Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Twilight on <02-21-14/2020:17>
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This seemed like the best forum for this but, if not, feel free to move it...
I realize this is just a preview but I thought I'd note the issues I see with it so someone can note them to be resolved before final release...
- Zoe is listed as a manufacturer but has no armor/clothing listed that you can buy.
- Second Skin has Custom Fit (Stack) but there doesn't appear to be any other clothing/armor available from the same manufacturer (so, per the Stack rules, you can't actually stack it).
- If Second Skin breaks the general Stack rule and can be used with other lines of clothing/armor then Form-Fitting Body Armor definitely should as well - it has always been designed to wear under other clothing/armor but is listed as "Custom Fit" (not Stack)
That's all I've noticed so far...
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They've changed form-fitting on purpose so that it isn't the end all be-all of armor like it used to be. But I'm sure people will pick up Second Skin instead, if their strength attribute allows for it.
A few other errors I noticed:
Under the description for Concealability, it says "no matter what the dice pool says you can hide an assault cannon in assless chaps." This should be changed to "no matter what the dice pool says, you can't hide an assault cannon in assless chaps."
Also, the Ace of Diamonds is listed as having +2 Concealability. I assume this is meant to be -2, since I don't see how making all your gear more noticeable is a feature.
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One thing I noticed that may be a mistake, is the detail descriptions.
Concealability, towards the end says "Keep a little bit of realism in
mind—no matter what the dice pool says you can hide an assault
cannon inside assless chaps."
I would imagine that you "can't" hide an assault cannon inside those assless chaps.
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One thing I noticed that may be a mistake, is the detail descriptions.
Concealability, towards the end says "Keep a little bit of realism in
mind—no matter what the dice pool says you can hide an assault
cannon inside assless chaps."
I would imagine that you "can't" hide an assault cannon inside those assless chaps.
Sure ya can. Just keester that thing. :P
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Sure ya can. Just keester that thing. :P
:o
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"What's wrong with Mungo." "He lost a bet." ;D
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So far this is a highly amusing read... Along with a great way of layering armor bonuses without it getting stupid.
Funniest thing so far is Kane taking about Slamm-O mom's boobies :)
Quick edit: wanted to add that the light intro fiction is brilliant, showcasing different armor mods and there tactical effects... Also funny as hell:)
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Along with a great way of layering armor bonuses without it getting stupid.
It wasn't 'stupid' before unless you count that one had to find every possible thing that could layer in order to actually have decent armor because everything short of security or military grade armor was nigh-worthless in protection without doing so.
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Taking my commit and going to the correct topic now... Sorry issue team :(
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They've changed form-fitting on purpose so that it isn't the end all be-all of armor like it used to be. But I'm sure people will pick up Second Skin instead, if their strength attribute allows for it.
See, that's what I'm confused about. Is Second Skin supposed to stack with anything you want, or is the rest of the line simply missing? And furthermore, does Stacking Armor count as Armor Accessory, because in that case it's pretty much useless to most people, or does it simply raise the Armor value? Since it's not listed as Armor Accessory, I do not think it counts for the Strength-limitation.
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- Zoe is listed as a manufacturer but has no armor/clothing listed that you can buy.
That is wrong. Both the executive and the heritage Line are designed and manufactured by Zoé and there are stats listed for both. It is a small problem though, that there is not a good header indicating that they both belonging to the Zoé label.
Edit: The moonsilver line and the second skin line is from Zoé aswell. Stats are listed, but again it is hard to know that it is made by Zoé if you don't know the old arsenals.[/list]
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See, that's what I'm confused about. Is Second Skin supposed to stack with anything you want, or is the rest of the line simply missing? And furthermore, does Stacking Armor count as Armor Accessory, because in that case it's pretty much useless to most people, or does it simply raise the Armor value? Since it's not listed as Armor Accessory, I do not think it counts for the Strength-limitation.
I'm curious about this as well. If it's Stacked, then you use the second number. But to Stack it requires that the armor be part of the same line. Since there's nothing else listed, it's really confusing. It'll be interesting to see if the tables change before release. IMO, they need to be broken out into manufacturer and (if necessary) by line of armor that stacks. Or the armor needs to have more clear-cut definitions of what it stacks with. Perhaps there's a section further along in the book that takes out all the fluff and just gets into the rules.
