Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: psycho835 on <03-07-14/1359:37>
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By raw, is it possible or not? And if not, would you house rule it?
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It's not possible, both Fading and Drain indicate the only way they heal is through natural healing. I would not houserule a change, the risk of abuse is too high.
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What kind of healing is first aid/medicine?
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What kind of healing is first aid/medicine?
Assisted healing. You're speeding up the natural process.
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Wait, I thought that only magical healing is impossible in case of drain/fading.
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Well with Drain it specifically calls out no medkits, meaning no first aid.
But it kinda opens a number of different questions. Would bioware that increased healing ability work? Would the qualities? What about adept powers?
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Well with Drain it specifically calls out no medkits, meaning no first aid.
But it kinda opens a number of different questions. Would bioware that increased healing ability work? Would the qualities? What about adept powers?
Yes to Bioware, and Qualities. You paid essence or karma to make them a natural part of your "person" so they work. Unless they say they don't (there are a few out there that explicitly say if they don't count for a specific test).
adept powers get tricky. Unless the power says it augments "natural healing", it probably doesn't count.
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Drek, must have missed the part about medkits. Here's what I get for skimming. All right, thanks everyone.
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I suppose you could use medicine, instead of first aid. And thereby a specialization under said skill.
Medicine doesnt heal any damage at all, but it does add its successes to your natural healing dice pool.
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I suppose you could use medicine, instead of first aid. And thereby a specialization under said skill.
Medicine doesnt heal any damage at all, but it does add its successes to your natural healing dice pool.
yep , it seems to be the only way to "boost" a drain/fade(?) damage recovery. the down side is it is not "instant" so battlefield usage is a no go.... But after the run, it is worth the karma, ESP if heat is on you.
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Sooo... Drain/fading specialization on medicine?
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Sooo... Drain/fading specialization on medicine?
I wouldn't allow it, but mostly because I can't wrap my head around the idea of how drain or fading actually physically affects someone. If I had a better understanding of the physical effects, I might be more inclined to allow it. As it is right now, I just see drain and fading damage as something that medicine can't fix because there isn't necessarily something that needs fixing.
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IF your GM allows medicine to be used then a specialization in "extended care" or "magical health" (both of which are default specializations available) should work.
This is a serious "talk to you GM question" though as there is lots of room for interpretation.
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So does that mean that stim patches don't help either?
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Sooo... Drain/fading specialization on medicine?
I wouldn't allow it, but mostly because I can't wrap my head around the idea of how drain or fading actually physically affects someone. If I had a better understanding of the physical effects, I might be more inclined to allow it. As it is right now, I just see drain and fading damage as something that medicine can't fix because there isn't necessarily something that needs fixing.
Worth noting: There were specializations in Augmentation for Traditional Medicine or Magical Healing, which negated the normal penalty for using Medicine on Awakened and technomancers.
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So does that mean that stim patches don't help either?
not anymore it would seem.
while the "fist full of stim patches" was the way mages ran back in 1 to 3e, from 4e on Stim patches lost their "magical goodness".
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Drek. Looks like implants are the only technology-based way to reduce/ignore drain/fading damage. That sucks.
...But on the other hand, I wanted to make a combat cybermage for a while now.
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Drek. Looks like implants are the only technology-based way to reduce/ignore drain/fading damage. That sucks.
...But on the other hand, I wanted to make a combat cybermage for a while now.
be aware, every time I have seen this attempted, the player was most dis-satisfied with the result.
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What if I only use betaware, or qualities such a Type-O system?
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What if I only use betaware, or qualities such a Type-O system?
it's the essence loss = magic loss thing.
to get the cyber/bio he wanted just cost so much essence, his magic was less effective then he wanted, causing a constant spiral....
To get the effect out of his spells, he had to over cast more and more, thus taking more physical damage, thus needing more attention or cyber to offset, thus lowering his magic, thus taking more physical drain, thus needing more cyber to offset, thus taking more cyber...... and around it went.
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A higher grade would help with the essence loss.... but then it is a case of can you afford it? Can you find it? Can you get someone to install it?
and those are questions for your GM to answer. At my table Detaware is a soul selling endeavour. Other tables, it a walk down to the walk in clinic after stopping off at Kong-mart to pick up the cyber!
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Hmm... The stuff useful for counteracting drain is mostly bioware. I think Type-O system + initiation should do the trick. It's not like I want tier 3 wired reflexes or anything equally invasive.
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Hmm... The stuff useful for counteracting drain is mostly bioware. I think Type-O system + initiation should do the trick. It's not like I want tier 3 wired reflexes or anything equally invasive.
well, at the very least it's an exercise in seeing what does and doesn't work for you... and besides, it may be less of an issue for you then it was for him just due to your play styles.
But, like I said, most people are unhappy. Let me know if you come up with something that works for you!
edit: Also, "type-O system" is not yet in 5e, so you will have to talk to GM about that one....
