Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Tassyr on <09-18-13/0156:23>
-
So I just realised, sadly, that adding all the enhancements I want to say, a pair of contacts, will put me over the 12 requirement at chargen.
My question is this; if I have one set of enhancements on my contact and wear them under goggles/glasses/etc, do I get to use say, my smartlink gear on contacts and my other addons on the goggles? I couldn't see anything about this in the book.
Actually second question; how the heck do you install them aftermarket? Is there a check?
-
Yes.
-
Sweet. Though I assume two sets of the same upgrade wouldn't stack. xD
-
Contacts and two monocles :D
Heh, or the traditional contacts, glasses/goggles, and earbuds...
-
Actually I'm probably going contacts, shades and micro-transceiver. XD
-
I generally go for contact lenses and glasses, myself, but goggles aren't too bad sometimes.
-
Yes.
Could you please point out some source of information on that? There surely must have been a discussion on the forum.
Thanks in advance!)
-
you also have 1 capacity in your smartgun camera that you can use
-
Could you please point out some source of information on that? There surely must have been a discussion on the forum.
I cannot recall ever reading a debate on it but it's how I ruled it myself as well in SR4.
-
Personally I have a hard time understanding how flir vision (thermographic vision) would be able to detect heat patterns when looking at the digital display of another imaging device or the or optical lense of another optical imaging device.....
But for flare compensation? Shrug. Why not.
Once should probably rule that you can't stack any vision augmentations over multiple optical or imaging devices or that you are allowed to stack all vision augmentations over multiple optical or imaging devices.
(Personally I think you should get a "bigger" device or different devices suited for different situations rather than stacking layer after layer with contacts, glasses, goggles and a helmet visor with augmentations on top of that).
-
That's just plain silly, really. A GM would not very likely let you wear glasses/goggles/helmets combined.
-
What about cybernetic eyes with thermographic vision and other augmentations behind a pair of contacts full of augmentations plus a pair of goggles full of augmentations. Will your theromographic vision enhancement in your cybereyes work through the contacts and goggles?
Or what about having low light vision, smartlink and image link in your eyes aiming a smartgun around a corner without exposing yourself using the live camera feed from the smartgun on your augmented reality heads up display to fire at targets in poor light conditions. Will your low light vision enhance the light in the live camera feed?
Where do you draw the line. Is there a line?
-
While I agree that the system can be exploited, as a GM I'd just slap some penalties on a player trying to do contacts + monocles + glasses + goggles, say, oh, I don't know, equal to the bonus he would get...
Now, that's if the player went all out (and lets face it, some of them do); I think there are several viable options.
First of all, since "everything is wireless!!!111!11!one", it is not too unreasonable to think that some of these devices could interact with each other, as opposed to being "layer upon layer" of optics. Given this train of thought, consider the following:
1. Vision Enhancement "sharpens a character’s vision at all ranges"
2. Low-light and Thermographic Vision "allows you to see normally in light levels as low as starlight" and "enables vision in the infrared spectrum", respectively
3. Flare compensation "protects you from blinding flashes of light as well as simple glare"
4. Vision Magnification "digitally magnifies vision by up to fifty times"
5. Image Link "lets you display visual information in your field of vision" and "is what you need to truly "see" AR"
Now, with all of the above, and considering that devices can wirelessly interact, is it really that hard to imagine that a pair of contacts with vision enhancement, glasses/goggles with low-light, thermographic, and flare compensation, and an implanted image link can provide all benefits normally?
I'd say the one exception to this is using thermographic and low-light simultaneously, as they provide different bonuses and have different uses (low light vs total darkness).
That all being said, you can put ALL of the vision enhancements available in rating 4 cybereyes and supposedly get all the benefits, so why exactly is it that some of you think that somehow these devices would not be able to interact with each other if they were layered differently? Any discussion at this point is about fluff, as I see it, as the rules clearly allow you to have some vision enhancements implanted, some installed in gear, but fail to provide guidelines for what stacks...
-
Is there a line?
Yes. It's called Common Sense.
-
Where do you draw the line. Is there a line?
I draw the line at the character's eyes and a single visual aid device, whether that device is contacts, glasses, goggles, or a pair of binoculars.