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Not the same line, the same maker. I assume that in the full book it will be more clear on first sight what all is Zoë.
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Cross-posting here just in case.
Is Social Limit intended to potentially affect Astral limit? It seems odd that wearing the right clothing makes you better at magic.
Proposed change would be to modify this line from the Social Limit description:
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer."
to
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer for the purpose of Social tests only."
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Maybe the bonus to Social limit comes from the confidence of wearing a snazzy outfit. That could affect your abilities in the Astral.
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Doesn't match with the description of the Social Limit modifiers, where visibility matters and the status helps impress others.
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After reading it several times I think the stacking bonus several times the only thing I can see is that second skin is a Zoe line allowing it to stack with other Zoe products. could be absolutely wrong on that.
Or the same maker comment in the Custom Fit (Stack) description made it past editors and was a leftover from an earlier playtest document or something of that nature.
All three scenarios seem plausible to me: Catalyst didn't make it clear that second skin is part of the Zoe line, they didn't catch that second skin would not benefit from Custom Fit (stack) or they left in text from a previous edit.
In any case I think it should be like any part of the game make a ruling and go with it. If you take out that entire line in the parentheses the description makes much more since to me given the other listings in the preview. and that is what I would do for the house rules of my game. when you have a custom fit (stack) piece of armor you go to your tailor or armorer and have him custom fit the piece to fit over or under that specific piece of gear. when you do that you gain the stacking bonus for that piece of gear.
For mission games I hope that when the book is released it is fixed or we get a faster response for an errata for this.
Red
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I like that you can't just custom-combine everything, it helps fight munchkining. "I'm using my Argentum Coat with my Hunter Clothes." Yeahno.
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Page XX! is back! White Wolf fans rejoice!
I'm assuming there's no difference between Newest Model and Newest Model 1.
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I like that you can't just custom-combine everything, it helps fight munchkining. "I'm using my Argentum Coat with my Hunter Clothes." Yeahno.
True, I can see that. Do we know for certain that the stack bonus does not use the strength limit like helmets and shields?
Just curious,
Red
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Nope, that's just me finding it logical given the text. When the book gets out and we know the exact phrasing we can ask for official clarification I guess.
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I figure that with Second Skin they just haven't decided what to stack it with yet. As far as the social limit thing goes you still wear the appearance of clothes on the astral plane if you want to so it could be argued they are still visible so the bonus could still apply. 8)
Anyone else bothered about the possibility of glow in the dark armor? It just seems to me to be a really bad idea.
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What do you mean, haven't decided yet? It's Zoë, and that means that following the definition of stacking, it can be custom-fit to combine with another outfit of Zoë.
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That needs to be made more clear. As it stands currently, each of Zoe's lines is its own manufacturer. The tables have the name of the line on them instead of the name of the manufacturer. However, all of the Ares Victory stuff is properly formatted.
When I read it, the little blurb on Zoe actually told read like Zoe no longer existed, and it had been subsumed into Armante. Thus, I figured that paragraph basically said, "Zoe's not around anymore. So if you're looking for their stuff, you'll be disappointed."
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Cross-posting here just in case.
Is Social Limit intended to potentially affect Astral limit? It seems odd that wearing the right clothing makes you better at magic.
Proposed change would be to modify this line from the Social Limit description:
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer."
to
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer for the purpose of Social tests only."
I would think that Astral Limit and Social Limit are different values. They might use the same things to calculate, but
they are not the same thing, hence why they have different names.
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I would think that Astral Limit and Social Limit are different values. They might use the same things to calculate, but
they are not the same thing, hence why they have different names.
Per RAW, Astral Limit is the higher of Mental or Social Limit with no exclusions or restrictions (so any bonus to Social Limit likely effectively gives a bonus to Astral Limit).
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I would think that Astral Limit and Social Limit are different values. They might use the same things to calculate, but
they are not the same thing, hence why they have different names.
Per RAW, Astral Limit is the higher of Mental or Social Limit with no exclusions or restrictions (so any bonus to Social Limit likely effectively gives a bonus to Astral Limit).
