Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Tarislar on <03-21-14/2315:08>
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I was wondering if anyone can tell me what year Deltaware was introduced ?
Also, what product was it first mentioned in ?
Finally, has there ever been anything better than Deltaware mentioned ?
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Not sure, although it's a bit weird that they don't have Gamma grade between Beta and Delta.
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Deltaware (and bioware) was first introduced in Shadowtech, for 2nd Edition. Game-year publication begins 11-30-2052. Nothing better than deltaware is canonically known to exist, especially considering that deltaware is a) uberexpensive and b) supposed to be extremely difficult to get access to - on the lines of 1-2 (usually just 1) deltaware clinic(s) for each megacorporation, and 1 each for maybe twenty AA-rated corporations and major countries.
Gamma has too many negative connotations, is all. You know - gamma rays, Hulks, etc. ;) Though my group did introduce Epsilon-grade implants, which were, um ... er ... in the long run, not good.
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Keep in mind though, that advanced grades didn't become widespread until a few years later. In 2052, (Shadowtech) all the new cyberware was only available in basic ware, as it was too new for alpha and beta.
Maybe I'm going crazy, but I can't find Deltaware in Shadowtech. My search fu is weak right now, but the earliest I can find it is Cybertechnology.
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Hmmm. I believe you're right, Wells. Peculiar; I could have sworn it existed at that point. Hrmpf. Maybe it was still a home-game development. (Because we all had it ...)
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I just remember in the early 50's having to hunt down Shadow Clinics for Alpha and Betaware. Seems so silly now. For the OP, Cybertechnology was in the 2055/2056 timeframe.
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Finally, has there ever been anything better than Deltaware mentioned ?
Bioware. More expensive, less essence, and can get you often similar boni.
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Finally, has there ever been anything better than Deltaware mentioned ?
Bioware. More expensive, less essence, and can get you often similar boni.
Delta-grade bioware. All of the above. Also, so amazingly expensive there's a 99.9% chance that your players will never see it.
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Thanks for the info all.
Yeah, I pulled out my copy of Shadowtech & couldn't find it so it must be in the Cybertechnology book mentioned above, I never got that one back in the day.
I didn't know Bioware came in "Grades", where is that from ?
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Starting from Shadowtech and on, bioware has had grades. The grades have changed names, but they've always been there. In 2nd edition, it was Clonal, Type O, Type G, and Second Hand. In 3rd it was Cultured, Basic, and Second Hand. As of SR4, both cyber and bioware use the same Basic through Delta grades.
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The way I've always understood it, the grade names of ware are essentially generalizations. Evo and Ares will have two distinctly different styles of, say, cyberarms, even if they have exactly the same stats, but they are close enough and recognizeable/qualifiable enough to fit into the same category as far as general essence use, functionality, etc.
So when you have Deltaware, the cyberware and bioware(and nanoware, genetech, etc) are slightly different from company to company, but for sake of the rules and simplicity, they all have the same grade, essence, cost, etc, even though they might make use of it in slightly different ways. That same Delta-grade cyberarm from Evo might have proprietary super-hard bonded polymers and composite fiber-bundles, whereas the Ares one might have a lot more hard edges and more rugged functionality, but they still both operate in enough of a similar manner as to be comparable.
The point of that long-winded blurb is that the grades are subjective. What was delta-grade cyberware 10 years ago might only be considered beta or alpha grade today, based on how quickly technology progresses. If someone in a Corp has prototype Delta-grade implants, they may not necessarily be better than other stuff out there, they might just be using existing technology in new, innovative ways, or be unavailable to the public until trial runs are done.
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That could make sense, but at the same time, the benefits haven't really increased in a couple decades. We've seen Alpha, Beta, and Delta become vastly more available over a couple of decades (both in price and general availability), but usually a major drop in price heralds the arrival of a newer, better product (Delta has gone from 8 x to 2.5x price in a decade).
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The way I've always understood it, the grade names of ware are essentially generalizations. Evo and Ares will have two distinctly different styles of, say, cyberarms, even if they have exactly the same stats, but they are close enough and recognizeable/qualifiable enough to fit into the same category as far as general essence use, functionality, etc.
So when you have Deltaware, the cyberware and bioware(and nanoware, genetech, etc) are slightly different from company to company, but for sake of the rules and simplicity, they all have the same grade, essence, cost, etc, even though they might make use of it in slightly different ways. That same Delta-grade cyberarm from Evo might have proprietary super-hard bonded polymers and composite fiber-bundles, whereas the Ares one might have a lot more hard edges and more rugged functionality, but they still both operate in enough of a similar manner as to be comparable.
All this is essentially true, if a little muddled. Different brands of cyberware do have different styling (hard edges, rugged functionality) and slightly different tech (proprietary polymers, etc.), but different grades share significant similarites - and those are what impact the cost and essence impact.
Each grade represents an assortment of sequential advancements - whether that's implantation techniques, 'implant-acceptance' drugs, and/or improved body-friendly materials. The essence reduction represents how minimal the impact is, or how well your body adapts; the increase in cost represents the necessary increase in the physician's training, or the more powerful drug regimen, or the rarity of the materials.
