Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Namikaze on <02-28-14/1648:32>

Title: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <02-28-14/1648:32>
Carried over from the House Rule thread.

The IP system had a lot going for it, in terms of board movement rules.  The current system doesn't really allow for this to translate as well.  We still end up with the equivalent of IPs though, in Action Phases.  What we can do is determine the maximum number of Action Phases at start, then give every player the ability to move during every Action Phase, regardless of their Initiative.  Divide the character's walking speed by the number of Action Phases, and you've got a baseline movement rate per Action Phase.  Barring something stopping you from moving (death, knockdown, a bear-hugging troll) you can move on each of your Action Phases.

Considerations that need work:
What happens when you're out of Initiative?
What happens when your Initiative gets boosted?
What happens when someone decides to run in one Action Phase and walk in another?
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: FasterN8 on <02-28-14/1747:54>
Quote from: FasterN8 link
Also carried over from the House Rule thread.

We divided movement by 3 and gave every character a free action to spend in each initiative pass regardless of initiative score.  So every player got to move in the first 3 initiative passes, but (obviously) not every character had the initiative score to actually act productively throughout all that movement.

The result of our house rule was that on the first initiative pass, people did lots of running for cover and sometimes had to make sprint tests to do it, which sounds a lot like what the start of a firefight should look like.  Rarely was anyone in combat ever just walking.  It also meant that low initiative characters were constantly engaged if only to a smaller degree.

So to translate that houserule to 5th edition, a character with a 3 agility would have a run rate of 12, so 4 meters per initiative pass without a sprint test.  That's more than 13 feet in about 1 second starting from a dead stop.   That's enough to cross a small room or get to cover in most cases, and that's just a guy with average agility and no running skill.  Things get a lot more interesting with higher agility and sprint tests.  (I also think that sprint tests should remain simple actions)

Now, I understand that melee characters benefited greatly from the "teleport" type movement of RAW 5th edition, but the cases where an agile melee character cannot close to melee range with this system should be relatively rare (10+ meters).  And I have no sympathy for players who complain about not being able to attack with their sword from 25+ meters before the enemy can even get a single shot off.

To expand upon this, we always rounded toward the earlier IPs, so a character with a 10 meter per combat turn would move 4/3/3 meters per combat turn.  If that was his running rate and he wanted to add to it with a sprint test, he just added his bonus meters till he was at 4/4/4 and then continued to add more back at the first IP.

As far as a variable number of IP/action phases, we only dealt with 3 IPs. Really though, never had characters (PC or NPC) with 4 IPs, so we never had to breech those rules, but I could be onboard with giving that character extra movement at the standard 1/3 rate OR simply giving them whatever movement they had left over from the turn, short of their max move.  If they already moved their max, then they're done moving.  They'll probably go first again next turn anyway.

Honestly I don't remember how we ran the movement penalties for a running shooter, but I know that the targeting penalties (trying to hit a fast target) were based on the speed of the target, not the action type he took.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-28-14/1753:23>
A problem you get is that when someone has a high Initiative, you suddenly end up getting less movement than in another fight. If in one fight you can reach the opponent from 5m and in another you can't, you get rather iffy situations. Which is why the system FasterN8 is using is nice: It always gives you the same movement per IP. It runs into trouble when people are getting past 3 IPs, but that won't easily happen and you could design a rule for letting someone pass some of their movement rate on to their >3 IPs.

