Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: MadBear on <01-07-14/1712:42>
-
So I've been following/participating in a few conversations on here regarding cybernetic limbs, and from that and what I've read in the rules, in my opinion there are some serious flaws regarding cybernetic limbs that need to be addressed.
According to the rules you can Customize a shiny new limb up to your Racial Maximum, and then add Enhancements on top of that, so a character could conceivably have an AGL of 1, customize up to 6, add enhancements to 9, and then happily shoot away with an effective AGL of 9... and then there are issues with how other cybernetics react with limbs, such as Muscle Replacement, or a Troll's natural armor. Also, it's conceivably very easy to do more damage with an unarmed punch and Bone Lacing than it is with an Obvious Cyberarm, and that makes zero sense to me.
Cybernetic limbs need to be balanced to match how your body works. You don't want a STR 3 arm on a STR 7 Troll, nor do you want a STR 6 arm on a STR 2 Elf, neither limb would function to its full potential.
I think Customization works backwards.
What I propose is a two-fold change: First, add Armor or Hardening in the Customization, to match things like Bone Lacing and thick Troll hide. This Hardening also allows the limb to match your other unarmed attack from Bone Lacing.
Second is you are required to Customize a limb up to your current effective stat(AGL, STR, and Hardening), including other enhancements, and no further. This way your shiny new limb can operate on exactly the same level as the rest of your body, be it Muscle Replacements or Bone Lacing or natural armor.
Enhancements then work on top of that, as normal.
Any thoughts?
And are there ways this can be abused?
-
As I stated before, leaving aside obvious abuse, there's no reason to restrict customization to the current level. All that does is heavily devaluate cyberlimbs. Take an Assault Rifle, if you want two 9-agi arms for it that's 99k already, and that's ignoring Strength and other addons. If you only allow a 3-agi to have 6-agi limbs, that's 69k. Meanwhile, for 72k they can get +3 agi from Used Muscle Toner, and that agi DOES help their movement rate and is fully present on all tests, including sneaking. And if they get Muscle Augmentation, it actually impacts their Limits, while their Cyberarms don't.
Now if you want to bitchslap 1-agi characters, yes, those deserve to be vetoed. Nobody with a 9-agi cyberlimb should be below 3 natural agi, and the same for Strength. But Cyberlimbs are designed to defy Augmented Maximum, and removing that just because you fear abuse is silly. Veto abuse, or veto them altogether, but do not restrict them in such a way that anyone taking them is screwing themselves over.
-
Second is you are required to Customize a limb up to your current effective stat(AGL, STR, and Hardening), including other enhancements, and no further. This way your shiny new limb can operate on exactly the same level as the rest of your body, be it Muscle Replacements or Bone Lacing or natural armor.
This limits cyberlimbs to +3, where the augmented max is +4 - the entire point of cyberlimbs not being subject to the augmented maximum rules is they can go beyond +4, but at a price.
I've suggested an alternate houserule in the past: treating the racial minimum as 1 (so for Trolls, Strength 5 counts as 1 and Strength 10 counts as 6), you can only get [natural value x3] max on your cyberlimbs, meaning you'll need a natural Agi of 3 to get that Agi-9 cyberlimb.
(Also, no Exceptional Attribute unless you actually soft- or hardcap the attribute.)
-
By my rules Customization is used to bring your STR and AGl up to your modified current stat, so if you have a STR of 5(9), then you could Customize your limb up to that, and then add +3 STR on top of that, which still provides Cyberlimbs with the advantage of going above the +4 cap. In fact, my way allows for even greater upper limits, provided you have the other 'ware to match(Muscle Replacements, Muscle Augmentation/Toner, Etc).
But what about the idea of Hardening?
Current RAW in my opinion don't balance Bone Lacing with limbs. Plastic Bone Lacing deals unarmed DV STR+1P, which is MORE than a metal limb. Until you account for the increased STR. Strength being equal, I have a hard time accepting that a flesh hand with reinforced bones does MORE damage than a metal cybernetic limb.I dunno, maybe that evens out. But why invest all that money in a shiny new limb, if it's going to barely do more damage than your regular unarmed? Aside from Capacity for implant weapons and the bonus Condition Monitor box.
