Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: firebug on <02-24-14/1215:27>

Title: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-24-14/1215:27>
I've been paging through a bunch of sci-fi and cyberpunk pictures and came across one with a character wielding a knife while it crackles with blue electricity.  After some googling, it turns out it'd happened in real life, so I'm surprised something like that hasn't been in Shadowrun.

It seems like it'd be a cool weapon, up there with shock gloves, but I'm not sure how I'd handle it.  I wanna get the elephant in the room out of the way first though--  I know that it's neither RAW or RAI for "punching someone with your shock gloves" to add unarmed damage, and I don't want a weapon like that.  An electrified sword is a pretty flashy sci-fi weapon though, so it'd be cool to figure out that stats for one.

I've never seen any kind of weapon in the game do split damage though, so I'd assume the whole thing would have to be electric damage.

In order for it to not just be better or worse than shock gloves...  Let's see.

NAME            | ACCURACY      | REACH     | DAMAGE      | AP  |AVAIL | COST
Stun Dagger | 5                     | -              | (STR+1)P(e)| -3   | 10R   |500¥

Basing the accuracy and damage on a normal knife, but giving it more AP to reflect how elemental damage is handled.  I didn't go as high as Shock Gloves because the blade itself is still a factor.  I feel like the damage should be way higher, since logically it should hurt more than stabbing someone with a knife, but I didn't want it to completely overshadow the Combat Knife, even taking the same restrictions as the Shock Gloves into account.

Any ideas on what could logically be done to it for it to fit better without making it simply overpowered?
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: JackVII on <02-24-14/1225:51>
I'd probably just look at how they handled Club -> Stun Baton and mimic that. Damage is probably closer to the static 8S or 9S of the shock gloves and stun baton. Probably closer to 8S to be honest. AP for the electric weapons is a static -5.

Basically, shock gloves for someone with terrible physical stats or a more conealable, less damaging stun baton.
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-24-14/1304:10>
I could do that, but it seems weird to me for it to do Stun damage if you're also cutting them or stabbing them with a knife, you know?  With the stun baton and shock gloves, I assume you're just kind of poking someone.  Like the baton is more or less just a melee-range taser or cattle prod.  Which is why it's not based on strength for damage at all, too.  Like I said, I made the AP lower to take into account that it interacts with armor more because actually cutting or piercing is still relevant.

I'm trying to design an electric weapon that you still wound people with--  Not as an alternative non-lethal option, but as just an enhancement to the weapon in general at the expense of it requiring a battery or power source.
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: JackVII on <02-24-14/1315:25>
I probably wouldn't call it a Stun Dagger if you don't intend for it to stun.

It's probably balanced okay. Against mooks, (S) and (P) are generally supposed to be the same thing, so it shouldn't make a big difference. With that said, if you give it to someone with a really solid strength, they are going to be wrecking stuff, particularly with the seperate dice penalty and initiative penalty that electrical attacks deliver.

I think one of the things that should be considered is that it shouldn't benefit from the glancing attack rules and you can't use it to just do a touch attack. I would also think this might be a Forbidden weapon, just considering how nasty it is. Then again, I've never really understood how cyberimplant blades are forbidden when cyberimplant guns are not (even silenced/supressed, if one goes strictly by the chart), so I'm not sure what goes into the calculation there.
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: Sendaz on <02-24-14/1424:31>
Maybe treat it like vibroweapons , but the added damage is from the crackling electricity rather than high oscillation of the blade and you have the added element of (e) for zapping people/frying electronics.
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-24-14/1431:21>
I like the idea of the vibroblade comparison.  I'm not completely sure what the purpose of a weapon like this would be though.  If you're trying to stun, you generally aren't also trying to kill.  I'd treat it as a lethal weapon that has the added benefits that come from being struck with an electric weapon.  The AP issue is legitimate though - does the weapon have to puncture to do damage (like a knife)?  If so, the AP should be based on the knife.  If not, it should be based on the club.
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: Sendaz on <02-24-14/1512:46>
Then again, I've never really understood how cyberimplant blades are forbidden when cyberimplant guns are not (even silenced/supressed, if one goes strictly by the chart), so I'm not sure what goes into the calculation there.
I would ask what is the legality of a cyberimplant screwdriver?  Legal device that I use on the job and still can shank someone with it. :P
Title: Re: Stun blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-24-14/1541:04>
I like the idea of the vibroblade comparison.  I'm not completely sure what the purpose of a weapon like this would be though.  If you're trying to stun, you generally aren't also trying to kill.  I'd treat it as a lethal weapon that has the added benefits that come from being struck with an electric weapon.  The AP issue is legitimate though - does the weapon have to puncture to do damage (like a knife)?  If so, the AP should be based on the knife.  If not, it should be based on the club.

