Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: GloriousRuse on <08-01-13/1826:20>
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It is big and beautiful to see that the damage codes on grenades are now scary again. A frag grenade can and will mess up your world, which is excellent. Even if it converts to stun, the reaminign soak is usually big and bad enough to put people into -3 modifiers or straight knock out and some into P. hooray!
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Actually, more important than "grenades are threatening damage-wise again" is the matter of "they turned grenades into things that no longer need opposed tests, barely scatter, and can be fired and detonated before you get a chance to run out of the blast radius, unless you dedicate your hacker to trying to find a single wireless grenade within a 500 meter radius that might not even exist, for the sole purpose of making it explode before it's fired at you". So yeah. :-\
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If people are at the point of using grenades on you, the stay in a DocWagon fortified hospital will probably do you wonders for lifespan.
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After you pull the pin from Mr. Grenade, he is no longer your friend. ;D
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Mr. Grenade is just a bit touchy about what you do with his pin, but really, think about the anatomical equivalent of what you just yanked off.
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Touchy nothing, Mr. White Phosphorous Grenade is rather 'hot tempered'. :P
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Or maybe you're just getting him all hot and bothered.
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Grenades damages are nice. The way a short burst then goes to double the damage is really scary. Lack of written dodge rules and Bull stating there is no dodging them, period, is scary as hell. Especially with activating Wireless grenades just before you use them and them exploding in your own Action Phase.
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Yay! an unarmoured civilian in the middle of a field is finally at risk from grenades again! :)
Seriously, grenades are now pretty dang badass. I'm going to declare them 'escalation' for 5th edition, rather than '[dull monotone] oh look a grenade. That might frizz up my hair a little. [/dull monotone]'
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When you face 32P/+3 damage that only requires 3 hits unopposed on a grenade launcher test, it definitely spells out escalation. ^_^
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32P? Where is that coming from?
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32P? Where is that coming from?
It comes from firing a semiautomatic burst from an MGL-12 semiautomatic grenade launcher. Since it's a burst, you only make one attack roll, which means all three grenades hit the same location. You get the full damage of the first, plus half damage for the 2nd and half damage for the 3rd. It's not cheap, at 300Y per Complex Action, but it will get results. That result will be a bunch of dead people, or a bunch of unconscious people if you use flashbangs.
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Well, excepting PCs who can burn Edge to live, is there anyone who thinks that you shouldn't die if you're point blank for three grenades at the same time?
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32P? Where is that coming from?
It comes from firing a semiautomatic burst from an MGL-12 semiautomatic grenade launcher. Since it's a burst, you only make one attack roll, which means all three grenades hit the same location. You get the full damage of the first, plus half damage for the 2nd and half damage for the 3rd. It's not cheap, at 300Y per Complex Action, but it will get results. That result will be a bunch of dead people, or a bunch of unconscious people if you use flashbangs.
Christ. Good thing my GM doesn't use these boards, or the next dragonslayer I go up against might try that. Thankfully, if he did, I'd have a chance of getting away.
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Your chance of getting away is pretty much burning a point of edge to avoid being incinerated. You don't get any sort of defense test, and impact detonated grenades go off immediately. Combine that with only needing to hit a threshold of 3 on a normal Agility+Heavy Weapons test to avoid any scatter and you're in a world of hurt.
I'm seeing why Missions S5 is in Chicago, since the MGL may become the primary weapon of choice and the former CZ is one of the few places where no one is going to care if you're spraying explosives everywhere.
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My Gm, and myself when I GM, don't put our players in no win situations.
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"And then a random corporate security goon with a grenade launcher kills all of you" does make for a rather lame end to a story.
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Well, excepting PCs who can burn Edge to live, is there anyone who thinks that you shouldn't die if you're point blank for three grenades at the same time?
The problem lies in not granting the targets any chance to get out of point-blank range, and making it ridiculously easy to land those three grenades in the same spot.
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Note: impact detonated grenades use normal Ranged Combat tests. p182 under Motion Sensor.
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Good point. That brings up an even more hilarious situation, since it means someone unaware that you're starting to shell them is actually easier to hit than the 1 meter diameter circle that they are standing in.
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32P? Where is that coming from?
It comes from firing a semiautomatic burst from an MGL-12 semiautomatic grenade launcher. Since it's a burst, you only make one attack roll, which means all three grenades hit the same location. You get the full damage of the first, plus half damage for the 2nd and half damage for the 3rd. It's not cheap, at 300Y per Complex Action, but it will get results. That result will be a bunch of dead people, or a bunch of unconscious people if you use flashbangs.
Maybe I'm just thinking with the rules a bit strictly, but isn't a semi auto burst just going to cause the defense modifier of the target to suffer a -2 penalty?
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It would for bullets. These are explosions with overlapping blasts.
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Semi auto burst grenades work remarkably well against Barrens gang roadblocks. And the MGL is obtainable at chargen! Even for Missions!
:)
On a related note, has anyone found where you use the Sensor rating on Missiles? The rules for firing rockets and missiles don't seem to mention Sensor assisted firing.
