Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: ScooterinAB on <07-24-13/1314:08>
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I was running a character creation session last night, and noticed the Gas grenade for the first time. For those who also haven't noticed it, you can put any toxin into the grenade and weaponize it. So I looked over the toxins to see what would make a fun grenade.
Pepper Punch is basically super pepper spray. It's incredibly cheap, very powerful, and easy to come in contact with (being almost impossible to protect against). Once afflicted, it is almost impossible to resist against the Power 11 (each hit to get to resist reduces the Power) and victims are incredibly likely to drop to the ground in burning agony. You are likely to be incapacitated for at least 3 turns by the grenade, if not knocked right out because of the large amount of stun damage. Also, once afflicted, all wound modifiers count as double for the next 10 minutes. Even if you can resist the effects, you still take some stun damage and suffer huge penalties.
Worse, because Pepper Punch is so cheap (5 nuyen per dose), you can add additional doses, forcing additional resistance tests every turn and increasing the potency of the grenade.
For a scant 45 nuyen, you can end a large number of combatants. Rather than just stunning your opponent, you are causing so many negative effects that they are going to be out of combat inside a turn. Even the toughest troll may not be able to resist, and would be easily dispatched afterwards.
The only complication I've seen is how protective gear works. Since the toxin is Contact and Inhalation, I'm not sure how effective a respirator or gas mask would be. Is it an all or nothing defense (requiring a chemical seal), or would a respirator still help?
Regardless, this is a brutally efficient weapon for a pretty low price.
The runner up is the Kamikaze grenade, strictly for the shear amount of havoc that it can cause by dropping it at your team's feet.
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Worse, because Pepper Punch is so cheap (5 nuyen per dose), you can add additional doses, forcing additional resistance tests every turn and increasing the potency of the grenade.
I don't think you can add multiple doses on the same grenade.
But yeah pepper punch gas grenades are quite awesome, especially as their 100% legal so you can just carry them with you where ever(their part of my main builds everyday carry)
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Can I buy pepperpunch in a can to use like regular mace, or can I only put it in a grenade?
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The only complication I've seen is how protective gear works. Since the toxin is Contact and Inhalation, I'm not sure how effective a respirator or gas mask would be. Is it an all or nothing defense (requiring a chemical seal), or would a respirator still help?
The Toxin and Drug Protection Table (SR5 408) shows you what works. Chemical protection or seal and a toxin extractor are effective. Or be a dwarf.
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Can I buy pepperpunch in a can to use like regular mace, or can I only put it in a grenade?
Chem patch (SR5 451) is probably the closest thing. At 200 nuyen, it is a more expensive option to a grenade for a single use, but I would assume it automatically bypasses chemical protect (or chemical seal, if you can find a break through). A GM could extract a single use spray from those rules (give it a maximum range of 1 to 3 meters and use Exotic Ranged Weapon, for example).
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Presumably just buying Pepper Punch itself comes in some kind of canister. Jazz comes with an inhaler, so I don't see why Pepper Punch couldn't come with a spray can.
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Presumably just buying Pepper Punch itself comes in some kind of canister. Jazz comes with an inhaler, so I don't see why Pepper Punch couldn't come with a spray can.
I have to agree, strike my over complicate statements above, heh. A chem patch would probably just change the vector to contact (which is was already), but bypass any intervening defenses.
Given that the 5 nuyen cost already gives you a spray can, it is just up the GM to decide what kind of attack roll and range it uses (and then apply the horrible horrible results of a critical glitch).
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Note the one combat turn onset time actually means it's effects occur at the end of the the next combat turn. So the target gets the current turn, and the next turn, to do what he can to mitigate it's effects (use an anitdote patch) or try to still kill you. It's still great but there is that delay. Also a good reason to put chem protection on your armour! That plus an antidote patch would work pretty well. I suspect respirator probably doesnt help since it is also contact vector.
It's a strong option but given the delay i think it's not tooooo OP. Not a discreet weapon either.
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I suspect respirator probably doesnt help since it is also contact vector.