The "stun" in the title was a misnomer...  Sorry on my part.  I'll rename the thread to something else.  I do intend for the final result to be a 100% lethal weapon, which is why I'm having trouble balancing it since the idea of the eletricity would be the add lethality to a melee weapon that is still relatively concealable (assuming the base weapon is a dagger of some sort).  The closest "real life example" I've seen can still shock someone with a touch, but it didn't actually seem to hurt them much so in Shadowrun it'd be fair to say it can't do damage unless you've punctured them with the knife.

I don't know how vibroblades work in Shadowrun, so I can't really say about them...  But if I think about it just in terms of "high damage and good concealability but has charges" could I go with like...  STR + 4 for the damage, keeping the AP at -3?  If it needs it, I could also see an excuse for it having less charges too--  Like, only five or something.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-24-14/1543:54>
I might go with a weapon with bonus-damage and bonus-AP, so a knife that has to first do Physical damage (aka Pierce the Armor) and then gives out the electrical zap.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-24-14/1629:58>
That would be interesting, Michael.  Something with a trigger built into the handle?  OOOoooh, and the wireless bonus could be that you can electrify the handle of the blade to shock someone that shouldn't be using it.  :P
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-24-14/1642:47>
I might go with a weapon with bonus-damage and bonus-AP, so a knife that has to first do Physical damage (aka Pierce the Armor) and then gives out the electrical zap.

So like, the knife just functions like a normal knife, but when you hit, if you deal Physical damage you can then force them to resist another attack that's like a slightly weaker Stun Glove hit?  That's like how I've heard people suggest punching with stun gloves work, but the fact that you'll need to do physical damage does make it less abusable (not that I'm sure how abusable it'd be in the first place).
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-24-14/1650:36>
Nah, a double attack is more problematic and works poorly against people with high soak rolls. I'd just boost the knife's attack on a hit. Or you could always include the electrical damage but make it Stun if the knife (without the added electrical AP&damage) doesn't pierce the armor.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <02-24-14/1723:52>
I would personally just stat it out doing physical damage and then include in the rules that damage is split between Stun and Physical as though the wielder had been making a called shot using the Splitting the Difference rules (SR5, p. 196).

The applicable rule:
Quote
If the attack is successful the damage is split between the two condition monitors; if the damage was an odd number, make the Stun Damage the higher value. If the modified total Damage Value of the attack is less than the modified Armor Value of the defense, the attack ends up doing only half damage, all of it applied to Stun.

There are probably better ways to capture the flavor, but I prefer to reuse rules that exist when I can. Keeps things simple.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-24-14/1725:39>
My suggestion is to treat it like the melee weapon then as long as it does any damage apply the normal electrical penalties (initiative reduction and whatever else...away from book), but no additional damage.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-24-14/1754:17>
My suggestion is to treat it like the melee weapon then as long as it does any damage apply the normal electrical penalties (initiative reduction and whatever else...away from book), but no additional damage.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-24-14/1842:43>
Nah, a double attack is more problematic and works poorly against people with high soak rolls. I'd just boost the knife's attack on a hit. Or you could always include the electrical damage but make it Stun if the knife (without the added electrical AP&damage) doesn't pierce the armor.

