Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: DigitalZombie on <08-21-13/0514:38>
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2 questions really
1) how many sprites can a technomancer have registered at a time? I presume its charisma according to page 98, but I havent been able to find it elsewhere in the book (are you only limited to charisma number of sprites at character generation, and during play the sky is the limit?) and can they all be active at the same time?
I guess I will play it as charisma is the limit.
2) I have read in many threads that the diagnostic power potentially can work indefinetly when sustained by a registered sprite, I find that rather powerful. And does the power stack with itself? say I have a sprite running diagnostics on my smartlinked gun with 3 successes and another sprite doing the same on my smartlinked contact lenses (and a third on my muscle replacement\cyberarm) would that give the person a whooping 9 dice bonus when firing his gun? ... that doesnt seem right :o does the power count against the +4 augmentation bonus? can I have muscle replacement 3 with a +5 diagnostic bonus?
I guess I will play it as the power does not stack with itself, but Im unsure of how to handle the semi permanent bonus.
thank you for your time
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To answer your first question; I don't know if it does say it anywhere (it may need to be errata'd) but the cap is almost certainly supposed to be Charisma at all times, just like magicians and spirits.
To answer the second, it does not stack with itself, strictly speaking. Or it does, but not in any game-breaking way. Diagnostics is a Teamwork Test, meaning the possible bonus you can receive from it is capped at whatever skill rating is involved (this also means it may not be applicable to any tests that do not use a skill). So it's not related in any way to the augmentation cap, and remember, it has to be a wireless device. Muscle Replacement isn't wireless, so you couldn't use a Machine Sprite on it. Doing something like putting it in someone's contacts or goggles likely wouldn't help them fire a gun, even if it has Smartlink, as they are not using the contacts themselves to fire, and you can't put it directly into the smartlink because that's just software, not a device. However, it can go into the smart gun and into someone's cyberarm. The former definitely gives a bonus to their attack rolls. The latter could be argued to only apply to things like implanted cyberweapons in said arm or unarmed attacks-- It's a GM ruling on how prevalent they want the Diagnostics bonus to be, since it is vague enough to apply to almost literally everything one way or another if you don't try to restrict it at all.
And just to confirm, it is indeed almost permanent. The sprite can sustain Diagnostics forever without using more tasks, but this requires the object in question to be wirelessly active the whole time, leaving it vulnerable. At the same time, the Sprite is also vulnerable, though they can both be running silent. Should the device be turned off, get bricked, or disabled via Noise (you enter an area with 3 Noise and the wireless on any weapons or basic cyberware ceases to function-- And the Sprite has no way to negate noise, so it can't reach it) then the Sprite can no longer sustain Diagnostics and another task will need to be used to get it to reestablish the power.
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Ok, I guess the first part makes sense with a charisma limit on sprites.
I didnt read the teamwork part very closely, but that naturally puts a limit on the diagnostic bonusses ;)
Although according to page 451 all cyberware has wireless cabability, its just not all that has a wireless bonus. Which would mean the sprite would potentially have access to all of them, as long as wireless is enabled. But should it then be limited to those warez with a wireless bonus? and giving the sprite the ability to only affect those bonusses then?
Would you then allow a sprite on a smartgun and another on the smartlink to stack (with a limit of the skill rank )?
PS. Ive just been rereading the teamwork test, it seems odd that the onus is limited by the person performing the test itself. Id rather like the idea that a team member can be guided by the team demolition expert, when setting up a bomb. Id have thedemolition expert roll logic+demolition [lowest of mental or social] and give the net hits as bonus dices to the hapless guy fiddling wih the bomb, but I cant as he doesnt have a single rank in demolition >:(
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Page 98: A player can only have a number of Registered Sprites equal to the character's Charisma. But yes, they should add it to the Registering section as well.
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"To start a Teamwork test, your group needs to choose
someone to act as the leader. All of the others serve as
assistants, and they should roll the appropriate skill + attribute.
For each assistant that scores at least one hit, the
relevant limit for the leader’s test increases by one. Additionally,
each hit the assistants make adds one die to
the leader’s dice pool. The most dice that can be added
to the test is equal to the leader’s rating in the applicable
skill, or the highest attribute rating if the test involves
two attributes. The leader then rolls their adjusted dice
pool and tries to beat the threshold for the test." - Page 49
So Machine Sprites can, in fact, add to attribute tests. This means if you nab Reflex Enhancers or dump the Essence on Wired Reflexes, you can Machine Sprite your defense rolls. Also, regarding being connected to the matrix at all times: you can use Trodes / Datajack and DNI into your stuff. I presume anything you can access, it can access. And putting a Machine Sprite in your eyes that have a Smartlink installed should impact your Accuracy bonus. As my general rule of thumb, if an item is supplying a bonus, mitigating a penalty, or allowing something to happen period then the device is being "used."
