Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Csjarrat on <01-18-14/0841:05>
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Hi guys, I tend to take pistols or machine pistols as the mainstay of all my characters but its getting a bit boring now, as its starting to get a bit mono-build.
I've got gun-haven 3 and thought i'd give some of the shotguns a try for my non-combat specialists.
I've got a dwarf hacker that is using the Krime Boss (accuracy 3 base, 15 round drum-fed SA shotty), with an internal smartgun (+vision mag), gas vent 3, flaslight and shock pad.
i figure it has a decent fire mode and with flechettes and a narrow/medium spread choke setting, your opponent is at -3 to-5 defense for a semi-auto burst, and you could potentially hit multiple targets, making it decent for close combats with choke points like hallways and doorways.
the -ve mods to defense offset the low accuracy limit, but you can always use a take aim action to raise your own dicepool and limit with the smartgun system, its vision mag helping to reduce range modifiers too.
I was interested in the falchion, as it has a higher damage, vastly higher accuracy, built in smartgun but more awkward re-load + lower ammo capacity.
SS does mean you don't need to worry about chewing through rounds that quickly and recoil isnt an issue however.
I can see this being handy on a techy character, as he can at least defend his own kit and not have it pwnd by an enemy decker and end up shooting his teammates in the back thanks to its "smartgun only" trigger mechanism.
The "shiawase rain" seems a bit pointless to me. lower accuracy, ammo capacity and damage kill it for me, but it is at least seriously cheap, making it a decent gun to give to mooks.
It is an almost identical carbon copy of the defiance T-250 {long barrel} though, which is a bit frustrating. I'd rather have the short barrel version of the T-250 and use it as a troll's side-arm (with metahuman adjustment and a smartgun/laser of course)
The enfield looks decent on paper, 24 round drum, SA/BF and high damage code. it needs a smartgun slapping on it to get to accuracy 6 though, and the 12F rating means it ain't exactly "portable".
There are quite a few break action shotguns in the new book and the PJSS-55 in the core book. They all have really good base accuracy, but only having two shots before a complex action reload seems a mite annoying really. Anyone use them on a PC or just for NPC's? anyone see something i'm missing on these?
so any success stories, tips or tricks or shotties would be much appreciated, ta!
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I still REALLY REALLY miss Big D shells. So I need to figure out how to stat out the rounds. >.> Damn good memories with Big D shells. Damn good.
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I have an Orc Decker I keep around for pick up games, uses an Ares Crusader for the most part, but also has a throwback sawn off PJSS slung across his back, and it's come in handy a couple of times.
Throwback means it can't be hacked, can't be jammed, sawn off makes it more concealable but fixes the choke at Medium. It's a last-ditch-dreck-hits-the-fan-oh-my-fragg-there's-a-ghoul-in-my-face kinda weapon, and it works perfectly for that. Very fun to use, too. It's got good accuracy at 6 so I don't worry about not having it Smartlinked, great damage with Flechette(13P), and the adjusted AP is only +4 which isn't too bad.. Heavy Pistol ranges and stuck on Medium Spread definitely means it's a short range weapon, but how often do Hackers need to take down goons at long range? That's what hacking is for(and why hackers make friends with Troll sammies). I've used it firing both barrels both times it's come out, and I won't ever do that again. According to the rules firing both barrels counts as a short burst, but invokes the Note Enough Bullets rule, so it only gives the target a -1 dice pool penalty. So not worth it. From now on, it's one barrel at a time, much more damage potential that way. I don't worry much about the long reload time, as he also has that machine pistol, and honestly, if he gets stuck in a protracted firefight, then he's doing something wrong. That's sammie work.
I love this gun, and am starting to look for reasons to take it out, it's so much more fun than using the Ares Crusader. And it's kinda unique. A lot of players look for the gun with the best stats, and end up with an Ares Predator, FN P93Praetor, and Ares Alpha. Cut and paste gear. I like guns with style.
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IMO shotguns are highly under rated for all the reasons you mention.
While it is true that with flichette ammo rules you are not generally going to kill the opposition, you are going to deny them ground (area suppression) as well as reduce the defence pools of a number of targets (choke/spread) which is invaluable.
Remember, the object of most runs is to get in, get the mcgruffin, and get out... not to kill everything that moves... and at the end of the day, security and KE have more guns, bodies AND bullets then the runners do :p Best to beat feet and lay down suppression fire then get into "kill counts"... and the shotgun is a great cheap, reliable means to suppression fire.
