Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-31-13/1432:00>
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One problem I'm trying to get my head around is the negative quality "Corporate SIN" being worth 25 karma.
First of all, I assume it describes a character who is still in the employ of a MegaCorp in a trusted position as his day job while he moonlights as a Shadowrunner. Such a risk might justify the 25 point 'drawback', but still I'm not sure.
However I have 2 characters who are using a runaway background with the quality; they are definitely not still in the employ of their respective corps.
So what does the "Corporate SIN" drawback actually mean in play? If you look at the 25 pt Addiction or 25pt Allergy you have some severe, even crippling effects. A 25 point Corp SIN essentially means nothing, unless/until your corp in question finds you again.
I don't see any way to represent the effect of the drawback except to treat it as "Dead Man Walking". Eventually Lone Star will get a fingerprint or DNA sample and run it against the SIN registry. Sure, they may not know you're a 'highborn' Corporate SINner, but they will instead see an APB/Extradiction order for that individual. It is only a matter of time until the Corp has the local fuzz hand them over, or they have a team kidnap the PC, or the PC learns that his current location has been discovered and he needs to GTFO to a new sprawl. Or of course there's the possibility of a sniper's bullet out of the blue. Doesn't matter if the PC is killed or not, all of these inevitable outcomes involve the player making a new PC.
I'm not a fan of feast/famine drawbacks... especially not one worth 25 points. Doubly so if the entire party is threatened (rather than just the PC with the drawback) when it is triggered. Triply so if the player knows that so much as being questioned down at the local precint is tantamount to death, and predictably prefers to draw the entire party into fights to the death with the cops rather than ever accepting being handcuffed.
What are the techniques that people use to make the drawback be worth 25 points? Honestly I’m thinking of just treating them like reskinnned Criminal SINs and make them only worth 10 points.
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Typically for a runaway on a full Corporate SIN I have the characters take Criminal SIN instead. In my games a Corporate SIN represents an active connection with the corp (even if it's as a reitree or dependent).
The drawbacks of a Corporate SIN in my game-
1) If you anger the corp the SIN can be taken away. In game this would require paying off the quality or taking new negatives to compensate.
2) The corporation has extensive records on you including history, habits and biometrics. The corporation is REALLY unlikely to share this information with anyone outside the corporation. Remember that if you have an Evo SIN Lone Star is a rival corporation, EVO's not going to hand over the information to a rival corp without a compelling reason.
3) Anyone who does research on you has a chance of discovering that you're connected with the corp. The assumption will likely be that you're working for corporate security undercover.
4) Somewhere there's a corporate Security guy whose job is to check up on you for your own good. He has access to those detailed records and can locate your SIN in real time. If he CAN'T find your SIN he'll assume something is wrong and start looking.
5) You either have to pay taxes, or launder your money (which cooincidentally costs exactly the same as taxes). You may have to spend some time maintaining the facade of a corporate life.
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First of all, I assume it describes a character who is still in the employ of a MegaCorp in a trusted position as his day job while he moonlights as a Shadowrunner. Such a risk might justify the 25 point 'drawback', but still I'm not sure.
You did read the quality description, right? Because that's not what it says.
According to the book, with a Corporate SIN (or a Corporate Born SIN, to be precise), the character was born a citizen of a megacorp, which unlike a Corporate Limited SIN allows you to rise to the higher echelons, but kicked to the streets due to some sort of scandal. Basically, it's like you've been kicked out of your country, but you're still officially a citizen there, only worse. This gives you a number of complications:
- You're in the Global SIN Registry, which means you can be identified by law enforcement if you leave any biometrics (although they won't know you're a corpie.
- Your former corp still feels it owns you, so you pay 10% income tax to them.
- If people find out, well...
In the shadows a SIN that had been the key to opportunity is now a deadly liability. Most in the shadows see the Corporate Born as the privileged few, the aristocrats in the armored limousines who look down on them, oppress them, exploit them and deny them their basic rights. If the SINless discover the character’s Corporate Born SIN, reactions will range from deep suspicion to violent hostility; serious injury and death are real possibilities. The character’s loyalty to his corporation is never questioned, which can be an insurmountable liability in a culture that works against the megacorps. Would-be runners have been killed for holding Corporate Born SINs.
