Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Quatar on <02-15-14/1548:38>
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I know most people think that gun (from Gun Heaven 3) is brutally overpowered for an AR, but in light of the errata'd Recoil Compensation rules, is it still?
I apologize if there was a discussion on that already and I missed it.
Ok, here's my thought:
With a normal AR, say the AK-97 which got a similar Availability, you have 10P, -2 AP but also BF and FA mode.
Now for a FA weapon firing a Long Burst is a Simple Action, so as long as you can handle a Recoil of 6, you don't have any Recoil with it.
RC 6 isn't too hard to get. Gas Vent 3 + Shock Pad is already 4, you get one for free, that's 5, and Strength/3 (rounded up) as well. So even with Strength 1 that's 6 right there. Isn't too hard to get at all!
In return your target gets -5 to it's Defense.
Now the URFC:
A damage of 14P and -4 AP seems ridicilous, but you can only fire Semi Auto. SA Bursts are Complex Actions, so you don't want to do that.
So instead of a -5 to Defense the URFC gets a +4 to Damage and a -2 to AP.
So in the end it's harder to actually hit the target with the URFC, but if you hit, it's gonna hurt more.
I've not done the math on it, so I don't know how huge the difference still is, but is it really still so horrible?
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With RC 6, you can still do 2 SA bursts in a row, so that's 3 bullets versus 6 for the start. Plus just like 4E's Arsenal, there may be a book that allows for customization, including extra firing modes - mods for extra damage, however, didn't exist in 4E.
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Well you can fire 1 SA burst, but your next attack has to be a single SA attack for the Simple Action to reset the RC on the third round. Otherwise if you shoot 2 SA Bursts, you take penalties on the third round.
But yeah, ok, hadn't considered that, that gives the URFC a -2 to Defense on every second attack as well.
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Well you can fire 1 SA burst, but your next attack has to be a single SA attack for the Simple Action to reset the RC on the third round. Otherwise if you shoot 2 SA Bursts, you take penalties on the third round.
But yeah, ok, hadn't considered that, that gives the URFC a -2 to Defense on every second attack as well.
No, you can do 2 SA Bursts, then use a Simple to Take Aim, then fire an SA shot, SA Burst, SA shot, Take Aim, etc. Furthermore, the errata don't change the fact that the Ultimax practically eliminates the Longarms skill from the game, because it does the same damage as a fragile gun 10x its cost.
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Well you can fire 1 SA burst, but your next attack has to be a single SA attack for the Simple Action to reset the RC on the third round. Otherwise if you shoot 2 SA Bursts, you take penalties on the third round.
But yeah, ok, hadn't considered that, that gives the URFC a -2 to Defense on every second attack as well.
No, you can do 2 SA Bursts, then use a Simple to Take Aim, then fire an SA shot, SA Burst, SA shot, Take Aim, etc. Furthermore, the errata don't change the fact that the Ultimax practically eliminates the Longarms skill from the game, because it does the same damage as a fragile gun 10x its cost.
Once again I stand corrected. Yeah, you can do SAB/SAB/SA/SAB/SA and then start over. So 3/5 of your shots will be SAB.
And I didn't consider the impact on the Longarms skill either.
Yeah, still best to just ban the weapon.
Thanks all for the answers.
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Another quick solution is houseruling the gun to do the same damage as the Remington 950, 12P/-4 instead of 14P/-4. That way it still has an advantage on the Alpha that will lead some people to using it from time to time.
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Yes.
Ban the weapon.
The advantage over the Alpha is supposed to be it's ease of obtainment and cost. It's a carbine.
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Yes.
Ban the weapon.
The advantage over the Alpha is supposed to be it's ease of obtainment and cost. It's a carbine.
wrong professor: with ex-ex, it's a cannon!
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could you balance it with
lowering the DV to 12 the ap to -2 and the cost with a 1000 nuyen?
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could anyone please post the complete statistics for the carbine? Thank you.
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Accuracy 7, Damage 14P, AP -4, Mode SA, RC (1), Ammo 18 (c), Avail 5R, Cost 2800¥
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does it use automatics or longarms skill?
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The book is unclear on if it uses Automatics or Longarms. Given the lack of burst fire or fully automatic capability, I am leaning toward Longarms.
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does it use automatics or longarms skill?
The book is unclear on if it uses Automatics or Longarms. Given the lack of burst fire or fully automatic capability, I am leaning toward Longarms.
The book has it listed as an Assault Rifle, so without any rules saying it's an exception, it should use the Automatics skill. Making it Longarms wouldn't be too much of a fix though... As Michael said, it still prettymuch outclasses all the current Longarms, so it wouldn't change much.
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Yeah. I'm trying not to get into this debate though. At my table, I've houseruled that Automatics skill doesn't exist, which makes life easier for bookkeeping and arguments about what kind of skill to use with what firearm is null.
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Yeah. I'm trying not to get into this debate though. At my table, I've houseruled that Automatics skill doesn't exist, which makes life easier for bookkeeping and arguments about what kind of skill to use with what firearm is null.
So, pistols and smgs fall under pistols, and assault rifles, snipers, shotguns and mgs are longarms?
I just started playing SR with the new edition. While building my character, I decided for automatics because I could use machine pistols for concealability (and still have BF/FA), and assault rifles for power. Seemed the best of both worlds. I didn't see the need for anyone but a full out martial character needing pistols. I'm using a modded out Steyr for my primary weapon. I do realize that pistols are more concealable, but the machine pistol with the 0 modifier was good enough for me. Its been fine in my game so far. I'm currently pumping unarmed combat skill with shock gloves for when I can't bring the heat. Also, my character only uses stick and shock so that I'm not leaving a trail of bodies.
My DM approved the Rainforest with the changes Michael just mentioned.
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So, pistols and smgs fall under pistols, and assault rifles, snipers, shotguns and mgs are longarms?
Yes, except that MGs still fall under Heavy Weapons. And Longarms also covers Battle Rifles, Sporting Rifles, the Parashield Dart Rifle, and the Fichetti Pain Inducer. Pistols also covers Tasers, the Parashield Dart Pistol and the Ares S-III Super Squirt. But we can continue this discussion elsewhere if you're curious. Just send me a PM.
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@Namikaze, your changes to the firearm skills make a ton of sense. I was just recently discussing something similar as the firearm rules really don't make sense (in addition to automatics, there is zero difference between sniper rifle and sport rifle in its usage).
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I am considering changing my home game firearm categories to One Handed, Two Handed, Heavy, and Special. With specializations for scoped fire, automatic fire, direct or indirect heavy, etc. Special is anything that does not fit into the other three categories and requires a seperate skill for each individual Special weapon.
-k
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Sports and Sniper Rifles still edge the RFC out on range.
Also, a Full Auto burst or Full Auto complex can be effectively split between several targets with the penalties mitigating the lower dicepools. The RFC is less effective against multiple targets. Shotguns are likewise more effective at crowd control.
The RFC is horribly broken, but without mod access it doesn't entirely render other weapons worthless. It does force them so deep into niches that they'll never see daylight again but there are times when another weapon is favorable.