My reasoning is based on my own uncomfortable experiences with things like trying to wear my prescription glasses while using anything you look through ranging from 3D glasses at the theater to microscopes... and I imagine that trying to have a similar double-changed vision that also has significant changes and information would be even more disorienting.
...and my stance that anything which uses the letter of the rules (gear only up to availability 12 at character generation, and no specific statement preventing nor enabling a given behavior) to defy the spirit of the rules (you can't have the "best" equipment at character generation, such as every visual enhancer in the book) is prohibited by default.
-
I imagine that trying to have a similar double-changed vision that also has significant changes and information would be even more disorienting.
Which is why I apply some limitations to the combination as GM. In SR4 I have a player with IL+SL Contacts and other enhancements in the glasses.
-
Is there a line?
Yes. It's called Common Sense.
One can apply common sense here only with at least a modicum of knowlegde of physics (optics?). I have zero understanding of how different vision mods and enhancements work. I have a gut feeling that thermovision can't work with optical vision magnification but that's as far as it gets.
Some people need more guidelines than "use common sense".
@Noble Drake
I like your solution! Thanks)
-
Noble Drake, you're forgetting that you CAN get Cybereyes Rating 3 at chargen (quite easily), which, with it's capacity of 12, will get you:
[2] Low-Light Vision
[3] Smartlink
[2] Thermographic Vision
[3] Vision Enhancement Rating 3
[2] Vision Magnification
The only thing missing is Flare Compensation, which you could easily install in a pair of contacts or sunglasses.
So, what were you saying about not being able to get "the best of the best" at chargen?
And again, how is having all of these vision enhancements in one cybereye AT ALL different from "wirelessly enabled devices interfacing with your PAN and displaying the information in your AR"?
Remember, Shadowrun does not = the real world. Magic and technology cannot be equated to real world physics. So, while your example of optics certainly applies, the application of the technology does not.
I could easily argue that instead of "seeing" through thermovision, the thermovision enhancement gives me an AR overlay that my brain (if image link is implanted) or eyes (if I'm wearing glasses with image link) translates. This could logically then be extended to the combining of effects, with your commlink (or image link, if that makes you feel better) doing all the necessary computing to display an AR overlay that:
Reduces glare/flash, displays gun info, provides more detail (sharpens the image), zooms the view up to 50 times, and shows me either an infrared or light-enhanced view.
Are you seriously going to tell me that you draw the line at having a computer overlay various sensor data in a format that my brain can understand, when we're talking about a world where I can mentally eject the clip from the gun installed in my cybernetic arm while running 12-18 meters per second because my hydraulic legs are super-strong and fast, or where I can fully project my consciousness into a virtual reality by having a hole drilled in my head and literally plugging myself into the machine?
If you answered yes to the above; no offense intended, man, but this is a science fiction game, emphasis on the fiction. Real world physics do not always apply...
-
Ye gods, I didn't mean to set off that much discussion, hah. I was just trying to get around the 12 availability cap. XD
Basically I put my smartlink/imagelink (Why on earth does it insist on needing both for smartguns to work? Grr. XD) on my contacts, and gave my glasses image enhancement/flare comp/vision magnification.
Basically setting my Contacts at Avail. 10R, and my glasses at 8. And it's a lot cheaper than replacing my eyes! XD
-
Noble Drake, you're forgetting that you CAN get Cybereyes Rating 3 at chargen (quite easily), which, with it's capacity of 12, will get you:
[2] Low-Light Vision
[3] Smartlink
[2] Thermographic Vision
[3] Vision Enhancement Rating 3
[2] Vision Magnification
The only thing missing is Flare Compensation, which you could easily install in a pair of contacts or sunglasses.
So, what were you saying about not being able to get "the best of the best" at chargen?
Thanks for the nitpick - I should certainly have double checked my facts (maybe even finally taking the shrink wrap off my special edition finally) before making a vague statement.
Cybereyes get a free pass from me as a "loophole" to getting around the availability cap where vision enhancers are concerned because they cost Essence, which is a much higher cost in the big picture than nuyen... not to mention that the cybereyes you mention cost twice as much as getting tricked out glasses/contacts before adding any enhancements tot hem.
And again, how is having all of these vision enhancements in one cybereye AT ALL different from "wirelessly enabled devices interfacing with your PAN and displaying the information in your AR"?
