Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Fenix on <11-25-13/2112:52>
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Hey guys, I'm somewhat newish to Shadowrun (or at least parts of it). My group played roughly a year-long campaign in 4A, and now that 5th is out I've taken up the role of GM. Last night was our second session, in which we continued the "Lost Islands Found" adventure out of Firing Line. For those unfamiliar, it begins with the runners picking up a professor from the university and then laying low for a while. One of my players pulled a contact and got a better safehouse than the one offered by Johnson. My mistake was making it a third floor apartment with only one way in (the fire marshal would have had my ass). When the gangers came about to get the professor for themselves (equipped with a mage and air spirit for concealment), they were spotted on the approach. Our mage pulled 3 fire spirits he had on standby and annihilated the spirit and mage (since the mage was a ghoul, this was all done astrally). This was all good and somewhat comical because it caused the rest of the gangers to freak and bolt towards the stairwell, hoping to find the mage responsible. By the time they made it to the top, the spirits had materialized and blocked off the stairwell, effectively blocking all access. The only options these poor souls had left was to spray AK-97 rounds frantically to no avail, since the spirits are immune.
My first lesson: give them more areas to cover, especially since I have a party of 7 players. The entire encounter should not have been resolved solely by spirits and the Troll battle-turtle that decided to hop out of the window.
My second lesson: find a way to deal with the spirits in a manner that is fair to the player, but doesn't allow him to just squash anyone that comes at him by spamming spirits.
The obvious answer to the second is just "throw awakened and/or other spirits at him," which I feel is a little cheap. One thing I have heard of doing is have the spirits he summons resist every now and then, maybe occasionally spend an edge to oppose being summoned/bound for a little extra drain if he tries to summon too often, or one with a force greater than his magic. This idea I liked, but I'm curious what some others might have done to compensate?
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Spirits are not 100% immune to non-magical attacks, actually. Assuming the player's bound fire spirits were of Force 6, if a ganger gets a single net hit, that AK-97 will deal 11P/-2, enough to pierce the spirit's Hardened Armor: the Fire spirit will roll 7+(12-2) = 17 dice, and get (12-2)/2 = 5 free bonus hits, for an average of 0.94P damage if they hit the spirit with a single net hit. It's very little, but it's not 0. If you give the gangers APDS, it's suddenly 11P/-6, so 7+(12-6) = 13 dice and (12-6)/2 = 3 free hits, for an average of 3.68P damage if they hit the spirit with a single net hit. If the gangers have good dice pools and/or work together to reduce the spirit's dodge pool, they can combine burst fire (-5 on the dodge test) with a Vitals Called Shot (-4 on the attack roll, +2 DV).
Second, binding spirits is pretty expensive. If we assume a player with 12 summoning and binding dice and 3 Edge, spent on Second Chance for both tests, they'll get ~4.7 Services on average from the summoning test, and ~1.82 extra Services on average from the Binding ritual (with a 2.30% of the summoning failing, not counting KO chance, and a 17.99% chance of the binding failing, not counting KO chance). Added together, that's ~6.5 Services in exchange for 150 drams, or 3,000¥. At 450-500¥ per service, even if you use all the services on combats, that's significantly more expenses than the gun users will have.
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*waves fist* Beat me to the punch. Yeah, spirits are not totally immune, you can take one out with enough firepower/hits on a roll. AKs could have pretty much put those spirits into the chipper with some okay rolls. A session I was in (I admit, I am a player who reads this forum, I like to help GMs), our meat shield took out a water elemental with a shotgun while my shaman had a beast spirit handling a fire elemental.
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Nice, I had thought all hope was lost for these guys! I see what I did now...I read the materialization rules (...gain Immunity to Normal Weapons while Materialized) and for some reason it didn't register that Immunity was a power of its own. I'm just now learning a lot of the critter and magic rules. My last character in 4th ed was a technomancer, so I only ever really learned Matrix rules and some basic combat (took a pot-shot every now and then). I'm still trying to catch up on some of the particulars like this ;)
Thanks for the input, guys!
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I can give you one important piece of advice: Oversummoning should ALWAYS be faced with Exploding Edge rolls from the spirits. It's the primary balancing factor in Oversummoning.
As for Lost Islands Found, the gangers were armed with explosive rounds, so that's 11/-3. If they hit that means they injure, with 1 net hit it's 12/-3 vs 16 soak dice and 5 autohits. That translates to an average 1.86 damage on a hit.
A good way to make that fight tougher on the spirits, by the way, is giving the gangers Ares Alphas instead of AK-97s and APDS rounds rather than Explosive Rounds. This puts them at 4.34 average on a single net-hit and they also have a grand total of 3 Recoil Compensation, meaning they can do a single Short Burst without penalties.
By the way, in Dragon's Song I fired a short burst into the cockpit at a Spirit engulfing Kane. I edged the roll and scored 8 hits, combined with the EBR's APDS 12/-7. If we assume the Spirit rolled average on its dodge (so 4) and average on its soak (so 2+2), it still took 12 damage. I know it took at least 10 because it got taken out instantly.
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Also, as the GM, you could always throw a street mage or shaman in with the gangers to give them some magical muscle, perhaps with a summoned or bound spirit of his/her own.
IMHO, the spirit rules need to be re-written a bit to make all the implications of Materialization and Immunity from Normal Weapons (and their armor in general) much more clear.
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He did, and the mage sent the flood of fire elementals to wipe it out in the beginning.
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So did the player pay Karma at chargen to start with several bound spirits owing them Services, or did they summon and bind the spirits during their downtime between the first and second session? The first will have cost them a significant chunk of Karma, the second a significant chunk of Nuyen.