So people finding out you're a Corporate Born SINner is pretty much on par with that Extreme Allergy: severely hazardous to your health, and likely to kill you.
So no, there's no warrant out for your arrest, but the character will have some downsides, and will have to be very careful not to let people find out.
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I did. That's why I specified "in my games."
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I did. That's why I specified "in my games."
I wasn't quoting you. I was explaining to Stainless Steel Devil Rat that his assumption about the rulebook description was wrong.
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Ah sorry.
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I did. That's why I specified "in my games."
I wasn't quoting you. I was explaining to Stainless Steel Devil Rat that his assumption about the rulebook description was wrong.
My assumption was perhaps a stretch, but a stretch based on game mechanics. A 25 point drawback must be equally sucky as every other 25 point drawback, or else the game mechanic is imbalanced. Making runaways be a 10 point drawback (reskinned Criminal SIN) was only a thought I was having, as I find it preferable not to just arbitrarily remove a character from the campaign to satisfy a drawback, even if it is one they bought for themselves.
So again I'm looking to see if I'm misinterpreting this drawback so I appreciate the feedback. If it does, as you say, apply to runaways, how then is the corp going to get those taxes? The runners aren't going to voluntarily pay them. They're likely using fake SINs anyway for their transactions, as they're trying to hide from said corp. And it doesn't make sense (from a game balance sense) that the taxes for the 25 point disadvantage are less steep than the 15 point disadvantage, if taxes are actually intended to be a penalty.
I did indeed see those suggestions about contacts friends ceasing to be contacts/friends in the writeup. But that's all assuming they ever find out in the first place. Up until that point, the 25 point drawback is just 25 free karma. And having one's contacts all wiped out after some event where the true ID is known is hardly worth 25 points, when you look at what you suffer through with 25 point allergies or addictions. The risk of being injured or killed (once) is in no way equal value to Sunlight or WI-FI exposure killing you all the time.
Crunch's ideas about handling moonlighters/dependents/retirees are perfectly sensible for the Corp SIN and more or less what I had in mind... I even like his ideas better than mine :) However, if one were to also allow use of this drawback for runaway PCs, how would you apply it in-game to make it worth 25 points? Roll Xd6 to see how many shadowruns they have before their expiration date? Just dice roll per session to see if the corp finally found them? Adapt the Overwatch mechanic to physical world actions, and when 'convergence' happens that's when the "Dead Man Walking" effect kicks in? Would you consider the drawback needing to kick so hard as to imperil the entire party to make up for doing nothing (in-game) up until then?
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You can add in that your Corp is going to be keeping close tabs on you and may well use its leverage on you to make you take jobs for it. And of course it narrows down your options of work too, because if you run against your parent corp and leave even the barest hint of something that could identify you, they're going to come after you like the Angry Fist of Zeus.
You may now be persona non gratis inside the corp, but they can always rehabilitate you at some point and you're still a valuable asset as a shadowrunner. Stop paying your taxes and I'm sure they wouldn't be above sending a response team out to arrest you and seize your assets rather than letting you run free. Or worse, sell you out to a rival you've hit, just for the lolz. You're 'free' because it's more convenient for you to be out there sort of making your own way than being locked up or dead.
You owe them. They gave you everthing you've ever had and taught you everthing you know. You're ass is theirs.
Along with that there's the bits already mentioned about anyone from a rival corp probably assuming you're on espianage and dangerous if they find out your secret. And everyone outside the Corps hating your over-privileged bones. Won't matter how much you hate the Corp or have been cast aside.
It's the same as most expensive negative qualities. It doesn't have affect you all the time if you're reasonably smart about it. But it makes life awkward and it could crop up and put a serious crimp on your day at an innoportune moment.
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Well, having any kind of SIN at all is going to give you serious problems if you're not careful. Honestly, I don't really agree with making the various levels of SIN (with the exception of a Criminal SIN). It makes converting some of my old characters to the new edition something of a pain, since 25 karma is all you're allowed in chargen.