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Will do.
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What is Magical Health specialization on the Medicine skill anyway...?
It let you ignore the awakened or emerged negative dice pool modifier on your extended medicine test...?
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Good question. Guys?
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I wouldn't allow it, but mostly because I can't wrap my head around the idea of how drain or fading actually physically affects someone. If I had a better understanding of the physical effects, I might be more inclined to allow it. As it is right now, I just see drain and fading damage as something that medicine can't fix because there isn't necessarily something that needs fixing.
The awakened community understands what Drain is; it's strain on the body (though not anywhere in particular on it) caused by the mana being channeled through it. Stun damage is probably fatigue and exhaustion, while Physical is likely muscle deterioration and things like internal ulcers-- Just generally your cells breaking down because they start dieing. And seeing as having astral patrols leaving their bodies in a hospital so they can more safely use magic is an established practice, I'm sure there's some precedent for doing specific things just to help speed up someone's recovery from drain.
Fading though... People have no idea, since the Resonance isn't accepted as an "energy" like mana and so can't be studied as easily. Among other reasons. It's not just "newer" than mana, but even the people who use it can't really come up with a single understanding of what it might be, and some of them don't even acknowledge that it's actually paranormal-- See the TM's who think they can just "write code on the fly real fast" or other especially non-mystic outlooks.
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What is Magical Health specialization on the Medicine skill anyway...?
It let you ignore the awakened or emerged negative dice pool modifier on your extended medicine test...?
Well, um... yea <cough>:
As a specialization, you basically get a +2 dice to the test. Thus it offsets the negative modifier for treating an awakened (and paying attention to their nature)..
Note: It has be argued that the care giver could choose to "ignore" the awakened nature of the character to remove the negative modifier as well..... But that opens a host of other issues: (like "what level of damage VS improper care causes magic loss?") So I generally disallow this avenue of thought out of our table's "Anti-headache Rule".
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What is Magical Health specialization on the Medicine skill anyway...?
It let you ignore the awakened or emerged negative dice pool modifier on your extended medicine test...?
Well, um... yea <cough>:
As a specialization, you basically get a +2 dice to the test. Thus it offsets the negative modifier for treating an awakened (and paying attention to their nature)..
but in that case... why not just take extended care...?
same thing, but give you a +2 bonus on all your extended tests
- including, but not limited to, extended tests on awakened and emerged?
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The issue here is that there is no comprehensive list of all specializations for all skills. Each GM is going to rule things slightly differently at their table, with some GMs being comfortable with very generalized specializations, and others requiring very specific specializations. Traditional Medicine, for example, means different things to different people. I'm sure that as a community, we could probably come up with a list of specializations that are generally accepted at most of our tables, but there will always be edge cases. I think we'll get more details once we see a book about medicine, augmentations, etc. Until then, we could try to come up with something ourselves.
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What do you mean?
Medicine specializations are:
Cosmetic Surgery, Extended Care, Implant Surgery, Magical Health, Organ Culture and Trauma Surgery.
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What do you mean?
Medicine specializations are:
Cosmetic Surgery, Extended Care, Implant Surgery, Magical Health, Organ Culture and Trauma Surgery.
Yes, but these are hardly the be-all end-all of the list. One could reasonably talk about preventative medicine, dietary medicine, etc.
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...these are hardly the be-all end-all of the list...
They aren't?
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What is Magical Health specialization on the Medicine skill anyway...?
It let you ignore the awakened or emerged negative dice pool modifier on your extended medicine test...?
Well, um... yea <cough>:
As a specialization, you basically get a +2 dice to the test. Thus it offsets the negative modifier for treating an awakened (and paying attention to their nature)..
Note: It has be argued that the care giver could choose to "ignore" the awakened nature of the character to remove the negative modifier as well..... But that opens a host of other issues: (like "what level of damage VS improper care causes magic loss?") So I generally disallow this avenue of thought out of our table's "Anti-headache Rule".
What negative modifier for the nature of the awakened?
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What is Magical Health specialization on the Medicine skill anyway...?
It let you ignore the awakened or emerged negative dice pool modifier on your extended medicine test...?
Well, um... yea <cough>:
As a specialization, you basically get a +2 dice to the test. Thus it offsets the negative modifier for treating an awakened (and paying attention to their nature)..
Note: It has be argued that the care giver could choose to "ignore" the awakened nature of the character to remove the negative modifier as well..... But that opens a host of other issues: (like "what level of damage VS improper care causes magic loss?") So I generally disallow this avenue of thought out of our table's "Anti-headache Rule".
What negative modifier for the nature of the awakened?
Page 208 main book, Modifier to Healing table, Patient is Awakened or Emerged –2
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...these are hardly the be-all end-all of the list...
They aren't?
