Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Leevizer on <03-11-14/0940:49>
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I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this subject. The stats are awesome and your own strength doesn't change the damage you deal, making it a pretty good melee weapon for nearly anyone. It is illegal but available at chargen and somewhat easily concealable whilst not in use. The misfire does seem to be a bad thing, but are glitches really that common or bad, and you can use Edge to counter glitches, right?
So, why would I choose any other weapon over a monofilament whip? I think that only trolls get to deal more damage with any other weapon and even they won't have as much armour penetration in melee?
I was thinking of building my human street samurai with one obvious cyberarm with Strength 8 meaning a 10 P hitting cyberblade and 10 P fists with aluminum bone lacing but without the penetration. But having a fingertip compartment with a monofilament whip just seems to be better in most situations. Obviously having the unarmed combat skill would be good if she would ever be unarmed, but seeing as the weapon would be inside her arm I doubt it'd be a problem? And she is highly illegal as it is so adding a whip wouldn't hurt that much.
So please give me your thoughts on the matter!
EDIT: And her main focus isn't melee, but I'm thinking that some melee would be good to have.
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The only problem that I see with it is that it requires the Exotic Melee Weapon: Monofilament Whip skill to use. Otherwise, this thing is awesome indeed.
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Always thought the wireless bonus for this was wrong.
It should be, Wireless Bonus: Now you just have a handle. ;)
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Yet another mono-filament whip thread!
It's fine, though.
The main problem is that the rules basically instruct your GM to make glitches as much of a problem for you as your enemies. This weapon is also forbidden, so it's likely to get you into trouble if found.
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Pros:
-Very good damage/AP
-A melee weapon that doesn't rely on Strength at all, good for a high Agility/low Strength character
-Concealable: monofilament whip + fingertip compartment is a classic
Cons:
-Requires the Exotic Weapon skill, which can be a major drain on skill points at creation.
-Illegal, so not appropriate for all situations.
-So dang deadly that you might attract undue attention, in the same way that busting out a grenade launcher in a knife fight would.
-Glitches will MESS. YOU. UP. (I'm considering making a monofilament whip character with only 1 Edge named "Tempts Fate")
-Other runners will snicker behind your back for embracing the cliche.
It's an iconic weapon, it's supposed to be good, and if you build a character around it the monowhip is definitely scary. But it's not as deadly as an assault rifle, not as pragmatic as a pistol, and a jacked-up troll adept or ork street samurai or what-have-you can probably do more damage with a combat knife. It's a good weapon, but by no means the end-all.
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-Glitches will MESS. YOU. UP. (I'm considering making a monofilament whip character with only 1 Edge named "Tempts Fate")
Take the Bad Luck negative quality, and you'll be really tempting fate.
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Monofilament whips are awesome for killing and terrorizing. Their intimidation factor is off the charts. The downsides, from the standpoint of gameplay mechanics, are:
1) Use of the Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip) skill. This means that you can't use the same skill for any other weapon, like you can for Blades and Clubs.
2) Cannot take a specialization on an Exotic Melee Weapon skill, so there are two dice you will never have.
3) No non-lethal option, unless you manage to subdue the opponent through abject fear.
And some fluff reasons:
4) You might put yourself on top of the "geek the [target] first" list.
5) None of your friends or loved ones will ever get closer than 2 meters for the rest of your life.
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-Glitches will MESS. YOU. UP. (I'm considering making a monofilament whip character with only 1 Edge named "Tempts Fate")
Take the Bad Luck negative quality, and you'll be really tempting fate.
Also R4 Gremlins.
I'd just be interested to see how long the character would survive.
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SR5 Machine Spirit using Gremlins is kinda interesting as well
(but that only work if your mono-whip is wireless ON i guess)
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Don't forget that it's a whip - if you're ever in enclosed spaces, you can't effectively use it and are more likely to cut off your own fingers and toes than hit the enemy. It's fine when you're outdoors away from the trees and streetlamps...but it's not a good CQC weapon because of needing to be able to maneuver to keep from slicing yourself up while also having momentum so you can quickly snap it at an enemy. I would also imagine a character using a monowhip would quickly gain notoriety, which would hamper the jobs (s)he would be offered.
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Don't forget that it's a whip - if you're ever in enclosed spaces, you can't effectively use it and are more likely to cut off your own fingers and toes than hit the enemy. It's fine when you're outdoors away from the trees and streetlamps...but it's not a good CQC weapon because of needing to be able to maneuver to keep from slicing yourself up while also having momentum so you can quickly snap it at an enemy. I would also imagine a character using a monowhip would quickly gain notoriety, which would hamper the jobs (s)he would be offered.
I have allowed it to be used a garrote in close quarters with no reach, rather than its normal reach, and a 3 die circumstantial penalty.
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I don't take high rankings in any melee skill for the same reason I wouldn't take one of these;
To use it effectively as a weapon, you have to be very close to someone. That person in this world is likely to have a gun and won't particularly want to let you hit him, preferring to shoot you as you move into melee range instead.
To that end, I'd rather be better with guns and take a stun batons or something as a melee option if shit hits the fan. Stun or physical doesn't really matter when you just need someone out of the fight, and a stun baton isn't going to slice through my leg on a super glitch
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I could see issues with confined spaces and (non-computer-aided) monofilament wires flying around, when directed by full arm motions. Fingertip compartments, wireless bonuses, and retractable wires lend themselves to a different style of fighting, though.
(http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CAT27700_Black-Market-Cards_Monofilament-Whip1.jpg)
From the image, it looks more like the monofilament isn't the full length of the whip, which afaik is an interesting change.
On the topic of range, an almost invisible fingertip weapon you can flick at someone that cuts like a hot knife through butter makes for a great surprise and assassination tool. If they hadn't clarified TMs and chargen essence loss, I'd put money on saying that Data Trails would make the lucky human TM monowhip user a viable option.