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Effectively, it means the corporation views you as it's property. As in, "if you find this person, return them to us (or else we will send some combination of lawyers and guns to retrieve them)" property. Buying goods (of any kind, even a bowl of TVP), or providing you a roof to sleep under is on the order of "aiding and abetting", and letting you hitch a ride anywhere is analagous to being an accessory after the fact. It's not just a perception that "you're with that corp", that you'll have to face, but you'll also have to avoid leaving a trail of corp investigations and hits against people that didn't know to cross the street to avoid you the first time, and those who are willing to rat you out to avoid a second time (or for nuyen, let's be real). The cost of either one is going on your record, and the people spending it don't really care, as long as they're not you.
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Effectively, it means the corporation views you as it's property. As in, "if you find this person, return them to us (or else we will send some combination of lawyers and guns to retrieve them)" property. Buying goods (of any kind, even a bowl of TVP), or providing you a roof to sleep under is on the order of "aiding and abetting", and letting you hitch a ride anywhere is analagous to being an accessory after the fact. It's not just a perception that "you're with that corp", that you'll have to face, but you'll also have to avoid leaving a trail of corp investigations and hits against people that didn't know to cross the street to avoid you the first time, and those who are willing to rat you out to avoid a second time (or for nuyen, let's be real). The cost of either one is going on your record, and the people spending it don't really care, as long as they're not you.
I agree completely with what you're saying. Since afterall, we're talking about a 25 point negative quality, not a positive one.
But this goes back to my conundrum if runaways are allowed to use it. Runners are already paranoid about not falling into the hands of the authorities. What limitations or drawbacks are being imposed in every day play for being *more* paranoid of being caught... that balances fairly up until that time that contacts shun the PC and/or the Corp finally nabs him? It doesn't do to have a player with a 25 point allergy or addiction dealing with the effects (or dealing with trying to avoid the effects) when the player with the 25 point Corp SIN disadvantage is just doing what runners already always do by covering his tracks.
Basically, a Corp SIN runaway PC is exactly the same thing as a PC without any disadvantage at all, only with 25 more karma. All the way up until they are 'found out' or summarily executed/removed from the campaign to satisfy the quality. That's not only unfair with regards to players with 25 points of drawbacks elsewhere, but unfun for everyone involved.
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They have to go way beyond that. A normal runner only has to stick to being too costly a target to persue and not worth the effort. A corp-kid has the problem that any trace that leads to them WILL get them in a lot of trouble, not to mention that if their secret leaks they die. A normal runner doesn't have to fear his colleagues to the level of utter paranoia. Against a corp-kid, people go the extra mile.
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They have to go way beyond that. A normal runner only has to stick to being too costly a target to persue and not worth the effort. A corp-kid has the problem that any trace that leads to them WILL get them in a lot of trouble, not to mention that if their secret leaks they die. A normal runner doesn't have to fear his colleagues to the level of utter paranoia. Against a corp-kid, people go the extra mile.
I agree with the sentiment but think ultimately the logic doesn't work.
A player who's PC is being ruthlessly hunted by a global power being hyper paranoid and careful isn't just paying for the 25 point drawback, he's making the entire team suffer. Making them suffer by making planning sessions become overly long, necessitating special contingencies to address his special situation, being incentivized to turn every lost fight into a TPK rather than a 'just give up, we'll post bail later' salvage situation. Negative qualities are only supposed to harm the PC with it, not the whole party.
The more I think about this, the more I think Crunch has it exactly right.
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If you don't like the impact it will have on the rest of the group, there's 2 possible solutions really.
1: The player decides it's a bad idea and changes qualities.
2: The GM forbids it due to being too complicated to run with.
Honestly, I can only imagine allowing it when someone already has 5 or 10 points in negative qualities, so they take it not just for points but for flavor as well.