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The enfield looks decent on paper, 24 round drum, SA/BF and high damage code. it needs a smartgun slapping on it to get to accuracy 6 though, and the 12F rating means it ain't exactly "portable".
There are quite a few break action shotguns in the new book and the PJSS-55 in the core book. They all have really good base accuracy, but only having two shots before a complex action reload seems a mite annoying really. Anyone use them on a PC or just for NPC's? anyone see something i'm missing on these?
so any success stories, tips or tricks or shotties would be much appreciated, ta!
I took Longarms for access to both sniper rifles and shotguns, thinking of focusing primarily on sniping, but had to go with an Enfield due to low funds in my build. I love the thing; Acc 5 with laser sight or 6 with smartlink, semi-auto or burst fire, 24 rounds with the drum, and you can use slugs which have the standard ammo options (APDS and Stick-N-Shock being the two I use). So far, with the shotguns that have come out since, I haven't seen anything that I want to trade up for yet. I may just hang on to the Enfield, and upgrade it with additional options once the SR5 version of Arsenal comes out.
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Yeah, i like the look of the enfield, its just that its 12F compared to most of the others which are only R. I know it probably makes little difference if you get busted on a run, but at least you've got a chance of talking your way out of it if you get caught with it in the boot of your car or something
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Yeah, i like the look of the enfield, its just that its 12F compared to most of the others which are only R. I know it probably makes little difference if you get busted on a run, but at least you've got a chance of talking your way out of it if you get caught with it in the boot of your car or something
Very good point!
The legality of an item is the difference between "papers please" and <blam! Blam! Blam!> "Police! Freeze!!" <blam!>
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have to say, the more i look at the Krime Boss and Cavalier Falchion, the more i like them for a rigger/decker character. with a smartgun on there (not an issue as they'll be getting ware anyways they're high enough accuracy that they wont hit the limit very often and both pack quite a punch!
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They make good backup weapons for sniper characters because they both use Longarms, too.
Apparently being good at hitting targets a quarter mile away with a precision rifle also makes you good at hitting targets ten feet in front of you with a scatter-gun. ;D
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Hey, more accuracy = smaller crosshair = less spread = more damage!
...Oh wait, I'm thinking Borderlands now.
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Something to consider - fletchette rounds are the only way to hit multiple baddies without splitting your dice pool.
Sure ,against the big bad Red Samurai, it won't do much, but when a gang of Halloweeners have you outnumbered and cornered, there's few better ways to even the playing field a bit.
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And in many situations, flechette doing more damage AND doing it in stun is actually an advantage. Tanks have significantly smaller Stun Tracks and Stun ignores platelet factories too (I think). So a lot of targets will faint before they die. Unless they have pain editors etc. That's bad. :D
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While it is true that with flichette ammo rules you are not generally going to kill the opposition, you are going to deny them ground (area suppression) as well as reduce the defence pools of a number of targets (choke/spread) which is invaluable.
Remember, the object of most runs is to get in, get the mcgruffin, and get out... not to kill everything that moves... and at the end of the day, security and KE have more guns, bodies AND bullets then the runners do :p Best to beat feet and lay down suppression fire then get into "kill counts"... and the shotgun is a great cheap, reliable means to suppression fire.
Hm, I was under the impression that Shotguns with shot/flechette ammo reduce the targets Defense by a certain amount, but ONLY for that one shot.
You make it sound like it works like Suppression Fire, where everyone else also gets the benefit. It would be nice indeed if I could shoot a shotgun and cause my sammy to hit better and harder. But does it really work that way?
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Well they all avoid a ranged attack don't they, or at least try? So that's a -1. You don't add the choke dodge penalty to the next guy's shot, but that -1 adds up.
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Michael Chandra: "...but that -1 adds up."
It sure does! It is really interesting to see how combat evolves in 5th edition, at the start everyone is dogding left and right. Shots, punches, kicks and knives miss, but then after a few rounds it spirals down because of small modifiers that add up. I must say its really fun and shotguns are now a mainstay in our groups arsenal.
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'Just' two!? Michael, that adds up! Suurree. Two here. Then one there. AND THEN IT'S ALL OVER MICHAEL!! (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/04/1335044460032.jpg)
Note to self, consider using Choke on Enfield next time I actually get to play a Mission.