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Also, as the GM, you could always throw a street mage or shaman in with the gangers to give them some magical muscle, perhaps with a summoned or bound spirit of his/her own.
IMHO, the spirit rules need to be re-written a bit to make all the implications of Materialization and Immunity from Normal Weapons (and their armor in general) much more clear.
I feel like there are certain concepts that are less elaborated on in 5th ed. that were explained more fully in 4th and vice-versa. I've been flipping between the two a bit to compare what was done previously on some things. Hopefully the expansion books will be a little clearer, at least to this novice GM ;)
So did the player pay Karma at chargen to start with several bound spirits owing them Services, or did they summon and bind the spirits during their downtime between the first and second session? The first will have cost them a significant chunk of Karma, the second a significant chunk of Nuyen.
He bought a Force 6 fire spirit at chargen and spent a huge chunk of his resources on magical goods. The other two spirits were Force 3 fire spirits (unbound) he had summoned roughly an hour before combat and had on standby in case anything went down, and took a few points of drain with it. The team's sniper spotted the concealed gangers, and our shaman stepped in to astrally sucker punch the spirit. He got a turn to retaliate, and the next turn the mage's spirits were in his face.
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I believe you're not allowed to have more than 1 unbound spirit summoned at the same time, plus a Force 3 Spirit would only have Hardened Armor 6, meaning an AK-97 with APDS will cancel it out completely, resulting in the spirit rolling Body alone versus (10+net hits)P damage. Plus the spirits' elemental attacks would only be 3P/-3, which is easily soaked.
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Yeah, far as I know, you can have up to your Charisma in bound spirits and 1 unbound. I never saw anything changing that in 4th or the new one, and that's what I remember from 3rd.
For the most part, as long as you remember that spirits are NPCs (and thus under your control) rather than "pets" under the player's control, there shouldn't be any problems.
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Also based on some of the stuff the runners have done they may have someone other then the gangers looking for him. If you really want to throw them off come up with a 'Counter Team' a group of shadowrunners who are competing with the team or just cross paths with them on a different run. Another option is to have a corporation or even local law enforcement have an interest in them. I mean they been using lots of magical and violent means to deal with their assailants and someone is going to notice. They will investigate and might even send a mage might not do it in person but astrally project and have his own spirits to watch his back. Also all that magical usage is going to leave signature all over the place making them easy to find later.
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I believe you're not allowed to have more than 1 unbound spirit summoned at the same time, plus a Force 3 Spirit would only have Hardened Armor 6, meaning an AK-97 with APDS will cancel it out completely, resulting in the spirit rolling Body alone versus (10+net hits)P damage. Plus the spirits' elemental attacks would only be 3P/-3, which is easily soaked.
Ahhh gotcha. Definitely a detail I overlooked. I'll be sure to take note for the future. I'll have to re-read the magic chapter and make sure I get all the details down. I appreciate you pointing these rules out to me :)
Yeah, far as I know, you can have up to your Charisma in bound spirits and 1 unbound. I never saw anything changing that in 4th or the new one, and that's what I remember from 3rd.
For the most part, as long as you remember that spirits are NPCs (and thus under your control) rather than "pets" under the player's control, there shouldn't be any problems.
I'll have to start implementing that for sure. So far I've been pretty much giving him a pass as far as obedient spirits go and just letting him run them. I might have to shake things up and throw him a slightly less cooperative one next time, full of lip about not wanting to be there ;)
Also based on some of the stuff the runners have done they may have someone other then the gangers looking for him. If you really want to throw them off come up with a 'Counter Team' a group of shadowrunners who are competing with the team or just cross paths with them on a different run. Another option is to have a corporation or even local law enforcement have an interest in them. I mean they been using lots of magical and violent means to deal with their assailants and someone is going to notice. They will investigate and might even send a mage might not do it in person but astrally project and have his own spirits to watch his back. Also all that magical usage is going to leave signature all over the place making them easy to find later.
Hmm that sounds like a fun idea! I'll have to keep that in mind as we go into the next couple of sessions.
Thanks for all the input so far guys, you've all been a great help so far!
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yea, A real big balancing factor for spirits is that they are sapient.. and thus have their own personalities, desires and wants...and they do not take kindly to being abused or used constantly as "disposable meat shields".
If you feel the shaman is being abusive to his spirits, start playing up the fact that the spirits are getting pissy about his treatment of them... If he continues to abuse them, start paying close attention to his commands and looking for simple, easy ways of messing with his commands so that the spirits obey the letter, and not the intent of the command :P
also remember... spirits seem to know EVERYTHING about the treatment of past summoned spirits... which means if the party ever has to deal with a free spirit, the shaman may not like what the free spirit demands as payment <evil grin> ("Sure, I'll help you..... After you put two in the back of the head of that one there for his abuses to my kind...")
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I believe you're not allowed to have more than 1 unbound spirit summoned at the same time
The rules are actually a little unclear on that:
You can summon spirits of your tradition (p. 279). Summoning a spirit is a Complex Action. You can only summon one spirit at a time, and it only hangs around for a limited time—a summoned spirit will return to wherever it was when you called it when it’s either through with all of the services it owes you or when the sun rises or sets (whichever comes first).
While it does say you can only summon on spirit at a time, it makes no mention of whether or not you can keep summoning spirits. You do have to face consecutive drain though.
That being said, this seems more like an oversight than RAI.
I can give you one important piece of advice: Oversummoning should ALWAYS be faced with Exploding Edge rolls from the spirits. It's the primary balancing factor in Oversummoning.