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That picture goes against the size that's implied in the books though. Since apparently the entire thing can fit inside a fingertip compartment. Plus a few other descriptions of it. Meh, no big deal.
Can you use a monofilament whip to parry? I'm not entirely clear on the rules for that. If you can't, that'd be another downside to using the weapon.
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Can you use a monofilament whip to parry? I'm not entirely clear on the rules for that. If you can't, that'd be another downside to using the weapon.
The rules don't forbid it. I admit it seems silly, but the weapon has such serious limitations already I wouldn't quibble.
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I don't think I would allow it to parry. Unless by parry you mean destroying the other dude's weapon with relative ease.
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Don't forget that it's a whip - if you're ever in enclosed spaces, you can't effectively use it and are more likely to cut off your own fingers and toes than hit the enemy. It's fine when you're outdoors away from the trees and streetlamps...but it's not a good CQC weapon because of needing to be able to maneuver to keep from slicing yourself up while also having momentum so you can quickly snap it at an enemy. I would also imagine a character using a monowhip would quickly gain notoriety, which would hamper the jobs (s)he would be offered.
You mean things I'll slice through anyways?
I also don't think you've seen a real whipmaster in action in closed space. Sure, trying to use it in a coffin sized space would be impossible, as would most weapons. But there is quite a bit of room indoors by maneuvering down the length of a hall and such.
Heck it isn't any more impossible to use a whip in an enclosed space as it is to use a katana or sword.
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That picture goes against the size that's implied in the books though. Since apparently the entire thing can fit inside a fingertip compartment. Plus a few other descriptions of it. Meh, no big deal.
I think it's accurate to any standard non-throwback monowhip. The type that can downgrade glitches. Whether that's the same whip as the one you can place in a fingertip is another question.
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That picture goes against the size that's implied in the books though. Since apparently the entire thing can fit inside a fingertip compartment. Plus a few other descriptions of it. Meh, no big deal.
I think it's accurate to any standard non-throwback monowhip. The type that can downgrade glitches. Whether that's the same whip as the one you can place in a fingertip is another question.
Given that placing it in a fingertip compartment is a standard feature...
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I always thought it was a baton with a small ball weight on the end of a very long very thin wire.
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I always thought it was a baton with a small ball weight on the end of a very long very thin wire.
It can be, although I always imagined it more pen-sized than baton-sized. The fingertip compartment has long been the iconic location to house your monofilament whip, however. So much so that players will go to great lengths to put it someplace else just to break with tradition.
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Given that placing it in a fingertip compartment is a standard feature...
And that all descriptions given thus far are official ...
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Given that placing it in a fingertip compartment is a standard feature...
And that all descriptions given thus far are official ...
And, you know, page 455.
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I also don't think you've seen a real whipmaster in action in closed space. Sure, trying to use it in a coffin sized space would be impossible, as would most weapons. But there is quite a bit of room indoors by maneuvering down the length of a hall and such.
Heck it isn't any more impossible to use a whip in an enclosed space as it is to use a katana or sword.
I won't pretend to have seen whipmasters in action in closed space - the closest was a pair of urumi masters in what I'm assuming was a display show (I couldn't read Sri Lankan) due to neither of them bleeding out at the end of the video.
However, I think you're being intentionally obtuse - a standard whip is easier to use than a monowhip which has a weight on the end in order to be effective. Could a monowhip slice through trees and small, low-hanging rafters? Maybe, but that's going to change the movement of the whip and throw off accuracy, even assuming that the weight doesn't get caught on something it's not supposed to (a glitch, perhaps). Nobody ever said or implied anything about trying to use something in a coffin-sized space, the mention was something indoors or when quarters are close enough that you've got friends and enemies all together. With longer weapons like a two-handed club, mace, katana, or longsword you've got to change stance and how you use it because you don't have unrestricted arcs of motion anymore. This is significantly less the case with smaller weapons like katar/punch daggers, stun batons, or the like, but what we're talking about is a whip where its advantage (and, if you think about it realistically, disadvantage) is its reach. You want to have as free motion as possible so you can send the weapon where you want it to go, whether you're using a monowhip, yari, or dagger. The latter two could easily enough be used in confined spaces or situations, the monowhip could not because of how it functions - motion (and motion control) is a large part of the damage a whip causes.
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As always, I would err on the side of simplicity. If you feel like adding a "tight quarters" houserule, I'd make it a dice penalty equal to the reach modifier of the weapon.
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I treat it like Poor Position when I'm running games, -1 to -3 depending on the circumstances. -1 if you're trying to keep the business end of a spear to enemies coming at you down a standard 1m-wide office hallway, -3 if you're trying to use a monowhip under the same conditions.
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I treat it like Poor Position when I'm running games, -1 to -3 depending on the circumstances. -1 if you're trying to keep the business end of a spear to enemies coming at you down a standard 1m-wide office hallway, -3 if you're trying to use a monowhip under the same conditions.
Those things only really make sense if you also remove their Reach bonuses. 'Cause I figure, if the problem is that they're too big to use, they shouldn't still be getting an overall bonus from reach.
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The latter two could easily enough be used in confined spaces or situations, the monowhip could not because of how it functions - motion (and motion control) is a large part of the damage a whip causes.
I always figured that the large portion of what causes the whips damage was the fact it was practically a monothin wire. Like how just handling microwire (Something just a tad thicker) does 8p dmg and -8 ap unless you have special gloves to handle it with.
We're talking about basically flinging around basically the edge of a blade that never loses its sharpness. It has no weight to it. Nearly all of its cutting power comes from the fact its well, monowire. if its the weapon on the card, choke up on the whip. If its the retractable baton, don't use as much.
And why is it a -1 to keep the business end of a spear in a hallway? Spears are thrusting weapon. I don't get it. Now if it was a 2h great axe of some kind. Then yeah. But it seems to me, that spears, being designed as weapons to fight with while in close proximity with other fighters (Allied fighters of course) would be rather well designed for keeping that business end towards an enemy. Unless you're swinging it, instead of thrusting it.
