Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Alpha-00 on <08-15-13/0428:37>
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Some Questions. I'm really sorry if there are already answers to them and somehow I've missed them. Will be grateful for direct links to discussion threads in such case.
1. First Aid. In both description of the skill and "Healing" chapter it is described as a way to treat wounds. Gunshots, brocken bones, burns etc. But one of my players insists that it should also help to cure damage from stim patches, toxins, biofeedback damage and damage from overdose. I'm not sure if he is completely wrong and is in dire need of some rules clarification.
2. WAN. It's description states that when you are in, you are in hard - any devices that are slaved to host are considered direct connected. And if it is "plug-in-a-datajack-and-have-your-unprotected-by-master-device-hack"-connection, then what is the point? Because if slaved-to-host devices is not protected, than it is way too easy to gain lots of marks on the host.
2.1. Mark on master device = mark on all slaved devices?
2.2. You can enter ANY host with just one mark? Are there any hidden hosts?
2.3. Are hosts using their Host Rating instead of mental attributes all the time?
3. Crash Program and IC. Are ICs considered programs of the host? Or Crash Program is hacker vs hacker stuff only?
3.1. Are ICs considered programs at all? - my technomancer player wanted to have it as his Submersion bonus for Resonance [Program]. It is certainly not one of common or hacking programs listed, so I said no.
4. Limits. Should I use augmented attributes or natural ones for calculations? I'd prefer to use natural ones - it limits characters with superior cyberlimbs (elf with AGI 2, STR 1 natural, but four cyberlimbs AGI 10, STR 9, anyone?)
4.1. If only one part of character have increased attribute (say, maxed out cyberlimb) should there be different Limit for actions with this part?
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1. Unless it says that First Aid can't be used, such as for Drain, it can.
4. You use the augmented attributes.
4.1. Yes, the limit can vary in this case.
Not sure about 2 and 3.
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1. You can use First Aid there.
2. Yup, when you're in the host you're connected to all devices in the WAN as if by datajack. Better not put any devices in the WAN other than the high rating ones, Chummer. This is why I personally reason that there must be a way to have devices working in a Host but not in the WAN, because else the employees of the Host couldn't use less-secure devices without enormous security concerns.
2.1 No, mark on a slaved device = mark on the master, not the other way around.
2.2 P. 219: "You might recognize the Seattle ACHE’s ziggurat shape, or the mother-and-child logo of Humanis, or (if you have access) the three orbiting spheres of JackPoint." I take that to mean that if you don't have access to JackPoint, you can't recognize it in the Matrix. You can probably find a Host's location through devices that are in the Host, though.
2.3 Hosts also have all four Matrix attributes: Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, and Firewall. The ratings of these attributes are usually (Host Rating), (Host Rating + 1), (Host Rating + 2), and (Host Rating + 3), in any order. For example, a Rating 4 host might have Attack 5, Sleaze 4, Data Processing 7, Firewall 6. A host’s attributes are shared by itself and its IC programs.
P. 247
3. Intrusion countermeasures, or IC (pronounced “ice”), is a type of program that runs in hosts.
p. 247
3.1 See answer #3. IC -is- a program... that runs in -hosts-. It can't run on a living persona, a commlink, deck, etc...
4. Augmented, of course. People with above-human features have Limits above normal humans, surely that makes sense? 4 Cyberlimbs is a really big investment, you could make a much nastier character otherwise.
4.1 Hmmm... well, if you ever run into a situation where no limbs are being used, you'd use the default stats, sure. But what action could you take with a Physical Limit that does not use the limbs?
Word of advice: Don't try to curbstomp every build a player comes up with that seems to be quite good, like this niche 4-cyberlimbs elf. I have a GM that's probably going to freak out when he finds out Edge can be used to put Force 1 spells in force 1 sustaining foci, and I really wish he could just get with the times and accept change for once.
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GM that's probably going to freak out when he finds out Edge can be used to put Force 1 spells in force 1 sustaining foci, and I really wish he could just get with the times and accept change for once.
Why freak out? First enemy magician that knows the spell is there will simply dispel it with a chuckle. Since it's, ya know, opposed by force+magic.
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GM that's probably going to freak out when he finds out Edge can be used to put Force 1 spells in force 1 sustaining foci, and I really wish he could just get with the times and accept change for once.
Why freak out? First enemy magician that knows the spell is there will simply dispel it with a chuckle. Since it's, ya know, opposed by force+magic.
He's just like that :p But hey, the difference between Force 1 and Force 4 (best sustaining focus at char gen) is only 3 dice anyway.