That's the part I'm not clear about. Would someone need both inhalation and contact protection in order to get any protection? Does the victim only get to use the lower of the two protections? Or do they get a partial bonus if they have one or another?
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well if Pepper Punch works anything like pepper spray today, its contact with the mouth, nose and eyes that cause the pain. Any breathing mask that covers the entire face should also prevent the contact vector.
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I suspect respirator probably doesnt help since it is also contact vector.
That's the part I'm not clear about. Would someone need both inhalation and contact protection in order to get any protection? Does the victim only get to use the lower of the two protections? Or do they get a partial bonus if they have one or another?
i would think a reasonable house rule might be you get half the respirator bonus, since part of the attack is inhalation, part contact elsewhere. i dont know if the rules say anything. Ryo's idea would also be a good houserule probably. I think it might be an individual table thing. Given the attack is quite powerful i would tend to err on the side of allowing one form of protection to help in some way against multiple vector attacks.
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i would think a reasonable house rule might be you get half the respirator bonus, since part of the attack is inhalation, part contact elsewhere. i dont know if the rules say anything. Ryo's idea would also be a good houserule probably. I think it might be an individual table thing. Given the attack is quite powerful i would tend to err on the side of allowing one form of protection to help in some way against multiple vector attacks.
If directly spraying it from the can, I would agree, but if we are talking about an area effect grenade, then pepper is getting everywhere. Perhaps a defense bonus for initial contact/attack, but not against the actual effects of the toxin? Not how the actual mechanic works, just thinking aloud.
I just realized the reason for wireless capabilities for slap patches. Stick the patch, wirelessly activate and administer the antidote patch you need (free action). Re-use patch if not activated. Saves you from re-applying antidote every 20 minutes, just in case. The trauma patch has wireless, why not the rest of them? Heh.
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well if Pepper Punch works anything like pepper spray today, its contact with the mouth, nose and eyes that cause the pain. Any breathing mask that covers the entire face should also prevent the contact vector.
From the description, "Someone dosed with pepper punch feels an intense burning on any affected skin; this affect is even more pronounced if it gets in the eyes, nose, or mouth..." (SR5 410). It is not pepper spray as we know it, it is a chemical that causes burning on contact, plus nasty orifice pain. No Contact AND Inhalation protection, no bonus to the Toxin Resistance Test.
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I was running a character creation session last night, and noticed the Gas grenade for the first time. For those who also haven't noticed it, you can put any toxin into the grenade and weaponize it. So I looked over the toxins to see what would make a fun grenade.
Pepper Punch is basically super pepper spray. It's incredibly cheap, very powerful, and easy to come in contact with (being almost impossible to protect against). Once afflicted, it is almost impossible to resist against the Power 11 (each hit to get to resist reduces the Power) and victims are incredibly likely to drop to the ground in burning agony. You are likely to be incapacitated for at least 3 turns by the grenade, if not knocked right out because of the large amount of stun damage. Also, once afflicted, all wound modifiers count as double for the next 10 minutes. Even if you can resist the effects, you still take some stun damage and suffer huge penalties.
Worse, because Pepper Punch is so cheap (5 nuyen per dose), you can add additional doses, forcing additional resistance tests every turn and increasing the potency of the grenade.
For a scant 45 nuyen, you can end a large number of combatants. Rather than just stunning your opponent, you are causing so many negative effects that they are going to be out of combat inside a turn. Even the toughest troll may not be able to resist, and would be easily dispatched afterwards.
The only complication I've seen is how protective gear works. Since the toxin is Contact and Inhalation, I'm not sure how effective a respirator or gas mask would be. Is it an all or nothing defense (requiring a chemical seal), or would a respirator still help?
Regardless, this is a brutally efficient weapon for a pretty low price.
The runner up is the Kamikaze grenade, strictly for the shear amount of havoc that it can cause by dropping it at your team's feet.
I know this is an old thread but I have read a few times people listing Pepper Punch as power 11 (When SR4a lists it as power 7) and Narcojet as power 15 (again SR4a lists as power 10), was this changed somewhere along the way? Which is the correct number?
