Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: voydangel on <11-19-10/0001:02>
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To cut down on dice rolling during combat, you could drop Damage
Resistance Tests entirely, reducing combat to a single Opposed Test. In this
case, Armor would deduct directly from the attack’s DV.
Has anyone used this under the current rules set? How has it affected your game? I really like the concept, but it seems to me that with the amount of armor that can be stacked under current RAW you would have a very large amount of shots that just harmlessly bounce off of people. Does anyone have any other house rules that are similar to this that they find actually work well? And finally, does anyone else find it annoying/unbalancing that a starting standard PC can easily net about 14/10 (plus or minus 3 to 5 for body rating) armor? How do you streamline the excessive dice rolling (20+ dice on a soak roll)? Do you house rule armor stacking?
All comments welcome.
And yes, this topic is inspired by a few other threads, I just didn't want to threadjack. ;)
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Yeah. . . before I used that option, I'd have to implement a couple house rules (HR) along these lines:
1. No armor is considered cumulative except the "Outfit Components" (within a single clothing line), helmets and shields.
2. The SecureTech PPP System is considered a "Component Outfit" (PPP segments are cumulative with one another).
Note that due to HR1, PPP wouldn't stack with, say, an armor jacket, only with other PPP, per HR2.
I don't even know if that would resolve the issue better than just buying hits.
My theory, if a DP>16, buy the hits.
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So the streamlined version would be:
To-hit=Agi+Weapon skill vs Rea (+dodge for full defense)
DV=Base DV+net hits above-AP-armor?
That makes armor VERY powerful, three to four times as powerful.
Under normal circumstances, armor 15-16 is good for -5DV rolling and -4DV buying. Add 2 each for Reaction and Body and you've pretty much sucked up the base damage from a burst as-is (call it -9DV). Change that from -9 to -20 and combat is going to get VERY long against weapons while remaining painfully short against spells. In fact, this would put spellcasting off by a large enough margin to make it unbalancing, even if Counterspelling is treated like armor. Remember that after the base DV is accounted for, something like 10% of the initial shooty dice pool will translate to increased damage.
On the other hand, if one or both sides want to buy successes, that's great by me.
I'd even be ok with something like this: (normal dice pool modifiers on both sides apply and either or both sides may elect to buy hits)
Single opposed test of Attribute+ability+modifiers vs Rea+Armor+Body. Damage=DV +/- net hits.
You could abbreviate it even farther if you really wanted to:
Simple test Attribute+Ability-(Rea+Armor+body). If the number is positive, the attacker rolls and Damage=DV+net hits. If the number is negative, the defender rolls and damage=DV-net hits.
The second one penalizes the use of Edge, since dice are just plain cancelled so use the more normal combat rules or option 1 when Edge is spent.
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So the streamlined version would be:
To-hit=Agi+Weapon skill vs Rea (+dodge for full defense)
DV=Base DV+net hits above-AP-armor?
That makes armor VERY powerful, three to four times as powerful.
Under normal circumstances, armor 15-16 is good for -5DV rolling and -4DV buying. Add 2 each for Reaction and Body and you've pretty much sucked up the base damage from a burst as-is (call it -9DV). Change that from -9 to -20 and combat is going to get VERY long against weapons while remaining painfully short against spells. In fact, this would put spellcasting off by a large enough margin to make it unbalancing, even if Counterspelling is treated like armor. Remember that after the base DV is accounted for, something like 10% of the initial shooty dice pool will translate to increased damage.
This is why I said I would only even consider the optional rule IF you add in the other house rules I mentioned. Namely, get rid of all instances where armor adds up except for helmets and shields. Heck, turn shields into what they really are, a modifier to your Reaction roll, shields help avoid, not absorb, hits.
Now, the best armor in the game gives you 18/16, yeah, it's still massive, but it's Availability 20F, 30kĄ armor, it should be beast to take him down. APDS in a Barrett Model 121 will still reduce that 18 to 10 and with DV 9P + Net hits, the punk in the armor will be hurting in the morning.
That being said, buying hits is still the more consistent, more elegant solution, though I'm starting to think "armor subtracts directly from damage" seems a bit more realistic, if not mechanics-friendly. After all, a guy in military grade heavy armor should safely ignore anything short of anti-vehicle and high armor-penetration. DV - (Modified Armor Rating) reflects that better than DV - Hits.(Modified Armor Rating + Body). Does definitely make it a less lethal game, though.
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There are still a ton of options, many inexpensive, that either cut armor in half or negate it altogether.
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Use flashbangs+stun+smoke grenades to approach and slice them in meelee. Let your mage go Astral, and slaughter them with mana spells. Drive them over with an armored or remotely controled car. Have a sniper take them out with called shots to unarmored areas...
Tinkering with the armor system would be a bit tricky, since it's connected with other core mechanic rules. If you change soak rules, you also need to change change resistance rules of all kind. And matrix rules, magic rules, structure damage rules. Too much work, if the problem is just 'PC/NPC unkillable'. There are no immortal enemies. Only ineffective ways of dealing with them. Even an armored, cybered troll juggernaut can be easily dropped by hacking his cyberware, or by casting one spell on him...
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Let your mage go Astral, and slaughter them with mana spells.
You can't target them with mana spells from the astral unless they're astrally present. An aura isn't a target.
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).
If it's a honking Troll adept with mystic armor 5 in Heavy Military Armor with a Military Helmet, you need to go through that 24/22 armor somehow (including the use of direct spells cast in the meat).
If he's a mage using astral perception or astral projection, then he's dual-natured, and you can go to town. But, short of that, no metahuman (ghouls are critters :P) is dual-natured.