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If it was just edge like earlier editions it would be less of an issue but since its edge and reagents it is fairly broken. It allows a force 1 focus to emulate a force 4 or higher one, At force 4 we are looking at 200 dispelling/wards etc I'd have to use against the mage to make it break even in just nuyen cost. Its basically something for nothing and it gives augmentations to the mage for way too cheap. I don't want to waste that much time micro managing the balance levels of your gear so some rules gimmick a player came up with doesn't screw with things. I don't have to come up with dozens of ways per session to shut down anyone elses gear why in gods name would I want to do it for the mage.
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If it was just edge like earlier editions it would be less of an issue but since its edge and reagents it is fairly broken.
Magical Equipment, pg. 461:
Reagents, per dram 20 nuyen
That's not nothing. And it definitely does add up. Keep in mind, reagents replace the limit, they do not add to it. So if FC 1 or sustaining foci 1 guy wants to have a limit of 6, that's 120 nuyen for the buff. And the spell is insanely easy to dispel. Plus, high security areas will occasionally(perhaps even usually) be mana-warded. Which means the spell has to go off and then be recast. For another edge or another 120 nuyen. Spending 2 edge on a buff is definitely NOT 'for free'. Edge is too friggin' useful for that be 'free'. Meanwhile, this spell now has 7 or 8(if the magician was full twink and had 7 starting magic) dice to resist dispelling. While a decent magician will have 12 ore more. Even if that doesn't autokill the spell, it will greatly weaken it. And for no drain.
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Edge didn't break Limits before, because they weren't a "thing".
Doesn't a background count of 1 insta crash all of the Force 1 sustaining foci? There's not even a check for it, and background counts are relatively common. There's nothing similar that will screw the samurai over, for instance. Plus if you make them walk through one mana barrier they're all off and have to be recasted too. You're sounding a bit melodramatic there. There are still plenty of good reasons to want actual stats over the Foci, and in any case you don't "micro-manage" the balance, unless you're planning on countering the mage's foci every single adventure, in which case you're just being adversarial. Give the mage 1 Mission where you completely screw with his foci every 3-4 runs or so, and I can guarantee he'll be going for less Sustaining Foci 1 the next time around. Leave him (mostly) alone on the focus side of things for much of the other Missions, else it'll get tedious for everyone.
Hell, my personal mage build has only 1 of them. That's the maximum number I feel comfortable with before it's putting all my eggs into one basket and risk losing them in one fell swoop.
Also, you can destroy one of the foci with enemy mages targeting them through astral perception (they have their own auras while active, which can be targeted) with direct physical spells every so often. A force 1 focus is cheap enough that it's no drama to replace, but the player will be feeling the burn. Really, there's no reason to get salty over them, they have a hundred vulnerabilities.
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If it was just edge like earlier editions it would be less of an issue but since its edge and reagents it is fairly broken.
Magical Equipment, pg. 461:
Reagents, per dram 20 nuyen
That's not nothing. And it definitely does add up. Keep in mind, reagents replace the limit, they do not add to it. So if FC 1 or sustaining foci 1 guy wants to have a limit of 6, that's 120 nuyen for the buff. And the spell is insanely easy to dispel. Plus, high security areas will occasionally(perhaps even usually) be mana-warded. Which means the spell has to go off and then be recast. For another edge or another 120 nuyen. Spending 2 edge on a buff is definitely NOT 'for free'. Edge is too friggin' useful for that be 'free'. Meanwhile, this spell now has 7 or 8(if the magician was full twink and had 7 starting magic) dice to resist dispelling. While a decent magician will have 12 ore more. Even if that doesn't autokill the spell, it will greatly weaken it. And for no drain.
Um woo 120 nuyen and yeah you are right its replace not add, but whoopee at force 4 that is 150 dispels at force 6 166 and that is too just break even on the cash side. That is like 3 characters down the line you might spend enough reagents to equal the cost in savings character 1 got from going force 1. And then on top of that he saves karma.. And honestly dispelling, why doesn't he just kill you instead. Seriously if anything that is an advantage because then people might waste actions dispelling my "weak" focus instead of just killing me.
Its a broken gets something for nothing gimmick.
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Seriously if anything that is an advantage because then people might waste actions dispelling my "weak" focus instead of just killing me.
Thank you for admitting the buff is so slight that the antagonists would simply ignore it. You've made my case better than I ever could.
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Seriously if anything that is an advantage because then people might waste actions dispelling my "weak" focus instead of just killing me.
Thank you for admitting the buff is so slight that the antagonists would simply ignore it. You've made my case better than I ever could.