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And why is it a -1 to keep the business end of a spear in a hallway? Spears are thrusting weapon. I don't get it. Now if it was a 2h great axe of some kind. Then yeah. But it seems to me, that spears, being designed as weapons to fight with while in close proximity with other fighters (Allied fighters of course) would be rather well designed for keeping that business end towards an enemy. Unless you're swinging it, instead of thrusting it.
The moment you get into anything other than a perfectly straight thrust, and you would both accidentally and intentionally, the proximity of walls becomes an issue.
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1) Use of the Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip) skill. This means that you can't use the same skill for any other weapon, like you can for Blades and Clubs.
But in which cases would this be a problem? If you have a cyberarm with an installed monofilament whip I find it hard to see you needing to use any other weapon? Although granted, in tight, confined spaces a knife or a hammer would be better, but in most cases?
I guess that my main point here is that should I drop my character's Unarmed combat 5 and turn it to Monofilament whip 5. This would let me drop the unnecessary strength and cyberblade from her cyberarm with which to pay for the whip.
Also, like I said this isn't meant to be a mainly melee character, but something of an all-around combat monster. She has points in every ranged combat method there is except for gunnery but I'd like to have one good melee skill too?
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But in which cases would this be a problem? If you have a cyberarm with an installed monofilament whip I find it hard to see you needing to use any other weapon? Although granted, in tight, confined spaces a knife or a hammer would be better, but in most cases?
There are really a lot of times, like when you need a legal weapon or a non-lethal one.
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But in which cases would this be a problem? If you have a cyberarm with an installed monofilament whip I find it hard to see you needing to use any other weapon? Although granted, in tight, confined spaces a knife or a hammer would be better, but in most cases?
There are really a lot of times, like when you need a legal weapon or a non-lethal one.
Like I mentioned in the first post, the character is already highly illegal and due to aluminum bone lacing can't deal stun damage in melee.
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for me, the only problem I see with it is that you can't specialize in it.
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But in which cases would this be a problem? If you have a cyberarm with an installed monofilament whip I find it hard to see you needing to use any other weapon? Although granted, in tight, confined spaces a knife or a hammer would be better, but in most cases?
There are really a lot of times, like when you need a legal weapon or a non-lethal one.
Like I mentioned in the first post, the character is already highly illegal and due to aluminum bone lacing can't deal stun damage in melee.
Actually, with Shock Gloves, non-lethal remains an option. And as for needing legal weapons, for many of those scenarios (like a bodyguard job) it's just the visible stuff that matters.
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Come to think of it, Shock gloves seem to be a good option. With AP-5 and Damage of 9S it's only slightly worse to the monowhip, although if I use the gloves that means that I can A) Keep my other melee options ready B) Don't have the risk of killing myself with my whip and C) Have atleast one option for nonlethal combat
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Shock gloves also require a lower karma investment for non-melee primary weapons (+2 dice, wins ties).
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And shock gloves use the Unarmed skill, and can be specialized in, and even though they lack any Reach, still "hit" on a tie and possibly get a +2 just for being a "touch attack" I think. They're really pretty amazing to use as a backup weapon for just about anyone. Oh, and you can just get a "shock hand", which is comparable to the fingertip whip.
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I don't take high rankings in any melee skill for the same reason I wouldn't take one of these;
To use it effectively as a weapon, you have to be very close to someone. That person in this world is likely to have a gun and won't particularly want to let you hit him, preferring to shoot you as you move into melee range instead.
Melee is very strong in SR5.
You can move very far in one single action phase
(which let you move around his cover before you attack)
You get a positive dice pool modifier for running and attacking someone with a melee weapon.
You get a positive dice pool modifier to avoid getting hit while running.
Attacking with a long reach melee weapon give your target a negative dice pool modifier to avoid the attack.
Targets get a negative dice pool modifier when trying to hit a running target.
Targets locked in melee get an additional negative dice pool modifier to use ranged attacks.
(even if he tries to attack someone else)
If target tries to leave melee range you get to attack him again
(in the same action phase and for just 5 initiative score, normally an attack cost cost 10).
As long as your target is <15 meters away or so you will get harder to hit if you rush him with a melee weapon than if you spend a simple action to take good cover... ;)
This is how i picture the mono-whip:
http://www.youtuberepeater.com/watch?v=CnefL62NS50&s=43&e=44
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All of that is fine, but what about a situation where it isn't a 1v1? You might gut a mook or two, but against any real opponents you'll have multiple enemies shooting you down, suppressive fire zones to cross and such. Trying to run at someone who's shooting you is usually a bad idea, though situationally might be useful if you outnumber your foe. Guns are generally more useful, yes a whip might have a long reach, but is it as long as an SMG,s reach? Can you suppress people with it?
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All of that is fine, but what about a situation where it isn't a 1v1? You might gut a mook or two, but against any real opponents you'll have multiple enemies shooting you down, suppressive fire zones to cross and such. Trying to run at someone who's shooting you is usually a bad idea, though situationally might be useful if you outnumber your foe. Guns are generally more useful, yes a whip might have a long reach, but is it as long as an SMG,s reach? Can you suppress people with it?
That's why you have to be smart about it, but in the combat you tend to see in Shadowrun, the range is close enough that you can reach - there's a real world concept called the 21-foot rule that relates to this actually. Melee exclusivity is not good, but specializing in it can be quite strong.
Also suppressing fire can be useful, but I haven't found it to be at all as common as you seem to think; in any case, if you get in the mix before the suppressing has a chance to start up, it's not gonna start.