When you divy it up, you do have to compensate for the whole "Running/Sprinting entire turn" idea. Right now, once you start running, you take the penalties and bonuses for it the entire turn. That would drop out if running and walking is per IP. On the other hand, with every IP being 1 second, it's still plausible. So perhaps you could just break the "entire turn" rule. Or you could make up a different rule, since right now one person is harder to hit at 6m movement than another at 18m movement.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-01-14/0119:49>
I see nothing wrong with assigning a flat 3 movements per Combat Turn.  You're right, this would prevent some weird numbers from happening.  So there are always 3 movement phases per turn now.  Let's say this too: every Action Phase a character gets 1 Movement Action, 1 Free Action, and either 2 Simple Actions or 1 Complex Action.  They can use these in any order they wish during their Action Phase.  The Movement Action is either: Stop, Walk, Run, or Sprint, with the distances based on the existing rules, but divided by 3.  Everyone gets 3 Action Phases for the purposes of Movement in a Combat Turn.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: FasterN8 on <03-01-14/0212:16>
In an effort to keep things as simple and not deviate farther than necessary from core, I wouldn't create another action type called a "Movement Action".  Walking would simply be "no action" like it was in 4th and still is in 5th.  Running would be a Free action, just like in both editions and Sprinting is a simple action like in 4th. 

Since the sprint action adds to your total run rate per combat turn, you only need to make one of these per combat turn to change your parsed movement rate for the combat turn.  If you don't like your results, you can make another sprint test, for another simple action, but it just replaces your previous results, not adding to them.

So if your agility is 4 and you make a sprint test and only scored 1 hit on your sprint test in IP 1, your running rate would be (4x4)=16 +2 meters per combat turn for 6/6/6 meters per combat turn.   That only takes a simple action, so you still have another simple action that you use that to shoot with appropriate penalties for running, (unless you took your shot first and then started running).

In IP 2, you could just keep the 6/6/6 you already rolled in IP 1, but let's say you need a little more juice to make it to cover, so you try to run a little faster and make another sprint test and score 2 hits this time, making your run rate 16 +4 or 7/7/6 meters per combat turn.  So you run 7 meters in IP 2 and make it to cover where you take another simple action to shoot with appropriate running penalties.

(Pursuing Michaels suggestion of breaking the "entire turn" rule)

In IP 3, you sit tight and go nowhere and just decide to shoot.  Here's my question: Should you still have penalties for running in the previous IP?  I'm not sure if the running penalty should persist from the latest run action throughout the whole next IP or if declared non-movement in IP3 cancels the penalty.  I'm open to suggestions here.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-01-14/1647:10>
That all sounds reasonable and easy enough to deal with for bookkeeping.  In the RAW, which we'd be changing substantially by doing this, the penalty for running/sprinting applies to all the actions taken in that Combat Turn, so you should probably keep the penalty for that theoretical third Action Phase in your example.  What I'm curious about would be knockdowns and other movement stoppages.  Let's say that if you lose Initiative (due to electrical attacks, Interrupt Actions, etc.) then you immediately stop moving.  But how would we handle the ability to start moving again?  The lowered Initiative works great for the RAW system, but not so well for board movement.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: FasterN8 on <03-02-14/0927:04>
Are you talking about getting your initiative lowered during your turn?
Actually, I'm not sure how that works with the RAW system either.  Like if you take a simple action and then during your move, you get zapped by a tazer that lowers your initiative, would you not get your second simple action till your new (lower but still in this IP) initiative comes up again?  Or would you just let the player finish their action phase and then deal with the lowered init on the next pass?

As far as movement stoppages, I'd say that unless it's a persistent stoppage like a grapple, then it would only end their move in the current pass.  This actually makes more sense since (by RAW) the stopped character would otherwise still be able to get their full move (just later in the turn) if that had any actions remaining.  Using the segmented board movement, the stopped character would actually get robbed of some of their move for the whole turn, which seems appropriate if they were interrupted.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-02-14/1128:05>
Yeah, if you get hit by electrical attacks you immediately lose 5 Initiative.  This stacks with other attacks that lower Initiative, like suppressive fire.  It can really ruin someone's day.

The way RAW works, let's say you have 21 Initiative.  You go on 21 and you go again on 11, and finally on 1.  Somewhere between 21 and 11, you get hit with a taser that lowers your Initiative by 5.  You've already acted on 21 in the first Action Phase, so that doesn't change.  But instead of acting on 11 in the second Action Phase, you now act on 6.  And you lose your third Action Phase completely, since it's now -4.