I know it seems overwhelming, I was rather O_o towards it for a long time. However, a Technomancer doesn't gain access to any other dice modifiers in the meat world and like all spellcasters will be rather Karma-starved. In the end, other Archetypes achieve the same or better dice bonuses, with few exceptions. Then there's the fact that the Leadership Skill can do everything a Machine Sprite can and more.
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No, you can't. Diagnostics helps you use a device for a certain test, meaning it will help you drive a vehicle when used on the vehicle, it will help you shoot a smartgun when it's on the smartgun, and so on.
What it will -not- do is increase the dice pool bonus you get from a device when doing something that does not directly relate to that device. So thinking about the Reflex Recorder, it will not help you there because you're not trying to use the Reflex Recorder to do something, the Reflex Recorder is helping you do something unrelated to itself. It literally says:
if any hits are rolled, the character gets a +1 limit bonus, and each hit adds 1 die to the character’s dice pool to use or repair the item.
Using the Reflex Recorder does not involve a dicepool. You don't say "I use the Recorder!" and then roll to see how successful it is, so it doesn't work. It's a Teamwork test, where the Sprite helps you to use the device, if you're not trying to do an action on a device, then what is it teamworking with? Again, this is in stark contrast to using it on a Deck (where every action you do to Hack is literally using the deck as a 'weapon'), on a vehicle (and vehicle defense is 2 attributes, so that explains that, too) or using it on a gun. All things that are used directly, rather than providing dicepool bonuses.
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Reflex Recorder is bioware... Oh whoops, I meant Reaction Enhancers, not Reflex Enhancers. The... issue with your line of thought is that it makes Muscle Augmentations the be all and end all of stuff to put a Machine Sprite in. I mean, you are "using" your muscles for basically everything, after all. All you need is something to cover knowledge skills and something to cover your living persona, and bam! Done.
Oh, made me think of something. You know what's absolutely amazing to put a Machine Sprite in? Skillwires.
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No, you're still not quite getting it :p Your muscles are also helping you accomplish things, they give you a "bonus" to getting things done, but you never go "I roll a dice to see how well I use my muscles.", so the Sprite can't go "Alright, I'll help you use them muscles!" Instead you go "I punch this guy in the face." and your muscles help you do that. Seriously, it helps if you imagine the Sprite being on your computer. Would it help you there? Yes, since every test you make is trying to use your PC, directly. Now move it to your Cerebral Boosters while you're still using the PC. Will it help now? No, because the device you're using is the PC, not your cerebral boosters. They're just there to help.
Or, better yet, think of it like this: The Reaction Enhancers are a person using teamwork. So is the Sprite.
You try to use a gun that the Sprite is on, so the Sprite tries to help you use the gun: Reaction Enhancer and Sprite both roll teamwork to help your shooty action, targeting you as the leader. Alright, cool, that works.
Now put the sprite on the Reaction Enhancer: The sprite is now using teamwork on... the reaction enhancer, not you (since you're not actively using it), while the Reaction Enhancer is still rolling teamwork on you. So the Sprite would aid the Enhancer, which would aid you. The bonus would be smaller, but presumably it'd work... except that in reality, the RE isn't rolling anything, so there's no dicepool the sprite can help with, so its aid never reaches you. (also, I think teamwork on someone, so they can use teamwork on someone else better, is not allowed by RAW)
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...I've actually said those exact words, although in a D&D campaign. It was about as hilarious a situation as it sounds. If using those words more gives me a bonus, I'll say them more. Barbarian Technomancer is a go.
More seriously, I find your logic funny and think you're wrong. I'm not really sure how to extrapolate on this because I'm not entirely sure what your logic actually... is. I think you're somehow giving Reaction Enhancers, et cetera a sense of autonomy? Reaction Enhancers don't do jack on their own. Someone needs to move them around and try and do something in order for them to matter at all. I'm not sure how someone could do that without it also be "using" them.
I'm particularly confused by your punch example. That's like... the most direct application of one's muscles possible. I mean, do I say, "I use my fist, more particularly the muscles in my fist and also my ligaments and my bones help too to punch that guy in the face." ? No. I don't, because that's too verbose. I shorten all of that into, "I punch the guy in the face." I assume my fellow players can surmise that my muscles are contributing to this.
Actually, lets examine this juxtaposed to your gun example. When I fire a gun, I'm saying "I shoot that guy in the face." I assume that the rest of the table can just assume that I'm using my gun to accomplish that goal. By your logic, why would the Machine Sprite apply here? I'm shooting that guy in the face, the Gun is just like a person using teamwork to help me. I mean, the bullet is doing all the work, after all. Shouldn't I have to put the Machine Sprite in the bullet in order to get a benefit out of it?