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All of that is fine, but what about a situation where it isn't a 1v1? You might gut a mook or two, but against any real opponents you'll have multiple enemies shooting you down, suppressive fire zones to cross and such. Trying to run at someone who's shooting you is usually a bad idea, though situationally might be useful if you outnumber your foe. Guns are generally more useful, yes a whip might have a long reach, but is it as long as an SMG,s reach? Can you suppress people with it?
intimidation. Kill that first guy, and while drenched in his gore, begin laughing manically. Make them.. feel.. the sharpness of the whip with just your presence alone. (and perhaps a few demonstrations)
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Very idiotic to standard laughing when you're being shot
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Very idiotic to standard laughing when you're being shot
If someone would laugh after dismembering someone AND while he's getting shot at, I'd be scared.
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Very idiotic to standard laughing when you're being shot
If someone would laugh after dismembering someone AND while he's getting shot at, I'd be scared.
I feel like there is a distinct difference in responses if you're scared of something you can kill with bullets compared to being scared of something you can't kill with bullets. 8)
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And shock gloves use the Unarmed skill, and can be specialized in, and even though they lack any Reach, still "hit" on a tie and possibly get a +2 just for being a "touch attack" I think. They're really pretty amazing to use as a backup weapon for just about anyone. Oh, and you can just get a "shock hand", which is comparable to the fingertip whip.
Away from books right now but 4th Ed. also had an augmentation called snake fingers or something like that which let your fingers stretch out two feet. I've always felt that combination had good synergy. Think the fingers where only for cyberhands/arms though.
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Well it depends on how good you roll on your intimidation really. If you've only got one intimidation die then yeah. You ain't doing anything. I told you to make the enemy feel it. And obviously you can't scare robots. So don't try to do it with robots. cause that would be stupid.
Also, learn to multitask. If you can only laugh while standing still, then don't do it. Duh.
I said to make them feel the sharpness of your whip. Unnerve them. Not stand around with your thumb up your bum while trying to laugh like a five year-old school girl. I mean if you're an alchemist you wouldn't go "Oh hang on guys.. I need to enchant my doodad" in the middle of combat to the bad guys would you? Obviously you need to think a little bit.
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Can you suppress people with it?
Yes, in fact you can. Game mechanic-wise.
Suppressive fire put a negative dice pool modifier on people i the area.
People trying to move through the area might get hit.
Melee put a negative dice pool modifier on ranged targets locked in melee.
People trying to move through the melee range might get hit.
Melee never been in such a good spot as it is in SR5.
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Melee put a negative dice pool modifier on ranged targets locked in melee.
People trying to move through the melee range might get hit.
I get what you're saying. You're saying that while a monofilament whip can't use the "Suppressive Fire" action, it can have a similar effect with the "Defender in Melee Target of Ranged Attack" penalty, but that penalty is fixed and only applies to ranged attacks made against a target in melee combat. And it will only work with the target of the melee combat, which means it can only affect a couple people at once, not a whole area. Suppressive Fire is not the same thing, as it's more versatile.
However, I do agree that melee combat is a lot better in general. Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration.... *waits for Run & Gun*
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You know, something occurs to me for melee specialists - if you got Ultrasound based perception through one means or another, and had someone fire in a semi-auto burst of Smoke and Thermal Smoke (or had them strapped to yourself and triggered them as you hit the enemy)...
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...but that penalty is fixed and only applies to ranged attacks made against a target in melee combat.
Attacker (not target) being in melee combat get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice for any ranged attacks.
(and an additional -2 dice if he is trying to hit the guy that just charged him since he is considered running)
And targets that are now locked in melee will get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice when the team-mates of the melee character shoot at them because of Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack.
And it will only work with the target of the melee combat, which means it can only affect a couple people at once, not a whole area.
With melee you can attack up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets at once by spending a free action (so instead of a running single target charge attack you use a walking multiple attack; with a weapon skill of 7 you can lock down 4 targets at once in one single action phase).
Also, Monowhip got a very good reach (which give the defender a negative dice pool modifier when trying to avoid getting hit, similar to using burst fire with a ranged weapon).
Any if the targets are trying to leave, enter or move through melee range (which with a monowhip is a PBAoE of 4 meters, or 5 meters on a Troll) risk getting hit by Interception. This a full attack using full dice pool doing full damage if it hits, and it only cost 5 initiative score. Suppressive fire is a frontal cone attack that is 10 meters wide at widest. Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe. Interception area is a circular area that is 8 meters across (or 10 meters for Troll) and does only affect hostile targets (no friendly fire).
Suppressive Fire is not the same thing, as it's more versatile.
Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.
They both have pros and cons.
In some situations Suppressive Fire will be better for area denial and debuffing.
In others it will be better to send in the martial artist expert for area denial and debuffing.
Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration....
5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??
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Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration....
5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??
And 6(8) with the proper adept build! (plus the extra damage)
Seriously, be VERY afraid of the physical adept using a monowhip. With the right build they will 1-shot almost anything less than a dragon with 13p base damage and ~20 dice to attack, you are talking at least 15P -8AP damage on average.
Give that Adept 12-14+ dice to dodge, plus a decent set of armor to for when absorb when they do get hit, well suffice to say that the dedicated Whip adept is vicious (and I've never seen one glitch *knock on wood*)
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Any if the targets are trying to leave, enter or move through melee range (which with a monowhip is a PBAoE of 4 meters, or 5 meters on a Troll) risk getting hit by Interception. This a full attack using full dice pool doing full damage if it hits, and it only cost 5 initiative score. Suppressive fire is a frontal cone attack that is 10 meters wide at widest. Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe. Interception area is a circular area that is 8 meters across (or 10 meters for Troll) and does only affect hostile targets (no friendly fire).
Mm, it's like D&D with a Spiked Chain and Combat Reflexes all over again. But in Shadowrun no-one just figured "meh I can take a monofilament wire to the torso, I'll be fine". What's the term? "Horrible Rape Radius"?
The Interception ability combined with the penalties inflicted to someone trying to shoot in melee is all that's needed to make it worthwhile IMO. You jump on someone and they're not getting away without taking some damage.
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Attacker (not target) being in melee combat get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice for any ranged attacks.
