfair. We should reinvent these explosives to cause less harm to people caught in the blasts or at least be easier to avoid. It's completely ridiculous that a soldier can just toss a grenade into a building and everybody inside basically just dies or gets horribly injured. So unbalancing!
If you didn't catch the sarcasm, my point is, grenades are supposed to be ridiculously lethal, because that's just reality. You toss an explosive at somebody and that guy is basically screwed. Nerfing them or making it super easy to avoid damage is just unrealistic.
But it's also unrealistic for you to be able to just toss a grenade in a street fight and have nobody give a shit. Nobody likes being blown up, so the setting stepping in and punishing you for your lack of discretion IS the intended balancing factor.
So in conclusion: Not a bug, working as intended. Will not fix.
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The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
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The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
The only issue is with Wireless Link grenades. Timed grenades go off next turn, so you just run away. Motion Sensor grenades use normal Ranged Combat tests, complete with a dodge roll, with a -2 Area Attack defense penalty to the defender. Wireless Link doesn't look like it was fully written out properly. For one thing, it says it reduces scatter, but not by how much. On top of that, why is it scattering at all if it explodes instantly?
However, One drawback to Wireless Link is that you can't activate it, throw it, and detonate it all in the same turn. You have to spend at least one turn with it in your hand and activated, or on target and unexploded.
Ready Grenade is a Simple Action
Throw Grenade is a Simple Action
Turn on Wireless is a Free action
Trigger explosion is a free action.
So you ready it, turn on wireless, and throw it. Can't blow it up until next turn. Or you ready it, wait a turn with it in your hand, turn on wireless, throw it and trigger it. But they had a warning because they see you standing there for a turn with a grenade in shotput position.
And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
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Except that if you already have it in your hand, you can turn on, throw and explode it in a single action phase.
Someone claimed grenade launchers autoprime the wireless grenades, likely an interpretation based on that the launchers prime grenades to actually allow them to explode only after a minimum distance. I doubt a hacker can override that protection, since it requires you to actually physically tweak the launcher itself.
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Except that if you already have it in your hand, you can turn on, throw and explode it in a single action phase.
Someone claimed grenade launchers autoprime the wireless grenades, likely an interpretation based on that the launchers prime grenades to actually allow them to explode only after a minimum distance. I doubt a hacker can override that protection, since it requires you to actually physically tweak the launcher itself.
And if you already have it in your hand, they can see you have it in your hand and run for it in advance, or focus fire on you.
And the hacker doesn't have to override that protection. All he has to do is mark it and then delay his free action to detonate it as soon as it primes, which is 5 meters in front of your face. that's 6P -2 damage if you're firing HE grenades, 13P +5 if it was a frag.
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And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
I never get tired of using the phrase "grenade sniper", really. Grenade launchers have a max range of 500m, so good luck to the hacker with trying to find you in a 500m radius - and that's assuming he has any idea you're there.
Actually, if you really want to enter "are you freaking kidding me?" domain, you could buy an Agi-6 cyberarm at chargen for 30k (25k for Agi-5 for Trolls, 35k for Agi-7 for Elves), then save up 30k afterwards and install a grenade launcher in it, taking up all 15 Capacity - even if someone spots you, it's not like they'll notice you've got a grenade launcher in your arm from that distance if you're wearing long sleeves.
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And if you already have it in your hand, they can see you have it in your hand and run for it in advance, or focus fire on you.
Which is why you're in cover and keep that hand out of sight. It's a -2 penalty, sure, but the threshold is only 3.
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And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
I never get tired of using the phrase "grenade sniper", really. Grenade launchers have a max range of 500m, so good luck to the hacker with trying to find you in a 500m radius - and that's assuming he has any idea you're there.
Actually, if you really want to enter "are you freaking kidding me?" domain, you could buy an Agi-6 cyberarm at chargen for 30k (25k for Agi-5 for Trolls, 35k for Agi-7 for Elves), then save up 30k afterwards and install a grenade launcher in it, taking up all 15 Capacity - even if someone spots you, it's not like they'll notice you've got a grenade launcher in your arm from that distance if you're wearing long sleeves.
Good luck hitting with your minimum -6 on that roll for Extreme range, and I would quite frankly give you Strong winds to deal with as well on a grenade traveling half a kilometer, so that's -10. So even if you went Agility 9 Heavy Weapons 6 at chargen, you're trying to get 3 hits on 5 dice.