Of course, the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes, so...can you see someone's clothes in the Astral?
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Of course, the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes, so...can you see someone's clothes in the Astral?
First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes. Second, you cannot see someone's clothes in the Astral Plane the way we see them here. You see the person's aura, and it extends past their clothing.
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I just read that You need this ....Armand guy as a connection to get lightly used suits !? as a kind of prerequisite !?
So if my Char is based in the ADL or doesn't no this gay he can never get any used suits ??
with a mildly disturbed Dance
Medicineman
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I just read that You need this ....Armand guy as a connection to get lightly used suits !? as a kind of prerequisite !?
So if my Char is based in the ADL or doesn't no this gay he can never get any used suits ??
with a mildly disturbed Dance
Medicineman
It probably wouldn't be too much to ask your local fixer to get in contact with this guy (if his reputation does in fact proceed him).
I am both amused yet slightly confused at the thought of an Used Armored Clothing store for runners, if Lightly Worn is supposed to be in the same vein as Used Cyberware. Personally I see no problem springing for a brand new set of threads, but ok.
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First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes.
Except for that your clothes have to be visible to give you the boost.
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First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes.
You mean other then the fact that the rules explicitly say so?
On the Second Skin, is funny that per the wording of the rules one gets the second skin custom fitted to be worn over the ones business suit or evening dress :)
Also i have to say that i'm really bummed that Zoe line up doesn't include any kind of trench/long coat or other jacket as those are what i would like to combine second skin with.
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First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes.
Except for that your clothes have to be visible to give you the boost.
First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes.
You mean other then the fact that the rules explicitly say so?
Okay, I must have missed something then. Where is that?
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In the big red box explaining the different info of the armor, there's a note on the social bonuses.
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In the big red box explaining the different info of the armor, there's a note on the social bonuses.
Gah - makes sense it would be there. For whatever reason, I missed it.
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Of course, the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes, so...can you see someone's clothes in the Astral?
First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes. Second, you cannot see someone's clothes in the Astral Plane the way we see them here. You see the person's aura, and it extends past their clothing.
You mean beyond the rules themselves?
These modifiers do not stack; only the highest modifier
of any visible clothing item counts (and “visible” means seeing
enough of it that viewers get a solid impression of what the
garment does on the wearer. Seeing, for example, only the edge
of a cuff poking out from under the sleeve of a battered overcoat
or the hem of a dress beneath a housecoat will not provide the
modifier)
So..You are Astral. How much of the clothes being worn are visible? Answer: None of it.
So, you just proved that using the rules, and common sense for the setting proves that
the Social Limit Modifier does not need to be specified to not effect Astral, because it
would not be in effect.
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Common sense ain't all that common.
I'd still like to see it spelled out for the purpose of clarity, so we don't have to argue these things with rules lawyers. I'm not asking for much from the devs, here...
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I love this about these forums: when I make a mistake and own up to it, invariably someone comes along a day or two later and blasts the fact that I made a mistake. I mean, read the whole thread ya know?
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What do you mean, haven't decided yet? It's Zoë, and that means that following the definition of stacking, it can be custom-fit to combine with another outfit of Zoë.
I'd say it is pretty damned clear what I meant. I didn't stutter. If Zoe is indeed the maker for all that stuff then I'd agree with you but as far as I'm concerned that isn't so clear. All the headers are exactly the same so differentiating a "maker" from a "line" isn't a straight-forward process IMO. The simple matter of differentiating the header style of a "maker" from the header style of a "line" is pretty basic element of written communication.
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Common sense ain't all that common.
I'd still like to see it spelled out for the purpose of clarity, so we don't have to argue these things with rules lawyers. I'm not asking for much from the devs, here...
Especially when it comes to game rules.
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What do you mean, haven't decided yet? It's Zoë, and that means that following the definition of stacking, it can be custom-fit to combine with another outfit of Zoë.
I'd say it is pretty damned clear what I meant. I didn't stutter.
And I'd say that not only is it "pretty damned clear" that his "What do you mean" was not one of confusion but one of disagreement, but it is also "pretty damned clear" that you should consider not being incredibly rude towards someone just because you disagree with them.