For board movement, lowering your Initiative would have the same effect as to the number of actions you get, etc.  But do you still get to move in that third Action Phase?  I'm not really sure how to handle this.  If we are breaking this up into the following:
Walking - no action, move (Movement Rate) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Running - free action, move (Movement Rate) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Sprinting - simple action, move ((Running test hits * Movement Rate) + (Movement Rate)) / 3 meters in an Action Phase

Then the only option would be to allow the character to keep walking or running, but no other action is possible.  This would make sense with the idea of making the movement all take place over the course of three Action Phases (regardless of Initiative).

So with that in mind, and how complicated it can get, I want to propose something completely different.



MetatypeWalking rate
Human, Elf, Orc3/4 Agility (round up)
Dwarf, Troll1/2 Agility (round up)

To move requires Initiative, if you have no Initiative remaining, you can only go prone.  When walking, you move a number of meters as shown on the table above (minimum of 1).  Running requires a Free Action, and doubles your Walking Rate.  Sprinting requires a Running test, giving one additional meter of movement per hit.

And we just leave it at that.  Change the movement rates, change the frequency of movement, and then we've got a movement system for boards that shouldn't interfere with the rest of the game at all.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Michael Chandra on <03-02-14/1214:54>
I'm not sure how fair penalizing Dwarves and Trolls on Agi-based movement is. Especially for Trolls it makes zero sense. It'd be more reasonable to stick to the same-base-movement and either 1m or 2m per Sprinting hit.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: FasterN8 on <03-02-14/1615:05>
For board movement, lowering your Initiative would have the same effect as to the number of actions you get, etc.  But do you still get to move in that third Action Phase?  I'm not really sure how to handle this.  If we are breaking this up into the following:
Walking - no action, move (Movement Rate) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Running - free action, move (Movement Rate) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Sprinting - simple action, move ((Running test hits * Movement Rate) + (Movement Rate)) / 3 meters in an Action Phase

Then the only option would be to allow the character to keep walking or running, but no other action is possible.  This would make sense with the idea of making the movement all take place over the course of three Action Phases (regardless of Initiative).

That's exactly how I'd run it. Every player gets a free action to move in the 2nd and 3rd IP regardless of if they have a positive initiative score.
If I may offer some clarification to the formulas: (the Hits* movement rate part of your sprint formula could be interpreted wrong)

Walking - no action, move (Walk Rate) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Running - free action, move (Walk Rate*2) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
Sprinting - simple action, move ((Running test hits * Sprint Rate) + (Walk Rate*2 Rate)) / 3 meters in an Action Phase
(With Walk Rate = Agility *2 and Sprint Rate = 1 or 2 meters depending on Metatype)

It's worth pointing out that the Walk Rate, Run Rate and Sprint Rates here are the same (per combat turn) as RAW, so at least that much stays the same.  And you only have to do that math once (for walk and run anyway) and write it on your sheet.



MetatypeWalking rate
Human, Elf, Orc3/4 Agility (round up)
Dwarf, Troll1/2 Agility (round up)

To move requires Initiative, if you have no Initiative remaining, you can only go prone.  When walking, you move a number of meters as shown on the table above (minimum of 1).  Running requires a Free Action, and doubles your Walking Rate.  Sprinting requires a Running test, giving one additional meter of movement per hit.

And we just leave it at that.  Change the movement rates, change the frequency of movement, and then we've got a movement system for boards that shouldn't interfere with the rest of the game at all.

I could go with a fixed movement rate per Action phase (if I were a player), but if you use that you'll want to compare how that affects a characters total movement across the combat turn compared to RAW.  At 3/4 agility, a character with only 1 action is SERIOUSLY nerfed compared to RAW.  Even someone with 2 actions is still getting a glancing blow from the nerf bat since they get 2*Agility move by RAW, but only 1.5 here.  I think 2 actions should probably be your baseline comparison to RAW, allowing each character to move (1*Agility) in each action phase.  That also has the added benefit of not requiring 1/2 or 3/4 calculations to figure your move.