But I don't think anybody else here was really worried about artillery strikes from six blocks over when they were bitching about grenades.
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I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey. Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5. Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).
As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules). Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.
By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?
If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?
More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?
If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).
You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.
The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.
But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.
First, I am of course referring to splitting your dice pool - that's the only way to achieve an attack against multiple targets. And no, you don't get twice as much recoil, because you haven't fired any more rounds.
Second, you have to consider things holistically - one system in isolation tells you precisely nothing. So, let's say you decide you're going to be firing full auto. Your target has, say, Intuition 4 and Reaction 4(6). He is also hiding behind an object that provides good cover (because he's not an idiot). Lets give the Sam Agility 6(8), Automatics 6, and a wireless smartgun for 16 dice, along with an Ares Alpha and a Strength of 4 allowing him to absorb the recoil from 5 rounds. As he fires 10, he's at -5 from recoil. He is further subject to a -6 penaltiy for blindfire, dropping him down to 5 dice. And just because I feel like it, the target is 28 meters away. The target loses 9 dice to FA, but gets 4 from his cover, and is using the Full Defense action to add his 3 Willpower. Meaning he's rolling 8 dice to defend against 5. His odds get even better if the sam has to instead shoot through the barrier. AND the sam doesn't have a Simple left to grab cover, so he's in trouble.
That doesn't sound like a sucker's game to me. In any case, a better definition of alpha strike is a tactic in which you unload as much offense as you possible can in the opening of combat, to the exclusion of anything else. In some mech games, for example, this refers to firing all your weapons at once (such that you cannot fire at all until one of them comes off cooldown). An alpha strikey game is one where this is the most effective tactic - but in fact, it's a better tactic to do things like circle around and flank your opponent to deny them the benefit of their cover, while using suppressing fire to prevent them from switching position.
As for good uses of a simple action: Observe in Detail (situational awareness is absolutely crucial), Take Aim, ready a grenade, throw a smoke grenade, ready a melee weapon (useful if you expect to need to make use of Interception)...
Anyways, as to armour: Any item that offers +Armour is limited by Strength. For example, if you want to wear a helmet and use a Ballistic or Riot Shield, you need Strength 8. Run and Gun will almost certainly expand the list of such items.
And at the end of the day, just pulling the trigger a whole bunch isn't a way to win a fight against a reasonably intelligent opponent. Tactics matter.
I do expect to see more people using Longarms now, though, because it got a much needed upgrade so that it's actually competitive.
Your example does not make sense the way I Shadowrun.
Like I said 75% of the fight is the set up that means flanking, positions and denying your foes cover all should be taken into account before the first bullet gets fired, if the fight starts with your foes in cover than you have thoroughly screwed up your job. Even if they have cover availed to them they should not be in it when the fight starts and by spending edge to go first (possibly just in general also being faster as a good street samurai should be faster than any generic mook) you can get that one shot in, which like you said could probably kill them, before they ever get a chance to move to that cover.
Why would you ever start a fight with your foes in cover? If you start a fight in that situation you have probably been ambushed and you should probably be running away/looking for an exit.
Also you just don't shoot at people you can't see.
What you do is either shoot at someone who is the open, (or at least minimal enough cover that you can see them and do not take blind fire penalties) or you hold your actions and then dex off with the guy when he tries to pop out of cover and shoot him first.
Except that if they all have cover than yeah it's grenade time, because honestly that is what grenades were meant to do flush people out of cover.
Also no shadowrunners I would ever play would only have five points of recoil comp. Anyone should be able to get at least double digits, you use a wireless tripod that can deploy as a free action for six points of recoil comp, and gas vents three for another three, Ares Alpha has two and you're at 11 already without needing taking into account strength!
Tactics do matter in Shadowrun but in my book they are best all taken care of before the first bullet leaves the barrel.
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Good luck hitting with your minimum -6 on that roll for Extreme range, and I would quite frankly give you Strong winds to deal with as well on a grenade traveling half a kilometer, so that's -10. So even if you went Agility 9 Heavy Weapons 6 at chargen, you're trying to get 3 hits on 5 dice.
