Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cpeerson2000 on <09-29-13/0341:23>
-
Trying to find other uses for the Arcana skill other than initiation and enchanting. There is a specialization for spell formulae but I saw no rules to make your own spells to learn them. So are there any other uses I missed in the rules? Or are we waiting on Street magic for m9re elaboration s?
-
It is a skill mostly usable by enchanters, but as you noted it is also used for initiating which make it useful for all awakened (including [physical] adepts).
You use it to recognize an alchemy preparation.
With a successful Arcana + Intuition [Mental] Test.
You use it to create your own focus formula (instead of buying it) as the first step when creating your own focus using Artificing skill.
Arcana + Magic [Astral] (Force x Force, 1 day) Extended Test if you want to research it from scratch or Arcana + Magic [Astral] (Force, 1 day) Extended Test if you translate an existing focus formula that is for another tradition than your own.
You use it for initiation
This is done with an Arcana + Intuition [Astral] (initiate grade, 1 month) Extended Test.
You also use it for designing spells and rituals, but there are currently no rules for that yet.
-
On tangent I wonder if someone could have only the Arcana skill and nothing else and working in producing spell formula, enchanting materials and alchemy without have actual spell/summoning/adept powers
-
It is linked to Magic and limited by Astral when you use it to scribble down the formula so I am pretty sure you need to have at least 1 point of magic rating to use the skill for this purpose (and you need to create or buy the talisman and you need an enchanter to create the actual focus - you have to be awakened to create the actual focus).... but you can be an Aspected Magician (Enchanter) with as low chargen priority as D. This let you create focus formula as well as creating actual focus or alchemy preparations. Combine it with Artisan skill for creating the actual talisman and you can take a spare time job as a talismonger...
(It is a bit strange that Arcana is linked to Logic in the skill chapter; when you can't default to an attribute and all it's applications either use Magic or Intuition - and not Logic).
-
Note that burning out lets you keep Arcana. Which is weird since they changed from SR4 that it's no longer available for Mundanes. But yeah, nothing says the attribute value must be greater than 0 to let you use it for creating formulae.
-
Yes, non awakened can also take the skill (it is not a restricted magic skill like alchemy or artificing etc.)
You don't need magic to have the skill.
Just that the only thing you can use it for is to recognize an alchemy preparation.
...it might or might not also be possible that you can use it to research and scribble down formula, but in that case with an attribute dice pool of zero dice... only using your arcana skill rating in the test limited by Arcana limit (which basically is just mental or social limit - whichever is higher).
To create the talisman you need Artisan skill (which also is not a restricted magic skill)
However, to create the actual focus you need to have artificing which is a restricted magic skill and only open for [full] magicians, Aspected Enchanters and Mystic Adepts.
-
Actually, Magical Skills no longer states Arcana as exception to the "must have Magic" rule.
-
(Arcana is a Logic skill, not a magic skill. Mundane characters can learn it and awakened characters keep it if they burn-out)
But being linked to Logic is not logical ;)
...since you use it with Magic (and not Logic).
Or with Intuition (and not Logic).
I can't find a single situation where you actually use Arcana as a Logic skill...
-
However I'm fond of the concept of Arcana Theorist, a person who study magic theory without be magic user and be useful producing things (formulae, alchemy concoctions, prepare telesma for enchanting and so on) and for discussing all the magic theory implication of things... will be an useful contact and an archetype we could found either in shadows but much more as wageslave
-
(Arcana is a Logic skill, not a magic skill. Mundane characters can learn it and awakened characters keep it if they burn-out)
Hm, I guess it depends on how you read it. "Magic skills are reserved for those who practice magic. In order to acquire magic-specific skills, characters must have a quality that provides a Magic rating. In order to use these skills, that Magic rating must be 1 or higher." Since it's listed under Magical Skills, I'd read it as not allowed myself, even though I think it should be. Assensing and Astral Combat are also not Magic-attribute skills but they are definitely not available to Mundanes.
-
p.89 Restricted Skills
There are some skills that cannot be used by all characters. Magic and Resonance-based skills are restricted to characters who have a Magic or Resonance attribute rating. Without the appropriate attribute, the character cannot learn or utilize these skills. These restricted skills are listed under the Magic and Resonance headings in the list of Individual Skills on p. 151.
Additionally, aspected magicians can use only one category of Magic skills (Sorcery, Conjuring, or Enchanting), while magicians and mystic adepts are able to use the whole range of skills. Deckers, even though many of their talents are similar to technomancers while in the Matrix, cannot use Resonance-based skills (namely Compiling, Decompiling, and Registering). For specifics on skill restrictions and whether a character can take a specific skill, refer to the Skills chapter (p. 128).
Magic skills listed on p.151
- Alchemy
- Banishing
- Binding
- Counterspelling
- Ritual Spellcasting
- Spellcasting
- Summoning
- Enchanting
- Disenchanting
(no arcana, astral combat or assensing in this list).