Wow, that is absurd. Any buff is better to have dispelled than be killed. Your case sucks hard. I used math to show how broken it is, it saves money and karma in the short and long run. There is no cost for a fairly large gain.
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Seriously if anything that is an advantage because then people might waste actions dispelling my "weak" focus instead of just killing me.
Thank you for admitting the buff is so slight that the antagonists would simply ignore it. You've made my case better than I ever could.
Wow, that is absurd. Any buff is better to have dispelled than be killed. Your case sucks hard. I used math to show how broken it is, it saves money and karma in the short and long run. There is no cost for a fairly large gain.
No, you did not. Here's my counterexample.
Magicker McMage is ready to rock-and-roll. He has focused concentration 1. He needs this thing to rock, so he takes out 6 drams(120 nuyen) and casts the spell at force 1. He gets 5 successes. So now he's got +2d6 on his roll and +5 to his initiative score. The spell is force 1 but with 5 net hits.
Magicker McMage is spotted by a watcher spirit as he's preparing to enter the EvilCorp central office. The watcher spirit reports Magicker and his spell to it's owner, a security mage on site.
Naturally, Evilcorp's mage. He then casts his own increase reflexes spell at force 3. He's got 3 in focused concentration. He gets 4 hits but only gets to keep 3.
A fight shortly thereafter ensues.
Magicker's own spirit informs him of the Evilcorp mage and his spell. Magicker, being a manly man is just going to kill the enemy magician.
Magicker's initiative is 3d6 + 13 = 23
Evilcorp's intiative is 26d + 11 = 18
Magicker winds up and throws a lightning bolt at force 6. He's got 6's in the spellcasting group and magic attribute. 12 dice nets him 4 hits.
Evilcorp counterspells. Hard. He only has 5 in his sorcery group. He adds those 5 dice to his intuition 5 + reaction 3 roll. 13 dice net him 8 hits
18: Evilcorp dispels Magicker's spell. Evilcorp has 11 dice. He gets 4 hits. The spell resists with 7 dice. It gets 2 hits. Those 2 net hits reduce the effect of the spell immediately and Magicker has to roll a dice to subtract from his initiative.
Magicker rolls a 3 for a total of 5 intiative lost. Magicker's new intiative is 17.
Next pass:
Evilcorp goes first at 8. He dispels again. 11 dice vs. 7 gets him 2 net again. Poor Magicker loses another 1d6 + 2 off his initiative and now has a meager +1 from the one net hit remaining. His die roll comes up a 4 for a total of 6 lost.
Fortunately for Magicker, he still has 1 initiative. He throws another lightning bolt with his 12 dice. Evilcorp has only 8 dice to dodge and get his by 2 net hits. He rolls his 4 body + 12 armor - 6AP to resist. He gets 3 hits and takes 5P from the attack. He would also loses -5 initiative and takes a penalty for the rest of the combat turn. Fortunately for Evilcorp, the combat turn is now over.
Next initiative:
Magicker: 1d6 + 9 for 12 initiative
Evilcorp 2d6 + 11 - 1(wounds) for 17 initiative
Evilcorp throws his own lightning bolt with his 10 dice(including wound mod). Naturally, Magicker is going to counterspell. He has 14 dice total and avoids the first bolt.
Magicker casts lightning bolt back with 12 dice. Evilcorp throws his counterspelling into it for 13. He also avoids the first bolt.
2nd pass.
Evilcorp goes again and throws 10 dice, again. This time Magicker only has 8 and gets hit. His 5 body + 12 armor -6 AP give him 3 hits. He takes 4P and a -5 to his initiative, which costs him his remaining action.
3rd turn
Evilcorp rolls 2d6 + 10 and gets 17.
Magicker rolls 1d6 + 8 and gets 11.
Evilcorp casts lightning bolt, yet again...but against Magicker's full counterspelling...he dodges.
Magicker realizes he's in a bad way and decides to remedy the situation. He pulls out his trusty drams, drops his sustained spell, and throws out another force 1 increase reflexes with 6 drams. His 11 dice net him 3 hits. His initiative goes up by 1d6 + 3, for a total of 6. He's now going at 17/7. Now it's Evilcorp's turn.
Evilcorp dispels. 10 dice vs 6, he gets 2 net. Magicker loses 1d6 and 2...he's back down to 11.
Magicker goes at 1. Frustrated, he casts a lightning bolt at Evilcorp yet again. Evilcorp counterspells for 11 vs 13. He misses.
...Do you see where this is going yet?
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...Do you see where this is going yet?
In the general direction of huge offtop, I think
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Yes, let's try to get back on-topic, shall we?