Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ricochet on <07-22-13/1431:49>
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One of my favorite small touches is the inclusion of Scratch Built Junk as the lowest level rigger control consol. It lives up to it's name with the lowest ratings across the board, but it gives a very cheap option for a "rigger hobbyist" to control up to 3 drones.
At the same time, I'm disappointed that the same option wasn't put in place for decks. This is really part of the complaint about decking being so expensive. I think that a cheap "scratch built junk" deck would fill a niche.
Although I don't think the deck should be as cheap as the RCC, getting a cheaper option just makes sense.
Scratch Built Junk
Device Rating: 1
Availability: 2R
Cost: 16,500
Attribute Array: 2 2 1 1
Programs: 1
Limitation: Not enough memory to run a virtual machine.
The price is equal to a handful of comlinks to cobble parts together for, and runs about 1/3 of the price of the cheapest store bought deck. 2/2/1/1 is a pretty big limiter for deck stats (as opposed to 4/3/2/1 on the lowest deck), and the lack of virtual machine truly only allows 1 program to run at a time.
Note: I originally was looking at 3/2/1/1 as the stats, but I'm concerned at 1/3 the price, that is too good.
It's too bad that a junk deck wasn't in core. Hopefully we get one officially sooner than later.
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nice :D maybe make it at your original 3\2\1\1 but make it so that it increases overwatch score (either immediatly even without doing anything illegal, or all illegal actions counts as double) a way to reflect its non optimized data stream on the grid. Making it an annoying fly in GODs eye.
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Here is the other approach I see as being viable for approaching Scratch Built Junk
Hacking tools for script kiddies:
Metalink - DR 1 (100 Nuyen)
Metalink Sleaze Chip (4000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Sleaze 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Attack Chip (4000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Attack 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Program Chip (6000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Allows you to hold and run 1 program on a Metalink.
(Note, since the chip only holds 1 program, it can't benefit from using virtual machine.)
Complete Metalink "Deck"
1/1/1/1 Stats
Run up to 1 program
Costs 14,100
Sony Emporer - DR 2 (700 Nuyen)
Metalink Sleaze Chip (8000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Sleaze 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Attack Chip (8000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Attack 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Program Chip (12000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Allows you to hold and run 1 program on a Metalink.
(Note, since the chip only holds 1 program, it can't benefit from using virtual machine.)
Complete Emporer "Deck"
Firewall 2, Data Processing 2, Attack 1, Sleaze 1
Run up to 1 program
Costs 28,700
Renraku Sensai - DR 3 (1000 Nuyen)
Metalink Sleaze Chip (12000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Sleaze 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Attack Chip (12000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Adds Attack 1 Attribute to Metalink
Metalink Program Chip (18000 nuyen, Availability 3R)
Allows you to hold and run 1 program on a Metalink.
(Note, since the chip only holds 1 program, it can't benefit from using virtual machine.)
Complete Sensai"Deck"
Firewall 3, Data Processing 3, Attack 1, Sleaze 1
Run up to 1 program
Costs 43,000
This could also allow "incomplete decks". For example, a Sensai with the Sleaze chip but no attack chip would be completely unable to process attack programs, but saves 12k to get something that can do some hacking.
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I think this really needs to be addressed. A device's Data Processing and Firewall are both equal to it's Device Rating, and looking at Commlinks compared to Cyberdecks, the two most affordable decks available, the Microtrónica Azteca 200 and the Hermes Chariot have Matrix Attributes that cap out at 5 with a cost of over 100K while the Transys Avalon has a Firewall of 6 for only 5K. It's easier to hack into a Hermes Chariot that costs 125K than a 5k Commlink?
I've not played a Hacker in SR4, but I seem to recall a section on custom built Commlinks. I suspect SR5 developers will put something like that in one of the upcoming sourcebooks, but considering the disparity between Matrix Attributes of Commlinks and Cyberdecks, this should have been something they put in the core book.
I mean, fragg it, I'm gona run with a Fairlight Caliban slaving my PAN, and my MIcrotronica in my pocket, which I will only boot up when I need an Attack action.
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The price of a deck is as much an in world issue as it is a balance issue. The corps hate hackers. One way to keep every street urchin from hacking is to include a price for entry. Its kinda like buying a silencer in the US, they inflate the price and make the process difficult because they don't want them readily available to the public. I do agree it is a way the devs found to tax deckers in order to keep others from being able to buy a deck and an agent to fill their role.
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Keep in mind that buying all common and hacking programs only costs 5,310¥, and that you can use them for things like +1 Firewall, +1 Data Processing, +1 Sleaze (and an extra +2 when Hacking on the Fly), and +1 Attack, and that's just the basic attribute-affecting programs.