All that aside, the rest of your advice is spot on.
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Chaemera: Can't you use a Manaball by pinpointing auras, or something like that. What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?
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Chaemera: Can't you use a Manaball by pinpointing auras, or something like that. What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?
Its still the Same The Aura alone is no valid Target for LOS ,not from the Astral Space !!
(Plane Separation is like Vegas: what is said in Vegas ,stays in Vegas: what is cast in the Astral stays in the Astral !! )
He who dances in Las Veags
Medicineman
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I need to re-read the rules. Too much WoD to GM of late.
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What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?
Indirect Combat spells must always be physical, as they create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Physical Manipulation Spells afect specific physical forms, and so must all be physical spells.
Only mana spells can affect astral forms.
mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.
Cool concept, but doesn't work. If it's an indirect combat spell knocking over the lamp post, it's a physical spell and has to be cast in the meat. If it's a manipulation spell, to affect a non-living object it has to be a physical manipulation spell (and thus a physical spell) and has to be cast in teh meat. If it's a mana spell, it can be cast on the astral, but it can't affect non-living targets (which are heavily implied as not having astral forms, if not out-right stated as not having them) and it can only affect astral forms, as previously mentioned.
EDITED
For cleaning of random mis-typing.
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As someone pointed out, magic acid works to destroy armor. Also, nanites are a royal pain to deal with (just the armor eating kind are nasty). And a sniper shot with the MP guass rifle is really unpleasant (half armor THEN -4 AP).
Not to mention the sonic rifle completely ignores armor. The range is pretty close, though. Send a drone in with one.
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Yes, armor can be broken through even if it directly subtracts hits. Any armor can be with enough power. Its a big change in gasmeplay, though, to go from an average of -6 DV for a given armor to -18. The first thing it does is give Direct spells a huge boost since they ignore armor. So now not only can your Mage cat all day, he's your biggest gun. Second, it means that only combat monsters have a real chance of inflicting damage. Your pistol wielding Face, with burst and Smartgun, might get a point through an armored coat now and then. That actually makes combat take longer because the smaller damage means more IP's before someone falls over. . . unless you have mages or chemical weapons, who can still end someone every IP.
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I don't like the idea of SR combat lasting longer. Not only does it take away a lot of flavor, it takes away from some of the fun of the game if you drag out combat too long.
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The origin of the thread was streamlining combat. Unfortunately, armor=hits reduces rolling without actually shortening combat. I remember back in the 2050's when damage that got through armor seemed to be 1-2P (Light) or 25+ (Power 8-10 Deadly+5). So the heavies were dropping one guy per action and everyone else might as well have been spectators.
Then again we didn't have no Stick'n'shock, either and our vehicles ran on tires full of air, AIR I tell ya.
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Then again we didn't have no Stick'n'shock, either and our vehicles ran on tires full of air, AIR I tell ya.
Lol at this. ^
I use this optional rule in my game and it's worked fine for a while. I've had to make armor limited to only stacking body pieces and accessories like helmets and shields.
My players (surprisingly) aren't really armor trolls, so I haven't had too much trouble on that end. In my opinion it speeds up combat alot.
I imagine it would take twice as long to roll damage each time someone hit. I do however roll resistance for spells due to the nature of them being super powerful already anyways. (On that note, I've also added dodge rolls for physical spells. Balances em out a little. ::))
edit: typos suck
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Then again we didn't have no Stick'n'shock, either and our vehicles ran on tires full of air, AIR I tell ya.
Lol at this. ^
I use this optional rule in my game and it's worked fine for a while. I've had to make armor limited to only stacking body pieces and accessories like helmets and shields.
My players (surprisingly) aren't really armor trolls, so I haven't had too much trouble on that end. In my opinion it speeds up combat alot.
I imagine it would take twice as long to roll damage each time someone hit. I do however roll resistance for spells due to the nature of them being super powerful already anyways. (On that note, I've also added dodge rolls for physical spells. Balances em out a little. ::))
edit: typos suck
Interesting, do you think you could line item out the house rules you use that pertain to armor and combat and damage resist rolls? maybe even with examples of how the rolling process goes? If you have time that is. I would be very interested to see what mods you had to make to have this streamlining rule work without breaking armor any more than it already is.
Also, I'm curious exactly how you worked dodge into physical spells. Do people automatically get dodge in addition to their reaction + counterspelling roll? Or does the dodge only come in when they full dodge as per normal defense rules?
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Also, does anyone have any experience with a house rule of "armor does not stack - only use the best armor item you have, ignore all the rest."? Obviously the special rules for the armored suits and whatnot would still stand from arsenal otherwise they'd be useless, but I think you know what I'm getting at.
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Also, does anyone have any experience with a house rule of "armor does not stack - only use the best armor item you have, ignore all the rest."? Obviously the special rules for the armored suits and whatnot would still stand from arsenal otherwise they'd be useless, but I think you know what I'm getting at.
I'm assuming you mean "armor that the books say are cumulative", because, as it currently stands, the rule is you only use the best armor (plus those bits of armor that specifically are cumulative).
You'll notice I'm carefully using the word cumulative because Shadowrun, to be different from everyone else, uses the word "stack" to refer to the exact effect you mention, two pieces of armor worn together with only the best rating applying.
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.
Included in that list of thing-gummies which provide a cumulative effect are the PPP system, Armor Spell, adept's Mystic Armor, natural armor (like that of trolls) and so forth.