And yes, there is some room for abuse, but that is part of what I'm trying to find by asking here How abused could this be?. A human character with STR 4, Muscle Replecements 4, Aluminum Bone Lacing, and one Customized and Enhanced cyberarm would deal 10P unarmed damage, unless using his cyberarm, which does 9P RAW(Customized STR 6 +3 Enhancement), or by my rules does 13P(Customized to STR8, +3 Enhanced, +2 Hardening to match DV of Bone Lacing). A character with STR 6 or an Orc with 7 could then do DV 15 or 16. Ouch-but that same Orc could now get a limb with STR 3 for a LOT less, and wield a Katana or Combat Axe for STR+3 or +5, and do nearly the same damage, WITH AP. And my munchkin example certainly seems like a lot, but that uses up 6 Essence, and costs 187,500 y, with only the listed mods, no Armor, no AGL, which means Priority A or B. So yeah, he can punch like a sniper rifle, but that's about ALL he can do(Vs that Orc with one arm and an axe, who has a lot more Essence and Nuyen to spend).
And I don't believe in negating rules/nerfing rules for the sake of preventing such abuse(hate what they did to Critical Strike).
-
I would say that requiring people to get augmentations in order to get any real advantage from cyberlimbs (which are Essence-heavy enough on their own) is very much a nerfing rule.
-
That's a good point, and you would be correct; however what I suggest still allows for the usual +3 Enhancements, it just allows the limbs to work in concert with/at the same level as the rest of the modifications, if any. I think this is more of things making sense in my mind than trying to prevent put limits on things. If your only chrome is an arm, and low basic stats, you should not, in my mind, have STR or AGL upwards of 9. But if you have reinforced bones and replacement muscles, then yes, maybe you should be able to get just a little bit more out of your arm.
-
Leaving aside clear abusive situations that a GM has every right to veto, what exactly is the problem with someone taking two Cyberarms beyond their Augmented Maximum value?
-
A body that functions at a 3 with Customized limbs at 6 and further Enhanced to 9... my problem here is I fail to understand how such a limb can operate at full potential without ripping itself off the attached body. This not just beyond human maximum, but so far beyond the maximum of the body I just can't comprehend how that is supposed to work. All my proposal does is make things make sense in my mind, that an enhanced body can take advantage of more powerful prosthetics. Think about it, you are attaching metal and ceramics and pistons to soft squishy flesh and brittle bone. BUT, if that bone is reinforced with Aluminum and the squishy flesh is vat grown muscle, then shouldn't that metal and ceramic and pistons be able to move faster, pull stronger, without damaging the flesh?
And again, at risk of beating a dead horse, left hand has bone lacing and punches for more damage than the right hand made of metal? Speak of equal STR, of course, I know you can greatly enhance the right hand so its STR more than accounts for the DV difference between the limbs, but here we have 6 STR flesh and plastic laced bones punching harder than 6 STR titanium and ceramic. *shrug*. Just something that bothers me, and I thought I'd start a discussion.
-
So this is purely out of disbelief, and not as nerfing intent? Wouldn't it be better to think of some kind of explanation then, rather than nerfing character builds?
-
Now if you want to bitchslap 1-agi characters, yes, those deserve to be vetoed. Nobody with a 9-agi cyberlimb should be below 3 natural agi, and the same for Strength. But Cyberlimbs are designed to defy Augmented Maximum, and removing that just because you fear abuse is silly. Veto abuse, or veto them altogether, but do not restrict them in such a way that anyone taking them is screwing themselves over.
Is 3 the natural average for humans? I don't disagree at all, I'm only asking so I understand why. If a character concept is a close combat mage (let's say they only had stats of 2 Agi before), what would be reasonable to let them raise an arm too? Also, can mages cast touch spells through a cyber arm?
-
If they pay essence for it, it's a part of them. With the mage, that's a GM's judgement call, I'd let them have anywhere between 6 and 9, however getting them to be at least 3 isn't that much a deal.
-
Michael, it was while thinking about explanations for how thee limbs work so far above human maximum that I realized it just didn't jive.
And I don't think I've nerfed anything. Well, maybe the slightly ridiculous idea of a STR 3 character ending up with a STR 9 arm.
-
Exactly. You nerfed cyberlimbs by no longer letting them bypass Augmented Maximum, which they do by intended design.