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What I want to know is why did they feel the need to overcomplicate something that was simple and worked fairly well in the last edition? In the last edition, you had two levels, one for a national or corporate SIN, and one for a Criminal SIN. Simple, easy, and didn't cause as many problems as what you see here. The more in depth parts of the new qualities would be handled by other qualities, mixed and matched to fit, or by lifestyle, or just plain roleplaying. I don't quite see the need for this.
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Nostalgia.
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To be fair, I think some of you are overdramatizing how "crippling" some of the other 25 point negative qualities are.
Take a Burnout level addiction to Zen. OK, so you pay 5 nuyen a day for a dose of zen, and you roleplay an escapist character who for 10x1d6 minutes every day are easily absorbed by detail and obsessive about certain facts or problems.
Or the 25 point Allergy quality. Sure, the -6 dice pool modifier is bad, and 1 box of unresisted Physical damage every 30 seconds is potentially lethal, but that's where planning and (hopefully) good team mates come in; considering your character will be in rather obvious excruciating pain if exposed to the allergen, I'd figure that this is something he'd probably plan for...
To my mind, the 15 point Insomnia quality is far more crippling; Threshold 4 WIL + INT test to get any rest at all to regain Stun Damage? Even with 12 dice, you'll fail roughly half the time and for any of the Magical disciplines this could be potentially devastating.
Then you've got the innocuous Incompetent (not too bad, but again in the wrong place at the wrong time, potentially lethal), Uncouth, and Uneducated qualities; these all affect game stats more than any of the 25 point ones.
To my mind, Corporate SIN is just fine as written. Just as with a Severe Common allergy, you have to take steps far beyond that of other, non-Corporate SIN runners. Does that mean the game has to be bogged down by insane planning sessions? Hell no. Take Disguise, make it a modus operandi to always use it every morning, for instance. Wear helmets, gloves, full body suits at all times to minimize the risk of leaving trace evidence.
Or, as in the case of my character, move to Chicago and settle down in the CZ. Hey Ares, you want to come get me? Bring it...
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I see a lot of people talking about things like "the corp is hunting you", but that simply doesn't fit the rulebook's description. If the corp were hunting you, there wouldn't be a 10% income tax to the corp. Corporate Born SINners aren't all that afraid of their corp, they're afraid of everyone else.
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Yeah, I don't buy the corp hunting you under Corporate SIN. But I do think that the Corp is interested enough in you to pay attention, which can be problematic in itself.
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Having a Corporate SIN doesn't mean the corp is hunting you. It does, however, mean that there's a record of your existence out there that is harder to escape when you cross jurisdictions. This means you have to be extra careful about leaving evidence behind, and you really ought to think three or four times before taking runs against mother corp. But how much do you really think NeoNET will care if one of their drones' family members decides to go moonlighting on runs against Saeder-Krupp? Cover your tracks, don't draw too much heat, and never run against the corp you were born into, and you'll be fine.
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^^ Fourth'ded... I'm with ZeConster, Crunch, and Mirikon on this one.
Just because you have a Corp SIN doesn't mean the corp has an outstanding bounty on you, at least not according to the text as written.
Given how many people conceivably work for Ares, or S-K, or any other mega, it'd be a logistical nightmare of epic proportions just to keep track of each and every Corp SINer who went AWOL, never mind trying to bring them all back in the fold.
I also find it completely believable that a Corp SINer could be an actual undercover agent for his parent corp, in which case keeping this fact from his compatriots would be even more relevant.
In any case, having to taking reasonable steps to hide ones identity to avoid being shunned, hurt, or worse by ones fellow runners, paying 10% of all income (either back to the corp or as a money laundering "fee", if you will), and having to role play one of the privileged few who grew up with a corp SIN (and who is very likely more than a little brainwashed as a result) and either chose to or had to leave the corp seems fair for the karma cost compared to some of the other negative qualities, at least in my view.
The very real challenge comes in the form of role playing a desire to not run against your parent corp without giving away your secret. How do you explain to your team mates that you don't feel like doing this run because it is against your corp? What happens if you do the run; can you alleviate your conscience by nabbing the pay data and giving it back to the corp with a "this is no longer a secret" flag? Would you write one act off against secretly funneling other info to the parent corp on a regular basis? How do you play a reticence to act against a certain party that is hardly innocent in any way, shape, or form.