-k
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Aside from p184 Active Targetting, which mentions breaking a sensor lock, I can't find a thing. Likely something you want to submit to the FAQ.
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There are rules for using sensors for vehicle mounted weapons, give those a try.
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Yeah, got that answer from the FAQ thread, just roll a Sensor test from that section and ignore the bits that mention vehicles.
There should probably an errata in the Missile combat section adding a comment about the Sensor test though. "Missiles may take advantage of Sensor Assisted Targeting (pg184), using their Sensor Rating."
-k
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Actually, for the sake of being pedantic, lets explore what KommissarK is saying. My general philosophy is that the rules do what they say they do, and nothing more/less. Why should grenades deal +damage when being hit with three bullets doesn't deal more damage? The effects of semi-automatic burst is "-2 Defense." Why should it do more?
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That is a good point. Both positions are reasonable. -2 defense only, or also add the effects of 1x + 0.5x + 0.5x grenade DVs? I do think it could stand some clarification. Perhaps add it to the FAQ thread?
-k
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p. 183 "multiple simultaneous blasts" kicks in when using semi-automatic bursts with grenade launchers. It looks like this rule was specifically made for the SAB, because the explosions have to occur on the same initiative score. Different caracters throwing multiple grenades will never have to use the simultaneous blasts rule.
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p. 183 "multiple simultaneous blasts" kicks in when using semi-automatic bursts with grenade launchers. It looks like this rule was specifically made for the SAB, because the explosions have to occur on the same initiative score. Different caracters throwing multiple grenades will never(<1% of cases) have to use the simultaneous blasts rule.
Actually, with triggering their detonation wirelessly, you can pre-throw several grenades and then trigger them to detonate. In a recent run, I placed 3 flash bangs near an entrance. Me and them team extracted our target via stealth and Improved Invisibility. Once we cleared the blast radius, I detonated the flash bangs on the group that came to investigate the commotion within the prison chamber. The 'boss' and five of his goons ended up having a really bad day while we continued making our escape through the complex.
Also, imagine a scenario where you have some heavy opposition against a secured door. You and your team also have full cover. You throw over toward their position at a penalty, but even if you screw it, scatter rules aren't that bad, especially with hand tossed ordinance. By the time you have your second or third grenade over (likely 2nd ini pass), you can detonate them all, assuming they haven't fallen back through the door or started lobbing grenades back. This is completely separate from anything else your team does (suppressive fire, conjuring a f6 spirit to keep'em occupied, then having it dematerialize before you detonate, etc.)
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You can trigger multiple grenades with only one action?
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Actually, that would work pretty well. Multiple suppressive fires at the start, forcing them to go prone or take full cover. If they risk popping up, pretty darn good chance of taking some led. While doing that, you're grenade lobbing, putting them into a no win scenario. 2-3x Suppressive for in the opening IP followed by a grenade = bad day
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Actually, I would say the simultanious explosions rules are for setting explosives and having them all detonate simultaneously.
Is there an argument for Grenades adding damage that can not also be applied to being hit by three bullets?
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The rules for simultaneous blasts are in the "grenade launches, rockets, missiles" section...
Explosives have a different ruleset...circular explosions etc.
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The rules for being hit by a bullet state that it deals the weapon's DV. Why does one apply and the other does not?
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Grenade launchers technically don't have a DV. They aren't like other weapons...that's why they got an own section in the first place.
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And?
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There is just no rule for an increased DV when you hit with multiple bullets. The firing mode has nothing to do with the DV...it only influences use of ammunition and defensive rolls.
Firing three bullets at the target doesn't trigger any special rule (because there is none). You just apply the weapons DV (maybe modified by ammunition).
Firing three grenades triggers a special case rule for grenades - the multiple simultaneous blasts.
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You're right, firing mode has nothing to do with the DV. It only influences the use of ammunition and defensive rolls. The ammunition being Grenades has no bearing on this. To reverse your logic again, since there are no special rules for 3 bullets hitting someone you'd default to the normal rules, which are three different DVs. This is what you do when three different people shoot three bullets at someone, after all. Now, even with this rather... literal interpretation of the rules, Multiple Attacks would let you catch multiple people in simultaneous explosions as long as they are near each other. But then you are splitting your dicepool, have a lot of scatter, etc. At least hypothetically. -shrugs-
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To reverse your logic again, since there are no special rules for 3 bullets hitting someone you'd default to the normal rules, which are three different DVs. This is what you do when three different people shoot three bullets at someone, after all.
There are no special rules in 5e for hitting someone with 3 bullets because that's not what happens - you fire the bullets in such a way that your target is more likely to get hit by 1 of them. 4e had the narrow burst, which caused the extra bullets to also sort-of hit the target, giving +1 to DV per extra bullet, but 5e doesn't anymore. And given that grenades have a blast radius of 8 or 18 meters, applying the bullet burst rules to grenades is pretty weird.
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Pretty weird, but more balanced. I'm okay with that, weird stuff happens all the time in the rules. They are an approximation, not reality. Hell, there's nothing to imply that the extra grenades even blow up. Its entirely possible that they're consumed after the first one explodes without themselves exploding.