If I seem harsh, I'm not trying to be. Your logic just... profoundly confuses me so I'm trying to understand what, exactly, you are saying.
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If the use of the device does not require a roll for using the device then a teamwork test is impossible as there's no test. Diagnostics on a gun, medkit or vehicle is fine, but since there's no test to see if your muscles work using them on Muscle Replacement wouldn't help much for anything but repair.
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If the use of the device does not require a roll for using the device then a teamwork test is impossible as there's no test. Diagnostics on a gun, medkit or vehicle is fine, but since there's no test to see if your muscles work using them on Muscle Replacement wouldn't help much for anything but repair.
Yes, this. Like I said, there's no dicepool the sprite can help with. And you might find the logic funny Soul, but that's only because I have to try and figure out a way to explain an intuitive, basic concept here, one you don't expect to ever really have to explain. That's not an insult, we all have different frames of reference, but it's as hard as it sounds. Presenting the reaction enhancer as a person is just an analogy, it prevents having to use the word "use" all the time, since that's the word that is causing your confusion. I'm not sure to be surprised or mildly insulted that you didn't extrapolate that, as it implies holding my mental faculties in very low esteem :p Obviously your muscles aren't sentient.
And no, you wouldn't have to use it on the bullet. You're directly using the gun. The sprite is directly helping you use the gun. The bullet that flies out is just a result of your successful use of the gun, coming only after the roll. A roll that is specifically about using the gun, and helped by many factors (like your body) but isn't -about- those factors.
And as you said "my muscles are contributing to this." That's 1 step muscles -> you. If you put a Sprite on there, the sprite is contributing to the muscles, not to you. So that'd be sprite -> muscles -> you. To make the ANALOGY to teamwork tests, it'd be like helping someone help someone else, which isn't how it works. That's even ignoring what else Crunch (and I) have been saying; there's no dicepool on the muscle enhancement for the sprite to help out with.
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Ack.. there seems to be a fine line here, and Im in the same boat with soulgambit= I cant see that line
Can diagnostics by your account (Unahim and Crunch) not be used on any kind of cyberware then? if it doesnt work on muscle augmentation, would it work on a cyberarm? Are you saying it only works on external equipment then? (with exceptions like implanted commlinks)
Because if the sprite can optimise my smartlinked cybergun to better hit enemies, then I cant see why it shouldnt be able to optimise the cyberlimb itself to hit that guy.
And if the sprite can optimise the smart gun, wouldnt another sprite be able to optimize the smartlink also (doubling the bonus)?
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If there's a test to use the item, as opposed to the item aiding a test, then you get the diagnostics bonus.
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Ack.. there seems to be a fine line here, and Im in the same boat with soulgambit= I cant see that line
Can diagnostics by your account (Unahim and Crunch) not be used on any kind of cyberware then? if it doesnt work on muscle augmentation, would it work on a cyberarm? Are you saying it only works on external equipment then? (with exceptions like implanted commlinks)
Because if the sprite can optimise my smartlinked cybergun to better hit enemies, then I cant see why it shouldnt be able to optimise the cyberlimb itself to hit that guy.
And if the sprite can optimise the smart gun, wouldnt another sprite be able to optimize the smartlink also (doubling the bonus)?
The gun/smartlink is one system, designed to improve accuracy. You use the device directly, and there's a dicepool in its use (firearm skill). For cyberweapons... it -might- work. Might, because they can be wireless devices, and you're using them to make an attack, sure. I can't speak against the RAW here. As your GM though, I wouldn't allow it, since I don't see how the diagnostics would help out. But that part is house rule, and we're discussing RAW right now, and there I'm not entirely sure it doesn't work.
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But there's not a test to use a gun, unless I'm shooting someone.
There is not a test to use my muscles, unless I'm using my muscles to punch someone.
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But there's not a test to use a gun, unless I'm shooting someone.
There is not a test to use my muscles, unless I'm using my muscles to punch someone.
Shooting the gun is the test to use the gun. Cyberware stat augmentations on the other hand aid a whole number of tests, but are only an augmentation to those roles. The character without a gun cannot shoot, the character without muscle replacement can still punch someone.
You could make an argument that diagnostics would aid a cyberlimb in punching- since the cyberlimb has it's own strength stat rather than using the characters.
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I think I am, at the very least, beginning to see your logic. You feel that Diagnostics only works on an action that absolutely requires the item to take place at all. No item, no roll.
That would imply that a Machine Sprite can never ever help with building stuff. You can technically build stuff without the proper tools, the tools just modify your roll. If anything you'd need to Machine Sprite the materials under that logic... which is O_o.