(and an additional -2 dice if he is trying to hit the guy that just charged him since he is considered running)
And targets that are now locked in melee will get a negative dice pool modifier of 3 dice when the team-mates of the melee character shoot at them because of Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack.
And suppressive fire gives a penalty of -X to all actions in the area, where X is the number of hits on the test. So... not the same.
With melee you can attack up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets at once by spending a free action (so instead of a running single target charge attack you use a walking multiple attack; with a weapon skill of 7 you can lock down 4 targets at once in one single action phase).
And suppressive fire lays down on all targets in the area, which could be... 20 targets? 100 targets? 2 targets? Again, not the same.
Suppressive fire also hit friends and foe.
True, but don't expect that to last. The Advanced Safety System from 4th edition will likely come back with Run & Gun.
Now if only we had a way to increase Accuracy and Armor Penetration....
5(7) accuracy and -8AP not enough for you...??
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Yes, the whip has those stats. But most melee weapons do not. Most are high accuracy, but low AP. 6 accuracy is great, but -2 AP is not so awesome. I can get better stats with a Predator V and APDS rounds. I'm just saying that it'll be nice once we have rules for modifying melee weapons.
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Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.
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Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.
"You guys go on ahead, I'll cover you!" The adept said, swinging his monofilament whip.
Too bad the HTR-team brought guns.
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Suppressive Fire is basically the same thing, just different.
"You guys go on ahead, I'll cover you!" The adept said, swinging his monofilament whip.
Too bad the HTR-team brought guns.
Exactly. Melee is only better in 5th because you can only shoot once in a pass now. It still remains very situational, working better in a close quarters, high cover area. In a larger, more open space you're quite likely to end up all "last of the samurai". If your gm is gonna build in plenty of opportunity for you to shine in melee then superb, have fun. If not, I'd recommend building for ranged combat and take melee as a backup rather than a primary.
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true dat.
most our fire-fights are indoors...
...which basically mean you almost never have more than 15 meters to your target.
But at that range -using SR5 rules- the melee guy is not more exposed than his ranged team mates. Quite the opposite actually. Since the melee guy will almost always be considered running (to benefit from the positive dice pool modifier from charged attacks) and since his ranged team mates don't always spend a simple action to Take Cover he is often the hardest character to hit (even before you add the fact he is an adept that focused quite a lot on being hard to hit).
If you have a ranged weapon and a melee guy charge you (considered running), your best bet is to quick draw a melee weapon of your own
- but if that is not an option then you would want to use your ranged weapon to shoot the Shaman in the background (that is spending complex actions waving his arms instead of rather than seeking cover) rather than the melee adept with the Katana (at least if you look at the math).
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But at that range -using SR5 rules- the melee guy is not more exposed than his ranged team mates. Quite the opposite actually. Since the melee guy will almost always be considered running (to benefit from the positive dice pool modifier from charged attacks) and since his ranged team mates don't always spend a simple action to Take Cover he is often the hardest character to hit (even before you add the fact he is an adept that focused quite a lot on being hard to hit).
If you have a ranged weapon and a melee guy charge you (considered running), your best bet is to quick draw a melee weapon of your own
- but if that is not an option then you would want to use your ranged weapon to shoot the Shaman in the background (that is spending complex actions waving his arms instead of rather than seeking cover) rather than the melee adept with the Katana (at least if you look at the math).
You make a lot of assumptions here. The point is that ranged combat and melee combat are in no ways "similar." They have very different mechanics, as expressed by the charging bonus in your own example. But this is digressing at this point.
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most our fire-fights are indoors...
Yes, most. There's not much you can do when you need to charge down a 50-meter corridor with little to no cover if you're only able to melee.
But then again, Shadowrun is a game about co-op, so if someone else lays down covering fire and you manage to use that to advance to your deadly melee range, then be my quest...
But then again: Do both. Especially for player characters it's not that hard to pick, for example, blades 4 and automatics 4 for 8 skill points or both skills at rating 2 with appropriate specialities to be able to decently melee and shoot? Yes, obviously you will get your ass handed to that superior melee adept who rolls 40 die on the charge. But then again, atleast it gives you more of a fighting chance, especially against everyone else?
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Agreed :)
A combat oriented Street Samurai probably have at least one melee skill that he can use when the situation calls for it - and then an array of ranged skills and weapons to choose from as well.
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Yeah, specialization is fine, but meleee characters should still be able to competently handle some guns, and ranged fighters should be able to at least defend themselves in close combat.
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On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).
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On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).
Shotguns are still longarm weapons. Unless it's a sawed-off shotgun or other specifically shorter-barreled weapon, I'd think it would get at least as much a penalty as rifles. Though I'm no gun expert...
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On that note:
Maybe Shotguns and Pistols should have a smaller negative dice pool modifier if used while running or in melee combat (compared to other ranged weapons).
Shotguns are still longarm weapons. Unless it's a sawed-off shotgun or other specifically shorter-barreled weapon, I'd think it would get at least as much a penalty as rifles. Though I'm no gun expert...
Depends on if you want realistic or action movie. Realistically, even with the widest choke, you need to shoulder that thing to aim accurately. if you go action movie the spread is enough that you can fire it from the hip without issues.
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There are several military spec shotguns.
They are used for CQB (and to blow off locks and hinges of doors when you breach).
And in most FPS games you get to run faster with shotgun and SMG compared to assault rifles.
...and in many of the games it is also easier to run n gun with SMGs and shotguns without using ADS.
(the little real life experience I have of shotguns is that you don't want to hip-fire with them....)
Shadowrun is often more towards Hollywood cool looking action rather than Real life simulation.
I think it would make perfect sense that you could use a shotgun with the same advantages in close quarter battle as you would get from for example using a sub machine gun. It would also give Longarm specialists a weapon of choice to use when going indoors.