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Depends on the grenade... Mostly unlikely as hell, but possible, in a critical glitch kind of way. I know this got solved in 4e by War!, so while I don't know the wording in 5e book, here's the bit from 4e...
Occasionally, a gamemaster will have more than one grenade or other explosive simultaneously affecting a single target. In these cases, treat the damage as a single blast with a Damage Values equal to the sum of the highest Damage Value of one explosion plus half the DV of the other explosions. Each explosion’s DV should be modified for the distance of each explosion, as if the target was affected by the Blast in a Confined Space rules (p. 156, SR4A). The combination of overlapping blasts and confined quarters is known as the “puréed salsa effect.”
Dunno. Even the bits I've seen here, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. Multiple grenades work as multiple explosions, unless you're just scattering them all over the place, but at a single target or a group, it's going to be very very painful for them.
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I'm not saying anyone on the other side is being at all unreasonable. I'm saying there are two interpretations of the rules. One of them is more balanced, if pedantic. One of them is more intuitive, but unbalanced. Give those two choices, we should choose the former.
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As I said, there's enough ambiguity that a FAQ entry probably needs doing. So I did.
-k
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RAW seems to be for the unbalanced one. After all, that -2 from the burst merely would determine whether or not a grenade hits you on the chest or a scatter roll is needed. But Wireless Grenades are aimed at the ground, no defense applies. And they do not explode in the same Action as they are fired. They explode when commanded to. At which point you clearly have 3 simultaneous explosions that hurt like hell, not 3 projectiles fired at you.
However, I consider Wireless Grenades as they are now potentially abusable, and we need clarification on whether you can trigger multiple Grenades in 1 go. By the way, if you can't, what stops you from letting your teammates command the grenades with their Free Actions and let them explode all at once?
Also, if they are in fact this overpowered when it comes to bursts, they clearly need a bit of changing up. It's easy to houserule they got a 1-Action-Phase minimum delay due to the charging taking time.
By the way, if someone put spells on the grenades and fired them at me, clearly the -2 applies.
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With the new movement system your house rule could make grenades pretty useless....there has to be another way. Grenades that don't explode in the turn they were shot are easy to avoid. Grenades that can explode in the same turn on the other hand are most likely a 100% hit...but this is a problem with the missing opposing test. There needs to be done a lot of proper explanations.
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It'd still require them to run out of cover and make a decent bit of distance. Try combining grenades and suppressive fire, that'd be a nice approach. ^_^ They'd also not be able to return to any zone with grenades unless they hack them, because otherwise you could just trigger them with a Free Action the second they try to get past them. Can you imagine a hacking battle purely over trying to clear a corridor filled with grenades? Sounds awesome to me. ^_^
But yeah, it's not an optimal houserule, it's what I'd suggest as temporal fix until grenades are made deadly but not an auto-killer.
As it is now, I might be better off assassinating someone with a grenade launcher than with a sniper rifle. =P
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You are all talking about attacking with grenades, how much they can scatter if you don't get 3 success and how much damage it can stack up if you use multiple grenades (or confined space).
But... I have not seen much talk about defending against explosives
(described on p.190 and the table on p.189).
Defense modifiers table p.189
situation dice pool modifiers
================================ ===================
<<...cut...>>
Defender running +2
Defender/Target has Good Cover +4
Defender/Target has Partial Cover +2
Targeted by area-effect attack –2
Targeted by an Area-Effect Attack p.190
Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the
movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend
against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles
with a blast or area effect.
From this written rule on how to defend against explosives it is very obvious that the defender do get to roll dice to doge an explosion... There is no indication that the defensive roll should be using anything else than a the normal Reaction + Intuition [+Willpower if Full Defense] Roll so this is what we have to assume is true for this roll as well.
1) Do rules contradict each other
2) Did we read something wrong
3) Are we missing some important rule
If 1) - then we need clarification.
- Is the rule for explosions correct and the rule about dodge wrong
- or is the rule about dodge correct and the rule a bout explosives wrong.
If 2) - does the text as written on explosives leave a window open for a dodge test to be taken after all
- or is the text 100% stating that the opponent does not (never) get to roll a defensive roll to avoid the explosion?
If 3) - what could that rule be? Suggestions?
Just throwing this out, see where it lands:
Suppose that hits from the attack roll is used both for reducing scatter and as a threshold for the defense roll
(with a minimum required hits of 1 and with a defense modifiers of -2 because of the area-effect attack)
the other modifiers probably apply as well (i see no rule and no reason why not).
+2 for already being in partial cover make sense when avoiding the blast
+4 for already in good cover make sense when avoiding the blast
+2 for already running make sense when avoiding the blast
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Ooooh. Xenon. Good catch. That is much better than my being pedantic in an attempt to make the rules not suck. Go with this guy ^.
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That's really a good find, but imo there is still something missing. Getting enough hits to reach the threshhold of the grenade means what exactly? There are cases in which you can't explain it with reaching more or less perfect cover. Did I jump more than 10m away from the grenade? Did I jump net hits away from the grenade? I'd like to have more information on this. But that might just be me.
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What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?
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What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?
If you find someone playing it that way slap them with the rulebook and tell them to calm down.