9 Agility, Heavy Weapons 6(9) as Adept, Specialty Grenade Launchers, Wireless Smartgun (which also lowers the Wind penalty to -3, so -6 is the only penalty taken. That's 22 dice, -6, 16 left. At 6+6+2+2-6 we're still at 10 dice for 3 hits, 70% odds.
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The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
The only issue is with Wireless Link grenades. Timed grenades go off next turn, so you just run away. Motion Sensor grenades use normal Ranged Combat tests, complete with a dodge roll, with a -2 Area Attack defense penalty to the defender. Wireless Link doesn't look like it was fully written out properly. For one thing, it says it reduces scatter, but not by how much. On top of that, why is it scattering at all if it explodes instantly?
However, One drawback to Wireless Link is that you can't activate it, throw it, and detonate it all in the same turn. You have to spend at least one turn with it in your hand and activated, or on target and unexploded.
Ready Grenade is a Simple Action
Throw Grenade is a Simple Action
Turn on Wireless is a Free action
Trigger explosion is a free action.
So you ready it, turn on wireless, and throw it. Can't blow it up until next turn. Or you ready it, wait a turn with it in your hand, turn on wireless, throw it and trigger it. But they had a warning because they see you standing there for a turn with a grenade in shotput position.
And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
Or you can just have it activated already and slaved to your decker's deck.
If he can't keep his deck from getting hacked you having a grenade go off will be the least of your problems and at least be a quick way to go,
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In all fairness I always operate under the assumption that I am either out of range of an enemy decker's attention zone or running wired and offline. I hate depending on a decker for not getting killed. For the less paranoid *cough*amateurs*cough* it's a nice option. ^_^
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In all fairness I always operate under the assumption that I am either out of range of an enemy decker's attention zone or running wired and offline. I hate depending on a decker for not getting killed. For the less paranoid *cough*amateurs*cough* it's a nice option. ^_^
Sorry for me one of the main advantages of having a Hacker on your team is them playing defense. Especially in 5th edition where you can no longer just skin link everything and call it a day if you want to.
The wireless grenade bonus is what makes them so character splattering and so you need to have them set to wireless on. Luckily with a good decker on your team your foes will never even know you have grenades let alone be able to find them and make attempts to get marks on them till it is too late.
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Your example does not make sense the way I Shadowrun.
Like I said 75% of the fight is the set up that means flanking, positions and denying your foes cover all should be taken into account before the first bullet gets fired, if the fight starts with your foes in cover than you have thoroughly screwed up your job. Even if they have cover availed to them they should not be in it when the fight starts and by spending edge to go first (possibly just in general also being faster as a good street samurai should be faster than any generic mook) you can get that one shot in, which like you said could probably kill them, before they ever get a chance to move to that cover.
Why would you ever start a fight with your foes in cover? If you start a fight in that situation you have probably been ambushed and you should probably be running away/looking for an exit.
Also you just don't shoot at people you can't see.
What you do is either shoot at someone who is the open, (or at least minimal enough cover that you can see them and do not take blind fire penalties) or you hold your actions and then dex off with the guy when he tries to pop out of cover and shoot him first.
Except that if they all have cover than yeah it's grenade time, because honestly that is what grenades were meant to do flush people out of cover.
Also no shadowrunners I would ever play would only have five points of recoil comp. Anyone should be able to get at least double digits, you use a wireless tripod that can deploy as a free action for six points of recoil comp, and gas vents three for another three, Ares Alpha has two and you're at 11 already without needing taking into account strength!
Tactics do matter in Shadowrun but in my book they are best all taken care of before the first bullet leaves the barrel.
... Wow, your GM is very generous. Tactics literally cannot be all taken care of before the shooting starts.
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The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
Thank you! This is more or less exactly how I feel! I am not sure if grenades were this broken in 4th and just did not notice it because everything was broken in 4th or if they only gained the ability to have same turn detonation in 5th but either way if you use the grenade launcher which can do short bursts and with wireless grenades, that 24P -4AP does as much damage as a cruise missile did in 4th edition if memory serves and will obliterate all but the toughest of troll sand even they will have to spend edge to soak enough of it to stay standing.
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Your example does not make sense the way I Shadowrun.
Like I said 75% of the fight is the set up that means flanking, positions and denying your foes cover all should be taken into account before the first bullet gets fired, if the fight starts with your foes in cover than you have thoroughly screwed up your job. Even if they have cover availed to them they should not be in it when the fight starts and by spending edge to go first (possibly just in general also being faster as a good street samurai should be faster than any generic mook) you can get that one shot in, which like you said could probably kill them, before they ever get a chance to move to that cover.