In fact, Machine Sprites don't help with any action that is enhanced by tools. Stealth with a Camoflage Suit. They can't help Medkits. Et Cetera Et Cetera. More importantly, they also can't ever help a Technomancer's Living Persona, meaning the Technomancer can't ever get a Hacking dicepool worth a damn when compared to... any other option. Technomancers suddenly become the worst and what they are meant to be the best at.
That's... entirely too restrictive and, thankfully, conjecture based on your definition of "use" and whether you think contributing to / modifying the dicepool is enough to qualify. I'm not saying your viewpoint, assuming it is the above, is invalid. But its ridiculously restrictive. I think Diagnostics under that design may help with driving a car, shooting a gun, repairing stuff, and using a Deck... and... that's it? Woo~
The thing is, that logic leads to other silliness. Lets say I'm opening a door. I use a crowbar to pry it open, I'm using the crowbar. Sure, it only "helps out," but I'm using the crowbar so its helpful. Conversely, the crowbar is not helpful if its not being used. Under your logic, diagnostics on the crowbar wouldn't help because I'm not "using" it.
If I am using a fully robotic medkit to help treat someone, having a Machine Sprite run diagnostics does absolutely squat. Sure I'm "using the medkit" if I ask any lay person, but its only augmenting my rolls. Its assisting, et cetera.
I can't use Diagnostics to help make a Trid. Sure I'm using my console, but I can be creative without it so its only augmenting my roll.
While some items are used to make actions possible, other items are used to make actions easier. You use a stove instead of a stone slab because its faster. You use a calculator instead of doing math in your head because its easier. You use your augmented muscles instead of your flesh ones because it is easier.
God only in Shadowrun can we have these discussions over the word "use." -_-;
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Nope, because repairing an item is explicitly covered under diagnostics.
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What? I think you misread my post?
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For building and repairing (which at this point are covered by the same rules) the machine sprite is using diagnostics on the item being built or repaired, not the tools.
Making trids isn't covered by the rules, but if you take using the camera to record the scene as a discreet action (which it is, take it from an old lighting tech "makin a trid" is a bunch of little actions not one big one) using the camera could be assisted by the diagnostics.
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Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.
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Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.
As there are no separate Building rules in SR 5 as yet, and all Building and Repairing rules use the same modifiers that statement is simply not true in SR5. For SR5 purposes "Build and Repair" is a single concept and anything that applies to one applies to both.
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"and," "or," and "/" are all used to link two different things. Just because the rules for doing two different things are the same doesn't mean they are the same thing. For example, the Leadership Skill has several options under it. A bonus to "Rally" does not also give one a bonus to "Direct." They are two things that use the same skill in the same way for different results. Most Influence Skills use the same rules with the same modifiers for different results. A bonus to one does not give you a bonus to all the others. Engineering Skills and Hardware are different skills that can be used in different ways to achieve different results. A bonus to one of these (repair) does not also imply a bonus to all other ways to use a skill (i.e. build).
Actually, if you look very closely, Building and Repairing don't have some unified system. They have a unified set of modifiers, and that's it. Building from scratch also requires a knowledge skill. And the so-called "rules" basically say "use the common extended action rules in the front of the book."
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Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.
As there are no separate Building rules in SR 5 as yet, and all Building and Repairing rules use the same modifiers that statement is simply not true in SR5. For SR5 purposes "Build and Repair" is a single concept and anything that applies to one applies to both.
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Ok, lets see if I got this. I went through the book from the start of the gear list to the end.
1) No items can get the bonus if they arent wireless enabled\or in some other way cabable of coming in contact with the sprite
2) no melee weapons gets the bonus, except monofilament whip? (depends on if the whips is purely passive or if it can move on its own)
3) projectile weapons gets the bonus, if they are smartlinked
4) all firearms gets the bonus, smartlink is not necessary, as long as its wireless enabled if they are smartguns
5) missiles gets the bonus on their sensor test
6) chameleon suit and thermal damping gets the bonus
7) commlinks, cyberdecks, bugscanners, all levels of tools kit\shop\facility gets it (links and decks are personas when in use)
8 ) vision enhancements, audio enhancements, spatial recognizer and other sensors with a dicepool gets it
9)security devices but not restraints (page 447)
10) B and E gear, except crowbar (duh),miniwelder and monosaw
11)survival gear only gasmask\hazmat gives a bonus on analyze rolls, respirator and gecko gloves gets the bonus
12) medkit,antidote patch gets it
13)All augmentation that can be purchased as non cyberware gets the bonus, commlink, cyberdeck, olfactory booster, taste booster, datalock, ultra sound sensor, voice modulator, cyberguns
14) all vehicles and drones
15) the diagnostic bonus on repairing can be used on all items cabable of wireless transmission, even if they arent electronic devices themselves, like katanas and pants
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I'm a bit naturally against Machine Sprites being so easy to utilize simply because I don't think a TM should have (or give to his allies) a bonus to just about everything all the time. They shouldn't need it to be better at hacking, either. When Data Trails is released, if it has alternate Streams like from SR4, it's likely some of them won't have access to Machine Sprites; that hopefully will not automatically make them automatically fall behind at everything they do. One sprite shouldn't be so core to a TM's capabilities.