And I'd have to agree with Michael, that reducing Dwarves and Trolls base move hinders them from a a playability and game balance perspective.  The reduced sprint-ability seems like a fair compromise for those metatypes.

There is one more feature of this sytem that will change the balance of things.  Allocating fixed movement per action phase rather than per combat turn changes (fairly significantly) the value of initiative boosting wares and magic.  They're already pretty powerful, but with this houserule, they not only add actions, but they provide increased ability to move in the span of 3 seconds.  While that may be thematically appropriate, it changes game balance materially.  You'll have to decide for yourself how significant that change is and if it's worth altering game balance.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-02-14/1920:25>
I'm not sure how fair penalizing Dwarves and Trolls on Agi-based movement is. Especially for Trolls it makes zero sense. It'd be more reasonable to stick to the same-base-movement and either 1m or 2m per Sprinting hit.

You're right - I had mistakenly thought that Dwarves and Trolls got a lower base, but kept the same Sprint modifier.  This was backward.

So it'd be 3/4 Agility (Round up) for base movement, then +1m per hit for Dwarves/Trolls on sprint tests, and +2m per hit for everyone else.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-04-14/1211:37>
Whats prevent you from using movement as it is stated in SR5 core...?
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-04-14/1228:09>
The problem with the movement in core for board movement is that when you're playing with a board, you're handling movement on a per-Action Phase basis.  The movement in the core rules is on a per-Action Turn basis, which is not really conducive to board movement.  Personally, I find that a board is nice to have but it's not necessary.  However there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of players who likely use boards for their games.  It'd be badass if Run & Gun introduced some board movement rules, but that doesn't help people in the interim.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Zilfer on <03-04-14/1253:03>
I'm confused, I think movement was improved from 4e to 5e........ now you just 'keep track' of how far you've moved between action phases and if you "go over" the run limit form that point on you are considered running. Further if you reach the limit of your running then you have to "sprint" for any extra movement you may want.....

Trolls I'm not quite sure why they are slower.... it's like saying you can outrun a bear because it's twice our size so it must be slow. xD
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-04-14/1254:23>
Movement in the normal game improved, certainly.  However, we're talking about movement for people playing with miniatures and maps.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Zilfer on <03-04-14/1326:24>
Movement in the normal game improved, certainly.  However, we're talking about movement for people playing with miniatures and maps.

Indeed which is the boat I'm in.... Not sure where the disconnect is? I just flip over my square map to a hex map and they count out everytime they move a hex, and once they reach that 'magic' number they get the modifier.... that's why i'm particularly confused....
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-04-14/1328:05>
Can you describe your system in more detail?  How do you determine the magic number?
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Zilfer on <03-04-14/1344:49>
Can you describe your system in more detail?  How do you determine the magic number?

So I believe in the book it says agility x2, and then agility x4.

So if I have Agility 5 that's 10m before I am 'running' and 20m before I am 'sprinting'. Take in mind I am JUST getting into 5e so I might be totally wrong about numbers here. xD take it with a grain of salt but the way we played it last night was.

Air port! Guys pull guns ready to shoot! Initiative!

First up some stand and shoot, while another party member moves towards a far away one to close the distance a bit so they take less of a penalty . Say it is 4m to move up to the 'short range -1' area. So that person records his movement for future action phases. He is not considered running yet so no modifiers.

Next Action Phase he's roarin and ready to go because the mage mind controlled 3 guys by mob control but took 6 stun in Drain and someone lit him up doing 10 Stun to knock him completely out! Guy is ready to get up in said man's face for a no penalty.

He moves 10m this turn making a total of 14m move in this Combat turn. He now has the running modifier of -2 to shoot, and +2 to defense rolls, however he 'lost' the -1 from the distance so he's still at -1 for THIS turn.