But currently there is actually no reason for the sniper to switch to pistol or shotgun instead of his sniper rifle when going inside (it should be). Quite the opposite actually - as with a sniper rifle all targets up to 50 meter will still be within short range (while with a pistol or a shotgun 50 meters is a rather extreme range).
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There are several military spec shotguns.
They are used for CQB (and to blow off locks and hinges of doors when you breach).
And in most FPS games you get to run faster with shotgun and SMG compared to assault rifles.
...and in many of the games it is also easier to run n gun with SMGs and shotguns without using ADS.
(the little real life experience I have of shotguns is that you don't want to hip-fire with them....)
Shadowrun is often more towards Hollywood cool looking action rather than Real life simulation.
I think it would make perfect sense that you could use a shotgun with the same advantages in close quarter battle as you would get from for example using a sub machine gun. It would also give Longarm specialists a weapon of choice to use when going indoors.
But currently there is actually no reason for the sniper to switch to pistol or shotgun instead of his sniper rifle when going inside (it should be). Quite the opposite actually - as with a sniper rifle all targets up to 50 meter will still be within short range (while with a pistol or a shotgun 50 meters is a rather extreme range).
Agreed and disagree with you :P
Shotguns, on the whole are not really military issue, and there are reasons for that (but don't need to go into here).
It's actually law enforcement that mostly uses a shotgun for the exact reason you listed (busting locks), but usually it is only 1 guy out of 4 that actually has the shotgun, the rest are a combination of submachine gun (the MP series is a favorite) , and assault rifle (the M4 is used mostly in the States/Canada. Not sure what European countries use).
The advantage of the shotgun in close quarters is a hotly debated topic currently. This mostly stems from hearing damage to members of the SWAT and other police forces that use a shotgun (shotguns are loud! especially in doors), as well as instances of Shrapnel damage from ether the shot bouncing off solid objects (like a pellet bouncing off a fridge and lodging in a SWAT officers neck! Thankfully non-life threatening.) Or of the lead slug splitting and hitting team members with debris, burning red hot debris..... But the Shotgun's ability to breach doors is winning out for now.
Videogames are really not a good place to go for Firearms info :D they have a host of issues to deal with, and accurate portrayal of how a weapon actually works (including movement, recoil, etc) is not high on their list of things to get right.... It's more about balance... so you run faster with this weapon, are a little more accurate with that one, and auto kill any target 10m away with a stab of a kitchen knife. (looking at you modern Warfare. F**k y*u Modern Warfare!) [really!?!?!? I unload 28 5.56mmm rounds from 20 to 10 meters away into a chest... I actually watch ALL the rounds hit, yet *I* am the one to die when he runs up and "stabs" me from 10 meters away... yea... F.U. Modern Warfare!]
Submachine guns and carbines are the preferred CQB military weapons, but really I doubt you care :P
however, I totally agree with you that sniper rifles have no business in a firefight, especially one in CQB!! I wish they would bring back that wonderful little rule from 4e that said if you used a sniper rifle in a firefight or CQB, you had to make a karma roll for each turn or the accuracy of the weapon when to shit (a progressive dice pool mod)....... But they either took it out or forgot to add it back in...
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Videogames are really not a good place to go for Firearms info :D they have a host of issues to deal with, and accurate portrayal of how a weapon actually works (including movement, recoil, etc) is not high on their list of things to get right.... It's more about balance... so you run faster with this weapon, are a little more accurate with that one, and auto kill any target 10m away with a stab of a kitchen knife. (looking at you modern Warfare. F**k y*u Modern Warfare!) [really!?!?!? I unload 28 5.56mmm rounds from 20 to 10 meters away into a chest... I actually watch ALL the rounds hit, yet *I* am the one to die when he runs up and "stabs" me from 10 meters away... yea... F.U. Modern Warfare!]
Ha, yeah especially when people have been known to survive 40+ stab wounds in gang attacks and such.
I hate that about video games, like why was a rifle butt deadlier in halo than a rocket launcher?
bizarre...
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The fully automatic AA-12 shotgun is only used for military applications AFIK?
As i said, my own real life experience is that you brace shotguns to the shoulder
Nothing your run n gun with ;)
But in the world of SR5 it would make perfect sense that Pistols, Shotguns and SMGs get a smaller negative dice pool modifier when using them while locked in melee or when you are considered running (or some similar bonus that mostly would affect CQB)
Also,
CoD4 Hardcore Mode. Best FPS evar.
(except maybe CS... back before patch 0.6 or so.... when it was still a free mod to HF)
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The fully automatic AA-12 shotgun is only used for military applications AFIK?
As i said, my own real life experience is that you brace shotguns to the shoulder
Nothing your run n gun with ;)
But in the world of SR5 it would make perfect sense that Pistols, Shotguns and SMGs get a smaller negative dice pool modifier when using them while locked in melee or when you are considered running (or some similar bonus that mostly would affect CQB)
Also,
CoD4 Hardcore Mode. Best FPS evar.
(except maybe CS... back before patch 0.6 or so.... when it was still a free mod to HF)
Actually fired an AA-12.... not a bad piece of hardware... thanks to the unique bolt system, very little recoil so it was very accurate!
The reason why Militaries shy away from shotguns is more of logistic issue and a safety issue.
For the logistics side, militaries quickly found that having dozens of different caliber weapons in the field lead to massive problems in logistics. With so many different weapons and calibers, units in the armies sometimes would not get fresh, usable ammo for their weapons on a consistent basis as their was just too much confusion as to who needed what, where. (cira 1890s to 1910)
By the start of WW1, many armies still fielded a variety of weapons, but he calibers used changed from dozens to just a few. (2 or 3 different pistol ammo, 2 or 3 rifle, 1 or 2 machine gun) But this still lead to supply issues as entire regiments would be sent the wrong ammo! Thus leaving them effective out of the fighting... or "Walking targets" during the march towards the enemy lines...
By the start of WW2, most armies had reduced the number of different rounds down to a small hand full, as well as standardized weapons for all soldiers, instead of this mis-mash of weapons of different sizes, quality and makers....