I wouldn't restrict it quite as much, but the wording does need some clarification. Any ability that can be so clearly (to those who argue their side) either restricted to the four things SoulGambit mentioned or extended to "Anything linked to an augmented attribute, anything involving my arm, any matrix action, and anything else that even brushes shoulders with a device" is in need of some clarifying errata. I don't think Machine Sprites were meant to be the catch-all-end-all buff ability.
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Chameleon Suit and Thermal Dampening do not let you run a test on their effectiveness, right? Don't they just reduce the dice of the opponent's Perception test?
Firearms need a smartlink to be wireless don't they?
I'd list a few more but honestly I think Diagnostics is too wide and abuse-possible.
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Firearms do need a smartlink, but when built into the gun internally (or externally) they together count as a wireless device, as they mention that bricking someone's smartlink apparently makes it so the gun stops working entirely (apparently the trigger is changed to be entirely superfluous, since you don't actually need it for a smartlink anyways).
A chameleon suit gives a bonus to your tests when the wireless is active, so it'd likely be a valid target for Diagnostics. I agree with you though. I don't need a hard list, I'd just like them to give me something other than "use", because as silly as it is, use is one of the vaguest terms.
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There are, in fact, separate building rules, Crunch. One requires a knowledge skill, one does not. In the case of building things, the exact details of the test involves are set by the GM. In the case of repairing, the details of time are left to the GM while, IIRC, its based on the number of damaged health boxes. Those are two seperate, distinct things. The only things they have in common are modifiers and that the GM sets how long the intervals are. Given that this is not a game emphasizing building stuff, I suspect it to remain at about that level of abstractions.
@DigitalZombie. How I think the rules work, Crunch obviously disagrees with me. I'll try and present both sides where applicable. Crunch, please correct me if I mispeak for you.
1) The Sprite has to be able to reach them somehow. I'd probably allow DNI, dunno what Crunch would say.
2) I'd let Melee Weapons weapons in, personally, but that's more to keep things fair than it is because it makes sense.
3) Yup.
4) Yup.
5) Yup
6) I say yes, I believe Crunch says no.
7) I say yes. Crunch (again, correct me if I'm wrong) would say: Yes, yes, no, maybe.
8 ) I say they would get them. Crunch says no.
9) Define "Security Devices"
10) Yup
11) I'd let it on any roll they modify. Crunch would agree with you here.
@Firebug: Oh, I agree with you. This issue is that the Machine sprite feels cheesy even if, at the end of the day the TM needs it just to compare. The fault lands squarely on the writers of the book. We should not have to have a discussion about what "use" means. At the end of the day? The Machine Sprite helps the Technomancer keep up and just replaces the leadership skill. Nothing stops the Face from getting on a commlink and doing all of this stuff. If the Face is also a Spirit Summoner, then its actually probably near the top of what s/he should be doing--after summoning stuff.
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1) No items can get the bonus if they arent wireless enabled
It's not a wireless bonus but the sprite has to get in there somehow. As TMs don't currently have access to DNI outside of wireless or Trodes Wireless would seem simplest, but if a TM had trodes attached or a datajack Link I don't have a problem.
2) no melee weapons gets the bonus, except monofilament whip? (depends on if the whips is purely passive or if it can move on its own)
There's a fair amount of room for interpretation here, certainly you could make an argument for Shock Gloves or a Stun Baton. Essentially the weapon would have to be sophisticated enough to count as a device.
3) projectile weapons gets the bonus, including knives (maybe not knifes, I mean how much can a digital friend help ou there)
It depends and there's room for interpretation. I can't think of a projectile sophisticated enough to give the bonus to, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be one.
4) all firearms gets the bonus, smartlink is not necessary, as long as its wireless enabled
Again it doesn't need to be wireless necessarily, but it has to be connected to the matrix in some way. Whether all guns get the bonus depends on how much electronics your GM thinks a non smartguin in the 2070s has. As a rule of thumb I'd say any gun that could be hacked could get the bonus.
5) missiles gets the bonus on their sensor test
Any active sensor should be able to benefit yes.
6) chameleon suit and thermal damping gets the bonus
I'd say no, as neither the Chameleon Suit or the Thermal Damping is being used to make a test that the teamwork test could directly benefit from.