Well, that's how it'd be in general wouldn't it?  If it says like "6P(e)" but it doesn't beat armor, it's Stun no matter what, right?

My suggestion is to treat it like the melee weapon then as long as it does any damage apply the normal electrical penalties (initiative reduction and whatever else...away from book), but no additional damage.

That would prettymuch just be it dealing electrical damage then, which works.

So the final product would just be a knife that has the same general stats as a like...  The combat knife, with maybe one higher DV and AP, also doing electrical damage, which would mean it can cause some penalties, but also allows the defender to benefit from Nonconductivity which could result in less damage than a normal combat knife.  Sounds balanced to me.  It'd also be higher availability and price, though not really enough for them to be balancing factors.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Sendaz on <02-24-14/1908:49>
maybe have the knife have two blades sort of like THIS (http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/c/TS-GHSK02_540.jpg) but with more distinct separation near the hilt between the two blades so the electricity arcs between them for added appearance or does the  Jacob's Ladder  (http://deskarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/jacobs-ladder.jpg)look.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Mithlas on <02-25-14/0048:04>
That's a single blade with an open fuller to allow blood to drain and help ease removal. Metal Gear Solid (http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_weapons) (4 at least) already did what I think is the most likely version of this: a standard combat knife that has a shock surface on the reverse edge and a few charges. Combine the cost of a Stun Baton and standard knife, maybe add a bit to the availability and treat it as a 4-6 charge for dealing 6S(e).
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-25-14/1918:08>
The weapon from MGS isn't what I want, since it's essentially just one weapon usable two different ways.  I do want something that is intended to do both at once, using the electricity to improve it's lethality.


NAME                | ACCURACY      | REACH     | DAMAGE      | AP  |AVAIL | COST
Electrified Knife | 5                     | -              | (STR+3)P(e)| -4   | 10R   |1600¥

With 10 charges and a wireless bonus of letting it recharge slowly like the shock gloves.  Assumably, when used without power, it's the same stats as a combat knife.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-26-14/0016:18>
Looks cool.  I like the idea - it's definitely using electricity damage in a different way.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Reaver on <02-26-14/0550:08>
Very dangerous. both for the user and the person attacked.

For the person attacked, IRL, the electricity would cause the muscles to flex, basically immobilizing the person. After the first discharge, they would be disorientated, all their muscles twitching, and basically unable to offer an effective defense against a second attack.

For the attacker, IRL,  this weapon is extremely dangerous AFTER the first hit. Electricity always follows the path of least resistance, and once you introduce a liquid medium (in this case the victim's blood!! all over the blade...), that path becomes unpredictable.... and any insulation protecting the user, could fail, thus ending up shocking them!



**Note, the current in the blade would not be large enough to cauterize the wound, as the Amperage would not be able to be made large enough and portable enough to make an effective use weapon. (you need around 3 to 5.25 amps to cause instant cauterization within a combat pass [1 sec]. At which point, the cauterization is really just a secondary effect of a case of terminal Death.) Generating that much instant amperage on a constant basis is possible, but not really portable. to get your 10 charges or so, you would need something the size of a car battery.


remember, cauterization and surface burns are two different things!
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-26-14/0746:37>
that path becomes unpredictable.... and any insulation protecting the user, could fail, thus ending up shocking them!
In other words, on a critical glitch hit yourself?
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Reaver on <02-26-14/1951:28>
that path becomes unpredictable.... and any insulation protecting the user, could fail, thus ending up shocking them!
In other words, on a critical glitch hit yourself?

Would be appropriate.  Safety and offensive weaponry are conflicting terms, especially in melee weapons. Throw electricity in the mix and you are asking for trouble...