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I'd like to point out that sure, you can be a rigger hobbyist with this thing, but on the other hand, take another look - you need more than an RCC. A rigger needs a control rig, and control rigs are pricey. On top of that, a deck has a lot of options an RCC just doesn't - some of the programs work on an RCC, some don't, RCCs aren't a thing you can reconfigure in the way that a deck is, nor are commlinks. The advantage the deck has is that you can rearrange its capabilities to suit your need - which is pretty important. The biggest thing I've seen, looking at complaints and then doing my own reading, is that this edition forces you to think tactically with your resources.
To make another note, the Control rig is pretty hard on your essence, too.
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You can back out low-quality decks based on the current pattern for lower/mid-level cyberdecks (up to Rating 3).
The pattern is there are two decks of equal rating which cost almost the same amount. Going up a rating roughly doubles the price and going down a rating roughly halves the price. The lower-quality deck has X +0/+1/+2/+3 attributes, where X is the device rating. The higher-quality deck has X +0/+2/+2/+3 attributes.
The pattern isn't going to work quite as well since you'd have to go down to device rating 0 or 0 stats which is weird. But maybe the lower-quality decks could look like this:
~24,500 for 3/2/1/1, 0 programs, DR 1
~26,500 for 3/2/2/1, 0 programs, DR 1
~12,000 for 2/1/1/1, 0 programs, DR 0
~13,000 for 2/2/1/1, 0 programs, DR 0
~6,000 for 1/1/1/0, 0 programs, DR 0
~6,500 for 1/1/1/1, 0 programs, DR 0
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Yes, it is more expensive than cheap old Scratch built junk, but here is another option: According to the rules for rigger command consoles, they can run a number of programs equal to their rating (pg. 267). It is possible to create a very cheap deck (13,500k nuyen) for use by a starting runner, within the 5th edition rules. Ending stats (ASDF) are 1136 with 2 programs (not including Virtual Machine). For a slightly more powerful deck (21,500k nuyen), you can get a 1146 with 3 programs (not including Virtual Machine).
You need to buy a RCC, a high end comlink, and a number of Programs. You need to slave the RCC to the Commlink (ups the firewall to the Commlink’s rating) and run the programs (Decryption [+1 Attack] and Stealth [+1 Sleaze]) to get the Attack and Sleaze ratings.
Base machine: 1136 w/2 Programs runnable for 13,500
8,000 - Radio Shack Remote Controller (0033 w/2 Programs runnable)
5,000 – Transys Avalon Commlink (0066) [as the Master Device]
0,250 - Decryption [+1 Attack]
0,250 - Stealth [+1 Sleaze]
Slightly Better: 1146 w/3 Programs runnable for 21,500
16,000 – Essy Motors Drone Master (0044 w/3 Programs runnable)
05,000 – Transys Avalon Commlink (0066) [as the Master Device]
00,250 - Decryption [+1 Attack]
00,250 - Stealth [+1 Sleaze]
I have used the first one in an actual run (not matrix heavy). It works fine for Matrix overwatch (if you have at least 12 dice for Matrix Perception, guarantee 3 hits to see hidden icons.) It should work fine for Matrix Defense. You can also play distraction – add an Exploit program, and you can have a limit of 3 for Hacking on the Fly to get marks.
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I mean, fragg it, I'm gona run with a Fairlight Caliban slaving my PAN, and my MIcrotronica in my pocket, which I will only boot up when I need an Attack action.
Why not slave your cyberdeck to your (or someones) comlink?
When attacked, your deck can use the comlinks greater attributes, and still provide you an attack option.
You can only use one persona at a time, but that's certainly going to be your 'deck.
I think that most people up till now have been taking about how to slave all their runner's electronics to the hacker's deck, so the hacker could provide 'overwatch' of some sort. But it seems to me it works better to slave everything to a really good comlink with high Firewall and such.
If the hacker is the *owner* of both the comlink and the deck, then the hacker gets marks when someone fails to sleaze anything slaved to the comlink (that he owns), (including his deck), and he can then start retaliating.
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That... is pretty clever, actually. I can't think of any reason not to do that. Someone, please find a reason for me why slaving my RCC to my commlink isn't going to work?
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I mean, fragg it, I'm gona run with a Fairlight Caliban slaving my PAN, and my MIcrotronica in my pocket, which I will only boot up when I need an Attack action.
Why not slave your cyberdeck to your (or someones) comlink?
When attacked, your deck can use the comlinks greater attributes, and still provide you an attack option.
You can only use one persona at a time, but that's certainly going to be your 'deck.
I think that most people up till now have been taking about how to slave all their runner's electronics to the hacker's deck, so the hacker could provide 'overwatch' of some sort. But it seems to me it works better to slave everything to a really good comlink with high Firewall and such.
If the hacker is the *owner* of both the comlink and the deck, then the hacker gets marks when someone fails to sleaze anything slaved to the comlink (that he owns), (including his deck), and he can then start retaliating.
