Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Quatar on <01-30-14/0426:02>
-
Ok, silly title, I apologize ;)
But I'm looking through the weapon list to decide what weapon I'll screw onto my drone as a Rigger, and I'm wondering why I'd want to use an SMG instead of an Assault Rifle. Or why anyone ever would. Or a Machine Pistol for that matter
They use the same skill.
Even the best SMG has lower damage than the worst AR.
No SMG has AP, all AR have -2
They have 4 or 5 base-accuracy, same as most AR.
The ONE reason I could see people use a SMG for is money. Some SMG come with Smartgun System and Gas Vent 2, and still cost less than the AK 97. (I'm ignoring the Cold M23 for now)
But I can upgrade the AK-97 with a smartlink and Gas Vent 3 for 800 bucks, 1750 total. That's still very much in the affordable range.
So ok, if I wanted to use my Drone solely for Suppressive Fire, it would probably be better to use an SMG. But then I don't need the Gas Vent system, and the AK-97 is only 1150, and if I ever use it to actually hit someone, I'll do proper damage.
I just dunno. I'm missing something obvious, or are SMGs and Machine Pistols mostly in there so a GM can equip a couple gangbangers?
-
Concealability. You can't just go walking around with an Assault Rifle, well... Damn near ever. Obvious weapons are a very, very serious problem in a lot of circumstances.
For drones, that's less of a thing, but still.
-
Ah that was quick. Thank you
See, I knew, I'd missed something obvious.
-
KE usually doesn't tho, so keep those AR's well hidden! :D
There's more to weapons than damage and really every weapon has it's use in the game. You can conceal SMG's in public, but you might not be able to get them into higher places where you'll be patted down - but they usually will let Light Pistols in, maybe even Heavies (if it's a maffia meet or sg less official).
Also Range is important too - think Sniper Rifles and Machine Guns. Killing or Suppressing from far can be a very powerful tool.
-
Also, someone who only takes a single cyberarm would want a one-handed weapon.
-
also smg is shorter so irl it is beter for cqc when you cut a corner , a carabin is allmost as good but the permit irc is higer
-
I've no idea what cqc means
Also most Assault Rifles, or well at least some of them, are only 4R, so having the right fake permits for them shouldn't be such an issue, right?
Also, considering the Weapon Mount for a drone is already highly illegal (8F) I don't know if it makes a huge difference then if you got an Ingram Smartgun X or AK-97 attached to it. Both are probably gonna raise eyebrows.
-
CQC means close quarters combat. Buildings, some urban enviroments etc.
The issue isn't legality, it's visibility and size. In a lot of situations you're trying to smuggle your hardware in, not pass a police inspection (and in a lot neighbourhoods, just raising suspicion is enough, it won't matter if you had the "right" papers. You're flagged as suspicious so kiss your stakeout or kidnapping or whatever goodbye.
Weapon Mounts are illegal, yes. If anything with weapon mounts comes into play you're already doing highly illegal activities.
-
One reason that the adept in my party uses SMGs is for dual-wielding. She gets 18 dice in her pool, potentially boosted with Attribute Boost, and splits the pool. When paired with APDS ammo, it makes for a nasty attack against most enemies.
-
Drones that already have weapon mounts aren't always illegal though, so for those a Restricted gun is useful.
Namikaze, don't forget dual-wielding without dual-firing. :) Fire one, then the other, repeat, for combining RC.
-
Namikaze, don't forget dual-wielding without dual-firing. :) Fire one, then the other, repeat, for combining RC.
Sssh! Our adept player might hear you and get a bright idea. :)
-
The Steyr TMP machine pistol is as good or better than all but the Ingram X SMG and the forbidden Praetor. There is no reason aside from willingly choosing an inferior product to not use the Steyr over every SMG except the Ingram.
The Ingram is of course inferior to even the worst ARs so there's not much point in using IT, since a primary Assault Skill loadout can be an AR and an MP as a backup with close and long range covered and the ability to shove the MP into a concealed holster.
-
Not sure why you draw that conclusion. The Praetor, HK-227 and SCK have better Accuracy than the Steyr, and the Praetor, Ingram and SCK have better damage. Also, I'm not sure what the point of a concealed holster for one firearm is if you're also carrying an assault rifle.
-
4 (6) accuracy with a smartlink should be enough unless you are throwing 18+ die in your Automatics test.
SCK is not an option for me currently since it lacks Full Auto, which is an extremely good option for an automatic. The only SMGs with 8 damage that have full auto are the Ingram and the Praetor, and the Praetor is a Forbidden item.
The point of the concealed holster is that you can carry the MP around normally, totally negating the need for Pistols skill. You can put it in a Quick-Draw holster for runs if you'd prefer.