As an example, the background for my SRM character is one of a human male in his mid-30s who grew up an Ares SINer in Seattle, joined the UCAS Army and served for about a decade, and who returned to Seattle after receiving an honorable discharge despite rumours of drug use as his Corp SINer parents pulled some strings. Disgruntled with civilians complaining about (in his opinion) trivial matters, he relocated to Chicago when a former team mate set him up with a security contract and he's spent the past five years there, effectively living off the grid (as many real world veterans did and still do when returning from active duty).
While I haven't currently because of SRM potentially being GMed by different people, in a home game I would easily have taken the Prejudice negative quality against the common group Civilians (i.e. all non-military) as a bias, and the mild Cram addiction to further build up the character background with qualities.
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^^ Fourth'ded... I'm with ZeConster, Crunch, and Mirikon on this one.
Just because you have a Corp SIN doesn't mean the corp has an outstanding bounty on you, at least not according to the text as written.
So then, is there any alternate suggestion for a corp runaway holding a Corp SIN drawback other than downgrading it to a 10 point drawback (and treating it mechanically like Criminal SIN)?
I think we're all on the same boat for the Corp SIN drawback for characters that are still in the employ and/or in regular contact with the Corp.
To be fair, I think some of you are overdramatizing how "crippling" some of the other 25 point negative qualities are.
Take a Burnout level addiction to Zen. OK, so you pay 5 nuyen a day for a dose of zen, and you roleplay an escapist character who for 10x1d6 minutes every day are easily absorbed by detail and obsessive about certain facts or problems.
Or the 25 point Allergy quality. Sure, the -6 dice pool modifier is bad, and 1 box of unresisted Physical damage every 30 seconds is potentially lethal, but that's where planning and (hopefully) good team mates come in; considering your character will be in rather obvious excruciating pain if exposed to the allergen, I'd figure that this is something he'd probably plan for...
I disagree completely. A player can avoid the negative effects of those 25 point drawbacks, but only by limiting his PCs options. "Sorry, I can't get out of the van during our daylight op.." or somesuch. A runaway taking care to avoid being found is simply doing what runners already do.. he's not actually paying for the drawback by being cautious.
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Nope. I say treat it like it's written. That's what I'd do... Whether or not the SINer is a runaway or not, he'll still have to look over his shoulder, he'll still be taxed 10%, and he'll still have to role play his choice by taking precautions. To me, that's more than enough as not all negative qualities translate directly into game mechanics only, but are easily just as important for role playing purposes.
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Nope. I say treat it like it's written. That's what I'd do... Whether or not the SINer is a runaway or not, he'll still have to look over his shoulder, he'll still be taxed 10%, and he'll still have to role play his choice by taking precautions. To me, that's more than enough as not all negative qualities translate directly into game mechanics only, but are easily just as important for role playing purposes.
Here's another thought.. getting off the runaway background.
For those PCs that are 'conventional' Corp SINners, would you flip the tax rates for the 15 and 25 point drawbacks? Yes, fluffwise, in this megacorporate world the rich pay a lower proportion of their income. Yet the quality mentions nothing about being 'rich'.
Why should a 15 point drawback have a more severe tax than the 25 point drawback?
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Because, in universe and ignoring the karma costs, part of a corporate limited SIN is about paying for the privilege of corporate protection.
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The horrid way the SIN qualities were handled is why having a SIN should just be the player saying they have one and are a legal citizen (one thing that was pretty much the case in older editions). Either that, or there should be Positive versions (which should be rather cheap). A player shouldn't have to get their character royally boned to be an actual citizen.
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That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.
Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.
@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?
While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).
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Never said they weren't clear.
They DO however need to change and change drastically.
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That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.
Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.
@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?
While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).
I was meaning fluff-aside, game mechanics wise.
How else would you penalize, in-game-play, a PC with the 25 point Corp SIN disadvantage differently than another PC with the 15 point Corp-Limited SIN disadvantage? Especially considering the one with the less steep disadvantage has the mechanical penalty of paying higher taxes. The Contacts and friends are somehow "more" upset, if/when they ever find out the true Identity? They're "more" likely to find out in the first place?