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What do you mean, haven't decided yet? It's Zoë, and that means that following the definition of stacking, it can be custom-fit to combine with another outfit of Zoë.
I'd say it is pretty damned clear what I meant. I didn't stutter.
And I'd say that not only is it "pretty damned clear" that his "What do you mean" was not one of confusion but one of disagreement, but it is also "pretty damned clear" that you should consider not being incredibly rude towards someone just because you disagree with them.
I thank you so very kindly for your feedback.
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Wow jim1701 - take a chill pill. Rule #1 of forum posting: assume the other guy doesn't mean you insult.
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Wow jim1701 - take a chill pill. Rule #1 of forum posting: assume the other guy doesn't mean you insult.
I don't know what you mean. ???
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First, there's no reason to assume the bonus only applies if you can see the clothes.
Except for that your clothes have to be visible to give you the boost.
Still presents a problem though.
Following is a list of things that I believe can have their limit augmented by simply wearing nice clothing (which I admit is very nice clothing):
- Banishing.
- Creating foci.
-Disenchanting and disjoining.
- Brute forcing your way through a barrier.
-Spell defence and dispelling.
-An argument could be made that assensing targets on the physical plane would get the bonus.
While I can understand that looking nice might increase your confidence and all, it does balance things a fair bit towards Charisma-based spellcasters. (They also can have their limit augmented by smelling good, but that's balanced somewhat by an essence cost, and logic-based mages have the mnemonic enhancer for a higher mental limit as well).
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You're absolutely right and I'd prefer if your raw, unmodified-by-ware/powers, limits are what counts for the Astral Limit. And it's definitely something we should submit for clarification.
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Tailored Pheremones specifically calls out that it doesn't help on magic abilities or tests. Clothes should probably have that tacked on as well.
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Unless you are summoning a Spirit of Man with Fashion Sense, then a sharp suit may come in handy when dealing with the stylish spirit. :P
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Speaking of which, if local law enforcement really reacts to milspec armor with alarms and all, it only takes a milspec outfit and a Force 1 Spirit of Man with a disguise (right before sunset, ideally) for a distraction while you rob a place on the other side of town.
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Still a 10k distraction which can probably be somehow linked to your Magician.
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Run & Gun Preview 3, p.60 (6 of the document)
Progressive Recoil, second paragraph, inside the parenthesis, (1 free + STR/2 (rounded up))
Should be STR/3 to conform with SR5 p.175
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You know, I like how they talk like cumulative recoil would be a problem if you allowed multiple simple
action attacks. It would be if you had to, you know, take a full IP to get rid of the cumulative recoil. However,
with the errata change: it becomes :IP 1: Bang, Bang, IP 2 :Bang, Aim, IP 3: Bang, Bang...if you are using
Simple Action Bursts from Burst Fire weapons, then, it is IP1: Burst Burst, IP2 Aim, Burst, IP 3 Burst Aim..
Frankly. cumulative recoil doesn't seem that big a deal in that..though, it at least, you know, matters at all,
as opposed to the current all IPs: Aim, shoot.
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Um...no?
From the SR5 rules, you are only allowed one Attack action per Action Phase/ Initiative Pass. You can't attack again until the next Action Phase, and yes, if you don't stop shooting, the Recoil is going to keep getting bigger and bigger until it outstrips your RC.
Unless, of course, you're referring to RG1, which is really just an optional rule.
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You know, I like how they talk like cumulative recoil would be a problem if you allowed multiple simple action attacks. <znip>
tasti man LH
Pretty sure it's safe to say Mara is indeed talking about the optional rule RG1, yes.
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You know, I like how they talk like cumulative recoil would be a problem if you allowed multiple simple
action attacks. It would be if you had to, you know, take a full IP to get rid of the cumulative recoil. However,
with the errata change: it becomes :IP 1: Bang, Bang, IP 2 :Bang, Aim, IP 3: Bang, Bang...if you are using
Simple Action Bursts from Burst Fire weapons, then, it is IP1: Burst Burst, IP2 Aim, Burst, IP 3 Burst Aim..