-
4 (6) accuracy with a smartlink should be enough unless you are throwing 18+ die in your Automatics test.
That's not how probability works. At 14 dice, you miss out on 0.15 average hits with Accuracy 6 versus 7 (and 0.20 average hits versus 8): with 16 it becomes 0.27 and 0.39, with 18 it's 0.40 and 0.62.
SCK is not an option for me currently since it lacks Full Auto, which is an extremely good option for an automatic. The only SMGs with 8 damage that have full auto are the Ingram and the Praetor, and the Praetor is a Forbidden item.
"Not an option for me" and "no reason to use it" are two entirely different things.
-
Like I said, there is no good reason aside from willingly choosing an inferior product to use the SCK. Without FA it is flat worse than the Ingram, period.
-
It really isn't, unless your fights always consist of a single Initiative Pass.
-
Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK. Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.
-
I think the point that ZeConster is trying to make is "different strokes for different folks." The point you seem to making is the same, but with a little less... understanding. Perhaps dial back the hostility and defensive posturing?
-
On drones there really isn't a reason why you should go SMG over assault rifle.
But as many have already mentioned as a personal weapon the advantage of a SMG lies in concealbility, but here machine pistols win out. While damage is almost the same as machine pistols FA makes a huge difference as you can do suppressive fire.
The Ingram trumps the SCK both in fire modes and firearm mods from the moment you buy it. The Ingram comes with both sound suppressor and recoil compensation. And is cheaper. The SCK of course has higher accuracy.
But the biggest selling point of the Ingram for me is how it looks.
But again that's personal taste ^^
-
Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK. Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.
My point was that your statement was shortsighted, just like your new statement is. The SCK has both the highest damage and highest Accuracy you can get in an SMG without it being illegal, and unlike the Ingram, it can fire in SA mode, which also has its uses. The Ingram certainly has its advantages over the SCK, but the SCK definitely isn't "flat worse than the Ingram, period" - you're just not interested in the advantages it has to offer over the Ingram, and for some reason you turned this into them not existing.
-
A loaded out Steyr was the choice for my phys ad. Lets me fire a concealable FA weapon with automatics, that way I didn't need to take pistols skill. With a smartgun, and my improved accuracy, I've never lost any hits. Good damage, full auto, great little gun.
-
Ok....well luckily the Ingram also has a burst fire mode and is still better than the SCK. Please explain how the SCK is better than the Ingram X since that seems to be the point you're trying to make.
It's better *in some circumstances* because it offers higher accuracy, making it more effective in the hands of a skilled operator. Throw on a GV3, and it actually offers double the non-mounted RC of the Ingram, making it better overall for sustained fire (which matters a hell of a lot more than FA fire, which you would never use for sustained fire).
Full Auto has it's uses, sure, but overall it doesn't make a weapon better - in a sustained firefight, being limited to that or burst fire actually makes a weapon worse than being limited to semi-auto or burst; the SCK in the hands of, say, a Strength 5(7) human can sustain fire for up to 8 initiative passes before any penalty is suffered, while the Ingram can only sustain for 2 initiative passes before penalty in the hands of the same shooter. If said shooter uses the smartgun in wireless mode, has Agility 5(7) and Automatics 6 and is against a target with Reaction+Intuition 8, that means that over 9 passes the SCX delivers 8*(8+2.33) damage against the Ingram's 6*(8+3), or 82.64 vs 66. That's before bringing Accuracy into play, and it's delivering roughly an extra two boxes of damage per action. Oh, and after those 9 phases, the Ingram is down to 5 bullets in the mag against the SCK's 22.
-
I assume for those 8 init passes that person is just shooting a single shot each, right? Otherwise not sure how anyone could last for 8 IP.
Though if you're going for single shots each round, why not get your hand on a SS weapon instead of SA? (Ok granted, 8 IP is quite plenty usually)
-
Because that SS weapon doesn't give you the freedom to fire bursts instead. But yes, if you're never going to fire bursts, a Ruger Super Warhawk may serve you better than any machine pistol or SMG.
-
I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).
Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.
-
True, mods allow for some weird stuff (my favorite thought experiment in 4th edition was the full-automatic sniper rifle).
-
I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).
Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.
Part of my point, actually, is that full-auto is not as valuable as you might think.
-
Accuracy is a big deal for my character, which is why I, since I can only use lasersights, nearly never use Shotguns. At 17 dice I really need an Accuracy of 8 or 9, though 7 will suffice with Take Aim. Not without though, not at 17% to lose me 1+ hits.
And only a Steel Lynx with a Gas-Vent 3 Ares Alpha can properly handle FA, being able to fire 2 FA short bursts before having to take a recoil break.
-
I see your points, I often discount Accuracy in favor of other things (DP, full auto ability).
Once mod rules are released it won;t matter anyway.