Spirits don't have edge anymore.
Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them). However, you can spend your own Edge pool on your summoned spirits’ tests if you like.
However, given that he used three fire spirits to block the single entrance/exit, shouldn't the house be on fire? They do have the energy aura power... .
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Spirits don't have edge anymore.
Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them). However, you can spend your own Edge pool on your summoned spirits’ tests if you like.
Read a little bit more closely: Once summoned or bound, they either do not have or do not use Edge. That does not preclude them from using it outside of those two conditions.
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That's a valid assumption but an assumption nonetheless.
The OP is a new GM who is still learning. A reading like that, while possible semantically, kind of sets a precedence for his players. By RAW, there is no rule that gives or advises a GM to use extra dice to oppose the binding test, except for the force. Reading the above state in that sense is basically the same as saying "because". That's not the way a new GM should behave unless he wants his players to run rampant with "It doesn't say I can't" readings.
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That's a valid assumption but an assumption nonetheless.
The OP is a new GM who is still learning. A reading like that, while possible semantically, kind of sets a precedence for his players. By RAW, there is no rule that gives or advises a GM to use extra dice to oppose the binding test, except for the force. Reading the above state in that sense is basically the same as saying "because". That's not the way a new GM should behave unless he wants his players to run rampant with "It doesn't say I can't" readings.
True, but it is within the rules and conventional wisdom around here - unfortunately, people sometimes forget that being conventional wisdom here doesn't always mean people come into the conversation knowing it.
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By RAW, spirits have Edge equal to half their Force. And if 4th edition is any indication, the magic book will probably include extra rules on spirits.
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Summoned and Bound Spirits cannot access their own Edge, yes, which is also how it was in SR4. However, when they're still being Summoned, they still have Edge and can use it to resist summoning, which is also how it was in SR4.
I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.
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I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.
They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose. Resisting binding would make sense in the game-world, but summoning? Unless a spirit is summoned by his true name, which spells slavery in capital letters, I don't see a real reason why a spirit would resist.
Plus, isn't being lopsided in favor of the summoner kind of the point of summoning? The magician is kinda supposed to get hits to get services. The more powerful the spirit, the less likely he is to get more than one service. I mean, the force alone would cancel his magic attribute and eat into his summoning skill.
I'm all for preventing imbalances, but basically telling the player "I'm going to alter your assumptions about the game by introducing another element that gives your opponent an edge over you" is kind of a heavy-handed way to do it. At that point, you might as well fudge the dice.
In that sense, I'd like to point out a GM's tool that has been neglected here so far: (Only applies to bound spirits)
If the gamemaster chooses, a spirit that has been set on a particularly long and/or undignified task may struggle against their binding, which imposes a –1 penalty to all tests as the magician works to compel the spirit to do his bidding, like a dog on a leash (an analogy, by the way, that would not make many spirits happy). At any point, the magician can take a Complex Action to try to bring the spirit to heel through an Opposed Summoning + Magic vs. spirit’s Force + Willpower Test.If the magician ties the spirit or get more hits, the spirit is calmed down and performs their service without further penalties for the summoner.
From a lore perspective, I can easily see a powerful spirit (aka one that exceeds the magic rating of the summoner) resenting being ordered around. A weak summoner is likely to fail that test, given that he's basically facing double the spirits force. It's not a large penalty, but it sticks around unless he expends a complex action.
As far as unbound spirits go, spirits are compelled to perform their services but how they go about this is entirely up to them. There is no rule compelling an oversummoned spirit to fight reckless or inefficient. If a spirit is so powerful that he cannot be harmed by the enemy, its entirely reasonable to assume that he feel that he can also take his time and enjoy it. What I'm saying is basically, spirits think different from people and they have their own motivations and understanding of things. A powerful spirit with mental stats way beyond its summoner can easily force his master to think their orders through *very* carefully if he wants to. He can also quite easily play dumb and force his master to expend more services than he intended to by giving new orders.
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I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.
They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose. Resisting binding would make sense in the game-world, but summoning? Unless a spirit is summoned by his true name, which spells slavery in capital letters, I don't see a real reason why a spirit would resist.
Plus, isn't being lopsided in favor of the summoner kind of the point of summoning? The magician is kinda supposed to get hits to get services. The more powerful the spirit, the less likely he is to get more than one service. I mean, the force alone would cancel his magic attribute and eat into his summoning skill.
I'm all for preventing imbalances, but basically telling the player "I'm going to alter your assumptions about the game by introducing another element that gives your opponent an edge over you" is kind of a heavy-handed way to do it. At that point, you might as well fudge the dice.
People just completely ignore that the spirit does want to be in the world and completely blow out of proportion that the spirit dislikes being bound.
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They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.
Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past. If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost. Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.
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They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.
Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past. If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost. Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.
But that doesn't condone the always part even with "over summoning". If the summoner hasn't been particularly 'bad' (a more 'neutral' disposition) or has been particularly 'good' even the ones that are higher Force would probably "go with the flow" just to be in the world.
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They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.
Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past. If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost. Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.
But that doesn't condone the always part even with "over summoning". If the summoner hasn't been particularly 'bad' (a more 'neutral' disposition) or has been particularly 'good' even the ones that are higher Force would probably "go with the flow" just to be in the world.
I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.
At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER). Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.
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I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.
At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER). Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.
Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.
If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?