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What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?
If you find someone playing it that way slap them with the rulebook and tell them to calm down.
And put the vid of that on the Internet so we can all see it! ;D
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RAW, it is written as playing it that way. it explicitly lists all 6 dimensions, including the floor (and ceiling)
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i think the -2 AoE defence mod is an error, put in the table prior to the grenades/AoE spells rules being finalised (similar to the incorrect Blast spell example).
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RAW, it is written as playing it that way. it explicitly lists all 6 dimensions, including the floor (and ceiling)
That's still only 3 dimensions (each dimension has 2 directions).
If you had a 6 dimensional grenade in Shadowrun... well that would need a hell lot'a rules.
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Grenades do kind of do damage spread over time, since explosions and the scattering of a shrapnel cloud aren't instantaneous. Beyond that, I'm kind of at a loss.
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Since they tend to explode on the ground, I wouldn't let them bounce there. As for the roof, I wouldn't let it bounce against that either because otherwise explosions inside would be waaaay too dangerous. Maybe funneling rules would help, decreasing the blast loss per meter.
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The example on page 183 (with the poor wee Devil Rat) agrees with Chandra in that explosions don't bounce off the surface the grenades are resting on, but they would totally bounce off an office cieling (assuming they're what, 2 1/2-3 m tall?). I mean if it's a 3m ceiling, a poor dude that gets a grenade on his feet would have to resist (assuming an HE 'nade): 16P+10 P (first bounce off of ceiling)+10 P(first bounce off of floor) + 4 P (second ceiling) + 4 P (second floor); for a total of 44 P; -2 AP.
At least going by the devil rat example
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Huh? Why would it bounc off the floor at the same damage? Wouldn't it be more like 16P on the floor, goes up 3 and down 1 for 8P, then down 2 for 4P on the seocnd bounce, for a total of 28P?
Might be a good idea to submit a FAQ question on how grenades bounce off ceilings.
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Wouldn't the office ceiling have to be strong enough no to simply get blown up by the grenade?
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Good point, though plascrete is strong usually they got a fake ceiling and the real ceiling is higher.
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@ Chandra: I'm going by the Devil Rat example, where the damage does exactly that.
@Crunch: You're totally right; I should have specified that the ceiling needs to resist it for it to channel. But if it did, you'd be in a bad situation.
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In all likelihood, the blast shreds the drop ceiling, continues up another meter to the structure of the floor above and reflects off of that. More importantly, if it is resting on the ground when it detonates, then it will either blow through the floor or it will reflect at the full base value of the blast.
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I'd consider it as resting on it but not as "in contact", that's more for explosives tied to the surface with tape or such. So just normal DV. So you'd take the 16P/-2 against the 10+16 soak dice of Plascrete, then apply the resulting damage. In other words, we're reducing 16P with 24 dice, and if we bring it down to 9 or less it won't take out the floor. That's roughly 3/4 chance. But I consider it strange that the example suggests an explosion bounces against the wall it's next to. I'd consider it even stranger if it bounches off the floor.
By the way: A frag grenade wouldn't pierce the plascrete even if it exploded on it, because it wouldn't pierce the Armor value.
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it would if you for example build a 1m x 1m x 1m box of placrete. maybe not on the first rebound, maybe even not on the second rebound but one grenade will destroy almost any barrier as long as you make the volume small enough (at least in theory, i have not read barrier rules for SR5 yet)
then again... rebound damage in the ceiling and the floor and up again only really affect a player if he stand right above the grenade when it goes off....
a more practical example would probably be that the nade land between the player and the far wall. wall get hit by direct blast of the bomb, rebound, pass the bomb - hit the player together with the direct blast wave from the bomb.
or that the stand in a L shaped corridor between the bomb and the corridor corner. player get hit by the direct blast in the front. blast continue pass the player. hit far wall on the corridor corner and rebound back and hit the player in the back as well. lights out.
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I got some questions about hacking grenades for which I can't find an answer:
If I manage to get a mark on a grenade, do I still need a DNI to detonate it? Are technomancers considered having a DNI per default?
If the grenade is shot with a launcher, it seems like I need to subscribe the grenade to my PAN first (actually I don't understand PAN yet)...I can't just hack the grenade and do my stuff. Does this cost me an additional action? Why is there a difference?
Can I deactivate the safety feature of minigrenades with hacking or do I have to open it or something like that?
How does a grenade know, that it is more than 5m away from the launcher, if it isn't a wireless signal?
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If you can mark the grenade, that likely means it has wireless on, which means you can detonate it without DNI as the wireless bonus says.
Given how it's a long hardware test to deactivate the safety feature, it's not hackable.
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Okay, now I am a bit confused...I thought that I always need wireless activated to detonate a grenade via DNI. It needs a "wireless link". Is there a difference between "wireless link" and "wireless"?
Thank you for your answers.
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DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.
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DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.
That's incorrect. It just means your gear is connected to your brain, but it can be wireless.
A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to
electronic devices. Direct neural interface (along with a sim
module) is required for VR use, but DNI is also useful for AR
in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an
image link to see or hear augmented reality objects.