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I know this is an old thread but I have read a few times people listing Pepper Punch as power 11 (When SR4a lists it as power 7) and Narcojet as power 15 (again SR4a lists as power 10), was this changed somewhere along the way? Which is the correct number?
I'm 99% certain that this is for SR5. Power, in general for all toxins, went up. Also, 2013 ... this was a seriously long time ago.
Your numbers are correct for SR4A.
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That's the part I'm not clear about. Would someone need both inhalation and contact protection in order to get any protection?
There's no rules for partial bonuses, and the question I recently find myself asking when this topic comes up - how would you treat drugs with multiple vectors? Deepweed has an obvious modern day equivalent, and while I'm not well versed on the methods of recreational use, I don't think you can smoke and eat a single dose at the same time.
There are numerous delivery methods for drugs and toxins. To limit potential delivery to the available vectors, and operating vector to the delivery in use, may not always make sense - but it's a lot lighter on house rules.
*gah ... thread necromancy strikes again!*
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It is not pepper spray as we know it, it is a chemical that causes burning on contact, plus nasty orifice pain.
If you don't think Real Life pepper spray burns your skin on contact then can I please spray you with some ;)
The description is quite accurate for today's Pepper Sprays.
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Come on people. This thread got necro'd from 2013. No need to respond to any of the original people; I doubt that most of them are active.
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ROFL it is rather humorous to watch though.
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But but some of the new questions being raised are somewhat retentive...
I think I'm now collecting a nice old collection of anti-group nades it pepper them with, being hugely annoying, but not outright fatal.
Gas Grenades w/ Pepper Punch
Paint Grenades w/ Hold Fast Adhesive Spray
Paint Grenades w/ Ultra-Glide Industrial Lubricant
I'm especially looking forward to my players chasing after someone who drops a few of the last to get away. ;D
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I could have sworn that we had covered this recently... can't seem to find it though.
Anyway:
Paint Grenades w/ Narcoject + DMSO
Paint Grenades w/ Dread + DMSO
Flashbangs
Also, unless your players have started the whole nuclear war thing, I wouldn't recommend loading your enemies with a bunch of 'nades. They quickly break the game and neutralize people. Players overusing 'nades can quite literally go through 100s of enemies without taking a scratch. It's the same way with enemies and 'nades.
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There's no rules for partial bonuses, and the question I recently find myself asking when this topic comes up - how would you treat drugs with multiple vectors? Deepweed has an obvious modern day equivalent, and while I'm not well versed on the methods of recreational use, I don't think you can smoke and eat a single dose at the same time.
There are numerous delivery methods for drugs and toxins. To limit potential delivery to the available vectors, and operating vector to the delivery in use, may not always make sense - but it's a lot lighter on house rules.
*gah ... thread necromancy strikes again!*
Our table has a rule that if you breathe in a contact vector toxin, you are affected, even if there is no mention of inhalation.
Also, just an idea... Can I pack two different substances into gas grenade? Say, Neurostun and IR smoke?
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Our table has a rule that if you breathe in a contact vector toxin, you are affected, even if there is no mention of inhalation.
Well, yeah. Table rules are table rules. I'd hold off on that until the character is snorting the substance through a hollow credstick.
Also, just an idea... Can I pack two different substances into gas grenade? Say, Neurostun and IR smoke?
Whether anyone leans either way, I think that one comes down to another table rule.
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Also, just an idea... Can I pack two different substances into gas grenade? Say, Neurostun and IR smoke?
Not by RAW. If you want to houserule it, sure.
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I'd just hit them with 2 different grenades, after all, its not going to affect till end of the round anyway.
Pepper Punch + CS Gas is going mess up everyone in the area when they go off together.
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With how high armour values can go compared to weapon damage I usually give my medium and light TRT`s CS gas Pepper punch and sometimes barrier foam grenades. Though depending on the area and security in question, narcoject darts and neurostun grenades will show up.
This was brought up a while ago but if you need crowd control, DMSO and horse laxitive, vector of your choice.
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This was brought up a while ago but if you need crowd control, DMSO and horse laxitive, vector of your choice.
Next-Gen in laxative pranks.