7) commlinks, cyberdecks, bugscanners, all levels of tools gets it
Yeah, anything electronic and active should benefit. How MUCH it helps a Cyberdeck and in what way is something I'd have to look at. As for tools I'd again say that the sprite is using the power on the thing being fixed or built rather than the tool itself.
8 ) vision enhancements, audio enhancements, spatial recognizer and other sensors
Not ones that simply give bonuses. If the sensor rolls itself, or allows a roll that would not be possible without it then yes.
9)security devices but not restraints
Depends on the security device and the restraint.
10) B and E gear, except crowbar (duh),miniwelder and monosaw
I'd have to look at it on a case by case basis. I actually think the saw would be a good candidate for the bonus.
11)survival gear, gasmask\hazmat gives a bonus on analyze rolls, respirator and gecko gloves gets the bonus
Again on a case by case basis. I'd say no on gecko gloves which are simply adding a bonus to climbing anyway.
12) medkit,antidote patch gets it
The Patches should for sure get it.
13)All augmentation that can be purchase as non cyberware gets the bonus, commlink, cyberdeck, olfactory booster, taste booster, datalock, ultra sound sensor, voice modulator, cyberguns
I don't think so. If the cyberware would only provide a bonus rather than a test then no.
14) all vehicles and drones
Yep.
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At least an Elf Shaman with Leadership would still be taking up their turn to do it to one person at a time, while the Machine Sprite doing it means the TM is free to do what they like. Even a normal Face who isn't giving up anything like a turn of spellcasting would still likely be giving up a shot with a pistol, which they could have decent skill in instead of buying the Leadership skill. Though we don't need to discuss when and at what degrees it would be better to assist than to just shoot...
My point is just that the fact that it takes next to nothing (no money to register, easy to summon, the sprite itself wouldn't do much else, no one is giving up potential combat-based actions) away from the TM to have a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics all the time really adds to the "Is this cheese?" feeling.
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I really don't see why this is going on so long. If someone can't see that "using" your muscles isn't the same application of using as "using" your computer, and it definitely being the second form that Diagnostics works on, then I just don't know anymore.
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ok, Ive updated my post about which items I think would get the bonus.
I will just try to explain some of those choices, specifically chameleon suit. The suits mechanics are exactly the same as smartlink. Smartlinked weapons raises the accuracy limit by 2 and when wireless is enabled gives a +2dice bonus on the skill test. Chameleon suit raises the physical limit by 2 and when wireless is enabled gives a +2dice bonus on the skill test. (I guess they went away from the perception penalty from 4ed because the players would get suspicious GM\ ok, guys roll a perception test with a minus 4 penalty \players\ oh, a minus 4 like the chameleon suit that the assassin from yesterday used? \GM\... shut up!)
All weapons are cabable of wireless, it isnt necesary for them to be smart guns, BUT I guess the sprite cant help unless the weapon has dedicated targeting software, like smartguns, because right now, giving a bonus on ejecting magz and changing fire modes is kinda moot.
Im sorry Crunch, but I still dont get your reasoning. Are you saying if I used cyber eyes with vision enhancement (a dicepool bonus), I wouldnt get the bonus, but if I used cybereyes with thermographic (no dicepool bonus) I would get a diagnostic bonus on perception rolls?
Because all a smartgun does is raising the limit and providing a dicepool bonus, just like vision enhancement. (ok, it also gives other bonusses, but no dicepool test are involved in those)
I would personally go the the opposite road, and say\ those items with a die bonus, can get the enhanced by the diagnostic bonus.
(I guess Crunch and Unahims reasoning is, if they already give a dicepool bonus, they are already "contributing to the teamwork test" and cant get another teamwork bonus on that.)
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I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer. Basically for diagnostics to apply there has to be variability (a roll) involved in the functioning of the device. There is variability in shooting a gun (you roll to hit) there is no variability to Muscle Replacement 2 (It always provides a +2 Bonus to Strength and Agility). Diagnostics can make the gun function better, but the Muscle Replacement is always assumed to function perfectly so there's nothing for the diagnostic to do.
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I get that part ;) I dont have muscle augmentation listed as a device cabable of getting the bonus, under my 14 points of items list.
But wouldyou stillsay that the chameleon suit doent benefit, while the smartgun does?(see my previous post, they essentially gives the same benifits, just on different skills and limits) or is not because the gun is a smartgun but because its sophisticated enough to be a device, smartgun or not?
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The smartgun link doesn't get the bonus, the gun does.
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Ok, now I know what you mean :) phew that took some time.