How do you sign up? You get DNI by wearing trodes, or
having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck. And if
you’re using a sim module along with your DNI, you can get a
sort of “super AR mode” where you can also feel, smell, and
taste your AR experience.
So yes, when using a DNI your grenades need to have wireless active, but you don't need wireless active on your grenade launcher to make them explode wirelessly, so you can throw Wireless ones, too. If you don't have a DNI, you can only detonate wireless grenades with a grenade launcher.
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But DNI seems to be always better, because I can trigger the grenade with a free action. If I don't have it I will have to wait till my next action phase until I use a simple action for it.
So deckers without DNI will also need to wait?
So even if he already got a mark on my grenade and delayed his action, he can't trigger it as soon as it is 5m away from my launcher, because he has to wait. Meanwhile I detonate it with a simple action. Did I get that right?
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But DNI seems to be always better, because I can trigger the grenade with a free action. If I don't have it I will have to wait till my next action phase until I use a simple action for it.
So deckers without DNI will also need to wait?
So even if he already got a mark on my grenade and delayed his action, he can't trigger it as soon as it is 5m away from my launcher, because he has to wait. Meanwhile I detonate it with a simple action. Did I get that right?
A Decker without a DNI? That seems extremely unlikely. A datajack gives you a DNI (it probably gives off a wireless signal itself, or is plugged into the cyberdeck) and every Decker has one of those; however, many of us believe the grenade launcher grenades are not wireless until they are primed at 5 meters (and why would they be, right?) so the Decker would be unable to get a mark on the grenade before it is fired. Also, why couldn't you use your first simple action to shoot the grenade, and your second to detonate it in the same IP?
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Because it says "Without a DNI the attacker must use the Change Linked Device Mode Simple Action in their next or any of their subsequent Action Phases to detonate the projectile[...]" on page 182.
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Which is an odd rule, since any of my allies could blow up the grenade for me if they've got permission. Still, the enemy hacker won't be able to hack a mark on it -and- detonate it before you detonate it.
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I think he could, if I don't have DNI and he got the higher Initiative. A combatdecker might delay his actions, until something dangerous happens in combat...which would be seeing me pulling out a grenade launcher.
Let's assume that he got a higher initiative:
his pass: delay action
my pass: firing grenade (and it aims)
If I got DNI here, everything ends, because I detonate the grenade immediately.
If I don't:
his delayed pass: mark
his pass: brick (I just noticed that detonating it would be a very stupid idea, because the grenade already lies next to his mates)...it doesn't matter if he got DNI or not.
I am not quite sure, if he needs a matrix perception test to notice, that the thingy that just popped up is a grenade or if he can mark it instantaneously. If he would need a test to confirm it, is it possible, that he marks it on a hunch? "Mh, suddenly a new icon in a combat situation. Might be a missile or grenade. Better mark it." Does the mark reveal the fact, that it is a grenade?
But this is only the case, when he is in VR. If he really sees me firing, there shouldn't be the need for a matrix perception test.
What do you think?
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A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.
DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.
Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.
But DNI seems to be always better, because I can trigger the grenade with a free action. If I don't have it I will have to wait till my next action phase until I use a simple action for it.
So deckers without DNI will also need to wait?
So even if he already got a mark on my grenade and delayed his action, he can't trigger it as soon as it is 5m away from my launcher, because he has to wait. Meanwhile I detonate it with a simple action. Did I get that right?
DNI is faster. Not always better. Think of activating stuff with DNI as a mental command. You think it. It happens. If you want to trigger the wireless trigger without using DNI you are actually pressing a button or something similar (like the detonate grenade button on your grenade launcher). This take a bit more time, but it is still a simple action. You have two simple actions in one action phase.
- You can also use an air burst attachment on your grenade launcher. It will detonate the grenade for you once it get close to the target. That does not even take a free action and is probably the intended way of shooting wireless mini grenades with a semi-automatic grenade launcher.
Fire a grenade. Detonate grenade (either automatically with an airburst link, as a free action with the device linked to your DNI with a wireless link or as a simple action by pressing the detonation button on your grenade launcher which send a wireless command to your grenade).
A decker will have a DNI. Either through a data jack (most common), internal cyberdeck (G-men use this a lot) or using trodes (in a helmet, for example - i made an [physical] adept decker a few weeks ago that used trodes instead of data jack). You also need a sim-module, but all cyberdecks come with one (they are even modified for hot-sim).
...any of my allies could blow up the grenade for me if they've got permission...
They can?
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DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.
Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.
Given how I was talking about how to make a grenade explode on command you need it to have its wireless on, I think you kinda were proving my point even though I didn't phrase myself right. ^_^ No exploding a grenade by command without wireless on.
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A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.
So he just marks my triggering device and blows me up as soon as I hit the button? That doesn't seem right. The grenade rules say, that you need a mark on the grenade in order to detonate it. Bricking the trodes seems to be an easier option to prevent being killed by a grenade.
...any of my allies could blow up the grenade for me if they've got permission...
They can?
They can. They just need it to be registered to their PAN.
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DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.
Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.