Part of my point, actually, is that full-auto is not as valuable as you might think.
Maybe not, but having the ability to do suppressive fire isn't something I'd be willing to give up which is why automatics without FA mode aren't something I consider.
-
Exactly. You. ;)
-
Right...anything anyone posts is their opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong. It's good to see things from others' perspectives so you can reevaluate your own thoughts. For example, I'm interested in hearing other's feelings on fire modes to see if it changes my "only Automatics Skill guns with full auto" train of thought since there are many, many guns I don't even look at as options.
-
There's a big difference between stating your personal preference and stating your opinion in a way that you cannot understand someone else would ever think otherwise. I'm glad you're finally showing an understanding that it's a matter of personal preference.
That said, I'm a number person myself so won't come with arguments. The way I see it, the arguments I use are in clear sight for everyone, namely rounds of fire vs hitting chance benefits.
-
From the 5e book, pg 420 "concealing gear"
+2 SMG, machine pistol with folding stock extended, medkit, small drone, extendable baton (extended), stun baton
+6 Katana, monosword, shotgun, assault rifle, sport rifle, crossbow
That +/- 4 swing in conceal-ability is pretty much why you'd use an SMG over an Assault rifle. They are both capable of FA in most cases, do decent damage, are pretty accurate on the most part, and you can offset lower AP by filling it full of APDS.
Biggest thing for me though is that you can sling an SMG over your back, stick on your lined coat over the top and you're at 0 modifiers to hide that gun. anyone decent at palming is gonna get past checkpoints with ease. try that with an AR :-)
-
There's a big difference between stating your personal preference and stating your opinion in a way that you cannot understand someone else would ever think otherwise. I'm glad you're finally showing an understanding that it's a matter of personal preference.
That said, I'm a number person myself so won't come with arguments. The way I see it, the arguments I use are in clear sight for everyone, namely rounds of fire vs hitting chance benefits.
I am asking honestly and curiously, can you lay out your thinking regarding rounds of fire vs. hitting chance? Do you have stats that back up probability of Accuracy vs. defender penalites, for example? Like I said, I truly do want to see from others' point of view - maybe I should preface every post I make here with that :)
-
Accuracy probabilities are easy, I got my Accuracy Tables (http://tinyurl.com/acctables) for that, which state that the chance to score X+ hits with Y dice (so the chance X-1 as limit is insufficient) as a 1:X odds.
As for hitting chances with offensive dice and bursts, I posted those before in a debate where someone argued having recoil automatically reset each IP wouldn't matter balance-wise, and not really that interested in throwing a lot of numbers around.
If you want to compare odds with limits, go to http://www.anydice.com and use this:
output [highest of 0 and [lowest of 7 and 14d{0,0,1}]-6d{0,0,1}]
Here 7 is the Accuracy, 14 is the offensive dice and 6 is the defensive (after penalties) dice. The result shows you what odds at what amount of net hits you have. You can change those amounts to compare different burst-types and different dicepools.
-
Thank you, very interesting. Do you have a set Limit for Phys/Social/Mental that seems to be the sweet spot, and weapon accuracy as well? At what point do you reach diminishing returns?
-
As one of my Mr. Johnson's puts it, "The right tools for the right job. Now, which tools, I mean Shadowrunners, are available?"
-
Would adding ap-1 to SMGs be unbalanced?
My reasoning is that machine pistols fire light pistol ammo while SMGs fire the equivalent to heavy pistol ammo.
Adding ap -1 would bring SMGs closer being the between machine pistols and assault rifles.
If others have suggested this already then please forgive me for repeating it without quotations.
-
I don't think they fire heavy pistol ammo b/c those are really large calibers; but the -1 would put them between AR's a MP's. I'm not sure if it would be balanced or not tho.
-
Would adding ap-1 to SMGs be unbalanced?
My reasoning is that machine pistols fire light pistol ammo while SMGs fire the equivalent to heavy pistol ammo.
Adding ap -1 would bring SMGs closer being the between machine pistols and assault rifles.
If others have suggested this already then please forgive me for repeating it without quotations.
From a rules perspective, I don't think it would be unbalanced. Logistically though, it doesn't make sense. Most SMGs in the world fire smaller-caliber ammunition (9mm for example). Heavy pistols generally fire calibers like .45ACP, which is very different. There's nothing to say that Run and Gun might not have rules for making this kind of modification to a gun though. They did something similar in Arsenal with changing the rounds used to high-speed projectiles.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP
A very popular real world submachine gun that uses forty five caliber rounds. It's far from unheard of for SMGs to use heavier rounds.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP
A very popular real world submachine gun that uses forty five caliber rounds. It's far from unheard of for SMGs to use heavier rounds.