His next action phase comes up and he killed the enemy with his last action phase. So now he's going to run and help his friends who are fighting the other way. He has 4m left of movement left so he moves that and realizes he's at 20m his max now and cannot move any further without taking a complex action to run. He decides it's more important getting over there than taking a long distance shot with a large penalty and since he hadn't stopped firing his penalty from recoil is starting to add up. He decides to "Sprint" for extra meters....


Does that sound right? Am I doing something wrong there? It seemed to work fine... considering 1m = about 3 feet is it? or 2.5? Something like that they can actually cover quiet a considerable amount of distance in a short time.

I'm still not sure with the recoil reset if you have to "take an action" to reset recoil or just not "shoot for an action phase" to reset it.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-04-14/1348:02>
Ah, so you're applying the penalties on turns after the Running or Sprinting has started.  That makes sense.  Hmm...  maybe we've been over complicating things.  :P
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Zilfer on <03-04-14/1351:40>
Ah, so you're applying the penalties on turns after the Running or Sprinting has started.  That makes sense.  Hmm...  maybe we've been over complicating things.  :P

Yeah I don't know that's just how I read it and I was like cool! It's simple now.

If I had 5 Agility I basically get 9m 'for free' if I want to move further than that in my first action phase then I start out "running" and I'm considered running until the next combat turn where it 'resets'.

So if I move 9m I'm walking. I move any more that combat turn then i'm "running". It's a little odd to think about for example if I move 9m and then stop don't move an action phase, then last phase I need to move to an a jointing cover now I'm "running.' Even if it's just 1m away. xD
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: FasterN8 on <03-04-14/2017:30>
Well part of my issue was with the RAW system allowing combatants to use a ridiculous amount of their movement (all of it) before someone just slightly behind them even got to shoot.  As has been discussed ad nauseum in older threads, it's like teleportation.  There's nothing stopping a character from using their full run rate in IP#1.

Now if you're trying to make melee combat a larger part of your game, then the RAW system certainly enables those characters to engage more easily without getting shot.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/0017:27>
That's true, N8 but if someone uses a Sprint action and gets a bunch of hits and then uses all their movement in Action Phase 1, they can't move at all afterward.  Which can be a huge disadvantage, tactically as your opponents see you zip past and then reposition to get an angle on you.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1233:52>
The problem with the movement in core for board movement is that when you're playing with a board, you're handling movement on a per-Action Phase basis.  The movement in the core rules is on a per-Action Turn basis...
Wait... what?
In SR5 movement happens during your action phase.
It is not spread out over the initiative pass or combat turn.
You can move up to agility x4 meters in a single action phase if you want (and have not moved yet and have a free action to spare)

(but then you would need to take a complex sprint test if you want to move any further until the end of the combat turn).


(SR5 is the most melee -and gyromount- friendly edition)


So again; what prevent you from using movement as it is stated in SR5 core...?
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1241:45>
Wait... what?
In SR5 movement happens during your action phase.
It is not spread out over the initiative pass or combat turn.
You can move up to agility x4 meters in a single action phase if you want (and have not moved yet and have a free action to spare)
(but then you would need to take a complex sprint test if you want to move any further until the end of the combat turn).

So again; what prevent you from using movement as it is stated in SR5 core...?

I don't know why I'm having to recap the last 6 or 7 posts, but here goes......

The movement for most board-based games is done each action phase.  Basically, saying that you can move X squares or hexes per action phase.  That's traditional.  In SR, they say that you can move up to X squares or hexes over the course of an entire Combat Turn.  That's a whole different animal.  We were trying to find a good system of converting the X squares or hexes per Combat Turn into X squares or hexes per Action Phase.

After reviewing things with Zilfer, it's become apparent that the current rules can work just fine for board-based movement.  But after talking with FasterN8, it's apparent that there are still some concerns with everyone moving a LOT during the first Action Phase, and then not at all afterward.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1256:05>
I still don't get it.

In earlier editions your movement was spread out over the entire combat turn.