Nope, the are the suggested specializations, but by no means the end of the list. you could in fact have a specialization Computer programming 4 (Basic A+2). Now good luck finding anything programmed in Basic A in 2075, but you could have it!
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/me blinks. I do not understand the point of the negative modifier. Do they have different organs?
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Their systems are different enough that certain medical techniques can hamper their magical abilities. In SR3 and before, treating them without the modifier caused a magic loss test I believe. They did away with that level of magic loss in SR4 but kept the penalty. Going with the softer damage system now, I would probably force a test against temporary lost magic if they were treated without penalty. Make the loss for a number of hours equal to the boxes healed.
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/me blinks. I do not understand the point of the negative modifier. Do they have different organs?
It's an old throwback to possibly losing Magic to heavy damage, so a doctor working on the Awakened or Emerged has to be more delicate and less invasive or risk upsetting the body/spirit/mind balance causing potential loss of Magic/Resonance.
SR3 had a good explanation of the effect here:
Awakened characters have it rough when they get hurt. Doctors and medics have a harder time treating them because they cannot use their high-tech gear and high-powered medicines without risking damage to the character’s Magic Rating. When an Awakened character suffers a Deadly wound or is treated without the +2 modifier for an Awakened character (see First Aid Table ), the character risks a loss of magic. The character’s player rolls 2D6. If the result is less than or equal to the magician’s current Magic Rating, that character perma- nently loses 1 point of magic . If the Awakened character is being treated for a Deadly wound and the +2 modifier is not applied, roll 2D6 twice for magic loss (see p.160).
An Awakened character who requires a replacement limb or organ must have it cloned from the original tissue or risk similar magic loss. Any other DNA pattern, even that of anoth- er Awakened, decreases the character’s power-handling capability and thereby automatically reduces the character’s Magic Rating by 1. This reduction can be temporary; for example, a non-cyber substitute part can later be replaced with a limb or organ cloned from the character’s own tissue. Doing so restores the lost magic points; however, organ implants require major invasive surgery, and may pose the risk of even greater magic loss.
Think of it as Sensitive System Lite.
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Nope, the are the suggested specializations...
I don't find any reference that specializations in the book just act as examples or suggestions.
Sure, some specializations have suggestions (like Hardware -Commlinks, -Cyberdecks, -Smartguns etc.).
But most have a definite list (like Medicine -Cosmetic Surgery, -Extended Care, -Implant Surgery, -Magical Health, -Organ Culture, -Trauma Surgery).
Fleshing out your character with knowledge about preventative medicine, dietary medicine and Basic A Programming would be separate [in this case Academic or Professional] Knowledge skills.
Sure - you can also invent new specializations to active skills (or even invent new active skills, change the behavior or scope of existing skills and make up your own skill groups),
...but that would require GM Approval / GM House Ruling; wouldn't it....?
I feel like I am out on thin ice here -it sound as if i am- but that is part why i am asking;
i might simply have missed the reference that make listed skills and listed specializations into just suggestions...
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It never comes out and says it, but it is heavily implied when the book mentions the player having the freedom to choose what their narrow focus for a skill. In addition, there are references to specializations that aren't on the list. For example, p. 89: "if you have the Blades skill, you may specialize
in an axe or survival knife." A quick check of the Blades skill on p. 130 will show that there is no Survival Knife specialization listed. Another example would be the Hack on the Fly specialization in hacking that the Decker archetype has, but is not present on p.145.
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Specializations have never been treated as a definite list, Xenon, and absent specific text on the subject it makes little sense to assume this has changed.
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Nope, the are the suggested specializations...
I don't find any reference that specializations in the book just act as examples or suggestions.
Sure, some specializations have suggestions (like Hardware -Commlinks, -Cyberdecks, -Smartguns etc.).
But most have a definite list (like Medicine -Cosmetic Surgery, -Extended Care, -Implant Surgery, -Magical Health, -Organ Culture, -Trauma Surgery).
Fleshing out your character with knowledge about preventative medicine, dietary medicine and Basic A Programming would be separate [in this case Academic or Professional] Knowledge skills.
Sure - you can also invent new specializations to active skills (or even invent new active skills, change the behavior or scope of existing skills and make up your own skill groups),
...but that would require GM Approval / GM House Ruling; wouldn't it....?
I feel like I am out on thin ice here -it sound as if i am- but that is part why i am asking;
i might simply have missed the reference that make listed skills and listed specializations into just suggestions...
After reading the entire sections several times, I can see how you can feel and see it that way. Me personally. I ask myself "What's the harm?"
as you say:
"But most have a definite list (like Medicine -Cosmetic Surgery, -Extended Care, -Implant Surgery, -Magical Health, -Organ Culture, -Trauma Surgery)."
I say:
Where's Mircobiology? Biochemistry? Both of those are actively used skills? Where is Heart Surgery? The list of specializations is just too great.