Im not saying you can't build the weapon, just saying there is a reason why electricity is used with blunt melee, and ranged puncturing ....
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <02-26-14/2154:14>
That definitely explains why it's not used in real life.  For me, that's the sort of thing that would be able to be overlooked or handwaved ("they found a way to not have to worry about that") in a game like Shadowrun, but it's interesting to note.  And totally reasonable for a Critical Glitch effect.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: KarmaInferno on <03-04-14/1926:04>
I've been paging through a bunch of sci-fi and cyberpunk pictures and came across one with a character wielding a knife while it crackles with blue electricity.  After some googling, it turns out it'd happened in real life, so I'm surprised something like that hasn't been in Shadowrun.

Ironically the first thing that pops up when I search for "shock knife" is a decidedy non lethal knife training device. It works on the theory that people won't take a rubber knife as seriously in knife fight training, so the shock knife creates pain at the point of contact to trigger that involuntary fear of actual injury often lacking with rubber knives.




-k
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: martinchaen on <03-04-14/2011:40>
Remember that we're 70 years in the future; miniaturization tech could very likely have improved batteries to where cauterizing a wound could be possible.

I like this concept; now I want an electrified katana! :D
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Reaver on <03-05-14/0251:20>
Remember that we're 70 years in the future; miniaturization tech could very likely have improved batteries to where cauterizing a wound could be possible.

I like this concept; now I want an electrified katana! :D


you can only squeeze so many electrons in to any container :P

we have batteries that could in theory do it today, you just couldn't carry them around :D

believe it or not, but electricity has mass... and lots of the properties of water. So it's more a question of physics, and that is a weak point for me.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: martinchaen on <03-05-14/0803:11>
Miniaturization of batteries is one thing, it's not that far of a stretch that sufficiently advanced tech could allow fuel cells or generators to replace batteries, is it?

But for the purposes of suspension of disbelief, why don't we just go with "They made a small enough power source for it" and then you can imagine whatever you want :)
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Insaniac99 on <03-19-14/1857:43>
I found this video of a homemade "Taser Sword" (http://youtu.be/fwzrWpB8_R0)

http://youtu.be/fwzrWpB8_R0
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <03-19-14/1904:55>
Yup!  I saw that.  It's why I was like "This has to be possible in Shadowrun."
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Reaver on <03-19-14/1938:59>
Yup!  I saw that.  It's why I was like "This has to be possible in Shadowrun."

remember that bit where he hit both electric blades with the 2 other swords and got a shock?

Same thing with liquid on the blades.. and on the attackers hand. It would complete the circuit causing you to zap yourself.

The reason why hitting the blades with a single blade didn't work is that it is not a compete circuit, thus the electricity had no where to go..
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Insaniac99 on <03-19-14/2106:49>
Yup!  I saw that.  It's why I was like "This has to be possible in Shadowrun."

remember that bit where he hit both electric blades with the 2 other swords and got a shock?

Same thing with liquid on the blades.. and on the attackers hand. It would complete the circuit causing you to zap yourself.

The reason why hitting the blades with a single blade didn't work is that it is not a compete circuit, thus the electricity had no where to go..

A simple hand guard would stop blood from flowing onto the user.  Anywhere else and it would complete the circuit, but that's what the two blades are already doing, soon as you have flesh that is grounded it would take that path instead of the blood.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Reaver on <03-19-14/2122:21>
Yup!  I saw that.  It's why I was like "This has to be possible in Shadowrun."

remember that bit where he hit both electric blades with the 2 other swords and got a shock?

Same thing with liquid on the blades.. and on the attackers hand. It would complete the circuit causing you to zap yourself.

The reason why hitting the blades with a single blade didn't work is that it is not a compete circuit, thus the electricity had no where to go..

A simple hand guard would stop blood from flowing onto the user.  Anywhere else and it would complete the circuit, but that's what the two blades are already doing, soon as you have flesh that is grounded it would take that path instead of the blood.

Something like a basket hilt might work.... (covers the entire hand)...

what you don't want is the free flowing blood (such as a stab) coming into contact with your hand and the blade at the same time (or even really close for that matter as the electricity can jump a short distance and still zap you....)