However, a guy wearing a Chain Shirt (2/7, Arsenal, pg. 48) and Armored Clothing (4/0, SR4A, pg. 327) has an effective armor rating of 4/7. If he then put on a Helmet (+1/+2, SR4A, pg. 327) his effective armor would now be 5/9.
As for getting more restrictive than that, usually their body ought to come into play sooner or later. If you allow the custom-fitted armor optional rule, I could see armor ratings getting pretty astronomical, but aside from that, -1 to both AGI and REA for every 2 points of armor over 2x BOD can get pretty nasty pretty quick for non-trolls. At body 6 that means neither of his armor ratings can exceed 12 before he starts nuking his AGI/REA.
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Also, does anyone have any experience with a house rule of "armor does not stack - only use the best armor item you have, ignore all the rest."? Obviously the special rules for the armored suits and whatnot would still stand from arsenal otherwise they'd be useless, but I think you know what I'm getting at.
That's not really a house rule. That's a rule that has many exceptions (suit sets, component armor and Form Fitting). I imagine he just removed the components. From my experience, most players who aren't combat monsters and/or on the forums play by this rule because they don't think about armor enough to notice why Form-fitting is so cool.
Back in my day, we didn't have no fancy schmancy armored underwear. We had armored jackets. That's it. No other options. If you wanted more armor you stayed in the damn car, the one with air in the tires.
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I have a character that's eye-balling the Steam-punk line (Arsenal, pg. 46) because, well, the player loves steam-punk clothing. And one or two other characters that like them from the subtle perspective.
Beyond that, our combat nut has a few pieces of the PPP System. No one has really looked beyond that much.
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Yes, sorry, I used the wrong terminology. I did mean cumulative - such as PPP and Form fitting body armor (FFBA). So, my question should have been worded something like this:
"Also, does anyone have any experience with a house rule such as "armor such as PPP & FFBA is not cumulative with other armors worn - only use the best armor item you have, ignore all the rest - as per SR4A Basic armor rules."? Obviously the special rules for the armored suits and whatnot (such as the Steampunk Line and the Executive Suite Line) would still stand from arsenal (otherwise they'd be useless), but I think you know what I'm getting at."
The reason I ask is because it's really fairly easy to make a starting character with right around 18/14 Armor. Possibly higher if you're an adept or magician. And that's just plain annoying and (IMO) unrealistic.
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The reason I ask is because it's really fairly easy to make a starting character with right around 18/14 Armor. Possibly higher if you're an adept or magician. And that's just plain annoying and (IMO) unrealistic.
I played Ghost Cartells Yesterday
I've got a "Tank Troll" (Meteor ,Pit Fighter) with an Armor of 16/12 and BOD 10
We're just at the Beginning of the Campaign.
in 3 different encounters I barely escaped Death(and only because I used every Edge Point !)
last Run, first encounter with Mafia Thugs caused the near Death of 2 fellow chars(1 Large Burst Explo Ammo AK97 meant 1 Box Overflow for Char #1 and 2 Boxes Overflow for Char 2.If the large Burst would've hit only 1 Char he would have been Dead after 1 Hour of Play !!)
in the ongoing Fight My Char took 8 Boxes Stun and 6 Boxes Physical and that only because I was the Tank !
Everything below 12-15 soak dice is plain suicidal in that official Campaign !!
The other players are looking for ways to Armor up because they don't want to loose their Chars
And Yesterday was supposed to be a light sidetrack Adventure(Break & Entering)
Well , 3 Patrolmen surprised us.They were armed with Heavy Pistols and Shotguns (standard for Lonestar,Professinal Rating 4)
End Result: our Mage was near Death 9 Boxes Damage (BOD 3 and 6/4 Vest)
Meteor got 9 Boxes Stun and 3 Boxes Physical
And that's just plain annoying
ImO its even more annoying to be at the brink of Death in each and every Encounter
With a Dance on the other side
Medicineman
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Medicineman, since you have recent experience, I'd like your opinion. What's the viability of super stealth as a replacement for armor?
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Super stealth ?
In my experience its (nearly) Impossible to dodge or sneak away from each and every Enemy .Sooner or later you're discovered and the fight starts and when the going gets rough its better to be armored up to your Teeth (10-12 Dice Minimum and Edge ! )
I hope this answers your question :) If not plese rephrase it
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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@Medicineman: I completely 100% agree with you about not wanting to be on the brink of death every encounter, but - what kind of dice pools are being thrown at you that you were at 9 boxes stun and 3 boxes Physical when you have a soak pool of 26? How long was the combat? How many 'bad guys' were there? Even if you were just buying successes, 26 dice buys you 6 hits, rolling should net you on average 8 or 9 hits. So, for your average heavy pistol at 5P damage, the bad guys would need a dice pool of about 10, and that's just to do 1 box of stun.
I fully concede that you may be 100% in the right here, I just am not in the habit of having my NPC goons rolling 10+ dice. Perhaps I need to run an official module/campaign, I may be going way too easy on my PCs. If you could run down some of the dice pools and rolls that were made in that combat, I would really really appreciate it. Perhaps it would shed some light on where my math has gone wrong when dealing with armor and damage.
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Just asked a friend who has Ghost Cartels about those stats. He said they're 'scary'.
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Super stealth ?
In my experience its (nearly) Impossible to dodge or sneak away from each and every Enemy .Sooner or later you're discovered and the fight starts and when the going gets rough its better to be armored up to your Teeth (10-12 Dice Minimum and Edge ! )
I hope this answers your question :) If not plese rephrase it
JahtaHey
Medicineman
That was it exactly and exactly what I was thinking. The problem with a sneaky bastard is that you can't get it wrong even once. Makes the Ruthineum dermal sheath and the chameleon skin quality, which both require you be naked, seem kind of silly. Now the Chameleon Suit and Form Fitting will get that 12 Armor, so that might be doable.