Given how I was talking about how to make a grenade explode on command you need it to have its wireless on, I think you kinda were proving my point even though I didn't phrase myself right. ^_^ No exploding a grenade by command without wireless on.
Yes, grenades need wireless on or they can not be detonated wireless with DNI (or automatically with airburst link or as a simple action by pressing the detonate grenade button that send a wireless command to your grenade).
Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)
This mean, however, you can't slave the grenades to a commlink for better firewall.
Grenades will only have 2+2 dice when defending themselves.
With that few dice a Hacker could probably delay action and then spike a grenade to brick it mid air in one complex action.
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Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)
They don't. However, they only get armed after 5m when fired with a launcher, unless you are dumb enough to override that with a hardware check.
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A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.
So he just marks my triggering device and blows me up as soon as I hit the button? That doesn't seem right. The grenade rules say, that you need a mark on the grenade in order to detonate it. Bricking the trodes seems to be an easier option to prevent being killed by a grenade.
Spoofing is basically "fooling the grenade into thinking it's owner send a command to detonate it" (you, the owner, have 4 marks on the grenade).
The grenade is mechanically protected from detonation until it flown 5m, but after that....
Yes - Bricking the wireless data jack (or trodes or internal commlink or whatever device he use for creating a DNI) of the owner is another way to prevent him from wireless detonate the grenade (in this case using his DNI as a free action). But if the grenade launcher have wireless ON the hacker should probably just brick the grenade launcher to prevent you from shooting any grenades at all (and if the grenade launcher have wireless ON then you can just use a simple action to manually detonate the grenade wireless even if your DNI is bricked).
hen again, if your grenade launcher is wireless ON then it would make even more sense to hack the grenade launcher 10 minutes ago, while it was still on your back and have the grenade launcher fire the grenades one by one..
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Oh okay. I didn't even think about spoofing command. Thank you.
hen again, if your grenade launcher is wireless ON then it would make even more sense to hack the grenade launcher 10 minutes ago, while it was still on your back and have the grenade launcher fire the grenades one by one..
I really hope, that weapons in shadowrun still fire mechanically...anything else would be so stupid in a world where you can hack everything...
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Unless you take up electronic firing, the best they should be able to do is eject ammo right?
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Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)
They don't. However, they only get armed after 5m when fired with a launcher, unless you are dumb enough to override that with a hardware check.
A grenade being "primed" after 5m is very obscure wording. For a timed grenade, I guess the timer wouldn't start until it passes 5 meters. For a motion sensor, I guess it doesn't "motion sense" until ti passes 5 m. So for a wireless grenade... I guess it doesn't become wireless until it passes 5 meters.
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Unless you take up electronic firing, the best they should be able to do is eject ammo right?
Weapons that have a smartgun can actually be fired wireless.
But yes, A wireless firearm that is not a smartgun can not be fired wireless.
If you don't have a smartgun you only get:
-Wireless Ammo counter information
-Wireless Ammo type information
-Ejecting clip as a wireless action
-Change fire mode as a wireless action
-Wireless trigger for grenades and missiles
A grenade being "primed" after 5m is very obscure wording. For a timed grenade, I guess the timer would start until ti passes 5 meters. For a motion sensor, I guess it doesn't "motion sense" until ti passes 5 m. So for a wireless grenade... I guess it doesn't become wireless until it passes 5 meters.
As I said, an interesting idea. Not really supported by the books I think, but still an interesting concept.
40mm grenades with a safe distance exist today (real life) for impact triggered, time triggered as well as airburst triggered. The real life safe distance is closer to 25-30m than 5m. I am pretty sure that the actual grenade is basically just a dead paper weight (the explosive charge is not "armed") until it traveled the distance (or actually until it rotated enough). So even though you could "activate the trigger" it would still not detonate. If would basically be harmless to drop an impact grenade on the floor, but if the grenade start to roll down-hill it could potentially get armed and detonate the second it hit something solid...
Little practical difference if the timer start when you fire the grenade of if the timer start once it reach the safe arming distance - but for SR5 wireless grenades it actually make a pretty big difference as it would potentially make the time window where a hacker can gain a mark on the grenade very very small.
For wireless hand grenades I would take cover, ready grenade. wait until next action phase. manually set wireless ON. throw the grenade. detonate the grenade as a free action.
It is basically the same as having wireless triggered mini-grenades don't go wireless ON until they are mid-air. but even more evil since you can fire a semi-automatic burst of 3 grenades in the same complex action. where all three grenades don't go wireless ON until they are mid-air. No time for a hacker to spoof or brick them all. Not even if he use Fork software.
I think the SR5 intention is that they need to be wireless ON when you fire them, not that they auto trigger wireless ON mid-air. After all, targets don't get a defense roll and the DV even start at Dead++
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Of course the fact the hacker has to be aware of it and hack it before it gets fired, or the team must be using a jammer, kinda means any team surprised and any (npc) team without decker+jammer gets wiped off the map.
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If the smartgun system is wirelessly enabled, yes. The security of not killing my friends or ejecting my clip in combat, is worth losing one die and the possibility to change fire modes or triggering grenades.
Can one jammer jam another one?