If people would just enforce that the spirits are NPCs rather than 'pets', I suspect that any of the supposed 'problems' would be solved right there. Some can be trusted to control the spirit themselves (I know since one is in my group), but for the most part they should be controlled by the GM. If the GM can't overcome temptation to 'water down' what the spirit would do for "greater challenge" or to exploit his knowledge of the opposition, then he shouldn't be the GM.
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Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.
Care to cite a source for that, please? I am not aware of such a rule or flavortext apart from P. 300 saying they tend to appear in a way appropriate to the summoner's tradition.
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Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.
Care to cite a source for that, please? I am not aware of such a rule or flavortext apart from P. 300 saying they tend to appear in a way appropriate to the summoner's tradition.
Closest I see is somewhat after what you pointed out where it talks about them "struggling against the bonds" over a particularly distasteful task (which by the way would be after summoning is completed).
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I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.
At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER). Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.
Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.
If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?
The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place. This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.
Beaumis: Looking for specific lines, 99% certain I've seen explicit references in SR5. Got the following so far from the Spell Binding service:
This is very painful for spirits and
generally considered to be abusive—if you use this don’t
forget that word gets around in the spirit world.
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I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.
At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER). Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.
Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.
If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?
The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place. This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.
You miss the entire point. Since any ruling of that nature should be put out there plainly at the start of the game, if the player knows he'll be facing that Edge use from the outset, he may not see as much point in not "treating them poorly".
He'll be more likely to have the following attitude:
"Well, since they'll be resisting with Edge anyway, it doesn't matter how my character 'treats them'. Might as well treat 'em like tools."
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I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.
At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER). Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.
Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.
If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?
The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place. This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.
You miss the entire point. Since any ruling of that nature should be put out there plainly at the start of the game, if the player knows he'll be facing that Edge use from the outset, he may not see as much point in not "treating them poorly".
He'll be more likely to have the following attitude:
"Well, since they'll be resisting with Edge anyway, it doesn't matter how my character 'treats them'. Might as well treat 'em like tools."
... Obviously springing this on a player without any warning so they can play their character accordingly is a Bad Thing. That's in the "Dick Move, Do Not Do This" pile and as such isn't relevant to the argument. I am assuming, and you should be assuming as well, that everyone at the table is fully aware of the functioning of these things before anything relevant to them occurs - which does mean that the player gets a pass for spirit mistreatment occurring before the ruling is in place.
But, given that he needs to deal with multiple rules errors with spirits ANYWAYS, this is the right time to introduce things like that as well.
If the player knows the rule is in place at the outset, then he has a decision between having to deal with substantially less Drain and chance of failure while summoning, or treating his spirits as tools. He certainly could choose the former, but it's not a case of "they're gonna use it anyways", because they're only using it due to his treatment of spirits (in combination with the Force of the spirit).
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Again you miss the point entirely.
It comes down to this. Why bother treating the spirits well, if there's a good chance they'll resist you with Edge anyway? This is what may just be going through the player's mind.
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Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".
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Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".
In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.
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Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".
In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.
I think what he's trying to say is that a spirit may choose to use edge if the player has mistreated spirits repeatedly in the past (such as using them as meat shields regularly for several sessions). Yes the player should be fully aware that this is a possible consequence, but I don't see a problem in having one use edge once in a blue moon just to remind the mage to play nice ;)
Now if a GM were to have spirits spend edge regularly, that's entirely a dick move that many players (myself included) would just accept it as the norm and not see a reason as to why they should be respectful to spirits.
It could prove for a fun RP experience for my player as well. His character feels that spirits should be used as tools to do his bidding, it'll be fun to try to influence him otherwise through play
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With how subjective the "mistreating one's spirits" is, it should not only not be all that common but also come with warnings--to the player, not the character--that certain actions may precipitate such starting as they're brought up, because what the GM considers "mistreating them" may be well before the proverbial line to the player.
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The GM should always state upfront they make Spirits use Edge against Oversummoning and if summoned after someone is abusive. Players should be aware of consequences in advance here.
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Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".
In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.
Inaccurate. Let's look at the simplest way to do this - the first time a player summons a spirit, it's "Edge on oversummoning, and oversummoning only"; if he has Magic 6 there is no chance it will resist with Edge. The player's actions may transparently influence that mark in either direction - the sorts of things that are considered to be abusive or disrespectful would need to be outlined off the top, as would the reverse. So, no, the player cannot in fact reasonably think that because he's positing something that he knows to be false.
Michael: Would you disagree with the idea that if abuse and disrespect can move the "resist-with-Edge" barrier to lower Force, then respectful and kind treatment should do the reverse?
With how subjective the "mistreating one's spirits" is, it should not only not be all that common but also come with warnings--to the player, not the character--that certain actions may precipitate such starting as they're brought up, because what the GM considers "mistreating them" may be well before the proverbial line to the player.
And that's why you outline it off the top. There has to be a mutual understanding of what will be considered to be negative or positive. How common it is is completely up to the player - a player frequently using spirits as meat shields doesn't make using spirits as meat shields fine and dandy.
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You can't think of every possible situation "right off the top", hence the need for warnings. There are a few that can be gone over, but not all.
The "Always Edge on 'Over Summoning'" just needs to die in a fire. The Edge use needs to be restricted to if the 'mistreatment' has become habitual and egregious despite multiple warnings both in character and out.
But then, Edge use by NPCs needs to be extremely uncommon anyway. It devalues it's use by the PCs if the NPCs are using it too much.
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I've got some other rules to hammer out next (Matrix and rigging, I'm looking at you!) but I'll definitely have to discuss some of these clarifications/implications before we begin our next session next Sunday. Hopefully I can get away with just making the spirits get pissy with the mage if he mistreats them, but I'll make sure he's aware of what might happen if he abuses them before any edge is expended towards him.