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Just asked a friend who has Ghost Cartels about those stats. He said they're 'scary'.
So ghost cartels story line is supposed to be really challenging? or is this supposed to be the "standard difficulty level"?
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As far as i could see, most of the BBG's are top-of-the line, and you can even run into Atzlaner's warrior caste and groups of Shedim (with a Master Shedim lieutnant), so yes.
And as a smal spoiler, Fatima from JackPoint got killed in the gang wars, so i bet even prime runners had problems during that time.
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The reason I ask is because it's really fairly easy to make a starting character with right around 18/14 Armor. Possibly higher if you're an adept or magician. And that's just plain annoying and (IMO) unrealistic.
Is that assuming Body<=6 or do you just mean that a character designed to be a damage sponge can easily afford the BP cost of the metatype, Body, armor itself and various built-in armor to reach those numbers? Because, honestly, if that's your one trick as a character its less annoying to me personally than being able to (for example) KO 4+ people per combat round consistently.
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@Medicineman:.... If you could run down some of the dice pools and rolls that were made in that combat, I would really really appreciate it. Perhaps it would shed some light on where my math has gone wrong when dealing with armor and damage.
Only Fragments.
First Fight was against 5 or 6 Goons (1 Orkleader ,all of them Military trained) with SMGs (Ingram Smart X I recall) or AK97 with folding Stock and Explo Ammo (they here hidden under Coats) and they where pouring Long Burst upon my poor poor Troll .after 5 long Burst My Char was down to (IIRC) 8 Stun and 5 Physical I was asked to soak 10,12,14 Points of Damage .The
second fight was against 3 Goons (ok only two because I Jumped the first one and killed him,before he could act ) they too were armed with SMGs and Assault Rifles with Recoil comp of 4 and 5
one got me flatfooted (Glitch and no more Edge to compensate) so it was 5 - 8 Stun ,but I got both Goons (Hurray for Groundfighting and long Arms.I send them down 4 Levels)
last fight was against 3 Cops 2 with Shotguns with APDS Ammo and 1 cop switched to an APDS Ammo Mag after 4 rounds standard that didn't do nick against my Char.
They where lucky that the Doors in the Building where so small and that I had to tackle them one by one.
Our GM has lots of Luck with his Dice and the Dice Pool was between 10 to 15 (Incl Smart,Aiming etc)IIRC, Smartlinked and recoil compensated(3-5 Pts)Weapons.The Leader used Edge in critical Situations.
Nothing that I would consider extraordinary.I like to Min/Max my Char and expect the same from professional adversaries
Hough!
Medicineman
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@Nomadzophiel: Actually, I could probably build a character that has 18/14 ish armor and could KO about 4 goons in a combat round. course he wouldn't be much help in a high profile meeting or hacking, but really getting that kind of armor is doable by most if not all starting characters.
@Medicineman: Guess i need to up my NPCs game a bit, I generally don't give them fully customized weapons and have them focusing all their attacks on the same character in a round. Food for thought.
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@Medicineman: Guess i need to up my NPCs game a bit, I generally don't give them fully customized weapons and have them focusing all their attacks on the same character in a round. Food for thought.
I'm often fighting close In because I know that my Troll can take It.
My char is a Pitfighter and Tank .His Role is to engage the Enemy in Melee so that the others can organise a counter attack (and because his LOG is only 2 he's doing this instinctively ;) )
And he's not getting ALL Attacks ,but most of them because He is either the most likely or most Fearsome (Fomori with two Raptorlegs & climbing Claws running directly towards the Enemy provokes most of the Attacks)
with an instinctive Dance
Medicineman
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@Nomadzophiel: Actually, I could probably build a character that has 18/14 ish armor and could KO about 4 goons in a combat round. course he wouldn't be much help in a high profile meeting or hacking, but really getting that kind of armor is doable by most if not all starting characters.
I figured that was what you meant, but I didn't want to throw lots of math out without being sure. Now I personally have no idea how you would do this. Here's where my mind is on the subject:
Human/Elf characters are going to have a max Body of 6, unaugmented. More likely 5 but we'll work with 6. So they can have 12/12 before being encumbered. FFBA provides 6/2, stacks and only counts half towards encumbrance. So the way I have it figured, you're looking at 15/13 before penalties kick in. For less combative characters its more like 11/9 (Body 4). No argument that these are low-ish numbers. There's plenty enough easy ways to up it with implants, spells or adept powers. These are the numbers that most non-maxed out Body characters are working with, including Dwarves. What did I miss that you used to make up the difference?
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Well, I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I'm sure someone else could step in here with a better build, but just off the top of my head I would go with an Ork for the wee bit of extra body, thereby upping our armor "cap" so we don't get penalties. 7 body wouldn't be unheard of if you're building a super-shooty tank type toon I would think. Trolls get +1/+1 armor base and have a higher base Body stat, but I'm trying to show that most characters can get there, not that trolls are OP or some other randomness.
Now lets see (gotta break the books out - never actually tried to make a crazy armor beast)...