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A corporate limited SIN doesn't imply the same level of connection to the Corp that a full on Corporate SIN does.
So playing by the book people are suspicious of someone with a limited SIN and hostile towards a full corporate SIN.
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A corporate limited SIN doesn't imply the same level of connection to the Corp that a full on Corporate SIN does.
So playing by the book people are suspicious of someone with a limited SIN and hostile towards a full corporate SIN.
Assuming they ever find out.
Until then, assuming it ever happens at all, the 25 point Corp SIN is just 10 more karma benefit than the 15 point Corp Limited SIN?
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It's a flaw that's heavily influenced by table and roleplay issues, but here's how it would go at my table.
1) The corporation is less likely to be keeping tabs on the Limited SINner.
2) The stakes of discovery are lower in RP terms.
3) Any corporate SINner can to a certain extent be blackmailed by the corp. The threat of being stripped of your corporate SIN and retagged with a Criminal SIN should be a fairly major RP issue and has in game consequences as well in terms of having to repay the cost of the negative quality.
Like most potential or RP centered flaws how harsh it is depends on the table.
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Never said they weren't clear.
They DO however need to change and change drastically.
Again, that's your opinion, not fact. I think they're fine just as they are, and that's my opinion...
Also, Stainless Steel Devil Rat, see ^^ from Crunch. That's basically my answer.
If your table is not RP heavy enough where the difference between the SIN qualities makes a difference, disallow it or rewrite it to fit your style. The way I play it, the rules are just fine.
As to how you would rewrite it, that'd be up to you. Your suggestion about making the SINs more like SR4 is certainly valid, as is whatever All4BigGuns wants to do beyond "just changing them".
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The very real challenge comes in the form of role playing a desire to not run against your parent corp without giving away your secret. How do you explain to your team mates that you don't feel like doing this run because it is against your corp? What happens if you do the run; can you alleviate your conscience by nabbing the pay data and giving it back to the corp with a "this is no longer a secret" flag? Would you write one act off against secretly funneling other info to the parent corp on a regular basis? How do you play a reticence to act against a certain party that is hardly innocent in any way, shape, or form.
Well, depending on the corp, that can be easy. There are plenty of runners out there that have a reason not to run against a certain corp that doesn't involve being a SINner. Part of covering your tracks is preparing a convincing enough story. However, it could be as simple as just alluding to some trouble in your past that you don't want to dig up. Your team isn't going to want to share all their deep dark secrets either, right? Remember that your SIN status isn't the only secret out there.
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It's a flaw that's heavily influenced by table and roleplay issues, but here's how it would go at my table.
1) The corporation is less likely to be keeping tabs on the Limited SINner.
2) The stakes of discovery are lower in RP terms.
3) Any corporate SINner can to a certain extent be blackmailed by the corp. The threat of being stripped of your corporate SIN and retagged with a Criminal SIN should be a fairly major RP issue and has in game consequences as well in terms of having to repay the cost of the negative quality.
Like most potential or RP centered flaws how harsh it is depends on the table.
I'd add in that its not just about Mummy Corp. But given the point is you were a somebody and probably have familial connections who still are, rival corps may very well be interested in having a chat with you to see what they can squeeze out of you.
And if Mummy Corp is keeping tabs on you to make sure you aren't a security threat (reasonable and not too hard surely?) then if it wants to pay off a rival you've run against, she could always sell you out.
There are loads of ways you could use it if you want. I agree with Mirikon that they're an over complication on the SINs of SR4. But they're there now, so get creative and use them. Or don't use them if you prefer.
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Corporate SINers are the princes of princes of the corporste world. They're the ones who come out of business school into junior VP positions. If they're still breathing, nobody believes they are out. If one gets caught on a run it escelates things from shadowrun to corporate black op. Catching one is like catching a foreign military officer up to no good on your territory.