Frankly. cumulative recoil doesn't seem that big a deal in that..though, it at least, you know, matters at all,
as opposed to the current all IPs: Aim, shoot.
I agree. The way the progressive recoil was originally written and interpreted by many, as needing a full Action Phase of not firing, works better with the one attack per Phase rule implemented in SR5.
The Errata, as written, seems like it was really meant for SR4, or RG1.. since it helps provide a little incentive to use at least one of your simple action potential attacks to stop attacking and do something to reset recoil.
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I'm not sure why "Second Skin" was added when Form Fitting Body Armor was basically what that was (armor that isn't noticed), but eh. With all of the armor pieces that are custom fit, it might've been easier to just say all armor was this by default and then note ones that were "loose fit" or something like that.
On page 23 under the description for FFBA, it states: "primary value of FFBA is its highly concealability." The sentence should read "primary value of FFBA is its high concealability".
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Must say after looking over the third preview, I'm overjoyed that their finally going more in-depth with the called shots to certain body parts and the subsequent injuries. Not sure about the requirement of all the melee and hand-to-hand moves requiring martial arts as a skill, though. I mean, some of these moves an unskilled flake knows how to pull off.
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Must say after looking over the third preview, I'm overjoyed that their finally going more in-depth with the called shots to certain body parts and the subsequent injuries. Not sure about the requirement of all the melee and hand-to-hand moves requiring martial arts as a skill, though. I mean, some of these moves an unskilled flake knows how to pull off.
I wonder if this might not be a slight typo as they mention at the start of the called shot section how some of the Called Shots in the chapter also double as Martial Arts techniques, which are moves a trained character can buy for Karma and then make use of at a discounted modifier.
That implies that some of the skills that play double duty should be able to be used by regular joes as a called shot, but when you pay Karma and learn it as a Technique you get better performance out of it i.e. less modifier to pull off.
Will have to see how the final cut explains this better....
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That needs to be made more clear. As it stands currently, each of Zoe's lines is its own manufacturer. The tables have the name of the line on them instead of the name of the manufacturer. However, all of the Ares Victory stuff is properly formatted.
When I read it, the little blurb on Zoe actually told read like Zoe no longer existed, and it had been subsumed into Armante. Thus, I figured that paragraph basically said, "Zoe's not around anymore. So if you're looking for their stuff, you'll be disappointed."
Other way round - Armante is a part of Zoe. Which implies the grammar needs to be cleaned up for the final product.
Zoe bought out Armante in the wake of Crash 2.0 - I was disappointed that Armante seemed to be a discontinued label/line for much of SR4. The mix-matching of armour-rated Tres Chic clothing was a minor interest, and helped to individualise characters.
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Must say after looking over the third preview, I'm overjoyed that their finally going more in-depth with the called shots to certain body parts and the subsequent injuries. Not sure about the requirement of all the melee and hand-to-hand moves requiring martial arts as a skill, though. I mean, some of these moves an unskilled flake knows how to pull off.
I wonder if this might not be a slight typo as they mention at the start of the called shot section how some of the Called Shots in the chapter also double as Martial Arts techniques, which are moves a trained character can buy for Karma and then make use of at a discounted modifier.
That implies that some of the skills that play double duty should be able to be used by regular joes as a called shot, but when you pay Karma and learn it as a Technique you get better performance out of it i.e. less modifier to pull off.
Will have to see how the final cut explains this better....
I agree. The wording of some of the new called shots seems to imply that you can only perform the action when you have the required martial arts skill/quality/technique/whatever. It's odd phrasing, but perhaps with more information it'll be made clear.
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I'm not sure why "Second Skin" was added when Form Fitting Body Armor was basically what that was (armor that isn't noticed), but eh. With all of the armor pieces that are custom fit, it might've been easier to just say all armor was this by default and then note ones that were "loose fit" or something like that.
On page 23 under the description for FFBA, it states: "primary value of FFBA is its highly concealability." The sentence should read "primary value of FFBA is its high concealability".
FFBA can be worn under clothes. Second Skin can be worn as clothes. The first is highly concealable...to the eye. The second flat out cannot be found at all, I imagine.