Form fitting body armor = 6/2
PPP = +2/+4 (+2/+6 w/ helmet)
Armored Jacket or Camo Suit = 8/6
Subtotal for only worn armor = 16/12 (16/14 w/ helmet) [only counts as 13/11 (13/13 w/ helmet) for encumbrance] *
To this subtotal we can add either trolls natural armor, some sort of dermal plating, dermal sheath, orthoskin, bone lacing or mystic armor, etc., bringing our total even higher - still with no penalties, and if you did somehow incur a penalty, it would not be out-of-line to pump your body up by one more - using either BP/karma to up your natural, or by addding cyber/bioware to the mix. Also note that:
* If your GM interprets the rules for FFBA + PPP as "Add the PPP to the FFBA, then divide its armor by 2 for encumbrance", then this combo can be worn with a Body 6, rather than requiring a Body of 7 due to the armor set only counting as 12/9 (12/10 w/ helmet) for encumbrance in that case. I do not run it like this, but I have heard of others interpreting the rules that way.
So anyway, even an elf could get really close to this setup no problem, especially when you add in the mystic armor or bio/cyberware. But as I said before, I don't really have much of an issue with the min-maxing or what have you, I don't care if people build tanks, what bothers me is all the tons of extra dice rolling required which tends to slow down combat.
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* If your GM interprets the rules for FFBA + PPP as "Add the PPP to the FFBA, then divide its armor by 2 for encumbrance", then this combo can be worn with a Body 6, rather than requiring a Body of 7 due to the armor set only counting as 12/9 (12/10 w/ helmet) for encumbrance in that case. I do not run it like this, but I have heard of others interpreting the rules that way.
The only thing that I see talking about half-rating for encumbrance is the FFBA:
When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of form-fitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer's Body x2
Emphasis mine.
These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do
Okay, I can see, kinda, how you could get that interpretation, since PPP "modifies" the rating of armor worn. But, it seems like the underlined portions of my first quote clarify that position. You divide the FFBA, then add other sources of armor.
That says the equation is:
Encumbrance from Armor = FFBA/2 + Armor + PPP + Shield
Is there something that makes this more confusing and I'm missing it, or are people hanging their hat on that one line?
Sidenote: And, of course, your GM could always allow custom-fitted armor, that really ups the stakes for what you can wear.
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Encumbrance from Armor = FFBA/2 + Armor + PPP + Shield
Is there something that makes this more confusing and I'm missing it, or are people hanging their hat on that one line?
No, I don't think you're missing anything, that is how I run it as well. The instances I have heard of people running it the other way were - well, tba, I have no idea, I never bothered to ask why, I just said "interesting", made a mental note, and moved on. I can also see where the description for PPP could lead one to believe that you could modify the FFBA and then get a slight bonus in encumbrance with that interpretation, but I don't do it that way, and honestly, the difference is so slight that it really wouldn't make all that big of a difference even if that were the case. :P
Sidenote: And, of course, your GM could always allow custom-fitted armor, that really ups the stakes for what you can wear.
Yea, that pretty much changes everything, but my concern is more with the insane amounts of dice rolling as per RAW, I'm not really too concerned with all the optional stuff right this second. ;)
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Well, I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I'm sure someone else could step in here with a better build, but just off the top of my head I would go with an Ork for the wee bit of extra body,
<snip>
So anyway, even an elf could get really close to this setup no problem, especially when you add in the mystic armor or bio/cyberware. But as I said before, I don't really have much of an issue with the min-maxing or what have you, I don't care if people build tanks, what bothers me is all the tons of extra dice rolling required which tends to slow down combat.
OK, so you are talking someone specifically streamlined to be able to wear a lot of armor. Keep in mind that all of your examples have a decent BP and/or Essence cost involved. Even your basic Orc with 7 body costs the same as being a Magic 4 mage and more than an Edge 6 human normie. In general its something any combat monkey will do but not many less combat intensive characters.
As to the rolling, I agree that counting a fistfull of dice can be a pain. You could make the Bypassing Armor called shot the standard. In the long run it has the same effect on damage as not using it. Just subtract armor from the number of dice the shooter has. Using the dice cancel dice idea, you can take it as far as you're willing to go. See my first post in this thread for some logical (and possibly no fun to play) extremes.
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I suppose one could just state that Armor can only be used to buy hits on a soak test. i.e. every 4 armor = -1DV. That's basically the exact same thing as the optional rule except only 25% as powerful.
To mitigate that so that combat isn't quite as harsh you could modify that to "every 3 armor = -1DV", or "every 2 armor = -1DV", depending on how deadly you want your combat to be.
Wouldn't be too hard to just make a note on your character sheet/NPC sheet that they have a base DV modifier of (for example) -4 or some such. Would definitely help to alleviate the dice bombs.
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Its not a bad idea, but I'd be curious to see the effect on players. If its x Armor=1 free hit, then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder. I originally liked the idea of using the Bypass rule (armor subtracts dice directly from the hit roll) but it turns out there are a couple of very good reasons to use that rule as-is.
What it comes down to is there is a basic imbalance. Base DV is automatic, not rolled. Armor is rolled, not automatic. Ignoring those, a firearms test is basically AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD.
So now I'm actually more stumped on how to streamline this than Iw as when we started.
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I've found that one of the best ways to streamline is often to not change the rules, since you don't know what's gonna happen and just buy more, different colored, dice.
Then, when I tell a player he's getting shot at, I can just tell him modifiers to his REA roll & the AP of the ammo, he scoops up, say 3 green dice (REA 4 -1 misc modifier) and 15 red dice (BOD 5, Armor 14, -4 AP for APDS). These all get rolled as one gigantor dice pool into our 12" dice tray, and he quickly sorts out green hits and red hits, green 1's and red 1's. It's over in two seconds.
I keep a couple hundred dice on me, for the players who don't want / can't afford a significant number of differently colored dice.