-
That's not my goal at all.
A 4 STR character can still get a 9 STR with the limb, and a 6 STR can still have upwards of 13, they both just require a little extra expenditure. My way lets Muscle Replacement and Cyberlimb Enhancements stack, while making sure lower attribute characters don't munchkin up a cyberarm to 'cheat' their way to obscene stats.
It's a matter of where you put your money and Essence, I guess. RAW you get Customization above your current stat, and then stack on Enhancements, while I think it's the rest of your body that needs to be buffed up to better work in concert with you limb, so you get some implants and then stack on limb Enhancements.
RAW if you have STR 3 and buy an arm, it comes with STR 3, and you can pay extra to Customize it up to a 6; but if you start out with a 6 and buy an arm, it comes with STR 6 at no extra cost. And if you have some Muscle Replacements Rating 2, then that stock cyberarm operates at a lower level than the rest of your body. Hell, STR 6 character has Muscle Replacement 4, putting him at 6(10), gets his arm blown off by critically glitching a soak roll from a grenade, gets a cyberlimb replacement with maxed out STR +3, and has to use one less die when using that arm. My way, however, he Customized that arm all the way up to 10, and can then add +3 Enhancements on top of that. As a limiting factor you could say that Customization takes up Capacity for anything beyond Racial Maximum, so this character needs 4 pts each of AGL and STR to get the arm working at the same level as his body, and each of those are above 6, his Racial Max, so that's 8 pts of Capacity right there, he has only 7 more pts for AGL, STR, and Armor enhancements. That seems rather limited, but remember we are talking about an arm that is currently functioning at AGL 10 and STR 10, so having to make the hard choice of ONLY putting a further 3 Armor, +2 AGL, and +2 STR.
The only person who gets nerfed is the the 1 AGL character who wants an arm with 9 AGL and no other augmentations.
-
RAW you get Customization above your current stat, and then stack on Enhancements, while I think it's the rest of your body that needs to be buffed up to better work in concert with you limb, so you get some implants and then stack on limb Enhancements.
RAW and RAI.
RAW if you have STR 3 and buy an arm, it comes with STR 3, and you can pay extra to Customize it up to a 6; but if you start out with a 6 and buy an arm, it comes with STR 6 at no extra cost.
No, he'd still get an arm at 3.
And you don't seem to understand what the term nerf means. When you force a build to spend far more to get the same benefit, or give them less for the same cost, then you're nerfing them. Given the full upsides and downsides, and costs, of cyberlimbs, I do not consider it required myself.
-
I understand what nerfing means. And like I said, I think only the lower stat characters get nerfed, and in my opinion only in a reasonable way. Upper end stats actually make out better, are able to stack or much higher end results.
-
Actually, you said you weren't nerfing anything.
-
The only person who gets nerfed is the the 1 AGL character who wants an arm with 9 AGL and no other augmentations.
No, the "only" people who get nerfed are those who don't have their Strength/Agi (both if you want a fully-maxed out cyberlimb) hardcapped, as they suddenly need augmentations to get the same effect from their cyberlimb - something whose entire purpose is bypassing the need for augmentations. Even if you have Strength 5 and Agi 6, you'd still need to augment your Strength by +1 in order to get a 9/9 arm.
And yes, while it's also true that your houserule would allow for monstrosities like a Strength 11(15) Troll with a Strength 18 cyberarm, that doesn't negate the fact that people need to pay more to get the same bonus from their cyberlimbs as under RAW - so it's both a nerf and a gift to munchkins.
-
I'm also in the camp that believe cyberlimbs could do with some house rules, but I'm not a fan of the proposed change. In my opinion, cyberlimbs work just about right in the current iteration, but we've made some adjustments to the rules at our table:
1. Cyberlimbs affect inherent limits if and when the limb(s) are used in a task
2. Cyberlimbs affect movement rate as long as the character has at least two legs; for purposes of movement rate and running tests the characters AGI and STR stats are averaged across natural / augmented attributes and limbs (arm, arm, leg, leg, torso)
3. Hydraulic Jacks contribute dice equal to rating for purposes of running (as opposed to the 1 die contribution per RAW)
Nuyen and essence costs, availability, and general rules remain unaffected. Yes, these changes make cyberlimbs more effective, but we do not have any characters with AGI/STR 1 with the exception of 1, and said character has spent over 400k nuyen on replacing four limbs so we feel it evens out.