In SR5 it happens instantly, when the player decide to move, during the player's action phase.
- just like it would in a board game.

Yes, you can burn all your movement in your first action phase - but then you would have no movement left and you still have to spend your free actions on "running" for the remaining of the combat turn (but you would also get -2 dice on your ranged attacks unless maybe if you have a gyromount, get +2 dice on all defense tests and everyone get -2 dice to attack you with ranged attacks until it is your turn to move again in the next combat turn).

If you want to move after you already burned all your movement you would also need to spend a complex action to take a sprint test to move a few meters during an action phase later in the combat turn (but ranged attack against a sprinting character get another -2 dice).

This is an edge case.

A more "normal" case would be that your player move maybe 5-6 meters (considered walking) in the first action phase and -depending on agility- a few more meters in his second combat turn. A melee character -or a ranged character with a gyromount- would probably want to always "run" (agility x 2 meters or more) from his first action phase and onward because of the defensive bonuses (and really no cons).

Most people have two IPs. Really wired people have more.
If you average out how much you can move per IP then wired people would move slower ;)
(it worked in SR2 since back then wired people got multiple action phases -and oppertunities to move- before everyone else. In SR5 everyone move in the first IP even if they are very slow... wired people in SR5 get to act a few times after everyone already done their movements)

I simply don't see why you should not just stick to RAW. Shrug.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1301:39>
I don't see in the rules where it happens instantly.  The fact that your movement penalty applies across all of your Action Phases supports that the movement happens over the whole Combat Turn.

Quote from: Core Rulebook, page 161, 162
A character’s movement for an entire Combat Turn (meaning total movement for all Initiative Passes, not for each Initiative Pass) is based on their Run rate, which is determined by metatype. Walk rate determines the farthest a character can move during a Combat Turn before they are considered to be Running.

...

The Movement Rates (Walk and Run) for each metatype are noted on the Movement Table. This is the distance the character can move during their Combat Turn. As soon as the character exceeds their Walk rate, they are considered Running until the end of the Combat Turn and incur any penalties or benefits of running. Running characters must use a Free Action in each Initiative Pass they are considered running.

Since all of these descriptions talk about the movement taking place over the whole Combat Turn, I really don't see where you're coming from saying that the movement happens instantly.  You're saying that if a human with a 3 Agility and 2 hits on a Sprinting test wants to, they can move 16 meters in a split-second (a single Action Phase)?  That's ludicrous speed.

(http://maxdemarzidotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/spaceballs_ludicrous_speed.jpg)
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1303:59>
You're saying that if a human with a 3 Agility and 2 hits on a Sprinting test wants to, they can move 16 meters in a split-second (a single Action Phase)
Yes.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1305:57>
That is crunch. Melee can charge a target 12 meters on his first action phase; but fluff wise he is still moving during the entire combat turn.
Game mechanic wise this mean that everyone with 3 agility can move the distance during your first action phase;
no matter if you only have one IP or four IPs during the combat turn.

If you average out the 12 meters per IP then very wired people would not be able to move the full distance
- but a very slow person would. That would just be strange..... ;)

And if you average movement over the max number of IPs during the combat turn then you have situations where you move faster per action phase in a combat with only slow people and slower per IP in combat with wired people in it. That is also really... strange.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1307:58>
(that is crunch. melee can charge a target 12 meters away on his first combat turn; but fluff wise he is still moving during the entire combat turn).

The problem is that board-based movement is about removing some of the fluff and focusing on crunch.

FYI, the fastest human footspeed ever recorded was 44.72 km/h, which equates to about 7m per second.  A Combat Turn is 3 seconds, so we'll say 21 meters per Combat Turn.  Augmentations and such should increase that, of course, but we're talking about a human with 3 Agility, which is average.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1312:02>
I updated my post while you were typing.

an agility 3 character can move 4 meters per second in full combat gear and still fire a rifle
...or 5.3 meters per second if sprinting in full combat gear

an action phase is 3 seconds if you only have 1 IP (which average people have)


Sounds about right to me?
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1327:11>
If you want a more realistic system where fast people move fast then you should go back to how initiative score was handled during SR2; where wired people always act first, often more than once, and then non-wired people move... at the end of the combat turn - problem is that having slow reflexes in such system is very punishing.