(although I think I will houserule it my way) But I atleast understand your reasoning now, and I might use it sometime in the future instead of my "houserule\interpretation"
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I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer. Basically for diagnostics to apply there has to be variability (a roll) involved in the functioning of the device. There is variability in shooting a gun (you roll to hit) there is no variability to Muscle Replacement 2 (It always provides a +2 Bonus to Strength and Agility). Diagnostics can make the gun function better, but the Muscle Replacement is always assumed to function perfectly so there's nothing for the diagnostic to do.
Best way to put it in the entire thread. Bravo to your, sir, bravo!
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Rolling to hit has absolutely squat to do with how well your gun functions. If it had anything to do with how it functioned, then different guns would gain bonuses on to-hit based on their quality. Your ability to aim-at-stuff, as represented by the dicepool being your skill and your attribute is what the diceroll is measuring. Other than your ability to aim, your gun is assumed to be functioning perfectly (except in the case of a Glitch or Critical Glitch). There is no roll to make your gun jam less or fire faster or fire straighter. Its all assumed. This is why you can pick up a revolver and it is exactly as reliable as a machine pistol and as accurate at a sniper rifle, peripherals aside.
I'd also like to point out that your method causes a metric ton of confusion.
My method is, "Is the device impacting the roll or allowing the roll? If yes, go for it. If no, then no." I don't think anyone has misunderstood that yet. Some have disagreed, yes, but no one has misunderstood. Whatever happened to Occam's Razor?
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"Does the proper functioning of the item require a roll" is just as simple.
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But the answer to that question is always no. Always. Items are assumed to be functioning properly except in the case of a glitch or critical glitch and... I think that one sniper rifle that breaks down. Moreover, you don't get a roll to use an item better.
Here's another fun one: Guns themselves aren't Electronic Devices. "The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite can assist someone using or repairing the device with a Teamwork Test." Guns are made with Armory, not Hardware, meaning if you can't run Diagnostics on the smartlink you can't get the bonuses at all.
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But the answer to that question is always no. Always. Items are assumed to be functioning properly except in the case of a glitch or critical glitch and... I think that one sniper rifle that breaks down. Moreover, you don't get a roll to use an item better.
Here's another fun one: Guns themselves aren't Electronic Devices. "The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite can assist someone using or repairing the device with a Teamwork Test." Guns are made with Armory, not Hardware, meaning if you can't run Diagnostics on the smartlink you can't get the bonuses at all.
And there's the point at which diagonostics wiggles in. And you're wrong in SR most firearms have electronic functions by default. Which skill you use to make them isn't relevant. Missles, for instance, are also made with armory, Cars are repaired with Automotive Mechanics. The B/R skill used has no impact.
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If I'm the GM, and my player is using a stealth suit to go all stealth, I can have the Stealth Suit break on a glitch or critical glitch just as easily as I can have their gun jam. If that's where diagnostics wiggles in, I'm correct.
I'm not 100% sure on the skill thing. I kind want to say that "Could you use Hardware / Software in any part or version of this?" is a good guideline, sand equipping wireless. For instance, the Pilot Program in the car could be Hardware or Software, as could the Rigger Interface or the AR controls. Coincidently, this would mean that Diagnostics does not help with full manual control. I'm okay with that. Missiles are armory, but the sensors (sold separately) they are equipped with are built with Hardware, so they're okay. Smartlinks are okay. Muscle Augmentations are not, because they are firmly in the Cybersurgery category. Same with reaction enhancers and wired reflexes and most of the other truly broken stuff. Could Diagnostic the 'soft used in Skillwires directly, but not the wires themselves. I'd give a pass on a built in smartlink, sensors, etc since they are fundamentally an Electronic Device (per the normal version), just inside your eyes.
Like, I'm not really willing to fight that point, but it does just so happen to nix most of the broken unintended side-effects from my measure.
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If [rolling to hit] had anything to do with how [your gun] functioned, then different guns would gain bonuses on to-hit based on their quality.
Improvised ranged weapons have an Accuracy of 3, and broken, old, damaged, or otherwise flawed ranged weapons can have their Accuracy reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This includes items that have been damaged through Matrix Combat.
It seems they do.
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diagnostics on a a regular firearm (not a smartgun) with wireless ON give you +1 accuracy
diagnostics on a smartgun with wireless ON give you +1 accuracy and +dice to hit
diagnostics on wired reflexes will aid you when you turn them on or off, but that normally don't require a roll anyway...
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Actually FAQ'd this. I was right and wrong. Diagnostics works largely how I said. Living Persona can't make use of a satellite or trodes, apparently, so it can't get the diagnostics bonus that way. Electronic Device is far more broad than my previous musings. Check the FAQ thread for details.
On a side note, this makes Skillwires a very lucrative investment for the Technomancer--Skillwires + Pain Editor. Stuff a Machine Sprite in your Skilljack and actually have ranks in Software. When you don't need to break limits, run the skilljack with Software. When you want to break limits, use your native Software ranks. Skillwires are also the only way I see a proper Technomancer Hacker working. And Edge becomes even more important for them.
