Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: stoner68 on <02-25-14/0147:35>
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From the books, why did Tir Tairngire invade California? They didn't need the room and the very northern part of California is pretty barren. Also, the time from setting up their own state to becoming a military power seems way too fast.
Do any of the Tir books describe the front lines? Once Hestaby jumps in it may be peaceful and stable but I want to set a campaign in NorCal in 2050. Any extra background would be helpful.
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I'm not sure the original authors had a clear idea of what would be the reason and why would they need one (besides, the reason why immortal elves from Eastern Europe put some much effort int establishing a kingdom in Oregon is just as obscure).
Tir Tairngire, page 32
After the Tir so brilliantly proved it could defend and expand its borders, thereby supporting its claim of independence.
California Free State, page 22-23
[Some green-minded people] like to point out that the Tir's biggest reason for invading California in the first place was to "save" the redwood groves and the wooded hillside from exploitation by the UCAS, the Japanacorps, and the California state government. [...] Then there are those of us who just fell a wee mite skeptical about the Tir's good intentions. Sure, they want to keep the agribusiness boys and the megacorps and the UCAS from exploiting the Crescent - because that way, the Tir gets all the plunder to itself. They probably won't wreck the environment - they're not stupid enough to tap the very resources they went war for - but they'll do as much damage as they can get away wtih, prodded Tir-based corps that are every bit as profit-greedy as any other megacorp. The Northern Crescent and everything in it will exist for them to use. If they get control over the Crescent - directly or by proxy - we can kiss our freedom good-by.
>>>>>(Maybe I wouldn't trust a Tir elf with my credstick, but I'd trust him to keep the water clean and the trees growing. They've proved how much they care about a decent environment - the redwood groves are still standing. Flourishing, in fact. If the Tir had a secret plot to despoil the environment by inches, those groves wouldn't be doing half so well.)<<<<<
-Mudskipper (12:30:41/02-07-57)
>>>>>(Those groves are the Tir's biggest source of profits - they're chock full of virgin-pure materials for enchanting fetishes and foci. Of course the Tir's not going to trash the source of their biggest industry. But that same desire for profit makes the whole Northern Crescent look to them like one big shiny magical toy for the taking. They want our land, and they'll make a move to take it eventually. It's just a matter of time. The strike on Shasta Dam in '53 was a practice run - they wanted to see how alert we were. If we want to hold on to our land and make sure we keep the profits from harvesting pure magical mateials, our only chance is to unite. By ourselves, we're easy marks - together, we can keep everyone else out.)<<<<<
-Tom Paine (14:35:56/02-07-57)
California Free State, page 24
According to Tir officialdom, their sole motive for conquest was noble one: to save the precious redwood groves from despoliation by ravening hordes of California natives (read: non-elves only). [...] A few Tir elves have been known to admit to a second motive - somewhat less altruistic, but still defensible by their terms. They say the Tir invaded California in order to carve out needed living space for elves displaced by non-elf Native Americans, as well as those fleeing anti-elven prejudice throughout North America. According to them, the elven race has the same right to self-determination as any other race or nation; Tir Tairngire's foundation and expansion was therefore a moral imperative, and those inconvenienced by it merely paid a debt incurred by the bigotry of their fellow humans or orks or what-have-you in other parts of what was once America.
Of course, rhe economical argument requires you to subscribe to the idea that the fetishes and foci could be anything more than a ridiculously small niche market.
As for the "frontline", the books say Tir Tairngire consider is border to run south of Redding, while California consider its border runs north of Yreka. Everything in between is some sort of buffer zone, where both side avoid moving any significant military assets as neither of them really want to engage into a new war.
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And there also was a Dragon there. Not anymore...
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Of course, rhe economical argument requires you to subscribe to the idea that the fetishes and foci could be anything more than a ridiculously small niche market.
Hmmm.
