Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Rotor on <10-04-13/1551:56>
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I've reread the text about maglocks (p363) several times but I'm still not sure about the answer to my question. Can you always bypass a maglock by opening the case and tinkering with the electronics or does it work only for card readers and keypads and not, for example, with a print scanner? Thanks!
ah, and a subsidiary question, can you hack the fingerprints of a person by reading the SIN in his/her commlink? re-thanks!
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For the first part, yes you can bypass all the lock types by breaking open the case and tinkering. You are basically going past the security verification system and access the door lock directly at that point so it doesn't matter what type of system it is.
For the second part, yes you could get someone's finger prints from the SIN registry but that would be a hell of a hack and I think the assumption is that even though the data is stored on your commlink, it is as well encrypted there as it is in the central registries. So theoretically you can do it but from a practical standpoint, the encryption is supposed to be too hard for mere PCs to deal with.
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The entry doesnt indicate that you need tools to bypass a maglock. Am I to assume you dont need any?
If you do, do you need maglock specific tools? Or as electronic devices woukd that fall under hardware tools?
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Info on security is well hidden; check out the GM Advice section, page 363.
An electronics kit is only needed to bypass transponder-embedded keys. Maglocks do not seem to require kits of any kind to defeat, but various tools can be used against some of the more advanced ones (sequencers, keycard copiers, retinal duplication, etc etc).
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Thought sequencers, keycard copiers, retinal duplication, etc was used instead of locksmith skill?
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Xenon Correct, but all of those things are technically optional and "can" be used instead of the skill as per page 363 and 364.
Key locks:
"Defeating a key lock requires a Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Lock Rating, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test. Autopickers (p. 447) add their Rating in dice to this test; their Rating may also be used in place of Locksmith skill."
Transponder-embedded keys:
"In order to pick such a lock by hand, an electronics kit is needed to generate the appropriate electrical characteristics. This requires a successful Hardware + Logic [Mental] (Lock Rating, 1 minute) Extended Test at the same time the lock is picked."
You also get a -2 dice pool modifier if you're the same person cracking it.
Maglocks:
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test to open the case, or smash it off, same test to reassemble afterwards
Anti-tamper systems:
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (anti-tamper system rating) Test
Keypads:
Open case as per above, then Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
"A maglock sequencer (see p. 448) may also be used instead; make an Opposed Test between the sequencer and maglock ratings. If the sequencer wins, the maglock opens."
Note that the sequencer "can" be used, but you still have to open the case using locksmith or brute force.
Cardreaders:
Same as keypads, but you can use a maglock passkey to "make an Opposed Test between the passkey/forged keycard rating and the maglock rating. If the passkey/forged keycard wins, the maglock opens."
Print scanners:
While not explicitly stated, presumably can be bypassed in the same way as other maglocks, but other methods exist.
"If a fake print is used, make an Opposed Test between the duplicate and the maglock rating; if the fake wins, the maglock accepts it."
Voice recognition systems:
This is where the meat is, because the text explicitly states that
"Characters can only defeat voice recognition systems by “speaking” with the voice of an approved user—by using a recording, some other simulation, or the real voice."
So this system cannot be defeated using conventional tools.
Breath, cellular, and DNA scanners:
Same as voice recognition; " In order to fool such a system, you need a sample of the correct genetic material, preserved in a specially formulated enzyme bath. The enzyme bath can be synthesized in a chemistry shop with a Chemistry + Logic (5, 1 hour) Extended Test."
Facial Recognition:
"Prosthetic makeup and biosculpting can be used with varying degrees of effectiveness against facial recognition; make an Opposed Test pitting Disguise + Intuition [Mental] against the Device rating. Apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the character if the system is picking the disguised character out of a crowd."
Again, no locksmith test, requiring Disguise skill.
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Voice recognition systems:
This is where the meat is, because the text explicitly states that
"Characters can only defeat voice recognition systems by “speaking” with the voice of an approved user—by using a recording, some other simulation, or the real voice."
So this system cannot be defeated using conventional tools.
Voice Recognition is is a specialization of Locksmith (p. 145), so you've got to be able to roll the skill.
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Heh, that's hilarious, Kincaid, because the rules makes no mention of defeating a Voice Recognition system with conventional means.
"An Opposed Test must be made between the voice recognition system and the equipment used to bypass it; whichever generates more hits, wins."
Perhaps the intention is to roll Locksmith as the skill?
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Heh, that's hilarious, Kincaid, because the rules makes no mention of defeating a Voice Recognition system with conventional means.
"An Opposed Test must be made between the voice recognition system and the equipment used to bypass it; whichever generates more hits, wins."