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then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder
Which means they loose a full die every time someone fires at them with a heavy pistol (-1 AP) ;)
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Its not a bad idea, but I'd be curious to see the effect on players. If its x Armor=1 free hit, then people have an incentive to take a multiple of X with no remainder. I originally liked the idea of using the Bypass rule (armor subtracts dice directly from the hit roll) but it turns out there are a couple of very good reasons to use that rule as-is.
What it comes down to is there is a basic imbalance. Base DV is automatic, not rolled. Armor is rolled, not automatic. Ignoring those, a firearms test is basically AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD.
So now I'm actually more stumped on how to streamline this than Iw as when we started.
You could always still have them actually roll any remainder dice, plus, as Doc Chaos said, the remainder would also be good for buffering AP. I feel that the basic imbalance you're referring to is basically that base DV for guns tend to be between 4 and 9, whereas base Armor for characters is around 9 to 16, but as you said, its rolled so you only end up with roughly 3 to 6 hits. I guess it's looking more and more like any changes to the actual number of dice rolled (via the x Armor=1 free hit ruling) is just gonna move the combat deadliness in one direction or the other. Actually, although this is coming to a conclusion in a completely different way than I imagined, I think I'm really liking this. Basically what it means is that if you implement the "x Armor=1 free hit" hourse rule, you are giving yourself a more granular (finer) control over precisely how deadly combat is in your game, just by raising or lowering "x". And that's in addition to needing to roll less dice. Win - win. ;)
I've found that one of the best ways to streamline is often to not change the rules, since you don't know what's gonna happen and just buy more, different colored, dice.
Then, when I tell a player he's getting shot at, I can just tell him modifiers to his REA roll & the AP of the ammo, he scoops up, say 3 green dice (REA 4 -1 misc modifier) and 15 red dice (BOD 5, Armor 14, -4 AP for APDS). These all get rolled as one gigantor dice pool into our 12" dice tray, and he quickly sorts out green hits and red hits, green 1's and red 1's. It's over in two seconds.
I keep a couple hundred dice on me, for the players who don't want / can't afford a significant number of differently colored dice.
Ahh, Capitalism, if you can't solve the problem - go spend money. ;D
Actually, I do like your idea rather alot, it may not reduce the number of dice rolled, but it does speed up the combat by..well, 33-50% in theory. Maybe I'll have to invest in some more number cubes.
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Yep, using 2 Armor=1 Hit puts you in an area where damage is very roughly equal to net hits on AGI+weapon vs REA+BOD and you can modify from there.
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Yea, I think that if I do decide to test out this as a house rule I'll probably go with the 3:1, I like my combat to go a little faster and be a little more deadly. It's a bit grittier and more realistic IMO. But maybe that's just me. ;)
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I'd suggest 3:1, roll the remainder. If someone spends Edge, they roll it rather than divide by 3 and get Rule of Six bonus dice equal to 1/2 the automatic hits.
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Mathematically its more like 3:1 and the optinal rules for buying successes even is 4:1.
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Yea, on that note I had been contemplating House ruling the buying hits rule to 3:1. That basically fixes the issue of making doing this with armor only far less complicated. That way instead of having special rules for armor, its just a flat house rule that applies to everything evenly. Which is much simpler comparatively speaking.
My reasoning is that by making it 4:1 your punishing the players for buying hits. Fairly severely actually. Obviously we all know that rolling nets you an average of 1 hit per 3 dice, whereas buying is only at 1 hit per 4 dice. Thus is penalty #1.
However what most people don't take into account is that when you buy hits, you reduce the number of dice you roll - which in turn increases the chances of getting a glitch. i.e.: rolling all 20 (for example) dice, the odds of getting a glitch are 1 in 60,466,176*; whereas if you were to buy 4 successes (using RAW), then your dice pool becomes only 4 (with 4 automatic successes). Now the odds of glitching the roll are only 1 in 36*. Granted - still a slim chance, but statistically speaking that's a change in odds of biblical proportions...if you take my meaning. Thus is penalty #2.
Furthermore, if you'll note the wording for glitches and critical glitches:
If half or more of the dice pool rolled come up as 1s, then a glitch results.
If a character rolls a glitch and scores zero hits, then she has made a critical glitch.
then you can see that hits that are bought do not save you from critical glitches as the criteria are based on dice rolled. So a dramatically increased chance of rolling a critical glitch is inherent in buying hits as well. Penalty #3.
So, with all these fairly severe negatives (statistically speaking), why do we all use this rule so much? Cause it speeds up play and makes us need to roll less dice. Well, then why don't we quit punishing our players and NPCs and make the buying hits rule be at a 3:1 ratio? We may not be able to fix the increasing odds of glitching and crit glitching as successes are bought, but at least we can give them a wee bit more bang for their buck when they decide to take their chances.
Well, that's my take on it anyway...
*Note: My math may be off, but I'm pretty sure I erred on the side of caution. For example: I think the odds of glitching with 4 dice is actually higher (more likely) than 1:36, but I forget how to do some of the deeper stats math these days.
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voyd, the thing to take in mind when talking about glitches / critical glitches is that, under the RAW, you can either buy hits or roll the dice.
The system you're currently considering is essentially turning it into the same thought process as a weapon, you have Base Soak of TRUNC(Armor.Modified/3) (whereas a weapon has a Base DV) and then you have the Soak Roll of Body + REMAINDER(Armor.Modified/3) (analogous to the attack roll for the weapon, if a little unusual).