Very true. But also I never said it was unheard of. Just rare. The UMP is popular in large part because of the larger-than-average round. I honestly don't know why this point was brought up at all. It's not like anyone said something like "all SMGs use 9mm ammunition!" or "there's no such thing as an SMG that fires heavy ammunition!"
-
You said that logistically it doesn't make sense. I was just pointing out that it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submachine_guns
That link also lists a number of SMGs and while yes, most of them use smaller caliber rounds, quite a few of them use heavier than nine millimeter, some even used scaled down assault rifle ammunition. It's far from rare.
-
OMG, this is a stupid point to try to bring up. I don't know why you would bring up something like this, unless you're trying to get a reaction out of me. You got your reaction, I'm done. What I said is accurate, what you said is accurate. I don't understand this need to try to make your bones on this board by nitpicking.
-
Wow. Damn dude, there is really no need to go so insanely overboard defensive. I just tried to point out one minor fact about the ubiquity of heavier caliber submachine guns.
-
It's never stated what ammo any of the firearms use aside from "Light Pistol" "Heavy Pistol' "SMG" etc. Plenty of what would be light pistols use heavy rounds, and heavy pistols use light rounds in the real world. I guess that's why weapons in the same category have differing damage codes.
-
The inference to caliber can be most easily found in the Assault Rifle and Machine Gun categories, where the lowest and highest damage codes of the ARs match those of the LMGs and MMGs, respectively, with HMGs outranking all of the current ARs by a hair.
This is a fair comparison to real world ARs and MGs of similar calibers; a 5.56mm AR and MG (LMG) would have similar damage potential firing the same round, as would those firing the same 7.62mm round (MMG). It's only when you go to much larger calibers (12.7mm or .50 cal, or higher) that you see a bump in damage values (HMGs).
This is somewhat in line with the damage values of the Ranger Arms, a presumably large-caliber rifle. We have no direct Shadowrun analogy to the real-world Barret M82A1 as of yet, so we'll have to wait and see if other sniper rifles also end up with that elusive 14P DV; I'm sure DV is not JUST a result of relative caliber, but caliber certainly seems to be a factor.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP
A very popular real world submachine gun that uses forty five caliber rounds. It's far from unheard of for SMGs to use heavier rounds.
The Thompson Submachine Gun (Tommy Gun) is another SMG that is chambered for the .45ACP.
-
The Thompson Submachine Gun (Tommy Gun) is another SMG that is chambered for the .45ACP.
I can't believe I missed that one. That's one of the most iconic weapons to ever exist.
-
This is the reason I'd choose an SMG over an Assault Rifle.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BriefcaseBlaster
To boot, you can fit one in a large smuggling cyber part, making it much, much harder to discover. I believe the conceal ability becomes a -8 for the limb it's stashed in, and without a proper cyberscanner, you'd never detect it. And the Cyberscanners are just Millimeter Wave machines, which IRL don't penetrate skin. You'd never know it was there without dismantling the limb.
If you're on a run anyway, grab a Praetor, load it full of APDS and mod it with Gas Vent III, then put a gyromount on your strength 9 (or 11) cyberarm for yo bad self. Now you've got upwards of 11 points of recoil compensation, and you look like any old joe when you walk into the Corp headquarters. Great for a stealth mission that might require some firepower once your shmooze your way to the back, or for the Face/Assassin that might make a loud getaway. And wouldn't it be great to talk your way into the security server room and just hose it down? I think that would be a fantastic way to start a smash-and-grab.
Also nice for a truly terrifying high class bodyguard.
And don't forget, most corp security relies on SMGs. The bullets don't go through good walls like an AR might, meaning less damage that the corp needs to clean up. That means that if you need a combat reload, you can probably find ammo on the guys you've gotta drop. Sometimes that's important.
As for Machine Pistols, with a Lined Coat and a concealable holster, you've got a concealment of -4, good enough to pack full-auto fire nearly anywhere you go. Don't forget that Suppressed opponents have a -Hits penalty to all their actions! This is great for making a getaway or for buying time for your fellow runners to act. Also pretty awesome when you're on the back of a motorcycle, the suppression fire hits everyone in the target vehicle! Machine Pistols also fit in Cyber holsters, making them quick-draw champs.
Shadowrun it not like our old friend DnD. The biggest and loudest guns have their place, and that place is the Barrens and the jungle. It is not downtown Seattle, where Knight Errant is gonna wandering-encounter your machine gun lugging butt.
-
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BriefcaseBlaster
Exists in Arsenal, likely will be in Run&Gun.
By the way, Ballistic Shields also might go nicely with SMGs for guards.
-
Cyberarm gyromount also let you run n gun with a smaller-than-assault-rifle-weapon without negative dice pool modifier. Great for any pistol, machine pistol or SMG ;)