Perhaps the intention is to roll Locksmith as the skill?
I actually prefer your breakdown of how each type of lock is defeated, but I'm trying to make my SRM character competent at opening any and all locks, so I pointed that out as a possible sticking point. From a design standpoint, maybe Locksmith is universally useful against all types of locks but for groups without a locksmith, each lock requires a different type of gear to overcome? Obviously, there may be instances in which popping open the housing isn't an option, so you're going to need a dna sample or whatnot.
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No, I agree with you, Kincaid. It should be possible to bypass any lock with the Locksmith skill alone, as long as you can get to the guts. I think one of the problems is that the Maglock entry fails to account for the second step, which I believe is part of an errata question somewhere.
"The first step to bypassing a maglock is to remove the case and access the maglock’s electronic guts."
And then no second step is listed, unless the following paragraphs is supposed to be the secondary steps.
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No, I agree with you, Kincaid. It should be possible to bypass any lock with the Locksmith skill alone, as long as you can get to the guts. I think one of the problems is that the Maglock entry fails to account for the second step, which I believe is part of an errata question somewhere.
"The first step to bypassing a maglock is to remove the case and access the maglock’s electronic guts."
And then no second step is listed, unless the following paragraphs is supposed to be the secondary steps.
Im pretty sure the paragraph lists two locksmith tests. The first, just to open the case, and the second to frag with the lock.
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Emil_Barr No, there is no second step. The second test you're thinking of is to disable the anti-tamper mechanism, if present.
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Im pretty sure the paragraph lists two locksmith tests. The first, just to open the case, and the second to frag with the lock.
i think that was hardware skill under SR4a. one test to get the case off, one to do the hard work.
either way, i read it that you should be able to defeat the electronics either by hacking the lock, or by using locksmith/hardware/special tools to bypass it
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Emil_Barr No, there is no second step. The second test you're thinking of is to disable the anti-tamper mechanism, if present.
One of my players pointed out that one possible reading of all this (and it's a bit of a mess) is there's no such thing as a generic maglock, but rather everything is a "keypad maglock," "passkey maglock," and so forth. This makes sense to the extent that I don't have an answer to question, "What does an authorized user do to open a generic maglock that isn't specified by one of the subtypes?" So the first step is cracking open the case and then the second step depends on the type of lock (use a sequencer or roll Locksmith a second time, etc.)
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Kincaid That would be my interpretation as well under the current rules.
It makes sense that a maglock needs some sort of key or authentication method to work, though it could have been spelled out better in the rules (listing a first step without listing subsequent ones is just rude ;) )
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I've reread the text about maglocks (p363) several times but I'm still not sure about the answer to my question. Can you always bypass a maglock by opening the case and tinkering with the electronics or does it work only for card readers and keypads and not, for example, with a print scanner? Thanks!
ah, and a subsidiary question, can you hack the fingerprints of a person by reading the SIN in his/her commlink? re-thanks!
(Boy do I HATE maglocks as they are written as to how they really work, and are wired. But they have to be this way....**)
As written, no you don't need any tools to bypass most maglocks. but they help (see tools section). it's done this way so a simple armored door doesn't spoil a shadowrun :P
maglocks (Magnetic locks). use electro magnets to hold the door in place, you can pop the hinges on the door and it will still hold fast. For the top of the line ones, you have to cut a hole in the door to bypass them! The security access port (this would be the keyreader, facial/hand/thumb/retina scanner, etc) has no direct control of the door at all, it just sends signals to a PLC. The PLC reads the inputs and decides if it is valid, IF it is, it sends a signal down a different electrical branch to the Transformer PLC, which sends a signal to the door's electromagnet to de-energise, thus releasing the door. There is an all of 3 wires. a signal, a neutral/ground*, and a hot**)
There is no way to bypass a today's good maglock door from the portal itself. they are designed that way.
* Not needed if it is a Solid state device. the Signal wire will provide this function.
** Not needed if it is a Solid State device. The Signal wire will provide this function.
I've set up magnetic doors in everything from gas stations to nuclear power planets, to biologic departments at hospitals..... and I mean doing everything from the frame up. (running the wire, installing the transformers, the magnet system, the Sensor, the control wires, the PLC, the power to the PLC and everything electrical and control in between.)
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I'm not sure if this still applies, but it used to be that you needed special means to get around a voice recog. system. The fact that it's listed as a lockpicking specialty seems to indicate this is no longer the case, but perhaps it's a typo. The idea used to be is that they are extremely rare and meant to be a pain in the ass for runners to get around. Many runner groups I've seen are completely unprepared for voice recog systems as they were written under the old rules.