Idk how I feel about edge on oversummoning. Right now I like the thought that spirits who are "bigger" than they are are better at resisting and finding creative ways to throw a wrench in the mage's plans (but still carry them out, of course). Perhaps similar to Charizard from the original Pokemon series ;) (hopefully I don't leave too many in the dust on that reference)
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You can't think of every possible situation "right off the top", hence the need for warnings. There are a few that can be gone over, but not all.
The "Always Edge on 'Over Summoning'" just needs to die in a fire.
Sure, but you put out the guidelines - it leaves a lot less room for interpretations, and some "are you sure"s are never a bad thing in these cases.
Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.
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Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.
It's quite sufficient if the character isn't a munchkin monstrosity, IMO.
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Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.
It's quite sufficient if the character isn't a munchkin monstrosity, IMO.
You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit. They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to. That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak. Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.
That does NOT take a "munchkin monstrosity".
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You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit. They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to. That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak. Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.
Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".
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You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit. They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to. That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak. Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.
Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".
I don't think that is much of a "power built character". It is a hybrid with less than optimal stats and equipment for summoning specialists, or even for many pure mage builds. It would be easy to build a summoning specialist who could summon a more powerful spirit, or at the very least a force 9 with more services, and that isn't even getting into binding. I'm a strong proponent of making a system as mechanically balanced as possible before introducing RP elements into it, so I feel the "edge on oversummon" rule is quite effective in introducing a risk vs rewards element, given the extreme power of a high force spirit.
I think the treatment of spirits starting out neutral, and giving bonuses or penalties based on interactions with spirits brings the RP into the mechanics, which makes another balancing element that encourages RP, and prevents overabuse of spirits, to be quite effective to balance out everything both in the realms of the crunch and the fluff.
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You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit. They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to. That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak. Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.
Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".
It very much isn't. It's a result of a set of decisions even a very new player would make based on the character concept - they decide that they want to be a sort of mediator that serves both the spirit world and the phyiscal plane. They realize that Charisma is important to everything they want to do, so they make sure to set that as high as they can. They don't want their character to be easily influenced, so they take a decent willpower. Given how defining Magic is to the character, they take a high Magic priority - but perhaps an Aspected one, if they don't see spells as part of the character. They take a focus as a background element, but keep it low rating since its all they can afford.
A power built version of that character setup for this specifically would have a higher Drain pool, a Specialization in Air Spirits, the Eagle Mentor, and a Force 4 Air Spirit Focus (plus some stuff for the Face side, and probably Quick Healer or something for the Drain, as well as a point or two of Edge), instead rolling 22 dice to summon an Air spirit, which is easily enough dice to go for any Air spirit the player wants to deal with the Drain for.
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No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.
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No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.
14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.
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Beaumis: Looking for specific lines, 99% certain I've seen explicit references in SR5. Got the following so far from the Spell Binding service:
This is very painful for spirits and
generally considered to be abusive—if you use this don’t
forget that word gets around in the spirit world.
That's an interesting aspect, especially because it lends credibility to the old "Hive Mind" theory. For those who don't know this one, a long time ago there was a theory floating around that saw spirits not as individual entities but the home planes as one entity. Summoner's basically force a tiny portion of that entity to separate from the whole and condense into an astral form. By this theory, all spirits of a specific type are actually one and share their knowledge and experiences. When they are dismissed or disrupted, they return to the "oneness" but when they are destroyed, a rare occurrence but it does happen, the hive mind knows that it got killed in the service of a specific magician.
If you find the source, I'd be interested in it.
As for the oversummoning debate, I still think that is an issue that should be handled with roleplaying rather than the summoning test. Spirits and DMs have plenty of tools to make their summoner's life miserable. They don't need the dice help IMO.
In regards to the question of whether or not a force 9 spirit is a problem as in All4BigGuns' example, it seems to me the issue here is not really the force of the spirit but rather its powers. Damage numbers as the ones presented can be easily achieved with grenades and the like, so we don't really need weapons for that. The invulnerability to normal weapons is more of a problem here. But quite frankly, if a player wants to trade some damage for a one shot spirit that at best will allow him to trivialize one encounter, I'd allow him to do that. He won't get time to heal and I would definitely enforce the natural healing on drain rules. I mean, even if he only takes three drain, he is still trading a long term -1 to all tests to make one encounter easier. And the BBEG encounter will likely have means to deal with that spirit and his damage output and defenses.
All in all, I don't think spirits are so much the issue here as players and GMs not playing spirits as the individuals that they are. I can see how that is convenient for both sides, but the way I read the rules, they sort of depend on being treated as intelligent and sapient beings. If you treat them as dispensing robots, they basically become light tanks at the beck and call of the magician.
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No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.
14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.
There is no more "thumbs up" button, so I just have to say that I quite agree.
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The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.
I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....
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No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.
14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.
It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.
The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.
I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....
Hold over, yes. But that line (which exists in the SR5 book) is just trotted out as an excuse for doing it. Those spirits may be a bit insulted by a weaker Magician summoning them, but since they want to be in the world, they'll more than likely bite the bullet and go with it so long as the character hasn't gotten several dozen others disrupted.
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No, it's power built. Going further just goes into the realm of munchkin monstrosity.
14 dice for the character's "thing" is not power built, period.
It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.
The "Edge on over summoning" is a hold over from 4Ae that stated that spirits find being over summoned to be demeaning and insulting.
I am sure once the new street magic book comes out, it will be there again too....