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'Just' two!? Michael, that adds up! Suurree. Two here. Then one there. AND THEN IT'S ALL OVER MICHAEL!! (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/04/1335044460032.jpg)
Dafuq did i just read? lol. funny, but i'm not sure why :-)
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Senfield
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Senfield
:o ;D
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'Just' two!? Michael, that adds up! Suurree. Two here. Then one there. AND THEN IT'S ALL OVER MICHAEL!! (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/04/1335044460032.jpg)
Dafuq did i just read? lol. funny, but i'm not sure why :-)
Annnd now I feel old.
But yeah, Seinfeld's a '90s sitcom that's often described as "a show about nothing", one I remember liking although I'm not sure why, and that comic (named "Roleplay About Nothing") is one a webcomic artist made a few years ago. I really like how they were able to capture the feel of the show - I, at least, read it in their voices.
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Wow - I didn't even watch Seinfeld all that much (it was too far advanced for me at the time), but I still know all of those tropes in the webcomic. It really does feel like I'm watching a scene from that show. So weird.
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ah! I know the name of the program but I don't think it aired much over here in the UK except on satellite TV (which I never had). Thanks for the feedback on shotguns guys, got a char in a pbp who'll be using one shortly!
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Just noticed the image doesn't have a name. http://fanboys-online.com/ everyone!
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ah! I know the name of the program but I don't think it aired much over here in the UK except on satellite TV (which I never had). Thanks for the feedback on shotguns guys, got a char in a pbp who'll be using one shortly!
You didn't miss anything. It's a show about overgrown man-children being petty, selfish, immature and extremely annoying. I never understood why people liked it. Same goes for Friends. It should have been called Upper Middle Class White Twenty-Somethings With First World Problems: The Series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3w1_E1V46M).
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(http://media.giphy.com/media/pMOOfcirTNAic/giphy.gif)
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You didn't miss anything. It's a show about overgrown man-children being petty, selfish, immature and extremely annoying. I never understood why people liked it. Same goes for Friends. It should have been called Upper Middle Class White Twenty-Somethings With First World Problems: The Series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3w1_E1V46M).
I liked Seinfeld but HATED Friends. Where does that put me?
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Wow - I didn't even watch Seinfeld all that much (it was too far advanced for me at the time), but I still know all of those tropes in the webcomic. It really does feel like I'm watching a scene from that show. So weird.
Did anyone else hear the characters' voices in your head when you were reading it?
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You didn't miss anything. It's a show about overgrown man-children being petty, selfish, immature and extremely annoying.
Well, there's a reason the series ended with all of them in prison essentially because of those traits. :P
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I had a player with a full auto shotgun in 4e that was the avatar of murder. ended up hitting him with influence "shoot your team mate" you should have seen the players faces drop. No one died but there was edge spent that night
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Sledge, the Troll Beefstick/Wheelman, liked his Remington Roomsweeper as it was "just like using my fist. At range!"
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Sledge, the Troll Beefstick/Wheelman, liked his Remington Roomsweeper as it was "just like using my fist. At range!"
Lmao.
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I think Shotties are great! I like how they can attack multiple enemies. With the AS-7 on Burst Fire and Wide Choke, you can get -11 dice penalty on three targets at once, with your full die pool, or something like that. Spend an Edge and the damage gets pretty nasty.
I made a Decker who has a pair of cyberarms. One has his cyberdeck, the other a cybershotgun. Both are armored, just in case. He's never unarmed, and has long range skills with a shotgun or sniper rifle using the same skill group. Versatility is awesome. Only problem is that people think he's the Sammy.
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I'm a true convert to shotguns having just used an Enfield AS-7 with flechette on wide choke and Long Burst down an apartment corridor at some gangers.
Even with -5DV, a total AP of +4 and -3 to my attack pool due to recoil and range, plus LB & WC being nerfed to not fully stack on defence penalties, I still put three lined coat wearing gangers on the floor at -2, -2 & -3 wound penalties.
Awesome room clearance weapon. Could do with bigger clips though... might switch to the drums even though it'd take 2 initiative passes to reload.
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I'm a true convert to shotguns having just used an Enfield AS-7 with flechette on wide choke and Long Burst down an apartment corridor at some gangers.
Even with -5DV, a total AP of +4 and -3 to my attack pool due to recoil and range, plus LB & WC being nerfed to not fully stack on defence penalties, I still put three lined coat wearing gangers on the floor at -2, -2 & -3 wound penalties.
Awesome room clearance weapon. Could do with bigger clips though... might switch to the drums even though it'd take 2 initiative passes to reload.
Welcome to the Dark Side 8) have a cookie!
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Why wouldn't Burst Fire / Full Auto stack with Choke settings?
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Why wouldn't Burst Fire / Full Auto stack with Choke settings?