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Nope, since Jammers don't need to be wireless they're not affected by Noise for their primary functioning. An RCC is the only thing that can counter-jam, I think.
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The Signal Scrub cyberprogram also works, although cyberdecks only get that one, while RCCs get Signal Scrub, the RCC's base Noise Reduction rating, and the ability to create more Noise Reduction on the fly. There's also the datajack implant.
Of course, since jammers can be set to ignore certain devices and persona through wireless, if the other side uses a jammer, you'll want to use one too anyway, just to even the playing field.
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What exactly does airburst link do? Does it only reduce scatter?
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What exactly does airburst link do? Does it only reduce scatter?
Yes, despite the description saying that it makes it explode close to the target, which seems to have no actual in-game rules or mechanics connected to it.
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"An airburst link reduces the scatter distance for a launched grenade by two meters per net hit instead of by one meter per hit (Determine Scatter, p. 182) when you use the wireless link trigger."
I assume the "net hit" thingy there is just a typo, but even if it is, you can reduce scatter by 4 meters at best...winning 2 meters for 600 nuyen...and your launcher and the grenade have to be wirelessly enabled (I think, it is always a bad idea to enable your launcher), which is a bad trade in my opinion...do I miss something?
And now after reading the launcher rules again: "Resolving a launched grenade, rocket, or missile attack is a two-step process. The first step determines where the projectile ends up in relation to the target (see Determine Scatter, p. 182). The second step resolves the effect of the projectile’s explosion (see Blast Effects, p. 182)." followed by "When you fire a grenade, rocket, or missile you use a Fire Weapon Simple Action and roll a Heavy Weapons + Agility [Accuracy] (3) Test modified[...]"
Did I just miss the additional information in the first quote or is there none? Why didn't the writer stick to the normal grenade rule wording. Adding the additional launcher rules afterwards would have been much less confusing. Those two sentences just being there bugs me...
Is the difference in grenade and grenade launcher wireless link rules intended or did the writer just forget something? Every other trigger section was copied&pasted.
"Wireless: You can use the wireless link trigger for your grenades, even if you don’t have DNI[...]" Doesn't this basically say, that there really are guys, that stick a cable in their grenades and detonate them?
Thank you in advance. And thank you for having taken the time to answer my past questions.
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No, DNI does not mean you have a wired link to an object. It means that you have a device wired up directly to your brain that can transmit orders to devices by simple thought. Examples include a Datajack, internal commlink, internal Deck, and so on.
The wireless detonation option for grenades is pretty much the best one, so airburst link really isn't that much of a disadvantage. If your Decker is doing his job, hacking anything important should be a risky and tiresome procedure for the enemy hackers anyway. I don't see your problem with those sentences either; first you roll hvy wepaons + agi, if you get 3 hits the gren lands where you aimed, if less than three you get scatter. Then you calculate damage from the point it exploded at. Exactly like throwing. (only the skill used to fire the grenade, the distance it can be fired and the scatter distance is different, really)
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The sentences: That is my point. "Exactly like throwing". Why not use the same wording for this? Everything that strays from the wording of a similar rule section raises the suspicion, that there is another intention behind it.
DNI: But the grenade needs to be wirelessly enabled to receive the DNI's wireless signal...I mean, no wireless communication between devices that aren't linked to the matrix. The only other way detonating a grenade with DNI is the direct connection with a cable.
So saying that you can trigger a grenade that is wirelessly enabled by other means than DNI, implies that either you don't need it to be wirelessly enabled to detonate it with DNI (which doesn't work by most peoples understanding of DNI) or that detonating grenades via cable link is a often used method to detonate grenades.
Airburst link: Having a weapon like a grenade launcher online is far more dangerous than just having the grenades and trodes online. And you don't get any real benefit by having your launcher online (I don't see the benefit over DNI..DNI is faster and safer). Getting your trodes hacked is much more desirable than getting your launcher hacked.
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Eh, the grenades won't arm themselves unless they fly 5 meters, so as long as your gren launcher can't shoot its grenades further than 5 meters while in your beg, it's completely safe.
Also, one possible explanation for the DNI is that the DNI can still contact a wireless grenade that has wireless on, but is being drowned out by Noise. The grenade's signal is then too weak to give the wireless bonus to non-DNI users, but perhaps the DNI can still interact with it.
It's more likely that the grenade rules are simply a mess, though.
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Honestly I think the whole idea is that you don't have a connection with grenades unless their wireless is on or you're in fact connecting them with a cable. This means nothing for most grenades since they don't care about your DNI, and wireless grenades need to have their wireless on in the first place, so honestly who cares.
Of course it means that you could start the timer on a timed grenade while you're elsewhere if its wireless is on. Which is cute.
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The arming range is not a wireless feature. Launcher grenades work with a rotation arming mechanism. Communication between grenade and launcher is not necessary. If that were different, launchers would be the only weapons that need to be online in order to be used at all.
I also think that they are a mess. Somehow need to make the best out of it.
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"Having a DNI", is a binary procedure: you either have it (through one of the methods mentionedo n page 222) or you don't. It's not on a device-by-device basis, and a DNI is completely different from having a direct connection, which is why DNI's are not mentioned in the hacking rules concerning such things, for instance. And s osince the grenades don't say "DNI -to- the grenade." I can only conclude, by RAW, that the cable is unnecessary. Whether that makes sense or not.. ?