-
Well it's clear the consensus is from a game mechanic point of view this does not work.
From the perspective of making things work in my mind, it makes a lot more sense, and I reserve the right to be an obstinate twat. :)
-
Consensus? You do realize that martinchaen falls in the "cyberlimb attributes should affect more things" camp (which means he thinks they should be boosted), while others fall in the "cyberlimbs should be nerfed from orbit" camp? And there's a third camp, too - the "just veto cyberlimb-abusing characters". There is no consensus.
-
ZeConster I believe MadBear (please correct me if I'm wrong) meant that the consensus was that his proposal would not work.
And yes, I do indeed believe cyberlimbs should be boosted; for their cost, I do not believe they are cost effective under the current RAW. I also believe there is way too much room for interpretation, and would never play a character with cyberlimbs in a convention setting purely to avoid the headache of having to clarify with each individual GM about their views on cyberlimbs. The rules are too vague on what stats apply when for a character to reliably predict what individual GMs might interpret the rules as, in my opinion. I, for instance, do not agree that running or climbing requires "careful coordination" of all limbs; if my unmodified self can climb a vertical rope with nothing but my arms, the rules for climbing and cyberlimbs are way too situational for them to be worth the hassle.
Besides, for the same cost (400k and 5 Essence), you can get similar (or better, under RAW at least, with regards to limits and movement rate) benefits, which hardly seems appropriate.
-
Ze, I understand that cyberlimbs are one of the more contentious items in the game. However, the only people motivated enough to comment seemed to be from Martin's camp.
For the purposes of this form post, I'm fine with that; as in challenging me they forced me to to realize that the current RAW will tend to cluster cyber limb stats at around 9, while my proposal would tend to spread out the stats, with a much higher upper end, and potential abuse. I can deal with that abuse as a GM just as I could with abuse of un-nerfing Critical Strike with a house rule, as I intend.
There are many opinions being bandied about, mine and others, and that's how I take this, opinionated discussion.
-
Ze, I understand that cyberlimbs are one of the more contentious items in the game. However, the only people motivated enough to comment seemed to be from Martin's camp.
So I guess I don't count? Because I'm in camp 3. Plus I have my own proposed houserule for cyberlimbs, which prevents characters with Str/Agi 1 or 2 (pre-racial modifiers) from having a maxed out cyberlimb while still allowing the maximum cyberlimb bonus to be more than the augmentation limit.
-
No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?
-
No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?
Well, I could link you to three of the four times (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12438.msg229325;topicseen#msg229325) I've mentioned my proposed houserule (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14371.msg261949;topicseen#msg261949) in the past (one of them as part of a post listing several possible houserule for this (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12594.msg235413;topicseen#msg235413) in the houserule topic), but how about you read the time where I mentioned it in the third post of this very topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14369.msg261946#msg261946)?
-
Ah, there you are, I recall that proposal, I didn't remember that was you. And that came across to me as more of a 'your idea won't work' than 'there are more than one camp on how cyberlimbs work', but that could have been failure on my part to understand.
A first glance of the links you posted shows you've given this a great deal of thought, and I plan on reading the discussion further. But still, that is more of a game mechanic fix, which is perfect if that where you see the RAW flaw. My issue is less with that, than making things jive between meat and metal with a explanation that works for me. Clearly plenty of people have no problem with things as they stand, and others object, so for me at least, this is more of a 'this is how I'd do it' kind of thing. There are people with suspension of disbelief issues with grenades, or sniper rifles, or even DNIs, we all have our peculiarities, and focus on those things that glaring dont work for us.
As for my games, as I'm not the GM at the moment, I am playing RAW.
Reading replies in one thread, it seems A4BG and Xenon seem to agree at least part of my idea, setting the limbs attributes to the character's natural attribute, with a cost approximating that of Customization.
