Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Slippery_Chicken on <10-04-13/2353:35>
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This is a relatively simple question; If a character hits zero essence, then loses more to cyber-enhancements, what happens? Can a nonmagical character simply load up on unlimited cyberware and basically turn into a robot? Or does one become an NPC after hitting zero essence? Can one have a negative essence score?
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if you hit zero essence, you die. Zero essence is a corpse, negative essence is purely the realm of cyberzombies.
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if you hit zero essence, you die. Zero essence is a corpse, negative essence is purely the realm of cyberzombies.
Can I get a page number on that? I wasn't able to find anything to that effect.
Also, this is about 5th edition, if that helps. Just changed the title to reflect that.
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Doesn't matter what edition it is, zero essence is always fatal. That's true throughout the fiction and the mechanics. It's not outright stated in the 'Essence' section, kind of like how they forgot to mention that filling up the Stun monitor knocks you unconscious, but that's the way it works. The lowest essence you can hit without dying is 0.001, and you're pretty far into cyber-psychosis by then.
But if you want an exact quote to support this, check out page 387, in the Essence drain power.
If a target character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies.
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SR5 RAI = In all previous editions hitting 0 essence and you die or turn into a cyber zombie GM controlled NPC.
SR5 RAW = 6.0 Essence act as a limit to how much augmentations you can get. No mention that you would die if you hit null essence from buying augmentations. Only that you can not buy more augmentations than you got essence.
Infection critter power (think vampires) can only pass on the infection on a target that are drained to zero essence and a target that is drained to zero essence "die". After 24 hours the target raise as a GM controlled NPC critter with 1 essence and will be desperate to feed to get more essence.
Aaron's response was pretty much that he would be very surprised if you can have zero essence in this edition, but that he would check with developers if it changed in this edition.
A lot of things got simply simpler in this edition. Having 6.0 essence as a hard limit for augmentations and not dying if you get augmentations down to 0.0 essence might or might not be intended. The rule text actually does not say and should be in an errata (IF it is wrong that is, if you DON'T die then RAW make perfect sense not mentioning death by augmentation).
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A lot of things got simply in this edition.
Hilariously, I think you forgot the word "missed", or perhaps "forgotten".
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A lot of things got simply in this edition.
Hilariously, I think you forgot the word "missed", or perhaps "forgotten".
Nah. They simplified a lot of game mechanics.
But yes, they also missed and forgot a lot of things.
They also introduced ambiguous rules that is in desperate need of clarification on every second page or so.
If it helps, personally I think 0.0 essence = death or you turn into GM controlled cyberzombie.
- But there is nothing in the rules about it.
Not even in the quick starter (which is the only place you find any rules about what happens if you fill your stun condition monitor).
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Nah. They simplified a lot of game mechanics.
Ah, so you meant "simpler" - not as self-demonstrating, I suppose.
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If it helps, personally I think 0.0 essence = death or you turn into GM controlled cyberzombie.
- But there is nothing in the rules about it.
The word "cyberzombie" doesn't even appear in the book, nor is there any fluff to support the idea.
Where does it say you can't take more augmentations than you have Essence for?
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Cyberzombies are extended core in SR4, will likely be in SR5 as well.
"If you get too far, whatever animated you is going to disappear, until all the gear you bought just collapses and becomes indistinguishable from any other pile of silicon, steel, and chrome."
"Each character starts with an Essence rating of 6, and it acts as a cap on the amount of alterations you can adopt."
"If a target character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies."
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If it helps, personally I think 0.0 essence = death or you turn into GM controlled cyberzombie.
- But there is nothing in the rules about it.
The word "cyberzombie" doesn't even appear in the book, nor is there any fluff to support the idea.
Where does it say you can't take more augmentations than you have Essence for?
you have to remember, that even though the edition changed, all the old canon is still there..... so until the new extended core books come out, anything and everything that is in the previous edition still holds true (unless it directly conflicts with rules/fluff in the SR5 CB).
yes that means you will have to do some work converting some stuff, but it is still useable...
For Cyberzombies the important thing to remember is that at 0 or less essence, you are DEAD (D...E...D!!!! DEAD!!!!) it is only the use of complex, expensive and powerful magical rituals is your soul bound to your body.... for a time. Even CyberZombies eventually turn to piles of goo as tumors and cancers eat away at any fleshy bits the cyber zombie still has. (life expectancy is in the months to weeks, depending on how deep down the essence hole you go!)
