Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: The Bald Man on <01-06-14/1347:50>
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There are 3 parts that combine to determine the STR and AGI of cyberlimbs.
1 - Baseline of 3 (basic package)
2 - Customization (up to and including your natural maximum)
3 - Enhancement (up to 3 additional)
Baseline and Enhancement are clear to me. For "customization" is my natural maximum based on my race (and qualities like exceptional attribute) or is it my current STR and AGI.
Assuming a human without any relevant qualities and STR and AGI of 4. I can "customize" to 4 then "enhance" to 7. Can I "customize" to 6 then "enhance" to 9?
Thanks to all the experts here.
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Page 66 refers to natural maximum as the numbers on the Metatype Attrbute Table (and the fact that a starting character can only have one attribute at their "natural maximum limit"), through mention of "the starting attribute rating for each metatype (the number before the slash), as well as the maximum for each." This implies that cyberlimbs can be customized to the highest value (for STR and AGI) according to your metatype. Some people on this board disagree with this but I'll point out that this is their opinion only and not supported by the core rules nor the intention of the designers, as per Aaron's comments on the FAQ thread:
Q At Char Gen can you buy a Custom Cyberlimb that has Attributes OVER your current natural Rating, without using Enhancements. (An Elf With AGI 4 buying a Custom Limb with AGI 6)
Yes.
TL:DR:
Strictly by the rules as written, natural maximum refers to the number on the right side of the slash on the Metatype Attribute Table on page 66.
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Natural Maximum is your maximum value, not your current value, yes. So you can go 6+3. Cyberlimbs are not related to Augmented Maximum or your current attribute, which also means they do not aid your Physical Limit or your movement rate.
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Wait, since when do cyberlimbs not affect movement rate? Limits I'm aware of as per Aaron's reading in the FAQ thread, but movement rate? Why wouldn't cyberlegs influence movement rate, for example, when gear such as hydraulic jacks specifically aid in running tests?
Specifically, movement rate is listed as being "determined by metatype" on page 161, referring to the movement rate table on page 162. This table lists AGI x 2 and AGI x 4, making no mention of inherent attributes as the basis for the calculation. As per the Cyberlimbs chapter starting on page 455, you "take the average value of all limbs involved in the task", and I believe this to be critical since it's a task, not specifically a test.
So the STR/AGI 4 Elf with a single cyberlimb of AGI 9 would use his average AGI (depending on what limbs the GM deems to be involved in the task of running) of either 6 ((4+4+4+9) / 4 = 5.25 rounded up) or 5 ( (4+4+4+9+4) / 5 = 5, or (4+4+4+9+4+4) / 6 = 4.83 rounded up). for the calculation of movement rate.
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Thanks for the rapid response.
Follow up question. When buying alphaware does the cost modifier apply only to the base cyber limb or to all the extras that you put in the "capacity"? What about the "customization" cost?
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All enhancements/accessories put into cyberware must have the same grade level as the ware itself has. Customization also is more expensive for higher-grade ware (and cheaper for used).
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Does Capacity change the same way as Essence would from using Alpha/Used? So eg. would a +2 STR +2 AGI enchancement cost 5 capacity instead of 4?
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Not at all, Capacity is Capacity and is unrelated to Grade, it's solely related to item type/rating.
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@Michael Chandra: "All enhancements/accessories put into cyberware must have the same grade level as the ware itself has."
Do you have a page number with that rule?
That would help solving one of my groups many SR5 arguments
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Also remember that since it isn't called out as a specific exception, putting a deck, comm or other similar device into a higher grade limb will carry the same cost increase.
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"All accessories and add-ons must be of the same
grade as the implant to which they are added."
p. 451
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By the way, implanted commlinks/cyberdecks aren't accessories themselves, so do not use grades. Only the essence-costing part does. So no cheap cyberdeck Used, or really expensive Delta one.
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Find a quote that specifically states that the cost increase does not apply. It is still an add-on, thus follows the same rules.
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Thx for the page reference!
I am not gonna touch that cyberdeck/commlink issue with an eleven foot pole
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Is it intended that the Headware "Cyberdeck" have an Avaiability of 5R (despite what deck you install) and only cost 5,000¥ + deck cost?
(as it mean you can install a Shiawase Cyber-5 at chargen as Used headware for 415,781.25¥ and 5R 1R -instead of 549,375¥ and 15R)
Think of it as an accessory. Deck sold separately.
Aaron seems to think the deck is sold separately, and seeing as how his answers are to be considered official, well...
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I like to answer questions, but my answers are not official and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Catalyst Game Labs or its employees. I might even be wrong.
Emphasis mine.
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1. Is your answers are "official" answers from the SR5 developer group?
They're as official as I can make them. I worked on the book and on the rules committee that came up with the rules before the book was written. I'm working on the Shadowrun FAQ that will be released once Line Developer Jason M. Hardy has a chance to look it over. Those answers I'm not 100% certain about I vet with Jason and the folks who work on Shadowrun. I never post an answer that I think might be contradicted in a future update. Other than that, you get what you pay for.
Make of that what you will.
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There is no way you get 25% off 100-200k decks for 0.1 essence and 4k nuyen :D *puts pole away*
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Wait, since when do cyberlimbs not affect movement rate? Limits I'm aware of as per Aaron's reading in the FAQ thread, but movement rate? Why wouldn't cyberlegs influence movement rate, for example, when gear such as hydraulic jacks specifically aid in running tests?
Specifically, movement rate is listed as being "determined by metatype" on page 161, referring to the movement rate table on page 162. This table lists AGI x 2 and AGI x 4, making no mention of inherent attributes as the basis for the calculation. As per the Cyberlimbs chapter starting on page 455, you "take the average value of all limbs involved in the task", and I believe this to be critical since it's a task, not specifically a test.
I typed up a whole response on why you were wrong, but then I read over the line again and got your point. You're saying that, since it's not "used for a test" you refer to the second line ("In all other cases") which state you use the average.
I don't think that's what they mean by that line. I interpret it as using the limb's value when using a test with that particular arm. or using the average in all other cases - as in, when you're doing a test not just using that particular arm. But it's not very clearly written; It could certainly be read your way as well. Worthy of further discussion, but I used up all my pre-work time writing up my first response.
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I agree, not clearly written at all. I'll post a question in the FAQ thread.
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Thanks for this thread and the answers as it helped me find where I did things wrong. I don't post thank you's much, but this was a really big help.
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As far as the whole internal deck thing goes, Bull's answer to the question is the same - the implant is what the deck goes into, and the cost changes do not apply to the deck. Amongst other things, this means that you can't get a used implanted cyberdeck to circumvent normal cost and availability.
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The headware table lists cyberdeck as $5,000+cost of cyberdeck. Its seems logical that the $5,000 would be subject to deltaware cost increase, and then you add the straight cost of the cyberdeck.
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The headware table lists cyberdeck as $5,000+cost of cyberdeck. Its seems logical that the $5,000 would be subject to deltaware cost increase, and then you add the straight cost of the cyberdeck.
Which is precisely the official word.