When I think about how these things are supposed to work, I see a mechanical prosthetic that is customzed to fit the user's body. And I have a problem with this customization taking a limb's attributes higher than those of the body. I don't have a problem with ending up with higher stats through Enhancements. So I'm not looking for statistical limitations. What you propose, ZeConster, seems to suggest that a cybernetic limb should only be able to function so much higher than it's flesh body without losing functionality, balance, or without ripping itself off. Not putting words in your mouth here, just an interpretation.
Another of my issues, as I've stated repeatedly, and no one has yet offered a solution after countering my suggestion, is how it it's possible for a maximum enhanced limb to do less unarmed damage than a flesh limb(with proper Bone Lacing). Then I got to thinking about how and why players purchase limbs for their characters. Not why the characters do it, why their payers do. For me, every character I've ever created who had such a limb lost their flesh one in battle, and either could not afford a cloned, or figured that if they lost Essense from a Deadly wound anyway, why not fill up that void with a limb? So for me, and this may be coloring my perspective here, limbs are not purchased to have a kick ass stat, they are an after thought, an accident, a repair. But then I realize there are many players who get them solely for the stat bump(and some because they are cool, etc). And for those characters, making a cyberlimb jive with a flesh limb is not an issue and RAW work just fine.
-
No, you simply had not given voice to your opinion as yet. I'm glad you're here, I'd love to have some more lively debate.
So what is your solution, Ze?
Well, I could link you to three of the four times (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12438.msg229325;topicseen#msg229325) I've mentioned my proposed houserule (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14371.msg261949;topicseen#msg261949) in the past (one of them as part of a post listing several possible houserule for this (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12594.msg235413;topicseen#msg235413) in the houserule topic), but how about you read the time where I mentioned it in the third post of this very topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14369.msg261946#msg261946)?
I've been following the cyberlimb discussion also...explains why I have seen the 'normalizing to racial baseline' idea a few times.
I like the give and take.
Give: (assuming I understood correctly) the troll would spend 3 points of customization to the max, instead of 7.
Take: minimum current attribute for various augments.
If I were to make a houserule I would include that.
Additionally I would make the baseline cyberlimbs match current values so someone heavily invested in STR and AGI wouldn't have to spend a lot in the customization phase, while those that skimped would have to spend a little more.
-
The base houserule I've been using would still require 7 points of customization for a Troll: the "treat racial minimum as 1" bit is only used to calculate how powerful a cyberlimb you can use, since it's there to prevent the Troll from going "I have Strength 5 (my racial minimum), and 5x3 = 15, so I can have a Strength 10+3 cyberarm without investing any attribute points in Strength".
Ignoring Exceptional Attribute (which I think you shouldn't take unless you soft/hardcap the attribute in question, in which case the best a cyberlimb can be compared to your natural value is +4 anyway), you basically have this:
| Metatype | Natural STR | max cyberlimb STR | | Metatype | Natural AGI | max cyberlimb AGI |
| Human/Elf | 1 | 3 | | non-Elf | 1 | 3 |
| Human/Elf | 2 | 6 | | non-Elf | 2 | 6 |
| Human/Elf | 3+ | 9 | | non-Elf | 3+ | 9 |
| Dwarf/Ork | 3 | 5 | | Elf | 2 | 4 |
| Dwarf/Ork | 4 | 8 | | Elf | 3 | 7 |
| Dwarf/Ork | 5+ | 11 | | Elf | 4+ | 10 |
| Troll | 5 | 7 |
| Troll | 6 | 10 |
| Troll | 7+ | 13 |
So there's no give, just a take (2 attribute points must be invested if you want to fully max out a cyberlimb's attribute; if you invest 1 attribute point, your cyberlimb's attribute can only go up to your natural maximum).
My post (in the houserule topic) does have the added idea of each metatype having a different cyberlimb base model (set to the race's version of 3/3), which has the same nuyen costs but a slightly lower Availability for non-humans, meaning that unlike in RAW, anyone can get a fully customized cyberlimb at chargen (under RAW, a Troll's 10/5 cyberlimb has Availability 13).
With your baseline cyberlimbs houserule idea, I'd make them a third cyberlimb category (working mostly the same as regular customized cyberlimbs; you could give them a fixed cost, give them a fixed cost that differs per metatype, or make their cost and availability go up with higher stats, but less than with normal customization), so people with low STR/AGI can still get a regular 3/3 cyberlimb without paying more than now.