Hold over, yes. But that line (which exists in the SR5 book) is just trotted out as an excuse for doing it. Those spirits may be a bit insulted by a weaker Magician summoning them, but since they want to be in the world, they'll more than likely bite the bullet and go with it so long as the character hasn't gotten several dozen others disrupted.
it's possible yes.... basically that is going to be a "table call".... there is no hard and fast rule either way.. and like all rules, every table is open to using or discarding (or even changing) as they see fit.
The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....
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The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....
The only thing with Missions is that it's harder to shoot down the 20 dice munchkin monstrosity that never should have seen the light of day.
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It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.
... Just no. "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.
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It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.
... Just no. "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.
And for what would fall under 'making reasonable decisions', take 1 rank of Summoning, 2 ranks of Charisma and the Mentor Spirit out (well later on, until then leave the Mentor to be a true shaman).
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The only big question marks really is missions play.... which is where the GM has to be a bit more careful with sticking to RAW....
The only thing with Missions is that it's harder to shoot down the 20 dice munchkin monstrosity that never should have seen the light of day.
I can't tell what you have against people who like to make characters effective at what they do, but trust me, it does not take a munchkin to make a character who has 14 dice for their "thing", the same could be said of 18 dice, I wouldn't even call it powergaming so much until it reaches at least 20 dice. Though to be frank, I think that it is very rude that you continuously refer to the character types I like to build (specialists) as munchkin monstrosities. Building a character within the system that is highly competent at something is a perfectly valid playstyle, and can be done quite easily in this system, and yet you continuously refer to it with disdain that I find to be unfounded.
It's power built. It's just not munchkin to the extreme like 18+ dice is.
... Just no. "Power built" is not something you can just stumble into by making reasonable decisions to build your character toward concept.
I agree. A solidly built character is not "power built" or a "munchkin monstrosity", to be honest, I am somewhat curious as to what you do consider a non-power built character. Is it like "If they have more than 10 dice in anything at chargen, they are a powergaming munchkin"? I mean, without any assistance from technology or magic, a human can get 14 dice in something easy by chargen rules, and then add in augments, other enhancements (foci, mentor spirits, and any number of other modifiers) and it is easy to get a fairly high number of starting dice, while still remaining true to the core character concept.
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Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be. For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable. And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.
It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).
It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.
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Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be. For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable. And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.
It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).
It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.
The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.
"Power built" is what one is likely to see from the average gamer, and yeah, 14 to 16 dice is to be expected in general, but that doesn't change that it's power built. Not power built is what one will see from the "RP Elitist" crowd that takes things that sometimes get referred to as "Underwater Basket Weaving".
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The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.
Mechanically yes, but if Charisma is part of a defining aspect of the character higher is reasonable, not "power building". Your variation is a failure to realize the concept, really.
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Absolutely not - reasonable decisions do not involve scaling back from the things your character concept is supposed to be. For the concept I mentioned, interacting with the spirit world (Summoning) and dealing with a wide array of spirits and metahumans (Charisma) is central, and thus investing in them is reasonable. And I actually mentioned a half-allowable-rating focus when outlining the character concept, not a Mentor Spirit.
It's no different from a Street Sam having 14 dice to shoot - ludicrously easy to reach, and nigh-inevitable when building to such a concept (Agility 4(6), Weapon Skill 6, Wireless Implanted Smartlink or Specialization - higher is actually quite likely, depending on the player's image of the character).
It is, frankly, ludicrous to suggest that a character is "power-built" just because they're "Professional" in their defining skill or high/max ranked in their defining attribute.
The Shaman/Face doesn't need maximum Elf Charisma. A 6 Charisma works perfectly fine.
"Power built" is what one is likely to see from the average gamer, and yeah, 14 to 16 dice is to be expected in general, but that doesn't change that it's power built. Not power built is what one will see from the "RP Elitist" crowd that takes things that sometimes get referred to as "Underwater Basket Weaving".
If you're likely to see it from the average gamer, it isn't powergaming, it is gaming to the average expected powerlevel for the game.
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Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.
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the only thing that really screams "munchkin" to me is when a build lacks a rounded approach to the common challenges of the game. There really is only a few "core" and the rest are specialities...
IMO, the cores are:
Combat (pick a form... melee or ranged, astral, matrix, magical or drones.) you should be fair to good in at least 2 (meaning a skill pool of 2 to 5 to start)
Social (con, etiquette, neo, intimidate,) having a face is great, but you still got to interact with the world.... (pick one, should be between 2 to 5)
Info gathering of some sort, be it matrix, or people skills, this ties into Social and is related by skills... so you should have it already.
After that, you got the "acrhtypes" we all know and love.. and you should be good at your archtypes (skill of 3 to 6)
Unless you have some really cool backstory, none of your attributes should be a base 1... this is just screams munchkin as you couldn't find a spare point to up in that crippled attribute.
Remember, your character doesn't exist in a vacuum, and didn't spring from the ground as he is... he was born, grew up, and became what he is. And your skills should reflect that to some degree....
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I can see someone not putting much into the Social Skills. These are an area in which there is a lot of the "play it out" attitude where rolls hardly ever occur, and as such it can get to a point where someone feels their points were 'wasted'.
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I can see someone not putting much into the Social Skills. These are an area in which there is a lot of the "play it out" attitude where rolls hardly ever occur, and as such it can get to a point where someone feels their points were 'wasted'.
we "play it out" to a degree, but the player is NOT their character, nor the character the player....
A smooth talking player who puts crap into their social skills should not be rewarded for be a smooth talking player... so the roll is important to distinguish between the two....