Today, most modern armies function of just a dozen different calibers in total (and yes, the 12-guage is one of them) thus easing the logistics of supplying ammo.
As for safety..... No other weapon in the world jams more often then a shotgun. Doesn't matter what the feed is on a shotgun, be it pump action, semi automatic or fully automatic, the all have a much higher rate of fouling and failure.
Part of this is the fact that shotgun ammo comes in plastic casings and those casing expand and warp in ways that are not as predictable as brass, thus leading to a fouling of the chamber. the other issue is the gas pressures in shotgun shells is actually a lot less then a standard rifle. This leads to incredibly sophisticated feed mechanics to over come this issue... and even then, shotguns still randomly fail (sometimes lethally for the shooter!).
Range is also an issue, combat shotguns rarely have accuracy past 100m (which is not that big of an issue in CQB)
So, in the field, the shotgun is not a trusted weapon by militaries..... They use them yes... but they would much rather give you an assault rifle. After all if your primary weapon fails.... a soldier is almost next to unarmed!
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*facepalms*
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Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets. It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.
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Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets. It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.
That's pretty interesting you probably see smgs for similar reasons.
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Shotguns actually see significantly more use in defense of Navy ships, where boarding operations are entirely close-combat affairs, as a shotgun is far less likely to cause catastrophic damage to the ship itself while still causing plenty of damage to human targets. It's hard to win a firefight when halfway through, you have to drop your gun to stop the massive hole you just blasted in the fire main that's about to make you all drown.
you know, I can totally see that too...
No matter the size of the ship, it rocks and rocks on the water, which would make accuracy hell.... a shotgun load with #1-4 shot? heavy pellets, good spread but is not going to punch holes in the structure either.
And this is probably why militaries keep shotguns.
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When I was on an aircraft carrier, if there was any rocking, I totally didn't notice it. Granted we were in good weather too.
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...and in Vietnam they used handguns (and knives) when they went into the tunnels.
But in SR5 you would use big rigid stock assault rifles (with a grenade launcher under it and possible even gyromounted)
...or a long barrel high caliber sniper rifle with a giant sound suppressor.
In SR5 there is just no reason to bring a pistol, smg or shotgun in CQB
(only reason to ever bring one is possible because they are easier to conceal...)
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When I was on an aircraft carrier, if there was any rocking, I totally didn't notice it. Granted we were in good weather too.
Yeah, rocking's definitely not a main concern on a ship that big, but you still don't want someone putting a rifle round through the JP-5 line, lighting that stuff off.
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Not too sure how many people would attack an air carrier... how many people onboard? 5000?
But a destroyer? Or escort? Those ship's displacement is a lot smaller.
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People who were desperate to fly somewhere would attack an aircraft carrier. *Sage nods*
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Going back to the monofilament whip, it is an insanely great future weapon for lopping off parts, but the disadvantages of a monofilament whip are all where your character meets the real world.
You see, people associate greater risk with things that are shocking and unusual. Police officer gunned down in gang shootout is probably its own section in the trid news. In the GrimDark world of Shadowrun, people get killed by gunfire all the time. Trolls and physical adepts have seen a resurgents in melee weapons, and melee combat. Member of Ronin street gang lives by sword, dies by sword is probably fairly commonplace, too.
Jump to monofilament whip. You go on a shadowrun and leave quivering chunks of some security schlub behind and suddenly, we have a media bonanza! Heads will talk, wives will cry, footage will leak and... no one will work with your character--he's radioactive. Monofilament whips are exposure no shadowrunner wants.
That said, you mentioned that your focus was not melee. I would recommend saving the monowhip as a nasty surprise to use sparingly against people out of the public spotlight and in emergencies.
As a dramatic device for the game, a monowhip is kind of like a lightsaber; in the good star wars movies, it is used sparingly because the characters are trying to fly below the radar. They come out to show the audience that the characters mean business.
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A Monowhip's usefulness is directly proportionate to the amount of pink mohawk in your game.
In a realistic black trenchcoat game it is a tool of serial killers and scary villains. Even wetwork specialists will usually use something less distinctive.
In a full-on pink mohawk game it sits alongside the assault cannon as an iconic tool of destruction. The wielder is protected by refuge in audacity as they cut cars and helicopters in half in the middle of a corp arcology and escape in a stolen VTOL. Or, y'know, "Saint's Row 3: The Shadowrun Campaign".
Most games fall somewhere in between. Talk with your GM to see what his world thinks of monowhips.
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love and hate the monowhip as a GM:
Hate:
Turns weak characters into melee monsters
Love:
just when a player gets used to the weapon and cocky in it's use.... CRITICAL GLITCH! And I get to hear the players heart literally stop beating.
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A Monowhip's usefulness is directly proportionate to the amount of pink mohawk in your game.
In the game I'm in right now, my character has a monofilement whip as her code brown backup weapon.
She has shoulder-length blue hair with an orange horizontal stripe.
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In a full-on pink mohawk game it sits alongside the assault cannon as an iconic tool of destruction.
Oi!! The assault cannon is a perfectly valid tool of destruction in a black trenchcoat campaign!! What else can you use to do 17P with a -6 AP at a frickin' mile range?? You just can't be around when the local KE patrol car shows up to find out WTF that earth-shattering kaboom was, y'know? 'Cause assault cannons, they ain't quiet ...
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In a full-on pink mohawk game it sits alongside the assault cannon as an iconic tool of destruction.
Oi!! The assault cannon is a perfectly valid tool of destruction in a black trenchcoat campaign!! What else can you use to do 17P with a -6 AP at a frickin' mile range?? You just can't be around when the local KE patrol car shows up to find out WTF that earth-shattering kaboom was, y'know? 'Cause assault cannons, they ain't quiet ...