Cyber Zombies are totally in the realm of GM tool box only.... and not meant to be a playable option for PCs.
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Where does it say you can't take more augmentations than you have Essence for?
Where does it say you can't buy more gear than you have nuyen for? Where does it say you can't buy more skills than you have points/karma for?
Essence is a finite resource. Barring utter nastiness (cyberzombies), you drop down to 0 Essence, you're dead. Period.
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"If a target character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies."
To be fair, that is about about was vampires and similar critters do, which might conceivably be different to what regular cyberware does. By RAW there is indeed nothing explicitly saying "at 0 you're dead, or worse", although it seems obvious that they intended to keep it the old way.
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Except for the two other lines. And yes, there's no 100% RAW, but RAI is clear.
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Simple math terms
Essence must be greater 0 or >0 for the mathleets
0.000000000000000000000000000....01 is technically ok
=<0 your an NPC cyber zombie.
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Simple math terms
Essence must be greater 0 or >0 for the mathleets
0.000000000000000000000000000....01 is technically ok
=<0 your an NPC cyber zombie.
true.
But after some number crunching (4th edition) I think the LOWEST I could get to (through delta ware and cultured bioware) was .003
which is far closer to "I am a talking computer, not a human being" then most players can express :P
which lead to some interesting conversations in my game when the players decided to "free and teach" the cyberzombie, instead of blowing it to pieces like the Johnson wanted. :P
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With Deltaware, Cultured and Compatibility I think you can perhaps work it out to 0.0005. I'd have to try to mess around to be sure.
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With Deltaware, Cultured and Compatibility I think you can perhaps work it out to 0.0005. I'd have to try to mess around to be sure.
hmmm don't think Compatibility was used last time (don't recall)....
fast way to do it, find the smallest piece of ware, apply bonuses, see where you end up...
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From a social perspective we have used very low essence as a automatic disadvantage causing difficult social skills as the player is having more and more difficulty thinking in terms of the physical world. Sinking deeper into a disassociation of man and machine. Long term this gives an effective time limit on character before they permanently into an NPC.
The other thing to consider is facing an essence draining creature could kill most low essence pcs with a single hit
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Low essence have a [slight] negative impact on your social limit.
Does not seem as if low essence in SR5 is as "bad" as it used to be in earlier editions.
(which is why 0 essence is more of a limit on how much augmentations you can install, not when you die).
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Would assume 0 is death outside of a cyberzombie ritual as are all the later editions.
In 1st edition 0 essence was ok, less than zero was death.
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Low essence have a [slight] negative impact on your social limit.
Does not seem as if low essence in SR5 is as "bad" as it used to be in earlier editions.
(which is why 0 essence is more of a limit on how much augmentations you can install, not when you die).
This is what I thought too. Why would you die from having too many augments?
Also, do people with cochlear implants, synthetic limbs, and pacemakers IRL suddenly become "less human" as a result?
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It's a game balance mechanic, it's not getting into metaphysical stuff here :)
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Low essence have a [slight] negative impact on your social limit.
Does not seem as if low essence in SR5 is as "bad" as it used to be in earlier editions.
(which is why 0 essence is more of a limit on how much augmentations you can install, not when you die).
This is what I thought too. Why would you die from having too many augments?
Also, do people with cochlear implants, synthetic limbs, and pacemakers IRL suddenly become "less human" as a result?
Those are NOT a feasible analogy. Cochlear implants are less than a cyberear (0.2 Essence), modern prosthetics aren't remotely on the order of SR's cyberlimbs (no, not even the current most advanced prototypes), pacemakers are even less intensive than either of those...
First, your system can only take so much. Each implant, to a degree dependent on the extent to which it must integrate with your body, places a certain degree of physiological stress on your body. Second, there is a psychological effect in the world of SR that cause people with augmentations to FEEL less human, which then creates the reality of their behaviour. Third, your "soul" or "life force" or whatever is a real thing in Shadowrun, and it is eaten away by 'ware, amongst other things - what the hell do you think happens when it's all gone?
While it's surprising that it isn't explicitly said, do note that every single case in the text dealing with an Essence score of 0 results in death - the kindest variant offering Body+Willpower days. At a certain point, attempting to argue that being at 0 Essence doesn't kill you becomes munchkinism.