Same for a player that is social inept.... they should not be punished (even though their manner may invoke such a knee jerk reaction) for their personal faults, especially when they took the time and effort to give their characters good to decent social skills...
If all you do is "RP it out" you are depriving the face of pulling off some wicked Charms (like convincing a guard to leave his post, or even let you in!), and are basically just removing an entire level of complexity to the game that really shouldn't be ignored.
However, some tables do ignore, much to my frustration and annoyance... but that is their choice I guess...... (and really, it is allowed by house/table rules)
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A smooth talking player who puts crap into their social skills should not be rewarded for be a smooth talking player... so the roll is important to distinguish between the two....
Same for a player that is social inept.... they should not be punished (even though their manner may invoke such a knee jerk reaction) for their personal faults, especially when they took the time and effort to give their characters good to decent social skills...
If all you do is "RP it out" you are depriving the face of pulling off some wicked Charms (like convincing a guard to leave his post, or even let you in!), and are basically just removing an entire level of complexity to the game that really shouldn't be ignored.
My sentiments exactly, unfortunately this seems to be the rare way to look at this... :/
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well, that is their choice... and they are welcome to play that way... as long as they understand that at a different table or a different GM might run things differently (more by the book, shall we say??)...
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Whoa, a lot of posts happened here while I was gone. Hope you missed me by my talk. ;)
Michael: Would you disagree with the idea that if abuse and disrespect can move the "resist-with-Edge" barrier to lower Force, then respectful and kind treatment should do the reverse?
Not at all. I think one of the debates on this matter even went into numbers and included Spirit Affinity. Can't remember what I all said there but I seem to recall including some possible numbers in that one.
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Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.
I dislike the term "power gamer" :(
I prefer the terms "Optimized, Balanced, Munchkin, and Nerfed" :P (but that is my personal choice)
I agree with you in part though most player power game Optimize to some degree or an other.
Nothing wrong with making sure you are REALLY good at shooting a gun IF you are samurai... or REALLY good at slinging code IF you are a decker...
This is after all the focus of your character! You SHOULD be good at it.
but power gaming Optimizing crosses over into munchkinism when you push a single focus of the character to the point that you are totally inept at other facets of the game. I am not saying every character has to be great in all aspects, but they should be at least competent.
It the same with real life. (going to use my profession here, so I am going to lose some of you in the train of examples...)
For me, I am REALLY good at big picture thinking when it comes to the installation of control and monitoring devices. I know just from what the total process is, what sensor need to go where, how far apart they have to be for total coverage, I know where the regulators and boosters have to be placed to maintain a strong pneumatic signal and I know where the transmitters have to be installed to optimize cable and tube structure.
However, I am only "fair" at tube bending, and only "good" at wiring.... I "suck" at welding (even though I have my ticket...) so I choose to do welding only when there is no one better then me around. However, I an awesome man-lift operator.
If we put this into game terms:
Process control & installation: 5
Tube bending: 3
Wiring: 4
Welding: 2
Man-lift operation: 6
(and for that, I get paid very large sums of money)
So that is my core skill set as an Industrial Instrument Mechanic and Electrician. However that is not the end al of my skills....
I have received Basic small arms training, (weapons skills: pistols and automatics)
I have to deal with both employees, Supervisors, Clients and suppliers (Etequette, Negotiation, bribery)
I have received medical training (first aid)
I have received basic survival training for extreme elements (survival, specialized in Hot and Cold weather)
I understand the Electrical Code for 3 countries (law specialized into Code rules)
And that really is the tip of the iceburg.
Your character is more then just his Gun... or his spell, or his deck. You are a professional... and should have the attributes and skills to reflect that. No other group of professionals is going to work with a crippled idiot who drools until it's time to shoot something simply cause he is a liability to THEIR survival!
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As far as power gaming goes, I'll say this: If I had to create a definition of player types that provided for a structural method of differentiation, it would consist of a set of scales upon whoich I would expect every player to rank (complete with testing of each individual scale for all relevant forms of validity if I could), one of which would indeed be power gamer - everyone's got a bit of it. If I were to use characters created to help measure these aspects, however, the equivalent of having 14 dice in your specialty would not be consider an indicator for power gaming.
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Incorrect. The average gamer "power games" at least a little. Though they're unlikely to admit it because when certain camps say 'power game' they mean 'munchkin'. Those are two entirely different things.
That would be incorrect. Powergaming is not optimization of a character concept, nor visa-versa. If someone comes to a natural conclusion when trying to make their character concept, and that happens to have 14 or more dice, they are just gaming, and that is what the rules state their character concept has for dice. If someone goes to obtain as much dice in a skill as possible, that is a form of powergaming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming
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Thank you for linking the perfect example of the fallacy. "Power gaming" is what most gamers do, but the term gets falsely applied to munchkin-antics. IMO, "optimization" is the same thing as as "munchkin building". Proof is found in the "optimized" 'builds' I've seen for Pathfinder which contain multiple attributes dumped to 7s. Utterly ridiculous but a perfect example of why "optimization" is munchkin.
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If we're going to argue about terms like that, perhaps each person should explains what each term means for them. After all, to me, merely optimizing your character concept doesn't equal this, either:
In gaming, a munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' enjoyment. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.
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Of course, getting back to the root of this, Guns, you insisted that a character with 14 dice at chargen was "power-built" and that this was a reason they could be dismissed from consideration on whether or not high force spirits are an issue - which is also completely insufficient criteria upon which to dismiss a character from consideration here, but still.