So I would treat the Total DP for glitching as just being the remaining dice that are rolled, not rolled dice + auto-hits. Hell, if you really wanted to make it simple, you could lump Reaction into the Soak Roll (along with any ranged combat modifiers / full defense) and have it be a simple opposed roll:
Attack Skill + Agility vs Reaction + Body + REMAINDER(Armor.Modified/3). Compare Base DV to TRUNC(Armor.Modified/3) to determine stun vs physical.
Now you've sped up combat.
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voyd, the thing to take in mind when talking about glitches / critical glitches is that, under the RAW, you can either buy hits or roll the dice.
The system you're currently considering is essentially turning it into the same thought process as a weapon, you have Base Soak of TRUNC(Armor.Modified/3) (whereas a weapon has a Base DV) and then you have the Soak Roll of Body + REMAINDER(Armor.Modified/3) (analogous to the attack roll for the weapon, if a little unusual).
So I would treat the Total DP for glitching as just being the remaining dice that are rolled, not rolled dice + auto-hits. Hell, if you really wanted to make it simple, you could lump Reaction into the Soak Roll (along with any ranged combat modifiers / full defense) and have it be a simple opposed roll:
Attack Skill + Agility vs Reaction + Body + REMAINDER(Armor.Modified/3). Compare Base DV to TRUNC(Armor.Modified/3) to determine stun vs physical.
Now you've sped up combat.
Good things to think about.
I had apparently forgotten that you can buy hits or roll. I was thinking of buying as a means of reducing dice pools, rather than an option to use instead of rolling.
I like your math, and suggestions, and if my whole group were math nerds I would probably use it. Alas, only 2 of my players are math geeks and I consider myself a 1/2 math geek. My other players would probably start to bleed from the ears were I to try to explain this system to them..lol
Oh well, it's still an informative, educational, and interesting look into the specifics of combat math.
However, wouldn't that "simple" opposed roll be: (ROLL[Attack Skill + Agility] + HITS[Weapons Base DV]) vs (ROLL[Reaction + Body + REMAINDER(Armor.Modified/3)] + HITS[TRUNC(Armor.Modified/3)]) ?
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Or you could assume that both sides buy hits in equal proportion until you get to the leftovers
Simple test (Attribute+Ability)-(Rea+Armor+body). If the number is positive, the attacker rolls and Damage=DV+hits. If the number is negative, the defender rolls and damage=DV-hits.
Add all appropriate modifiers to both sides before calculating. Basically you're lumping everything together in one roll, letting both sides buy hits until one comes out ahead, then rolling or buying the difference. You can still compare the final DV to armor to determine stun vs physical, final DV+1/3 BOD if you're a real stickler.
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I guess at this point we need to start looking into how we define streamlining.... cause this is all definitely faster, but is it easier? ;D
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yeah, it gets math intensive fast :P.
Worth noting that Nomad's version is easier to recalculate on the fly, though generally, I'm opposed to mixing buying and rolling. I'd be more comfortable completely reconfiguring the system, if I were to go this far.
1. Divide all armor by 2, this is the Base Armor Value, it isn't rolled. (You'll see why 2 in a bit)
2. Take the remainder, name it whatever you want (I'd call it the Armor's Absorption) and add it and body to your opposed reaction roll.
3. Armor Penetration applies directly to Base Armor Value. (this is why I'm friendly and give 1 point base per 2 in this system).
4. Physical if base weapon DV exceeds armor, Stun otherwise.
This offers minimal math, no dice trade-in system that stretches the meaning of "buying hits" past the breaking point. It also helps re-align armor to be more similar to weapons by providing a "base", automatic protection against the weapon's "base", automatic damage.
Yes, it'll push game balance somewhere, but the combat system will never be truly "balanced" while being playable. Besides, what do you expect out of five minutes of carefully thought out turning the rules system on its head?
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At first glance your system seems to make Armor 50% stronger, but also makes AP on weapons twice as effective. Lets see if I can come up with some examples to show how the systems would differ. I'm going to assume every 3 dice = 1 hit, 1 die left over = no luck, 2 dice leftover = lucky roll. e.g.: 6 dice = 2 hits, 7 dice = 2 hits, 8 dice = 3 hits, 9 dice = 3 hits, 10 dice = 3 hits, 11 dice = 4 hits, etc.