We're talking SR5 grenades, nothing does.
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How do you explain to your players, that the impact triggered grenade they just shot is scattering back in their direction?
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They messed up the throw.
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If a launched grenade scatters into the 5m radius, it can't explode. Without the grenade bouncing of of something, you can't explain, why it should be armed. Would you just let the grenade land and lie around?
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If a launched grenade scatters into the 5m radius, it can't explode. Without the grenade bouncing of of something, you can't explain, why it should be armed. Would you just let the grenade land and lie around?
I wasn't aware we had to come up with detailed explanations for the official rules.
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RE Grenades Launcher wireless bonus:
This simply mean that there is a manual button on your grenade launcher that you can press for a simple action to detonate mini-grenades that have a wireless trigger.
So if you don't have DNI (which you can use to wireless detonate your mini grenade for a free action) or if someone bricked your data jack or if you ran out of free actions this action phase you can use a simple action to detonate the grenade by pressing the button on your grenade launcher.
This require the grenade launcher to be wireless ON (of course, since the button will not transmit the command to your wireless grenade if the grenade launcher have wireless OFF).
There is often a quite logical explanation to most wireless bonuses...
How do you explain to your players, that the impact triggered grenade they just shot is scattering back in their direction?
"Scatter" does not have to be the same thing as "bouncing".
They simply hit the ceiling, wall, floor, a piece of furniture or a tree branch or whatever between the target and themselves and the grenade detonated.
Motion sensor grenades use standard ranged rules (target get to use reaction+intuition to avoid it). As long as they get one net hit or more the grenade will hit their target (and not scatter at all).
What exactly does airburst link do? Does it only reduce scatter?
The purpose of the Airburst link is to detonate wireless grenades for you.
Both your grenade launcher and your mini grenades need to have Wireless ON.
(I think your grenade launcher also need to be a smartgun...)
This save you a free action (if you have DNI linked wireless to your grenade) or a simple action (if you use grenade launcher linked wireless to your grenade). This is also the only way you can practically use a semi-automatic burst to fire and detonate 3 wireless triggered mini-grenades in one action phase...
(air-burst = detonating the explosive mid-air close to your target - opposed to ground-burst which is often a timed grenade that bounce and roll and detonate while laying on the floor after a set period of time. Air-burst is a technology that exist real life).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst
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Of course the rules don't explicitly state so, so maybe someone simply didn't check the dictionary when coming up with the name. Definitely needs some clearer explicit statement if they do let you make them go boom.
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Thank you for your elaborations.
"Scatter" does not have to be the same thing as "bouncing".
They simply hit the ceiling, wall, floor, a piece of furniture or a tree branch or whatever between the target and themselves and the grenade detonated.
Motion sensor grenades use standard ranged rules (target get to use reaction+intuition to avoid it). As long as they get one net hit or more the grenade will hit their target (and not scatter at all).
My problem occurs in a very specific situation with impact triggers. By the rules it is possible, that you shoot at a target 20m away from you, the target wins the opposing test and the scatter roll is 2 for direction and 16 for range. This means that you shot the grenade 4m in front of you. The grenade didn't leave the safety zone...it couldn't have, because it is impossible (except when you are glitching) for this type of triggered grenade to bounce from something and come back. So the grenade would just lie there and do nothing. But the rules state, that the grenade explodes immediately after scattering. How can I give a logic explanation for the grenade being primed although it didn't travel more than 5 meters?
The purpose of the Airburst link is to detonate wireless grenades for you.
Both your grenade launcher and your mini grenades need to have Wireless ON.
[...]
So technically I got a motion triggered grenade, that uses a success test instead of an opposing test to hit?
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Then it wouldn't go off and the player is a horrible shot.
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Of course the rules don't explicitly state so, so maybe someone simply didn't check the dictionary when coming up with the name. Definitely needs some clearer explicit statement if they do let you make them go boom.
Yes, an explanation would not hurt.
(I have previous knowledge of what Air-Burst means so for me it felt kinda obvious what the attachment would be used for).
So technically I got a motion triggered grenade, that uses a success test instead of an opposing test to hit?
Basically, yes.
(but your grenade launcher and your motion triggered grenades does not have to have wireless ON, the airburst link [smartgun] grenade launcher and the wireless triggered grenades, do).
Then it wouldn't go off and the player is a horrible shot.
^This
(or for even more fun, let it bounce 4m away from the player... Make a new scatter roll from that point and then let it detonate when it reach the new destination. pinball dreams, extreme edition?).
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It might get worse: Scatter test puts the grenade 6m behind the gunner. Grenade goes off and kills the mage.
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That's why the Loony with the grenades is OUTSIDE the Physical Barrier.
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when they wrote "Grenades using a motion sensor are extremely dangerous." I don't think they meant that it is extremely dangerous for your your opponents ;)
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You obviously never ran with the guy who booby-trapped the hell out of a room, then went back in without disarming anything to get his toothbrush.