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Lessee... 7 Magic, 6 Summoning, +2 Specialization, +2 Mentor Spirit, +4 Summoning Focus... So that's 27 karma and 16k nuyen for 21 dice. A more solid character would be at 16.
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If we're going to argue about terms like that, perhaps each person should explains what each term means for them. After all, to me, merely optimizing your character concept doesn't equal this, either:
In gaming, a munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' enjoyment. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.
Powergaming for me is someone who is primarily focused on creating/playing a character who is powerful even if it makes little to no sense in context, and they are willing to use cheesy rules to get that. For example, a Mage who picked up sensitive system in 4, with no intention of getting any augmentations, just so they can get free points, is powergaming. I generally categorize munchkining as a subtype or extension of powergaming,but say that munchkining is what happens when powergaming is taken to the extreme, with no regards to others. A powergamer can still play with a group and care about what is/isn't fun for them, a munchkin is there for themselves.
The problem is that, while I can understand some people having an issue with powergaming, saying that something like 14 dice, which is easy to obtain without any difficulty, is powergaming is just incorrect. The term powergaming implies that it is different from regular gaming, with a focus on obtaining power. If someone who hasn't played an RPG before can easily pick up the book and make a character with 14 dice just by following their concept, that is not powergaming.
For me there are three categories.
Powergamers makes their numbers as high as possible to give them the most power, then creates a character around that, if at all. Cruch, then fluff, so to speak.
Roleplayers makes a concept and makes the numbers support that, sometimes to the detriment of the crunch. Fluff, then crunch.
Average gamers do a little of both, the concept is there, and the numbers support it, but they might change the concept to support the numbers, or the othe way around. Both crunch and fluff develop at the same time, each influencing each other.
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Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.
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Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.
Sure, they can function on 10 to 12 dice - until they encounter Rating 4 enemies, then they'll have issues. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, to be honest.
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Let's not forget a few of the typical tougher enemies you might face. A force 5 Air Spirit has 13 dice to attack and 14 dice to dodge, plus 13 soak dice. Meanwhile, the enemies in Dragon's Song were pretty much rating 5.5, which I liked to call "the same dice as I got".
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Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.
Sure, they can function on 10 to 12 dice - until they encounter Rating 4 enemies, then they'll have issues. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, to be honest.
They'll have a tough fight against those "rating 4" enemies, sure, but that only proves that the system is more designed with such pools in mind. Taking the 10 to 12 range of dice pools along with enforcing that spirits are NPCs controlled by the GM rather than pets controlled by the player, you'll probably find they're fine as-is. Hell, take that range and you'll likely discover that Mystic Adepts are fine as printed.
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Again, what point are you trying to make here? That if you forbid people from having more than 12 dice in any pool at chargen, they won't be overpowered? That any player who starts with 14 dice in something is a power-gamer who should be curbed in?
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That people are making the absurd "overpowered" claims based off of pools that are above the baseline the game is designed for.
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If the game was designed for smaller pools, it wouldn't be dead simple to have a solid character with at least half a dozen skills at 14+. So no, the game wasn't designed purely for the low power-levels. And at the lower power-levels, even a Force 6 Spirit is already overpowered, since it has dicepools you already consider way too much.
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How "easy" it is to get those higher pools is immaterial. If you look at the published NPC opponents, you'll see that pools of 10 to 12 would be able to defeat them (whether in combat or other actions depending on the nature of the opponent and/or the approach taken), but it may very well be a difficult prospect at the higher ratings. The Force 6 spirit may appear "overpowered" on the surface, but with Drain resist pools around the specified range, there would be quite the heavy price in damage for summoning it, so it evens out.
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Do me a favor. Math out that heavy price in damage you're talking about. Proof that you actually know what you're talking about and aren't making gut statements here without anything to back it up.
Result for sha1: 3edae4199a8d8b5456af1de6141cfff5afb9f328
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Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.
... Just... No. That's ridiculous. The minimum functioning level cannot ever be where you determine if something is too powerful. Dealing with the range of what can exist is not optional. In any case, at 12 dice a Force 9 spirit is still much too easy to summon. All you've done now is establish that even at that minimum, it's a problem.
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That people are making the absurd "overpowered" claims based off of pools that are above the baseline the game is designed for.
Okay, so here's my understanding of what you're saying here (please correct me if I'm wrong): "You only need dice pools of 10-12 to get by, so anyone with dice pools of 14+ is clearly a power-gamer, and you should only balance your game around the non-power-gamers." Because if that's the case, not only do I disagree with all three of those points, but someone with a summoning dice pool of 12 (which my Missions magician has, by the way) can still give birth to a monstrosity without counter-measures put into place.
If you use 2 points of Edge (1 on the summoning, 1 on the Drain resist, both on Second Chance), 12 summoning dice, 8 Drain resist dice and 3+ Body gives you a 92.11% chance of summoning a Force 9 spirit, and a 99.24% chance of not passing out (and a 99.99% chance of not dying). That is a non-"power-gamer" character that still has more than 90% chance of successfully summoning and giving a murder-them-all order to a:
- Force 9 Spirit of Air (21 attack dice, 22 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks);
- or a Force 9 Spirit of Earth (16 attack dice, 17 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks, 13 Body versus magical attacks);
- or a Force 9 Spirit of Man (18 attack dice, 20 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks, 10 Body versus magical attacks, 18 dice on spellcasting, 18 Drain resist dice, which means they take an average of 2.17 Drain casting a Force 9 Ball Lightning, with 0.07% chance of failure, 3.20% chance of scatter, and an average damage value (if it doesn't fail) of 11.98P/-9).