Why would you ever start a fight with your foes in cover? If you start a fight in that situation you have probably been ambushed and you should probably be running away/looking for an exit.
Also you just don't shoot at people you can't see.
What you do is either shoot at someone who is the open, (or at least minimal enough cover that you can see them and do not take blind fire penalties) or you hold your actions and then dex off with the guy when he tries to pop out of cover and shoot him first.
Except that if they all have cover than yeah it's grenade time, because honestly that is what grenades were meant to do flush people out of cover.
Also no shadowrunners I would ever play would only have five points of recoil comp. Anyone should be able to get at least double digits, you use a wireless tripod that can deploy as a free action for six points of recoil comp, and gas vents three for another three, Ares Alpha has two and you're at 11 already without needing taking into account strength!
Tactics do matter in Shadowrun but in my book they are best all taken care of before the first bullet leaves the barrel.
... Wow, your GM is very generous. Tactics literally cannot be all taken care of before the shooting starts.
No not a generous GM just a smart shadowrunning team' be stealthy be sneaky, be quick on the draw, do not let your foes suspect you are there till it is too late (spirits concealing also helps).
Its not like Shadowrun fights start with two groups of people just bumbling into each other in a wearhouse after all.
And do you have any thoughts on my comments on how you can shoot someone before they get the action to take cover?
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Yes. Your GM is being EXTREMELY generous if that ends the fight or near to. That wouldn't be considered a fight. Against any reasonable opposition, none of what you've suggested approaches being guaranteed. You seem to be describing a situation that goes perfectly against sub-par opposition.
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Not sure if that's the nicest GM or just a really bad one. Honestly it sounds boring as hell if your plan works perfectly 100% of the time, with no surprises, and you wipe out the opposition with barely a whimper of resistance before they can shoot back.
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Not sure if that's the nicest GM or just a really bad one. Honestly it sounds boring as hell if your plan works perfectly 100% of the time, with no surprises, and you wipe out the opposition with barely a whimper of resistance before they can shoot back.
Honestly it was round robin GMing and we were doing missions so if one of us were doing it wrong we were all doing it wrong things did ot always work out 100% of the time, but we knew how to deny our foes cover through stealth, surprise magic and hilarious amounts of firepower when called for.
If watching the daughter of our murdered fixer use our helicopters minimum to let loose with some suppressive fire that murdered the 30 guards of the guy who ordered her father's murder is wrong than frankly I do not want to be right.
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Yes. Your GM is being EXTREMELY generous if that ends the fight or near to. That wouldn't be considered a fight. Against any reasonable opposition, none of what you've suggested approaches being guaranteed. You seem to be describing a situation that goes perfectly against sub-par opposition.
We were running season two and season three missions so "sub-par" defines the opposition quite nicely to be honest.
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Yeah, that's the trick with Missions - it has to work for pretty much whoever shows up, limiting... A lot of things.
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Yeah, that's the trick with Missions - it has to work for pretty much whoever shows up, limiting... A lot of things.
For reference has Catalyst sold any product that feature missions with a bit more bite to them? I figure the seasons are all sort of watered down so that people don't pay $4 to get their characters killed off (give or take BallroomBlitz) but do you know if there are any stuff they've released that is stand alone like umm Ghost Cartel was it called that is more difficult?
Asking honestly since it will probably be a few more splat books before I could convince my group to do anything in fifth edition and we are bad enough dudes who know how to optimize /play /build fourth edition characters well enough that we could stand up to the challenge.
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Make your own runs, then. If you're bad enough dudes to know how to optimize, you're bad enough dudes to know what will wreck your shit. Throw that at yourselves.
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The Artifacts line in SRM04 (the even missions) was definitely spiced.
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Make your own runs, then. If you're bad enough dudes to know how to optimize, you're bad enough dudes to know what will wreck your shit. Throw that at yourselves.