A common percentage put magically active individuals - usefully active individuals - at 1:1000. With 7 billion souls, that's a market of seven million - or even just seven hundred thousand, if it's 1:10,000. Yes, across the planet, but if you have exclusive access to a gold field, the seven million (or 700,000) people who can afford pricey gold rings are still gonna mean you can make a good deal of money off that 'ridiculously small niche market'. A mage who puts fetishes to great use is spending between ¥50 and ¥500 per fetish; think of those in terms of 'dollar', if that helps you wrap your head around it better. $50 to $500 to 'do my job better' - a combat knife, or a pistol. If he's burning them up, hell, he's a money tree for you.
And remember, fetishes are not the only use of reagents - just the least expensive ones. Conjure and bind a F6 spirit? Build a focus?? Cripes, military combat vehicles can be less expensive than a single powerful enchanted focus. God help you if you stack the damn thing. (And yes, like many things in SR5, magical gear is significantly ... altered, let us say.)
All this means that though the number of individuals may be specific and limited, the combination of market size, individual item expense, and unique demand (because you can be sure corps stockpile reagents &c. just as readily as they do bullets and grenades) means that trying to acquire exclusive control of a reagent-rich area is just as economically sound as trying to acquire control over any other resource zone.
Here, let's do some math. Presume those one-in-a-thousand - no, let's pare it down further, one reagent-using individual in ten thousand. Say every one of those 700,000 people uses only an average of ¥250 in reagents per month. That's between 12 and 13 uses per month, averaged out across the board. Going by that base amount, for each one of those 700,000 people, that's a market of ¥175,000,000 per month - or ¥2.1 billion per year. Increase your mystic quantity to one in a thousand, and that's ¥21 billion a year. Sure, you'll probably sell more in Choco-Melon Super-Squishees, but that's an awfully low 'price point' we're starting out with - and after all, they do still sell Choco-Melon Super-Squishees at the Stuffer Shack ...
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The 5th edition rules for reagents does give a lot more room for such a market to exist. But since California Free State was written under 2nd edition rules, I was refering to those.
As far as 1st and 2nd editions were concerned, reusable fetishes cost only ten times that of non-reusable fetishes. And both required to learn a specific version of the spell. I somehow corporate procurement departments would stockpile non-reusable fetishes for the mere benefit of 1 additional point of Force and the risk and running out of it, if reusable ones are available. And it is equally unlikely people would spend an average of 250¥ a month for the same reason.
As a comparison, the entire chocolate market is about 90 billions US$; 60% of it comes from West Africa and 40% from Ivory Coast. And in this case, the product is much certainly consumed and cannot be reused. And per the books, Tir Tairngire is nowhere near being the only country with access to potent telesma.
If you calculate the other way, per the Grimoire rules, a competent Enchanter, with Enchanting skill 6, can produce between 5,000 and 50,000¥ a year worth of reusable fetishes a year (no day off), depending on the spell category. The average on all five categories would be 23,000¥. For non-reusable fetishes it's even less (half less with Intelligence 5).
Even if Tir Tairngire had twice as much Awakened than the rest of the world, 2%, and they all worked as gatherer and enchanter (24/24 and 7/7, children included), the yearly output would be under ¥2.6 billion. That is, about 0.85% of the national GDP before the economical downturn of the late 2050ies. A more realistic number (...as far as it can be when magic is concerned) would be only a fraction of that.
Besides, NPC stats from adventures don't show fetishes to be that widespread. That sure would have felt very cyberpunk if megacorporations only released formulaes that required non-reusable fetishes, so that customers need to buy one fetish for every time they want to cast it, while only corporate employees would get to learn the unrestricted version. But shamans' "I learned any spell I want from my totem" doomed the idea from a game perspective anyway.
There's probably some money to make, but no big money. And certainly not enough to justify a war of aggression.
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What about ley lines and such?
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Game-wise, the Ley Lines originally were introduced only in relations to Great Britain. It's only with the addition of Chinese geomancy considerations late in the 2nd edition (along with the rise of Wuxing) that it was considered to merge the concept with dragons lines and extend it elsewhere.
We didn't get information on North American manalines before Parageology. There is a "Type D(ragon), Class 3" manaline called the Yellowstone Thermal Line, that runs from Vichy and Orr Springs in California, up to Mount Saint Heles and Rainier, beore heading east toward Yellowstone, then north again (not that it makes any sense geologically-wise, the Cascade volcans are the results of tectonic movement on the edge of the North American plate, while Yellowstone is the result of upper mantle "hotspot" under the plate). Maybe things will be retconed to make it significant, but currently there is no indication that it is.