Being as both of those are incredibly ill-defined fictional things, the only answer I can give is to say that cybereyes are described in a way that implies a vision style like that shown in the various Terminator films could be an accurate example... and AR is clearly depicted in various bits of art as being more like looking at a hologram or a floating, two-dimensional monitor screen.
Remember, Shadowrun does not = the real world. Magic and technology cannot be equated to real world physics. So, while your example of optics certainly applies, the application of the technology does not.
That Shadowrun is not exactly the real world does not necessitate that we assume nothing from the real world be applicable in any case. Anywhere there is clear statement or vague implication that the SR world differs from ours, I freely let anything fly... but that isn't the case with the operation of optical devices, even though it is the case with their existence in the first place.
I could easily argue that instead of "seeing" through thermovision, the thermovision enhancement gives me an AR overlay that my brain (if image link is implanted) or eyes (if I'm wearing glasses with image link) translates. This could logically then be extended to the combining of effects, with your commlink (or image link, if that makes you feel better) doing all the necessary computing to display an AR overlay that:
Reduces glare/flash, displays gun info, provides more detail (sharpens the image), zooms the view up to 50 times, and shows me either an infrared or light-enhanced view.
You can easily argue anything you wish... that doesn't mean that I have to accept any assumptions you make, just as you have no reason to accept any of the assumptions I have made.
Are you seriously going to tell me that you draw the line at having a computer overlay various sensor data in a format that my brain can understand, when we're talking about a world where I can mentally eject the clip from the gun installed in my cybernetic arm while running 12-18 meters per second because my hydraulic legs are super-strong and fast, or where I can fully project my consciousness into a virtual reality by having a hole drilled in my head and literally plugging myself into the machine?
Absolutely. The game material does not specifically address the topic of whether your brain can translate such a complex set of overlaid sensory input - but it does expressly state that you can eject the clip, run faster, and project your consciousness into VR with the appropriate augmentations.
The difference is that I fill any blanks that the game materials leave with explanations and interpretations based on what I know in real life, rather than saying "there theoretically could be some explanation as to how this stuff works differently than the real world that I don't know, so I will just assume that to be the case."
Neither approach is wrong.
If you answered yes to the above; no offense intended, man, but this is a science fiction game, emphasis on the fiction. Real world physics do not always apply...
Not always, of course not... but since the fiction is specifically an alternate development of the real world, real world physics do apply at times. I just happen to think that real world physics apply in every case that they are not specifically contradicted by the game rules or description.
-
I'd like to point out that were you to replace the term "optical devices" from your statements with the "optical and imaging devices" used in the book, your logic of "optics cannot operate in unison" kind of goes out the table.
I obviously see (hah, pun intended) things differently than you do; imaging devices to me are more technological things (or mages wouldn't be restricted from casting spells through them, because, you know, they need to see the target, and electronics mess with that ability) rather than optics. How else do you explain 50x zoom and thermographic vision in a pair of bi-focals...
And you're welcome; I don't mind providing information where it's lacking. What you choose to do with it is obviously up to you; choosing to think of cybereyes as a loophole is entirely your business, but unlike cybereyes glasses and contacts can easily be taken away from a player, so you have to consider all the factors. The person who goes with implants are paying 0.3 essence and 32k, while the person with gear pays only 5.5k for the same things.
I would also like to point out that you make just as big of an assumption as I do when it comes to this subject; neither of us have any idea of what the developers intended in this case (which would have been nice), and so our interpretations are just that; interpretations. I'll agree to disagree, because I obviously think that technology has gotten a little further in 2075 than you do, and that's cool too.
-
I'll agree to disagree, because I obviously think that technology has gotten a little further in 2075 than you do, and that's cool too.
Yeah, I have a distinctly anachronistic view of the Shadowrun universe - I didn't take the full technological leap forward from SR3 to SR4 where the setting is concerned, and am actually going to be using SR5 mechanics attached to SR2 setting style a lot more than I'll be using the more modern elements of the SR setting... even if my stories happen to take place in the 2070s.
-
I think the simplest rule of thumb would be to only allow the bonus from the outermost "layer" of vision mods.
Unless... the device has some sort of "passthrough" mode, that allows it to "get out of the way", such as "magesight", without the myomer-encased fiber optic. That might actually be a useful piece of equipment for anyone that doesn't want to open/remove their helmet. every time they need different optics.