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RAW: 11 dice to attack, 5P -1AP vs 3 body, 3 reaction, 8 armor (average humans, average guns, average armor)
Prelim:
8 armor - 1AP = 7 modified armor
Process:
4 hits on attack roll - 1 hit to avoid bullet = 3 net hits + 5P base DV = 8P modified DV
7 armor + 3 body = 10 dice to soak = 3 hits
Final damage = 5P
5 minute mayhem rules: 11 dice to attack, 5P -1AP vs 3 body, 3 reaction, 8 armor (average humans, average guns, average armor)
Prelim:
1. Armor rating / 2 = 4 Base Armor Value (0 remainder)
2. Body + Reaction + armor remainder= 6 soak roll
3. Modified Base Armor Value = 4 + -1AP = 3
4. Weapons Base DV = 5 > Modified Base Armor Value = 3
Process:
4 hits on attack roll + 5P base DV = 9P modified DV
6 dice to soak = 2 hits + 3 Modified Armor Value = 5 Soak hits
Final damage = 4P
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RAW: 16 dice to attack, 6P -2AP vs 6 body, 6 reaction, 15 armor (Bigger guys, guns & armor - more similar to Shadowrunners stats)
Prelim:
15 armor -2AP = 13 modified armor
Process:
5 hits on attack roll - 2 hit to avoid bullet = 3 net hits + 6P base DV = 9P modified DV
13 armor + 6 body = 19 dice to soak = 6 hits
Final damage = 3S
5 minute mayhem rules: 16 dice to attack, 6P -2AP vs 6 body, 6 reaction, 15 armor (Bigger guys, guns & armor - more similar to Shadowrunners stats)
Prelim:
1. Armor rating / 2 = 7 Base Armor Value (1 remainder)
2. Body + Reaction + armor remainder = 13
3. Modified Base Armor Value = 7 + -2AP = 5
4. Weapons Base DV = 6 > Modified Base Armor Value = 5
Process:
5 hits on attack roll + 6P base DV = 11P modified DV
13 dice to soak = 4 hits + 5 Modified Armor Value = 9 Soak hits
Final damage = 2P
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RAW: 16 dice to attack, 8P -4AP vs 6 body, 6 reaction, 15 armor (Bigger guys & armor, weapon = monowhip - more similar to Shadowrunners stats)
Prelim:
15 armor -4AP = 11 modified armor
Process:
5 hits on attack roll - 2 hit to avoid whip = 3 net hits + 8P base DV = 11P modified DV
11 armor + 6 body = 17 dice to soak = 6 hits
Final damage = 5S
5 minute mayhem rules: 16 dice to attack, 8P -4AP vs 6 body, 6 reaction, 15 armor (Bigger guys & armor, weapon = monowhip - more similar to Shadowrunners stats)
Prelim:
1. Armor rating / 2 = 7 Base Armor Value (1 remainder)
2. Body + Reaction + armor remainder = 13
3. Modified Base Armor Value = 7 + -4AP = 3
4. Weapons Base DV = 8 > Modified Base Armor Value = 3
Process:
5 hits on attack roll + 8P base DV = 13P modified DV
13 dice to soak = 4 hits + 3 Modified Armor Value = 7 Soak hits
Final damage = 6P
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hmmm. So, with this limited sample space, it seems that the average damage dealt with guns will be just a touch lower (1 damage lower to be precise), therefore making gun combat less deadly overall.
However, we can see that with a high AP weapon (the monowhip) combat becomes significantly more deadly. I would assume the same outcome would occur if we set up a test with APDS ammo.
We also see that with the 5 minute system we are more likely for our damage to remain physical rather than getting converted to stun in pretty much all cases.
I think the only thing I would do would be to perhaps add a 5th item to the prelim of the "5mm" rules:
5. Weapons Base DV - Modified Armor Value = bonus (or penalty) to attackers roll.
that way the process part of the 5mm rules becomes simply an opposed roll of (Agi + weapon skill) vs defenders pool (calculated in step 2)
Since the derived values from steps 1 (Base Armor Value) and 2 (Defense Pool) can both be pre-calculated & noted on the character sheet, an attack of any sort becomes simply:
1. Modify Base Armor Value with AP of attack.
2. Weapons Base DV - Modified Armor Value = bonus (or penalty) to attackers roll. (If this is a bonus, then damage is Physical, if it's a penalty or a wash, then damage is Stun).
3. Roll Modified Attack Roll vs. Defense Pool. Net hits by attacker = boxes of damage sustained.
Does this sound like I'm getting your system correctly? Or am I missing something?
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Yup, you basically hit the nail on the head. I'm assuming since each attack hit you just went straight to adding hits from attack and "soak" to the Base DV and Modified Base Armor (if hits on the "soak" roll exceeded hits on the attack roll, hit would be completely negated, of course).
I was expecting a higher frequency of Physical hits from the proposal, just didn't want to spout it off without doing the math, and I didn't feel like doing the math. :P
I think the only thing I would do would be to perhaps add a 5th item to the prelim of the "5mm" rules:
5. Weapons Base DV - Modified Armor Value = bonus (or penalty) to attackers roll.
that way the process part of the 5mm rules becomes simply an opposed roll of (Agi + weapon skill) vs defenders pool (calculated in step 2)
I take this to mean that there would be no more automatic damage? Though, as your examples have shown, in almost all cases, this has resulted in physical damage, which suggests that the system doesn't work as intended, since ideally we would see a similar distribution of Physical and Stun. Oh well, if you like quicker, more painful gun fights, this certainly seems to do the trick. I'd probably consider using it for "dangerous" Shadowrun games.
Since the derived values from steps 1 (Base Armor Value) and 2 (Defense Pool) can both be pre-calculated & noted on the character sheet, an attack of any sort becomes simply:
1. Modify Base Armor Value with AP of attack.
2. Weapons Base DV - Modified Armor Value = bonus (or penalty) to attackers roll. (If this is a bonus, then damage is Physical, if it's a penalty or a wash, then damage is Stun).
3. Roll Modified Attack Roll vs. Defense Pool. Net hits by attacker = boxes of damage sustained.
Does this sound like I'm getting your system correctly? Or am I missing something?
If you incorporate your item 5 into my original 4 steps, yep, that's the 5 Minute Mayhem combat rules, by Chaemera and voydangel. Chosen Nondescript Deity(ies) of the moment, preserve us.
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I think I may incorporate the 5mm rules into the game that I am planning to start next week. I actually like the fact that it will generally being doing Physical instead of stun damage, especially since it seems to do less actual boxes of damage, barring high amounts of AP anyway. But since I am generally fairly stingy with APDS and the like in my games, I don't think it will be too big of an issue. We'll see.
I have a few friends who want to play, and even though i have 3 other games that I'm GMing atm, I am rather excited to have a test bed for this, so here we go! ;D
I hope I can survive doing 4 games at once, plus college, plus looking for a job.