As far as connecting dots and volcanoes for a retcon go, Mount Shasta is more interesting. Tir Tairngire never mentions Hestaby as far as I remember, so she appears to be a late addition. The first mention of her had her repelling elven troops from Shasta Dam in 2053, before either establishing or reclaiming her lair at Mount Shasta proper (dam and mount are 77 kilometers apart). The fact she did not stopped Tir Tairngire from stepping into the area as early as 2035 may suggest she had not awaken at the time.
So possibly the Tir princes may have tried to find and seize Hestaby lair while she was sleeping (there or in another one), knowing it was somewhere around. In this case, the presence of two dragons along with the elven troops would have a quite different meaning, especially considering the immortal elves records with sleeping dragons.
Also, the only reason I can imagine immortal elves would pick Oregon as their kingdom, out of random chance, is the particular astral nature of Crater Lake. From what we know of Earthdawn-era magic, they may have wanted to create a nation "Pattern" they would control, that would include Crater Lake.
It happens that local Amerindian legends has Mount Shasta and Crater Lake related. The Klamath tribe tells Mount Shasta was the home of the good spirit and Mount Mazama the home of the evil spirit. The good spirit won and blow out the top of the Mazama moutain, creating Crater Lake. So maybe the Pattern of Crater Lake and Mount Shasta are related.
Just ideas though.
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They also took Lake Tahoe.
Maybe it's some elemental theme? Shasta could be Earth or Fire (extinct volcano), or sky... I'm not sure offhand what the tallest mountain in Oregon is (Mt. Hood, evidently, which is ~3000' lower than Mt. Shasta). Lake Tahoe is probably deeper than anything west of the Great Lakes (actually, it's not as deep as Crater Lake, but that may not be a "natural-enough" formation, or the "space rock" may have afftected the mana profile, or whatever), and it may still be the "purest" local water in the 6th World. So that and the Redwoods add two more "legs" to that table.
If they were intent on harvesting Elemental Air/Earth/Fire/Water/Wood, the Tir seems to have covered it's bases.
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Also, the Tir probably thought they could just walk in and take whatever they want from Northern Cali, since, they no longer had the UCAS military to back them. Or maybe they were planning on annexing the entire state. However, once the Californians actually put up a good fight, this was clearly a bad idea. Elves are not known for being humble, so they probably didn't want to back down or else it might have hurt their pride.
The real question is why did the Orange Queen stop the elves from taking CalFree? She was on the Council of Princes. So she should have a vested interest in seeing Tir Tairngire expand and become more powerful. But she probably knows something we don't.
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At the time, Hestaby was NOT on the Council of Princes. She became a Tir Prince in the 2060s.
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Actually, Nath, 5e reagents cut the market off at the legs. Talent is both rare and worthwhile, therefore valuable; corporate mages and adepts can easily earn six figures, and the corporation has a vested interest in keeping their mages both happy and powerful, and so will subsidize (or at the very least extend generous loan terms) a mage or adept's quest for power. Remember also that spells that require single-use fetishes were also easier to learn; while the opposition characters faced may have not taken advantage of this fact, it only makes sense that many mages would.
In addition, one does not require a magic rating to collect raw materials, only some level of knowledge (therefore skill) in doing so. As well, the Tir wouldn't need to personally do the collecting and creating; that's what migrant workers and licensing is about.
Otherwise, nice analysis about the power lines and the mountain supposition.
And yes, DeathStrobe, Hestaby wasn't a member of the Tir at the time. I don't actually recall whether or not Lofwyr was; however, considering that the two Tirs were spearheaded by immortal elves, and that IEs and Great Dragons have a hate/hate thing going, pretty much no matter what Hestaby had a vested interest in seeing Tir Tairngire get its expansionist agenda shot down.
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The real question is why did the Orange Queen stop the elves from taking CalFree? She was on the Council of Princes.