It takes four hours to run a mission on average we can find that time once or twice a month (actually more like three times every two months on average)
Nobody in our group wants to spend the time it would take to write an entire mission, nor when we were having fun even when we were face rolling people since 4th editions broken combat system made it seem like even in a fight between two groups of roughly equal power somebody was still going to get face rolled (typically its the team whose Mage goes second and gets to watch a good portion of is team eat an edged stunball or just some poor bastard get hit with multicast stunbolts)
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Good luck hitting with your minimum -6 on that roll for Extreme range, and I would quite frankly give you Strong winds to deal with as well on a grenade traveling half a kilometer, so that's -10. So even if you went Agility 9 Heavy Weapons 6 at chargen, you're trying to get 3 hits on 5 dice.
Take Aim with Vision Magnification makes that -3 for Range, and quite frankly, saying "Strong winds" at 500m (a third of the distance snipers are capable of) just reeks of GM cheating, unless you make a point beforehand of mentioning there's a storm going on and everyone else also gets the penalty.
So all in all, you are far more likely to have a -3 than a -10, which means a Professional Rating 5 grunt with an assumed skill level 6 in Heavy Weapons has a 70.09% of nailing the shot, 19.51% of getting 3d6-2m scatter (so 8.5m on average), and 8.67% of 3d6-1m scatter (so 9.5m on average). Add in a wireless smartlink for +1 die, and those numbers become 76.59%, 15.90% and 6.36%, even without further Take Aim actions.
With Professional Rating 4 grunts and assuming skill level 5, you're less likely to get in trouble from that distance (42.94% of nailing the shot), but at 150m, Take Aim with Vision Magnification turns that -3 into a -1 from Range, so if there's no/light rain/fog/smoke, full/partial light, and no/light winds, that's 62.28% of nailing the shot, even without further Take Aim actions. And that is what I'm most concerned about: grunts being able to wipe out the party with a single not-unlucky shot.
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And that is what I'm most concerned about: grunts being able to wipe out the party with a single not-unlucky shot.
Well you can remove most uses of explosives by a combination of the law cracking down on them and at the same time being averse to using them as they destroy lives and property. (Reasons for both sides of the law not to use them in more civilized places)
That still leaves fights in the Barrens, where there are no rules. But I kind of like that, as it adds a different flavor to combat there, higher risk.
And every edition of the game has certain sniper situations, set explosions, and stun grenades being thrown a bunch by guards inside buildings. These are situations the GM just has to be sparing with, if he wants a campaign to last at all.
The biggest problem I saw with adding a grenade dodge mechanic is that then you'd have to add it to fireballs and indirect AOEs. I thought it was a good idea to add a similar mechanic as dodging suppressive fire Edge + Reaction test) until I realized how tied to grenades indirect AOE spells are in this edition.
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The problem here isn't not being able to dodge, it's not being able to flee the blast radius because of the way turns work.
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By the way, even if with an explosion you could get a dodge test to make distance, while that reduces damage of grenades, it wouldn't reduce damage against an elemental area spell unless you score enough hits to clear the spell radius altogether. So unless the area rules are significantly errata'd, a mere dodge test won't be enough.
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The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
Thank you! This is more or less exactly how I feel! I am not sure if grenades were this broken in 4th and just did not notice it because everything was broken in 4th or if they only gained the ability to have same turn detonation in 5th but either way if you use the grenade launcher which can do short bursts and with wireless grenades, that 24P -4AP does as much damage as a cruise missile did in 4th edition if memory serves and will obliterate all but the toughest of troll sand even they will have to spend edge to soak enough of it to stay standing.
yes, they were. I remember running back in business and using the ghost gator. He didnt last one phase. One granade on a cave and BAM! he was gone.
You're right, grenades are clearly unfair. We should reinvent these explosives to cause less harm to people caught in the blasts or at least be easier to avoid. It's completely ridiculous that a soldier can just toss a grenade into a building and everybody inside basically just dies or gets horribly injured. So unbalancing!
If you didn't catch the sarcasm, my point is, grenades are supposed to be ridiculously lethal, because that's just reality. You toss an explosive at somebody and that guy is basically screwed. Nerfing them or making it super easy to avoid damage is just unrealistic.
But it's also unrealistic for you to be able to just toss a grenade in a street fight and have nobody give a shit. Nobody likes being blown up, so the setting stepping in and punishing you for your lack of discretion IS the intended balancing factor.
So in conclusion: Not a bug, working as intended. Will not fix.
well good for you not fixing that one... i guess. Its a matter of personal taste for games more than anything else. Its game balance vs realism. Like electricity rules in 4th they were broken but realistic.