I'm happy to see I'm not the only one thinking this would work. I wondered if I was misunderstanding the rules regarding slaved devices. My decker is planning to buy a Renraku Tsurugi cyberdeck with 6553 matrix attributes. This allows me to set my Firewall to 6, but then leaves the rest at less than optimal. By buying a Transys Avalon Rating 6 commlink and slaving my deck to it I never have to worry about assigning my deck's 6 attribute to the firewall. For 5,000¥ the deck's Firewall becomes a dump stat and I can juggle a 6 and a pair of 5s between the other three matrix attributes.
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That... is pretty clever, actually. I can't think of any reason not to do that. Someone, please find a reason for me why slaving my RCC to my commlink isn't going to work?
It works.
Slaving stuff to a Deck has the advantage of the Deck having a Sleaze attribute to resist matrix perception while running silent and stuff, though.
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With the recent revelation (supported by Aaron) that comlinks + edge can be used to hack, we now know how you can learn to hack without a deck. You can't learn programs (since comlinks can't run cyber programs), but it looks like you can do attack and sleaze actions, using edge to break the limit (and decks pretty much were there to set limits.)
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Don't forget that many deckers will have learned hacking during the old matrix and are simply learning to adapt to the new matrix now.
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Or not learned. I suspect that adapting to the new grid is weeding out a lot of script kitties who lived on rote knowledge of systems and shiny programs. In this edition the deceker has to be on the ball instead of just hitting go.
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Well, it is good to have it confirmed that there are alternatives to Priority A Nuyen deckers.
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Well, it is good to have it confirmed that there are alternatives to Priority A Nuyen deckers.
There already was. I've been advocating low resource deckers for awhile as the cyberdeck only sets limits and a few peripheral things (damage codes etc) and programs are less vital. At priority C you can get a Chariot, and I'd back a Skill/Att A/B (in whatever order) decker with a Chariot over a lower skill/att decker with a Sony.
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I agree.
I have a combat Decker with Resources C who managed to also sneak in some Bone Lacing and an Obvious Cyber Arm with some enhancements. I would rather start with higher Attributes and Skills, as getting a better Cyberdeck will be easier than raising Attributes.
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Hmmm. I may have to rethink my build. I'm looking for a decker who isn't completely useless in combat but I'm currently building with A) Resources B) Attributes C) Skills.
Do any of you promoting less decked-out deckers have a link or two to what your builds look like?
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I am currently running a A) Stats B) Skills C) Magic [Adept] D) Resources hacker specialized in Hardware. It has proven to be an interesting build. All of my adept stuff is going towards my hacking skills, and he uses the deck that I posted earlier in the thread. Waiting on an opportunity to actually play him in a mission and hopefully swipe a real deck. Well, a better one that is not an RCC.
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Ok, but if you're running a 1146 riggerdeck you need to use edge anytime you want be able to use more than one net success. Aren't you going to be burning through edge pretty quickly on a Matrix heavy run? I mean Hacking on the Fly and cracking a couple files is gonna be 3 Edge if you are looking to keep more than one success.
It's not going to be as hard to get by with as hacking with a 0066 commlink where EVERY Attack or Sleaze action is going to need to use edge, but I still think you could burn through edge pretty quick.
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Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.
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A -deck- can, but an RCC? I don't believe it can.
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Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.
Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.
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Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.
Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.
That is entirely impossible: page 269 lists the cyberprograms that RCCs can run, and Sleaze- and Attack-increasing programs aren't on that list.
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Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.
Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.
That is entirely impossible: page 269 lists the cyberprograms that RCCs can run, and Sleaze- and Attack-increasing programs aren't on that list.
Well he calls out Decryption and Stealth, but as you mention the list on pg 269 doesn't include those. Of course the list also says it is a list of "handy ones" for a rigger, not the only ones. It also refers the reader to the Programs section for more information which could imply all programs are allowed.
RIGGER CYBERPROGRAMS
Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use. Programs purchased for use on an RCC cannot be used in a cyberdeck and vice versa. As with decks, RCCs cannot run more than one type of program of the same type, even if you rename it. Here’s a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger and their basic function. See the Programs section of the Matrix chapter (p. 243) for more detail.
Encryption: +1 Firewall
Signal Scrub: Rating 2 noise reduction
Toolbox: + 1 Data Processing
Virtual Machine: 2 extra program slots; take 1 extra box of unresisted Matrix damage when attacked
Armor: +2 dice pool modifier to resist Matrix damage
Biofeedback Filter: +2 dice pool modifier to resist biofeedback damage
Guard: Reduce extra damage from marks by 1 DV per mark
Shell: +1 dice pool modifier against Matrix and biofeedback damage, cumulative with other programs
Sneak: +2 dice pool modifier to defend against Trace User actions
Wrapper: Allows you to defy Matrix iconography rules
So if that is a restrictive list of programs for an RCC, then whether you are using a commlink or an RCC, you would have to burn edge to have any chance of getting a success. If all programs are allowed on an RCC then you still can't swap stats and have to burn edge regularly, but its better than a commlink.