It might have been as simple as too many incendiary rounds/grenades, fireballs, acid streams, or a stray cannon/missile shot putting a chink in the dam.
No one fights a war on her turf, without her on one side or the other (right, Lofwyr?), and she'd probably seen enough to know that the Tir forces were the aggressors. Then she took steps to make sure the mistake wasn't repeated, by either side. 'Cause both sides were a few kernels short of a JiffyPop, at that point.
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... if you say so ...
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Man, I failed that geography test. I live in NorCal and would have bet the farm that the Redwoods were between Fort Bragg and Eureka.
I remember from 1st Ed Neo Anarchist Guide to North America that even in 2050 there were rumors of a dragon at Mt Shasta. That is interesting that the Tir might have wanted to catch her sleeping in 2036.
I had not heard that the elves reached Tahoe before either. I know the 2075 border is a good way north of there.
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And Ghost knows where the 2080 border will lie, with Hestaby's lair burned to the ground...
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Also, the Tir probably thought they could just walk in and take whatever they want from Northern Cali, since, they no longer had the UCAS military to back them. Or maybe they were planning on annexing the entire state. However, once the Californians actually put up a good fight, this was clearly a bad idea. Elves are not known for being humble, so they probably didn't want to back down or else it might have hurt their pride.
San Francisco sprawl alone has a population of more than 8 million persons. I'm not even considering Los Angeles. When the plan is to establish an elven homeland, that's probably not the smartest move to turn a 80% majority into a <35% minority.
In addition, one does not require a magic rating to collect raw materials, only some level of knowledge (therefore skill) in doing so.
Again, I was thinking with 2nd edition rules. It then requiresd the Enchanting skill, that only character with a Magic attribute could learn. Only later did the 3rd edition introduce a Talismongering knowledge skill available to mundanes for gathering, before the 4th edition made Enchanting available to everyone.
And yes, DeathStrobe, Hestaby wasn't a member of the Tir at the time. I don't actually recall whether or not Lofwyr was
According to Tir Tairngire, the incursion into northern California took place in early 2036, and Lofwyr joined the council of princes in mid-2036. Dragons of the Sixth also says 2036 for the latter, while Shadows of North America says August 2035, just fourth months after the proclamation of Tir Tairngire.
I remember from 1st Ed Neo Anarchist Guide to North America that even in 2050 there were rumors of a dragon at Mt Shasta. That is interesting that the Tir might have wanted to catch her sleeping in 2036.
No. Mount Shasta is never mentioned in The Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America. That must have been another book.
The idea that Tir Tairngire moved into Northern California searching for Hestaby's lair is only one theory of mine.
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The real reason.... Cali was breaking up. San Fran isn't even U.S. soil anymore. The Tir took the wooded northern parts in part to save it. It also settled some old border disputes in the process.
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It also settled some old border disputes in the process.
And started a whole load of new ones. ;D
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It also settled some old border disputes in the process.
Between whom? Tow extremely young states (in 2036)? That makes no sense. I'd got with the whole "mystic pattern high magic" stuff as the main reason for the invasion - it's still not a good reason, but at least it's one.
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There's a third impetus to TT's invasion; Aztlan's invasion in the south. I don't have all my books with me, but I *feel* that Aztlan moved first. Then Tir. The only thing I can find to support right now is just the order in which it's stated in the Almanac (but that's not great support). And of course if it happened in the opposite order then I'd be wrong and it would cease to be a third reason for the Tir's invasion in northern CFS.
If Aztlan moved first, and it was a move hot on the heels of their invasion/acquisition of parts of Texas. then the Tir may have used the invasion as a political statement to the Azzies: Keep coming north and we're going to share a border. Add to that, Aztlan taking the southern state would be far more taxing than taking the northern half. The first 320 km of coastal southern CA is heavily heavily populated. The first 320 km of coastal northern CA is sparsely populated, to say the least.
All the core reasons listed above (especially those backed up by citation) still stand (I'm not disagreeing). But if Aztlan had not invaded (and invaded first), then I would bet a couple of ¥ that the Tir would have bode (bided?) their time in order to find a more effective way of annexation of the far northern CFS.