This makes Crunch and I tied 1 vs 1 so far.
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Be very careful taking Aaron's answers as official.
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I'm confused on what exactly you're spelling out to happen with Skillwires and a Pain Editor. I think I know what you mean though... I buy a Rating 6 Skilljack and a Rating 6 Software Skillsoft-- Then I run Diagnostics to try and aim for a +6 to all Software tests while using the Skilljack, unless I need to break limits, in which case like you said, I'd need to use my real Software skill in order to use Edge. Sounds great if not that I can't stand the Fading on any of my TM's complex forms, especially not enough to jack up the Level so I could benefit from the extra dice from Diagnostics anyways. Would the +1 to Limits caused by Diagnostics apply to the Complex Forms, though? And I assume Pain Editor is just so you can take more Stun damage without caring.
Wait, Skilljack is different from Skillwires. I think you technically need the wires for Software even though it entirely mental, simply because it's "Active" and not "Knowledge" or "Language". And great-googly-moogly, Skillwires are expensive. At least assuming you'd never bother getting them at less than Rating 4.
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Put it in Skillwires or the Skilljack, whichever makes your GM happy. Its the same end result. You do need Skillwire + Skilljack in order to pull it off. Worse, you need to keep your Essence loss at 1 point or less, meaning you will eventually want it in Deltaware. This is not an "at creation" thing. Among other things, Technomancers really need to get away with Nuyen E if they can help it. Pain Editor is to eat tons of fading damage and keep going. Over-all, you're on the right track.
Oh, one important bit Crunch was right about--Jammers are your worst enemy with this strategy. If something loses the wireless bonus then it also loses the Machine Sprite. That means it isn't quite as infinite as originally planned.
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ooh nice, yeah I read it on page 25 I think.
...But does that mean according to Aaron that I can diagnose my katana and gain several bonus dices to attack?? ... that doesnt seem right. And those muscle replacements are still wireless cabable devices, so they should also work.... I think I will houserule, that one cant do that.
But the Faq thread did raise a whole new question.
I cant run diagnostics on my commlink or deck when Im using it (as the device gets merged with my persona) but I can still run diagnostics on them if I were to repair them, seems fair enough. BUT what happens if I slave the deck to my commlink? (for the good old classical firewall master stat, leaving the cyberdeck with its 3 highest ratings on attack, sleaze and response)
Is it A) I can only use one persona at a time, and therefore NOT use the cyberdeck at all, I would have to switch persona (and loosing the commlinks superior firewall ,if I wanted to hack) and not be able to gain diagnostic power on my comm\deck
or B) The commlink is my persona, and therefore cant be diagnosed. The deck is a slaved device to my commlink (gaining its firewall) and therefore shows up as a device, making it elligible for the diagnostic anyway, And I can still use it to hack with, as its a slaved device.?
B) seems like it just totally ignored the limitation put on by diagnostics, making a technomancer backed decker nasty (and using shenanigans like the commlinks superior and cheaper firewall)
I suppose I will hourerule it as A
edit: hmm I just post my last question in the Faq thread
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You couldn't use your cyberdeck to hack by using the commlink's persona and just having it as a slaved device. You're using the commlink, not the cyberdeck, so you use the commlink's stats (along with its lack of Attack and Sleaze).
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Ok, thanks firebug :)
I just saw several threads with people slaving their 200k+ deck with 6553 stats to a rating 6 commlink, giving them 6556 stats for a mere 5k. I wanted to call shenanigans, but didnt know how to back it up with RAW.
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Not only are Aaron's answers always a bit dodgy since they're not technically official, but it seems you deliberately kept your question so vague that it's doubtful he even oversaw the implications of your questions, or his answers. It would have been far better if you straight-up asked him if putting Diagnostics on your cyber-muscles would improve all your physical tests. You even muddied the "does it work on anything modifying the dice roll?" by making it a smartgun, which has a far higher chance of fooling Aaron since he -knows- that smartguns are able to be affected by it, but nobody ever said the sprite would be on the attachment. It's more likely making it into a smartgun makes it electronic, and thus it can work on the entire gun, not just on one attachment connected to it.
Also "This makes Crunch and I tied 1 vs 1 so far."? It's not a competition.
Mind, I'm not saying that you're -not- right, I'm saying that your way of phrasing the question has caused doubts about the answers.
Edit: Aaron's now confirmed it works on pretty much everything. Time to go nuts! Also time to brick Muscle Replacements, that's got to be kinda gruesome :p I wonder if enough muscles have been replaced that you'd literally choke if that happened? Interesting thought.