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It only says "Hey, here's a list of programs are useful on an RCC." It doesn't say "These are the only programs you may use!"
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I've come around the last week on edge decking, and I kind of like the RCC and comlink solutions for cheaper alternatives for decks. Getting a real deck is for the big timers.
My assessment:
1) Yes that one limit would really hurt, making edge very important.
2) When I suggested that, I wasn't even thinking of the possibility of a standard comlink having the ability to run sleaze or attack actions, since it doesn't have the software/hardware to do this. My first opinion called it "ridiculous", but to be honest, I've come around on this, because I really think that allowing that solves the gap now, and adds to the game. I'll be allowing that.
Note: By the way, I went to the big man himself yesterday to get his opinion on edge decking with a comlink. He said the system definitely was not designed to allow it, but that is was kind of a cool if unintended idea. That was good enough for me, and I'll be allowing it in our group when I take over GM duties next week.
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I agree that it definitely adds to the storytelling ability to have a decker's gear evolve with his skills; starting with a commlink, evolving to a second hand RCC he comes across, into a low end deck and then on to bigger things. Being new to Shadowrun I'm just not as clear on how viable it is gameplay/mechanics wise. I'm used to RPGs with a lot of min/maxing so the idea of not starting with a high end deck seems like it could cause you and your team unnecessary issues.
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I agree that it definitely adds to the storytelling ability to have a decker's gear evolve with his skills; starting with a commlink, evolving to a second hand RCC he comes across, into a low end deck and then on to bigger things. Being new to Shadowrun I'm just not as clear on how viable it is gameplay/mechanics wise. I'm used to RPGs with a lot of min/maxing so the idea of not starting with a high end deck seems like it could cause you and your team unnecessary issues.
And it will. If any kind of Cybercombat or whatever breaks out, your Edge is going to be gone in a second. But it's a good budget alternative for non-dedicated deckers, imo.
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It only says "Hey, here's a list of programs are useful on an RCC." It doesn't say "These are the only programs you may use!"
True, although it's implied by "Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use" - of course, I guess that can be interpreted multiple ways.
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It only says "Hey, here's a list of programs are useful on an RCC." It doesn't say "These are the only programs you may use!"
True, although it's implied by "Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use" - of course, I guess that can be interpreted multiple ways.
Yeah, he's not a Rigger, but a Decker using a fourth-rate RCC out of lack of funds :p
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It only says "Hey, here's a list of programs are useful on an RCC." It doesn't say "These are the only programs you may use!"
True, although it's implied by "Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use" - of course, I guess that can be interpreted multiple ways.
Yeah, he's not a Rigger, but a Decker using a fourth-rate RCC out of lack of funds :p
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Anyway, the Rigger part's not the one that's open to interpretation - you use an RCC, you're officially a member of the Rigger club, so "Riggers" there means "someone using an RCC" - but the "can utilize a number of cyberprograms" bit can either be taken to mean "these are the programs you can run on RCCs" or "these are the programs that are useful on RCCs". Might want to ask in the FAQ or something.
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Really though, he's getting something barely (if at all) above a Rating 6 Commlink in functionality, at over triple the cost. Is there any reason to ban it if the RAW doesn't do so outright?
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If RAW doesn't ban him from doing so (and unless we get a more official opinion, it's a matter of interpretation as to whether it does or does not), then yes, there's definitely a pretty big reason why the GM might want to forbid it, and that is the Exploit cyberprogram, which gives +2 to Sleaze when attempting a Hack on the Fly. If you also get Stealth and Edit, and drop Decryption, this gives you 0/1(3)/4(6)/6 - enough to hack small fries and steal their files without using Edge - for 21,580¥, which is less than half what the cheapest Cyberdeck costs you, while also having extra functionalities cyberdecks aren't capable of (namely the whole "make drones kill anyone that tries to go after you" thing). For an extra 330¥ you can add Virtual Machine and Fork, doubling the speed at which you can steal files.
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Plus, if you have 3 marks on a persona or deuce, you can reboot the device, possibly causing dumpshock. Plus, it's a data processing action, so no alert or consequence if it fails. If it success on a persona, it can cause dumpshock. 6 damage only resisted with will.
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Plus, if you have 3 marks on a persona or deuce, you can reboot the device, possibly causing dumpshock. Plus, it's a data processing action, so no alert or consequence if it fails. If it success on a persona, it can cause dumpshock. 6 damage only resisted with will.
Will and Firewall.