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Those are NOT a feasible analogy. Cochlear implants are less than a cyberear (0.2 Essence), modern prosthetics aren't remotely on the order of SR's cyberlimbs (no, not even the current most advanced prototypes), pacemakers are even less intensive than either of those...
Though, if a person knows you have the first two, there is a decently high chance that they won't be as comfortable around you.
While it's surprising that it isn't explicitly said, do note that every single case in the text dealing with an Essence score of 0 results in death - the kindest variant offering Body+Willpower days. At a certain point, attempting to argue that being at 0 Essence doesn't kill you becomes munchkinism.
This is pretty much how I'm seeing the entire argument...
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Just kinda strange that there is not more negative effects of losing essence than a [slightly] lower social limit.
Lost 3 essence = -1 social limit
Lost 5.99 essence = -2 social limit
Lost 6 essence = certain death :o
I think they could have added some more drawbacks along the way.
There is no sense of "danger" when installing more augmentations.
For example the Weak immune system negative quality (SR5, p.87) state:
...A Weak Immune System often results from immune-suppression treatments used in cybersurgery and bio-genetic procedures, so it is reasonable to believe that characters that have undergone extensive body modifications are more likely to acquire this quality.
Maybe each lost point of essence could have a chance your immune system is weakened.
In previous editions there was a lot of fluff that loss of essence due to augmentations made you more and more machine than human (think social skills equal to a T-800 Terminator). Maybe social limit should be lowered by 1 point for each full point of essence spend on augmentations (with a minimum of social limit 1).
Stuff like that...... Shrug.
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I think they could have added some more drawbacks along the way.
There is no sense of "danger" when installing more augmentations.
Cyberpsychosis was extended core in SR4, same will likely be true in SR5.
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It also only really mattered at less than 1 Essence, no consequences above that. Now they added the Social Limit role to add a downside.
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Also, don't forget that Essence comes into play whenever magical healing is being tossed around.
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Just kinda strange that there is not more negative effects of losing essence than a [slightly] lower social limit.
Lost 3 essence = -1 social limit
Lost 5.99 essence = -2 social limit
Lost 6 essence = certain death :o
I think they could have added some more drawbacks along the way.
There is no sense of "danger" when installing more augmentations.
Lost 3 essence = -3 dice pool mod on health spells cast on you
Lost 5 essence = -5 dice pool mod on health spells cast on you
MHO, they already have a increased sense of danger/drawbacks as your ESS drops via the P.287-288 "low-essence" health spell thing. Harder to heal, cure disease, and buff with "increase" spells.
EDIT: Mirikon beat me to it. :)
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if you want to go true old school for limitations on social tests for the augmented...
SR 1e
for every point of essence below 5, you lost a whole 1 die. except for intimidation where you gained a 1 die.
which doesn't sound like much until you realise the drastic changes to the rules that have happened from then to now.
Floating target numbers,
odd ways to count successes (6L3, 9M2, 10S4, 20d1, starting to ring some bells??),
heck, even the all the base mechanics were different.
(skills, attribute points, magic/matrix/combat dice pools, GOOD karma, BAD karma, Karma total)
if you don't remember the old, old, old, old, old, system.... be happy.
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Just kinda strange that there is not more negative effects of losing essence than a [slightly] lower social limit.
Lost 3 essence = -1 social limit
Lost 5.99 essence = -2 social limit
Lost 6 essence = certain death :o
I think they could have added some more drawbacks along the way.
There is no sense of "danger" when installing more augmentations.
Lost 3 essence = -3 dice pool mod on health spells cast on you
Lost 5 essence = -5 dice pool mod on health spells cast on you
MHO, they already have a increased sense of danger/drawbacks as your ESS drops via the P.287-288 "low-essence" health spell thing. Harder to heal, cure disease, and buff with "increase" spells.
EDIT: Mirikon beat me to it. :)
yea, there reaches a point where the Sammy shouts "Heal me now please" and the mage takes one look at the Sammy.... and either falls on the floor laughing, or just stun bolts him to pre-empt the whining when he refuses.
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just to necro this, and it is from SR3, not SR5 but on page 41 (bottom right corner in the Attributes section) it says:
Under basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die.
Which is pretty cut-and-dried. Like your corpse in the morgue after you flat-line on the surgery table.
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Yeah, they forgot to explicitly state it in some editions, but it still counts, as Essence Drain makes clear.