Dealing with the corp birn is like dealing with a dragon. Most shadowruners will put a bullet into a team member if they know they are corp born. If you don't it's only a matter of time before they sell you out to get back into some corps good graces. That type never leaves and if they have the skills to be a shadowruner they have the skills to be the person who tells the Johnson to hire the runners. Besides runners do this because they have to, the corp kid is just slumming. Do you want to have somebody for whom this is all a game watching your back (in character)?
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That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.
Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.
@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?
While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).
I was meaning fluff-aside, game mechanics wise.
How else would you penalize, in-game-play, a PC with the 25 point Corp SIN disadvantage differently than another PC with the 15 point Corp-Limited SIN disadvantage? Especially considering the one with the less steep disadvantage has the mechanical penalty of paying higher taxes. The Contacts and friends are somehow "more" upset, if/when they ever find out the true Identity? They're "more" likely to find out in the first place?
In the games I've run I use a system similar to how GOD in the matrix works. After a run I make a roll for each person with a SIN with a threshold based on their level and modified by things they did and did not do during the run. Were you not wearing a mask when you broke into a building? +1 dice. Did you take the time to remove any trace of your involvement? -1 dice. You can get really creative with your +/- to really reward or punish your players as needed.
One Corporate SIN player got particularly sloppy one run and afterwards, when everyone was expecting karma, he instead got a knock on the door. I gave him exactly 10 seconds to tell me what he was going to do and then let the scene play out. A few bullet holes and a leap from a second story window later he learned not only the value of a 25 point negative quality but also the value of professionalism. It may sound a bit heavy handed but now every player takes great care to actually play like those qualities mean something.
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Elizara, would you be willing to share more details on how you handle this? It sounds like a pretty cool system to me.
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Also remember there is an advantage to the "Corp born SINner" negative quality....
Knight Errant can't just shoot you and get rid of the body!
As a Corp born SINner you are afforded all the rights, protections and freedoms of your parent corp. This means that when the shit really hits the fan, the Corp born SINner can just throw down his gun and say "don't shoot me! I'm an Evo citizen!!!" ... which is yet another reason why those in the shadows hate/distrust a Corp SINner... they are not as invested in the run as everyone else cause "Daddy Corp" is always there to pull them out of the fire...
what the Corp does to their wayward child when they get him back however......
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Sorry, Reaver, but that's just not true. While they would have to fill out some paperwork on you since you have a SIN, that EVO SIN only provides you limited protections off EVO corporate property. Think about it this way: how much does a US Citizen's citizenship protect them in Mexico, Japan, or Somalia?
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Sorry, Reaver, but that's just not true. While they would have to fill out some paperwork on you since you have a SIN, that EVO SIN only provides you limited protections off EVO corporate property. Think about it this way: how much does a US Citizen's citizenship protect them in Mexico, Japan, or Somalia?
In Mexico or Japan?
A fair bit. Somalia... does it even have a stable government?
While you are still bound by the rules of the zone you are in, the simple fact that you are citizen of a foreign country (in this case a Corp), means you get a "few" extra privledges that a regular citizen does not. But that is also determined by the nature of treaties between the respective governments. Case in point, Italy and USA. USA and Canada, Canada and France, USA and France..... each country has a different level of co-operation with different governments....
But the simple fact that you are a Citizen means they HAVE to follow procedures and paper work when dealing with you, and not the "50 grain" solution...
which, in the world of SR, is one HUGE advantage that the SINner has over the other members of their crew.... and yet one more reason for their distrust.
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I had one player quit on me because I told him NO this negative quality does not mean he has his own corp and he does not have extra territoriality and he cannot drive his corporations htr ambulance with guns and grenade launchers through Seattle scot free.
Then he told me he wouldn't be playing because I couldn't color outside the lines...
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:o :o :o Bwa?
That's not 'coloring outside the lines', that's writing on the wall of the White House while the coloring book is in Topeka.
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Any player who tries to rulelawyer a negative quality into a purely-positive one is not a player lost, it's a headache lost. And this guy went beyond that. Good riddance.
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Gotta Agree Lynx,
you probably dodged the headache bullet there :P