Electricity is a dangerous beast. I have zapped myself thousands of times over the years, and I know that I am doing! Every year, I lose about 100 brothers (I.B.E.W member) to electrocution, and these are people that are trained to handle and deal with electrical equipment and supplies!



(And for the record... that was a ballsy move he did using electrical tape. Electrical tape is NOT an insolator so depending on how he wired everything, he just might get a good zap just grabbing that thing one day!)
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Insaniac99 on <03-20-14/0002:32>
Something like a basket hilt might work.... (covers the entire hand)...

what you don't want is the free flowing blood (such as a stab) coming into contact with your hand and the blade at the same time (or even really close for that matter as the electricity can jump a short distance and still zap you....)


Electricity is a dangerous beast. I have zapped myself thousands of times over the years, and I know that I am doing! Every year, I lose about 100 brothers (I.B.E.W member) to electrocution, and these are people that are trained to handle and deal with electrical equipment and supplies!
I haven't seen real blade/blood flow tests, but I think you are overestimating how much blood would stay on the blade.

I definitely agree electricity is dangerous, I work with computers and part of our safety course is seeing what can happen when you fool around with the relatively low voltages we work with.

(And for the record... that was a ballsy move he did using electrical tape. Electrical tape is NOT an insolator so depending on how he wired everything, he just might get a good zap just grabbing that thing one day!)

I doubt it was so much ballsy as pure ignorance.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: HarshRhettoric on <04-02-14/1026:04>
I would be leery of any weapon as short as a knife that was electrified along its entire length.  Any canny character who saw such a weapon (and still wanted to fight) would do their best to grapple you so that if you hit them, you would both take half the voltage.

Also, who would design this weapon?  Is this a one-off, or custom piece?  What is the market for this weapon?  Will a lot of people buy it?  How would it be marketed as anything other than a weapon of complete cruelty that would annihilate the reputation of any company that put it on the market as anything other than a gag weapon?

I thought about this, and here's what I came up with:

-Extra shocking mechanism in case they survive your first stab
(anyone who can survive your first stab and still fight back is probably not going to be put off by an additional shock) = lawsuit

-Good for taking down trolls/critters
(maybe, if it weren't so inhumane) = lawsuit

-A humane knife that does massive tissue damage, but also cauterizes the wound
(maybe, except electricity burns inside out, and leaves wounds highly susceptible to infection.  Often, you would be sealing contaminants in the wound) = lawsuit

I would probably allow it as a custom weapon, made by a truly sadistic Humanis armorer.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: Namikaze on <04-02-14/1145:22>
Fortunately, lawsuits don't matter much to:

Dead people
Megacorporations
Militaries
Shadowrunners

Of course, that's all in 2075.  Today, lawsuits have a lot of power.  As evidenced by Dana Oaks, the DA in Seattle, lawsuits don't have the teeth that they have now.  She's gotten further than anyone with bringing down Brackhaven, the local Humanis chapters, corruption, etc.  But she's still only barely touched the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: Electrified Blades?
Post by: firebug on <04-02-14/1223:22>
Also, who would design this weapon?  Is this a one-off, or custom piece?  What is the market for this weapon?  Will a lot of people buy it?  How would it be marketed as anything other than a weapon of complete cruelty that would annihilate the reputation of any company that put it on the market as anything other than a gag weapon?

I feel like you don't really understand the setting; flamethrowers were used publicly in a war against Amazonia I believe, and 4th edition had the -very- inhumane nanomachines that would essentially painfully melt you from the inside.  Combat spells consist of bursts of acid, gouts of flame, blasts of lightning...  In addition as Namikaze said, lawsuits don't do much.  A major facet of the cyberpunk genre is that people with money are beyond the law (something that's often unfortunately true now, at least in America).  While the weapon has a few things that don't make 100% sense and would make it unreliable in real life, legality and other similar things are not what would stop it from existing in Shadowrun.