I think they probably do and should, but I wasn't certain and was feeling a little over-powered catching a relatively shadowrun inexperienced GM out with a perfect combo for the circumstances, on what I'm discovering maybe more of a combat monster than I thought.
My previous character was a 4E Jack of all Trades who confined himself to a Warhawk and only had an OK pool. So the idea of effectively dropping three people with one action was a little :o
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On average, you're not going to kill anyone with a single blast from a shotgun; drop them to the ground, yes, but not kill.
At worst, mooks have 10 boxes on their track. They're likely to have at least BOD 3, and wear some kind of armor of which the worst (Armored Clothing) is AV6.
You mentioned -5 DV and wide spread, which would put them at medium range and would have given them a -5 to defense. Assuming Wide Spread and Burst fire didn't stack, the average AGI 3 REA 3 is down to 1 die, or 0 dice if they do.
Given that the Enfield AS-7 has a maximum of 5 hits possible (6 if you swap the laser sight for a smartlink) unless you were using Edge, this means the targets have to resist anywhere from (13-5)+[1,2,3,4,5]= [9,10,11,12,13]DV with BOD 3 + AV 6 (or more) + AP 4 dice. This gives them a reasonable chance to, well, not die, at least.
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It isn't always about killing...
Making s group of mooks scatter/drop prone so your team can get away is always a "win" to a smart team.... while a drawn out fire fight usually means your screwed....
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Oh, I absolutely agree, Reaver; I was merely pointing out that there's a difference between "hurt" and "kill" :)
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See, I wasn't sure what Ghoulfodder meant. The post said:
-2, -2 & -3 wound penalties
Which I think is totally plausible for a shotgun. If it knocks them down, remember that they have to roll a Body + Willpower (2) test to stand back up, wound penalties apply.
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On average, you're not going to kill anyone with a single blast from a shotgun; drop them to the ground, yes, but not kill.
At worst, mooks have 10 boxes on their track. They're likely to have at least BOD 3, and wear some kind of armor of which the worst (Armored Clothing) is AV6.
You mentioned -5 DV and wide spread, which would put them at medium range and would have given them a -5 to defense. Assuming Wide Spread and Burst fire didn't stack, the average AGI 3 REA 3 is down to 1 die, or 0 dice if they do.
Given that the Enfield AS-7 has a maximum of 5 hits possible (6 if you swap the laser sight for a smartlink) unless you were using Edge, this means the targets have to resist anywhere from (13-5)+[1,2,3,4,5]= [9,10,11,12,13]DV with BOD 3 + AV 6 (or more) + AP 4 dice. This gives them a reasonable chance to, well, not die, at least.
Smartgunned it. We ruled LB and WC didn't fully stack, rather than -10, we gave them -8 which I was plenty happy with. Left them with no defence pool and iirc I got a disappointing 4 hits off 16 dice (wireless on - wasn't worried about being hacked there). Putting them on resisting 14P with something like 16 dice. Two took six boxes and one took nine boxes.
They were then stuck lying on the floor in a corridor between me and the rest of the team they'd been trying to get at in an apartment. That was my character's introduction to the crew. :D
See, I wasn't sure what Ghoulfodder meant. The post said:
-2, -2 & -3 wound penalties
Which I think is totally plausible for a shotgun. If it knocks them down, remember that they have to roll a Body + Willpower (2) test to stand back up, wound penalties apply.
We're still a little ropey on the rules and we forgot about that so ruled that it took their entire move to pick themselves up. Hence why it was so easy to then finish them off. They were still in exactly the same doomed position as when I dropped them on their faces in the first place.
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Smartgunned it. We ruled LB and WC didn't fully stack, rather than -10, we gave them -8 which I was plenty happy with. Left them with no defence pool and iirc I got a disappointing 4 hits off 16 dice (wireless on - wasn't worried about being hacked there). Putting them on resisting 14P with something like 16 dice. Two took six boxes and one took nine boxes.
If you think 4 hits on 16 dice is disappointing, I'd offer you a piece of advice; change your expectations, otherwise you're going to be disappointed rather frequently.
It might not be mathematically average (5.33 is the average number of dice greater than 4 on 16 6-sided dice), but the Bitch Goddess of Luck will rarely provide you mathematically average rolls no matter what ;)
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Nailing someone down in one shot is generally pretty rare anyways. Putting one dude down in two turns or three dudes down in three turns, I feel the latter has the advantage, even if it means taking one extra person's worth of fire for a turn (though they would have wound penalties, mind you)