Balance and game mechanic wise SR5 have a very elegant solution.
Everyone get to act in the first IP, even if you are very very slow or if you spend initiative score on interrupt actions (as long as you have some initiative left that is). All movement can be used up in the first IP... but fast people have the option to split up the movement over several IPs (and with that delay the penalties until later in the combat turn). Fast players get to act multiple times at the end of the combat turn (or take multiple interrupt actions and still get to act).

It is an elegant and balanced game mechanic. You just need to ignore some of the strange side effects (in this case teleporting-like movement).
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1352:08>
If you average out the 12 meters per IP then very wired people would not be able to move the full distance
- but a very slow person would. That would just be strange..... ;)

And if you average movement over the max number of IPs during the combat turn then you have situations where you move faster per action phase in a combat with only slow people and slower per IP in combat with wired people in it. That is also really... strange.

These are the problems that we were trying to address.

If you want a more realistic system where fast people move fast then you should go back to how initiative score was handled during SR2; where wired people always act first, often more than once, and then non-wired people move... at the end of the combat turn - problem is that having slow reflexes in such system is very punishing.

True, and I hated that system.  We're not necessarily looking for realistic in that sense.  We're trying to focus on board-based movement rules.

It is an elegant and balanced game mechanic. You just need to ignore some of the strange side effects (in this case teleporting-like movement).

The problem is that the ultrafast movement doesn't translate too well to a board.  We need to focus on the board-based movement.  That's the whole purpose of this thread.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Xenon on <03-05-14/1357:21>
everyone with agility 3. no matter how wired they are or if they are not wired at all. get to move their 12 meters at the first IP.

moving 12 meters in your first IP when you only have one IP is no issue. Correct?
Well, moving 12 meters in your first IP when someone else have more than one IP shoud not be an issue, either. Shrug.

...and if you extend that...
- if you are wired and have faster reflexes then you should be able to move 12 meters in your first IP as everyone else as well.

more IPs just mean you can choose to move slower at the first IP and spend the rest of your 12 later in the same combat phase....

core actually translates well to a board game.
Title: Re: House Rule: Board Movement
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1426:58>
First, I don't understand the sense of animosity that there seems to be with me trying to help someone else out with making a house rule.  After all, I've stated in the past that in my games we don't use board rules.  I'm trying to help Faster N8 with his board rules.

Okay, I'll try to break this down so that I understand where you're coming from here.  Here's what I was suggesting:
Roll initiative, determine the maximum number of Action Phases that everyone will get.  Take your base walking rate and divide by the max Action Phases.  Then everyone moves on every Action Phase (even if they don't have Initiative) a number of tiles equal to that movement.  Anything faster changes it to running for the Action Phase.  Once the max is taken up, even if there are Action Phases left, you have to use sprinting to continue moving.

I don't really like that system, but it's the closest I can think of to a board movement system using the existing rules.

What Zilfer suggested:
Each tile is one meter (or whatever, based on scale).  A player may move up to their walking rate without penalty in any Action Phase in which they have Initiative.  Any movement beyond that rate is considered running, and once that's depleted the movement requires sprinting.  This is essentially what the book states.

The problem:
Average characters without augmentations can move unrealistically fast when they can cross huge distances in one Action Phase.  People who should be slower appear to be faster.  Movement is not fluidly split between all of the characters.

However, at this point I'm done trying to fix someone else's problem.  As I said, it doesn't matter to me.  But it matters to some people, and those people will just have to figure it out on their own.  This isn't worth the stress and frustration of having to defend my suggestions or figuring out the math and such.  Congrats Xenon, you've just killed the thread.  :)