Resonance skills listed on p.151
- Compiling
- Decompiling
- Registering
However, p.142 "Magical Skills" state:
Magic skills are reserved for those who practice magic. In order to acquire magic-specific skills, characters must have a quality that provides a Magic rating. In order to use these skills, that Magic rating must be 1 or higher. Please visit Magic, p. 276, for all your Magical skill-using needs.
And in this list we have
- Alchemy (Magic)
- Arcana (Logic)
- Artificing (Magic)
- Assensing (Intuition)
- Astral Combat (Willpower)
- Banishing (Magic)
- Binding (Magic)
- Counterspelling (Magic)
- Disenchanting (Magic)
- Ritual Spellcasting (Magic)
- Spellcasting (Magic)
- Summoning (Magic)
And Resonance Skills on p.143 state:
Resonance skills are a unique subset of Matrix skills that can only be used by technomancers. Resonance skills, like magic skills, require the character to have a special attribute. The Resonance attribute also serves as the linked attribute for all of the skills.
- Compiling (Resonance)
- Decompiling (Resonance)
- Registering (Resonance)
Look like we have a case for errata here.
-
Especially given Astral Combat not stating it requires Astral Perception/Projection in the skills info, unlike Assensing.
-
True :)
(but it does say you use it when fighting in Astral Space, and Astral Combat on p.315 explains specifics about astral combat while Astrally perceiving or Astrally projecting)
Hate that you have to jump all over the book to get a clear view of what rules that actually apply or not. This is not the only example
-
Refence books often list materail in an order of precedence in reference to a single given rule. So find the original reference and you'll find the order.
Which is completely up to the authors.
-
I would have found it more logical if if Restricted Skills on p.89 had listed Arcana, Astral Combat and Assensing (or at least pointed at "Magic skills" and "Resonance skills" at p.142 and p.143 instead of skills with magic and resonance as attributes on the table at p.151).
- Or maybe p.89 with it's reference to the table on p.151 is correct and mundane characters can learn Arcana after all??
If p.142 would not use the phrase quality that provide Magic rating
- Since being awakened no longer is a quality as it was in SR4.
That the description of the Arcana skill on p.142 didn't list specializations in Spell Design and Spirit Formula
- And then conveniently choose to leave out rules how to design spells or create spirit formulas.
p.142 state that you need at least magic rating 1 to use magic skills (this is right before it list Arcana as a magic skill) and then on p.278 it state that all active magic skills are converted to knowledge skills if you burn out - except for Arcana.
- So can you use it with a magic rating of null or not...? :)
That if you say that Arcana is Logic skill that you at least provide one test in the entire book that use Arcana together with Logic
- Instead of just providing tests that only involve Intuition and Magic (not a single case where you use it with Logic).
To figure out if a mundane character can use Arcana you need to read p.89, p.142, p.151 and p.278. And after you done that you are still not sure if the skill is restricted for mundane characters or if a burnout character still can use it while having a magic rating of null...
-
Seems to me something amiss here and on purpose, probably is one of those things filled by Magic splat
-
Pg 89 covers restricted skills and it pretty much sounds like you have to have the appropriate attributes to use them aka magic or resonance.
-
To be entirely honest, I always viewed Arcana as the practical skill to understand magic. Not Magic Theory, which is WAGs galore, and spouts things like the Unified Magic Theory without any proofs being done. Or, in another terms, Arcana is the engineering version of magic(how it actually works), while Magic Theory is the social science version of magic(how it should be working).
What Theory ignores is that belief is a very core thing for any magician to have. It is their belief that shapes the magic, and enables them to summon the spirits they summon. From what I've read, the Unified Magic Theory says anyone can summon any spirit. Arcana says that if you don't believe in it, you ain't gonna summon it. But it lets you write out the formula for somebody who does believe in it. Alchemy is actually a logical outgrowth from Enchanting using the Arcana skill to figure it out and develop it.
-
Arcana really should be logic based across the board. It's a study of magic skill, which ties it to logic. And besides give hermetics like 1 thing they are better at magic wise. Charisma is all over the place in the magic section, logic is pretty much no where.
-
I don't think it should be in Initiation, but the rest I agree.
-
maybe there should be an arcana test that actually link arcana to logic then.
there are currently only 4 different tests you can do with arcana -and they are all linked to intuition or magic....
-
maybe there should be an arcana test that actually link arcana to logic then.
there are currently only 4 different tests you can do with arcana -and they are all linked to intuition or magic....
Yup, currently everything is intuition or magic under arcana. I think all of those should be logic, though I can concede initiation as that is pretty important. The magic chapter reads like it was written by a Shaman fanatic who really does not like hermetics. Every place where logic could be the stat they take it away and put it as magic, or higher of the two social or mental limit etc. Yet, # of spirits bound, pushing through barriers etc all can be tied to charisma. The summoning chapter makes hermetics come across as slavers while shamans are all around awesome guys. I play Shamans so up yeah for me, but I GM mostly and my players are more hermetic when they play mages and they are like WTF?
-
Looks like I'm going to be using the Common Sense Rule if I'm running this edition. If the rule makes me go "WTF?" I change it to make more sense. Because research has practically nothing to do with Magic, and quite a lot to do with Logic.