I didn't say a cannon can't be useful in Black Trencoat game (and now I'm imagining a Panther with a silencer and a scope...), just that the troll hip-firing a seven foot belt-fed cannon, preferably modified to full auto, is one of those classic Pink Mohawk images, alongside the chromed up sammie cutting cars in half with a wire and the rigger's A-Team van with retractable miniguns and missile racks and a bay to work on the Face's souped-up monocycle.
It's all in how you use it, and just as importantly all in how you describe it that makes it black vs pink..
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just that the troll hip-firing a seven foot belt-fed cannon, preferably modified to full auto
"Oi, this'll keep the Fragger's 'ed down!" Buster shouted into the commlink, bracing himself before letting out a spray of explosive death from his modified panther, using his gyro harness mounted under his bulky, armoured black trenchcoat to keep the massive weapon at bay. The building across the street starting to collapse from losing it's first floor whilst the opposing Renraku Samurai's hitting the deck instantly.
Completely legit material, right there.
the chromed up sammie cutting cars in half with a wire
The rigger's message showed in the edge of his peripheral vision, something about his FlySpy noticing an armoured van heading to cut their escape route off. Sending an "on it" to the rest of the team, he readied his monowhip. Activating his wired reflexes to just leap out from behind a corner and flick his wrist, the fingertip-compartment hidden whip cutting the vehicle in half across the middle, sending the vehicle careening onto the rival bars on both sides of the street, exploding near simultaneously as the Street Sam turned on his heels to rush to the Rigger's van, his black trenchcoat whipping in the wind.
Still totally legitimate stuff.
and the rigger's A-Team van with retractable miniguns and missile racks
Watching from his FlySpy, the rigger saw the van explode in two fireballs, the Troll having emptied his magazine and jumped into the back of the van, denting the back door. The dwarf decided to make him pay for the repairs after this was done. The Samurai was on the top of the van already, kneeling down in some Japanese Bushido thing or whatnot... He wasn't too knowledgeable about that. but since it allowed the Sam to monowhip down the missiles and grenades fired at them, he wasn't going to complain. Flooring it, he turned the corner to see that the Elf face's "negotiations" hadn't succeeded and he had two more of Samurai-filled armoured vehicles after his monocycle, his black trenchcoat full of bullet holes... He wasn't going to last long. Sending a mental command, the Two Vindicator's spun into action from the sides of the van, the Street samurai's kneeling spot rising up as the missile rack took in the heat signatures of the opposing vehicles. With the speed of thought he shot out two missiles, charring the end of the Samurai's black trenchcoat, turning the wheel and hitting the handbrake to spin the van a neat 180 degrees, the troll opening the back doors of the van...
I didn't know they even made rigger vans without weapon mods?
a bay to work on the Face's souped-up monocycle.
The modificiations he had added clearly worked in his advantage, allowing for superior mobility as rounds from assault rifles missed him... Except for that one. And that. Ouch. Looking at the live feeds on his mirrorglasses, he noticed the rest of the team heading towards his position, the van turning a corner and the weaponry coming to bear. Knowing what to do, he hit the nitro on his monocycle and was flattened into his seat, the missiles zooming past him, the sounds of the exploding vehicles distant for him as he needed to focus all his concentration on making the vehicle jump slightly, flying past the opened doors on the back of the van and hitting the Monocycle-bay on the spot, his body jerking violently as the vehicle was stopped on it's tracks, the monocycle bays suspension shaking him around whilst bringing the vehicle to stop. his head hitting the back of his cycle rather violently as he fell off the bike, coughing up blood. Staggering up, he felt his Pink Mohawk hit the roof of the van as he murmured something about hitting a bar before collapsing onto a back seat.
It's all in how you use it, and just as importantly all in how you describe it that makes it black vs pink..
I mean, if the players get hit with a lot of shit, there's no way of doing stuff undercover and keeping things simple. Drek hits the fan, and the players will NEED to use the best money can get to even survive.
Also, the things I do when I'm bored. I don't even know if this is good fiction. See how I made everything into Black Trenchcoat?
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oh mate. that was brilliant. i wish these forums had a "like" button.
+1 internet to your sir
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Also, the things I do when I'm bored. I don't even know if this is good fiction. See how I made everything into Black Trenchcoat?
Oh, it's pretty good. Not sure how you think it's BT ... or if that was supposed to be sarcasm or irony or some such. But actual 'Black Trenchcoat' it ain't, no, sorry.
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Also, the things I do when I'm bored. I don't even know if this is good fiction. See how I made everything into Black Trenchcoat?
Oh, it's pretty good. Not sure how you think it's BT ... or if that was supposed to be sarcasm or irony or some such. But actual 'Black Trenchcoat' it ain't, no, sorry.
Clearly you missed the fact that they were all wearing black trenchcoats and that they did everything by the books. Definitely.
I 'unno, I tried to think of Pink Mohawk but disguising it into something BT-ish... I mean, the following additions would make it balls to the walls pink mohawk
-The troll runs whilst firing the assault cannon with one hand instead of using a gyro harness and bracing himself.
-The Sammie stands in the middle of the street until the van is within striking distance.
-The rigger actually fires everything on his van at the opposing vans. Also there would have been atleast eight of them.
-I still am unsure of how to make the monocycle... well, anything. I mean, it's just... Weird. Or, well, I think that the face would have also been a shaman and he would have been chased by Renraky samurais riding monocycles whilst he threw a fireball at one and an ice sheet on one, making them collide with a third one coming from behind with them all exploding.
-Everyone would have had a pink mohawk.
Anyone else have any suggestions on this?
PS: I really think I should change the title of this topic.
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I mean, if the players get hit with a lot of shit, there's no way of doing stuff undercover and keeping things simple. Drek hits the fan, and the players will NEED to use the best money can get to even survive.
Also, the things I do when I'm bored. I don't even know if this is good fiction. See how I made everything into Black Trenchcoat?
That was spectacular. Gave me chills reading it. I can't wait to play tomorrow night!