Also, some of their skills are very (as they admit) broad in description. For example, they make "Industrial Mechanic" a skill, but under that, they list a lot of "specializations" that are basically requirements for the actual job title. (and I am personally, essentially a specialist in that skill-trade).
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Fair enough I guess... :)
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While it is not a definitive list anything not on the list would need GM approval to make sure if fell in line with the range of other specializations.
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While it is not a definitive list anything not on the list would need GM approval to make sure if fell in line with the range of other specializations.
Yeah. No "Unarmed (Punching)" specialties. Unless your GM is going to somehow force your character to kick people half the time...
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While it is not a definitive list anything not on the list would need GM approval to make sure if fell in line with the range of other specializations.
Yeah. No "Unarmed (Punching)" specialties. Unless your GM is going to somehow force your character to kick people half the time...
I could make that work; you don't want me to have to make that work, because what I'd do is enforce those occasions where punching is not the wisest choice of technique (faces, for example, are better attacked with the heel of the palm).
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I don't know. Would you punch your opponent in the foot?
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I guess it would suck to have a punching specialty if you'd been disarmed.
That said, I wouldn't have any more issue with it than someone with the Semi-automatics pistol specialty. 95% of the time you can make sure to be using your specialty. That five percent when you wake up cuffed in the back of a KE cruiser, things might be bit rough.
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I guess it would suck to have a punching specialty if you'd been disarmed.
Groan... :P
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I guess it would suck to have a punching specialty if you'd been disarmed.
That said, I wouldn't have any more issue with it than someone with the Semi-automatics pistol specialty. 95% of the time you can make sure to be using your specialty. That five percent when you wake up cuffed in the back of a KE cruiser, things might be bit rough.
I think a specific Martial Art specialty would make more sense, though - again, most of the time what you'd do would fit it, but there'd be some cases where it wouldn't (it especially helps if you decide to do your research and figure out what would and wouldn't fit).
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While it is not a definitive list anything not on the list would need GM approval to make sure if fell in line with the range of other specializations.
Yeah. No "Unarmed (Punching)" specialties. Unless your GM is going to somehow force your character to kick people half the time...
The missions specialties are striking, subdual, defense. Punching is a more limited version of striking.
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I guess it would suck to have a punching specialty if you'd been disarmed.
That said, I wouldn't have any more issue with it than someone with the Semi-automatics pistol specialty. 95% of the time you can make sure to be using your specialty. That five percent when you wake up cuffed in the back of a KE cruiser, things might be bit rough.
I think a specific Martial Art specialty would make more sense, though - again, most of the time what you'd do would fit it, but there'd be some cases where it wouldn't (it especially helps if you decide to do your research and figure out what would and wouldn't fit).
Not a fan of martial arts as a specialty. Its too easy to get a martial art that covers all of your unarmed combat needs. Plenty of martial arts are strong in striking, subdual and defense. .Its even worse than the semi-auto specialty of pistols for covering far too much ground.
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I guess it would suck to have a punching specialty if you'd been disarmed.
That said, I wouldn't have any more issue with it than someone with the Semi-automatics pistol specialty. 95% of the time you can make sure to be using your specialty. That five percent when you wake up cuffed in the back of a KE cruiser, things might be bit rough.
I think a specific Martial Art specialty would make more sense, though - again, most of the time what you'd do would fit it, but there'd be some cases where it wouldn't (it especially helps if you decide to do your research and figure out what would and wouldn't fit).
Not a fan of martial arts as a specialty. Its too easy to get a martial art that covers all of your unarmed combat needs. Plenty of martial arts are strong in striking, subdual and defense. .Its even worse than the semi-auto specialty of pistols for covering far too much ground.
Oh, your areas of not getting the specialization are certainly going to be a little less clear - you might get it for some defense situations and not for others, for example. But if you do a bit of looking into it, I don't know that I'd say anything really covers all situations.
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Sure, the problem with martial art specialties is it requires too much GM intervention. Your specialty doesn't apply here because your opponent has the perfect position on you for your style, or you can only pull off a leg sweet from your position and you don;t get a specialty bonus for that. after all only Cobra Kai has mastered sweeping the leg.. This kind of limitation works when the game is more martial art focused and people might be analyzing your style to target its weaknesses. outside of that its just a pain in the ass.
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Sure, the problem with martial art specialties is it requires too much GM intervention. Your specialty doesn't apply here because your opponent has the perfect position on you for your style, or you can only pull off a leg sweet from your position and you don;t get a specialty bonus for that. after all only Cobra Kai has mastered sweeping the leg.. This kind of limitation works when the game is more martial art focused and people might be analyzing your style to target its weaknesses. outside of that its just a pain in the ass.
Admittedly, I'd enjoy running a game that way for a player that found it similarly interesting, but I might be alone in that.