A few ways they could be gotten around:
1. Voice of an actual authorized user.
2. A recording of an authorized user using an audio deck. The quality of the audio deck is tested versus the lock.
3. An Adept using Voice Control power
Voice Control power is still able to be used against voice recog. in SR5. Pg. 311. "If you use this trick to fool a person or a voice recognition system, make an Opposed Test using your Impersonation + Charisma [Mental] against the voice recognition system's rating X 2, or against the Perception + Intuition of characters the adept is trying to fool, adding the level of this power as a bonus to your dice pool."
Weird. Reading the security area, it reads much like the old rules for the more exotic lock types like voice recog. It seems to indicate there that you have to do certain things other than lockpicking to get by them, just like it use to be. There being a specialization for voice recog systems kind of confuses the issue. Until I know some official ruling on the matter I'll probaly just do it the old way, as it makes more interesting security problems to get around.
A key line on pg. 364 SR5 "Characters can only defeat voice recognition systems by "speaking" with the voice an approved user-by using a recording, some other simulation, or the real voice."
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Not to be a contrarian but aren't we forgetting the fact that most maglocks with a keycard or similar authentication feature require a matrix connection on some level? I'm just bringing this up as a legitimate, and quite useful, strategy is to hack whatever security measures they have set up and fool the door into letting you in.
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Not to be a contrarian but aren't we forgetting the fact that most maglocks with a keycard or similar authentication feature require a matrix connection on some level? I'm just bringing this up as a legitimate, and quite useful, strategy is to hack whatever security measures they have set up and fool the door into letting you in.
It's not required, but it's certainly a possible route. A decker could edit the file of approved keycards to include one the PCs already have.
A key line on pg. 364 SR5 "Characters can only defeat voice recognition systems by "speaking" with the voice an approved user-by using a recording, some other simulation, or the real voice."
And here's where we learn the value of a copy editor. Contrast that sentence with, "The first step to bypassing a maglock..." (p. 363). This makes clear (well, in a "by the rules of the English language" way, not in the "this is what every reasonable reader will come away with" way), that bypassing a maglock is always a 2-step (or more) process. To consolidate my readings:
1. There's no such thing as a generic maglock. All maglocks specify the means of entry (keypad, voice recognition, etc.)
2. Assuming it's on the Matrix, all maglocks can be overcome by a decker. I'm also assuming once the rigger book is out and CCSS riggers (eqv.) get more rules, riggers will be handy here too. As it stands now, there's no practical way for a rigger to generate marks, aside from also being a decker.
3. Given that overcoming a maglock is a 2-step process, Locksmith is rolled for both these steps (pop the case, mess with the guts).
4. There are pieces of gear that replace the 2-step process for groups without a Locksmith who do their legwork. Walking up to a voice authenticator and using a recording is a one-step process, obviously, and exists outside of the rules I cited from page 363. Sequencers are sort of an exception here since they require step one (pop the case). If you're already rolling Locksmith to pop the case, there's no point to having the sequencer. If you're the "shoot the case off" type, then a sequencer makes sense.
5. I expect (and barring an official ruling, will GM) that shooting off the case with anti-tamper circuits will automatically trigger the alarm.
6. Locksmith is very handy, but by no means a cure-all. The three guards standing next to the door will probably notice if you pop open the case and start messing with the wires. Legwork, people! Find a disgruntled ex-employee, buy him dinner, find out about the types of locks used.
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can't believe a pink mohawk player hasn't popped up and suggested demolition skill yet :-)
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You don't need to be a pink mohawk player for that, Csjarrat. All it takes is a miniwelder...
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Or a well placed HE grenade. I gotta wonder if the new Advanced Demolitions rules will be less mathmatical than the old ones. I hated that I had to teach myself advanced arithmetic just to play a game. But damnit, I figured it out.
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If you want to get really crazy with maglocks (and don't care in the slightest about life safety concerns), they can be set to be sprung closed, with the magnet pulling the bolt back to release the door. Then the simple expedient of current the power conduit running into the door doesn't bypass the lock.
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If you want to get really crazy with maglocks (and don't care in the slightest about life safety concerns), they can be set to be sprung closed, with the magnet pulling the bolt back to release the door. Then the simple expedient of current the power conduit running into the door doesn't bypass the lock.
Real life magnetic locks don't have a bolt per say... it is usually the entire door frame that is used as a magnet in conjunction with a metal door. Which is why magnetic doors are almost impossible to force open.
but again, this is where we have to seperate reality from fiction to have a good story :D