If you preffer realism then the granades work as intended. I preffer game balance so i just forbbid granades from the game until i can come out with a better solution.
Neither approach is bad.
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yes, they were. I remember running back in business and using the ghost gator. He didnt last one phase. One granade on a cave and BAM! he was gone.
And? It sounds like your players used a good strategy and tactic. That the opponent was killed quickly is the reward for that. Do you think they should have just charged guns blazing into the cave and potentially gotten themselves killed?
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yes, they were. I remember running back in business and using the ghost gator. He didnt last one phase. One granade on a cave and BAM! he was gone.
And? It sounds like your players used a good strategy and tactic. That the opponent was killed quickly is the reward for that. Do you think they should have just charged guns blazing into the cave and potentially gotten themselves killed?
what strategy? Shoot it with a granade launcher? BTW they were all inside the cave
What i think is that a critter who is suppose to up the difficulty (why is in the pushing the envelope section) wich is a urban legend in the setting should last more than one attack. IMO grandes in 4th are broken, realistic but broken is that your cup of tea wonderfull, but is not mine.
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Umm...I believe the 'Pushing the Envelope' is more to add extra stuff to the run for those who have more time than someone running the Mission at a convention, not necessarily to "increase the difficulty".
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Umm...I believe the 'Pushing the Envelope' is more to add extra stuff to the run for those who have more time than someone running the Mission at a convention, not necessarily to "increase the difficulty".
Pretty much this. Heck, in one (unofficial) Mission, we were able to use the 'Pushing the Envelope' bit (the politician's maid was hosting a party while he was gone) to avoid the motion sensors we would've had to deal with otherwise, essentially making things easier.
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It weird to me to see how many people use heavily or even exclusively catalyst generated missions. I think I've ran 2 prefab game sessions in my entire life.
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It weird to me to see how many people use heavily or even exclusively catalyst generated missions. I think I've ran 2 prefab game sessions in my entire life.
I have looked at some, but I really only do "off the cuff".
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I stopped running modules some time around Temple of Elemental Evil.
I do both off the cuff and home brewed modules.
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I read a lot about tactics, I read a lot about grenades. Makes me wanna gm for them because I'm someone who loves to put the time in and build something challenging.
Perhaps perhaps....
Anywho: glad to see Grenades taken realistically in SR for a change. For those of you who are screaming "Broken" lets look back to 3rd when using RAW and you could hold a live grenade in your mouth and it STILL not fully kill you. I found 4th to be closer to the money, 5th is my salvation. When a person takes a grenade even at 6-7m you're talking burst eardrums, lack of equilibrium, potential shrapnel damage, sympathetic explosions, and a concussion wave that will knock you on your ass.
Yeah, that sounds like 16P to me.
Want more dodging options? House rule it and move on.
If you throw grenades in my game, remember that the opposition doesn't like having their friends killed and police only put up with explosions in the barrens for so long. You make it seem like more of a warzone than it is? Expect a full fledged firewatch team up your ass jack. Toot sweet.
As a rule for when I'm a player, the team agrees if anyone brings HE or Frag grenades on a mission that the team didn't authorize, that character never get hired again. Sorry, but that shit is just too obvious and attracts too much attention. Now if the opposition is carrying them and you get your hands on one.....
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Want more dodging options?
Because there are none. I can be running at 80 km an hour with 30 dodge dice, I can be driving at 500 km an hour, and itīs still a mere Heavy Weapons(3) Test to instahit me with 24P.
If I'm missing any options aside from Jammers and Hackers, please let me know.
P.S. The damage is FINE. That isn't the problem here.
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Uh guys I thought this thread was about your experiences as GMs in 5th edition not just a continuation of the OMG grenades are OP thread which already exist for that very purpose. As someone who is about to start GMing with 5th ed I would enjoy some more on topic discussion in this thread and will post some once I start GMing.
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Good to hear, Gfrobbin82
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had a bit of a play with 5e so far and it seems ok. bit worried about hardcore TM's and cyberslingers but my first attempts at cyber combat went fine. i find cyber combat a bit static though, the involved parties just standing there in cyberspace slinging data spikes at each other until they go down.
meat combat is much more dynamic, running and ducking for cover, grenades, different fire modes etc
any tips on sprucing it up?