Now, the reduction in grade costs (from, as Wells said, Deltaware going from 8x cost to 2.5x cost in barely a decade) represents the spread of techniques, the development of better/cheaper methods of producing those materials, or the expanded market for those drugs (and thus increased manufacturing, leading to reduced rarity).
The point of that long-winded blurb is that the grades are subjective. What was delta-grade cyberware 10 years ago might only be considered beta or alpha grade today, based on how quickly technology progresses. If someone in a Corp has prototype Delta-grade implants, they may not necessarily be better than other stuff out there, they might just be using existing technology in new, innovative ways, or be unavailable to the public until trial runs are done.
This, unfortunately, is well off the mark. The essence-impact reduction will be the same now as it was ten years ago; the techniques may be somewhat improved, but see the above for reasons of cost reduction - the implication is that such techniques and materials have not significantly advanced in quality, only in spread, and thus the cost has come down. A prototype piece of 'ware, however, is either going to be a complete prototype ("You got a what?!? A bioware tongue?!?") and thus is not going to be a 'graded' piece of 'ware in any way, shape, or form, or else it will be a tried-and-true technology ("Yeah, I know, just a cyberarm ...") that is using experimental essence-impact-reduction materials ("... but the musculature is a buckytube technique we haven't tried before.") and thus is very expensive - and hopefully possessing a reduced impact.
SOTA advancement - at least in implants - is something that has (IMO thankfully) fallen by the wayside; the core issue with implant advancement is that you always have to compare whether a brand-new piece of 'same-level' 'ware really is an advancement above and beyond the basic upkeep of a previous equivalent piece of 'ware, and how that relates to a completely unmodified individual.
Theoretically, upkeep should maintain your gear at the same level - say, Wired Reflexes 1 making and keeping you '60% faster' than an unmodified human. If a newly-implanted young buck has Wired-1 as well, but his Wired-1 is a 'generation' ahead of yours and he's supposed to be '65% faster', then ... this doesn't get reflected in the stats anywhere. His Wired-1 initiative roll's 1s aren't considered 2s, for example; he's just faster 'in the fluff', not when it gets down to the grit of throwing them bones out onto the table to see who goes first - or to find out how MUCH faster they are than Mr. Baseline.
If it WAS an advancement, then shouldn't there be some sort of actual incremental advance in comparison to Mr. Baseline? Instead of +1 Reaction and +1 Initiative Pass (for 4e), Kid Now gets ... err ... +1 Reaction and +1 Pass. Because, after all, he doesn't have Wired-2.
Upkeep costs, yes, I agree that there should be upkeep costs - visits to the street-doc or a ware-grade clinic every six months or so for review and tweaking, and if you don't, well, then you maybe take a non-permanent -1 to your Physical or Stun Damage Track depending on the 'ware - which of course goes away as soon as you get a checkup and any necessary tweaks and repairs. But advancing the SOTA means (or should mean) real, tangible advances above and beyond Old Codger and Mr. Baseline.
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Not sure, although it's a bit weird that they don't have Gamma grade between Beta and Delta.
I believe it was stated that they got the greek alphabet wrong.
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Mostly due to game mechanics, SR doesn't track SOTA for anything.... They have tried this in the past, and for the most part, it was a huge flop.
Mechanics wise, there is not difference between someone who got their ware in 2060 and one who got their ware in 2075 (except of course, the wi-fi thing)....
And honestly, there reaches a point that some things just can not be improved on past a current point (tech wise and production wise)...
And, TBH, we are talking about a melding of human and machine, there is just so far you can push the human body to preform.....
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There's only so much that you're going to do and see a mechanics difference in the performance of cyberware, whether you're looking at things from a strictly game-crunch-perspective or more fluff-perspective. Diminishing Marginal Returns.
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Cyberzombie built with Standard Grade ware, as opposed to Delta grade ware?
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Cyberzombie built with Standard Grade ware, as opposed to Delta grade ware?
No, I mean just how far can you push the fleshy bits of the system performance wise.
Take something simple say, like your bicep. Just how much muscle augments can you infuse into the muscle (or replace the muscle) before you actually have to worry about snapping the bone? And once you get down to replacing the bone and the muscle, are we not basically talking about a cyber arm?
I am saying that it is because of this "natural" built in ceiling of just how far you can push the meat that really limits the SOTA = Alpha/beta/delta theory.
Things are made for mass production, this is what keeps costs down (Standard ware)
If you want to pay a little more, and wait a little longer, a cyber tech can customize the basic option to better if your physology (Alpha Ware)
If you really have some cash, and the time, a Cyber Specialist can take a generic Cyber system and custom tweak it even better. throw in an advanced surgical suite, Custom drugs and care, and now you are cooking! (Beta ware)
If you have sold your soul, or just really pissed off the rich and powerful, you may be on the receiving end (one way or the other) of Cyber ware custom designed around your physiology, matched with the best surgical doctors, meds and care! (delta ware)
Hence why there is no "yearly implant bonus" or modifiers, the tech is the best it, in and of itself, is the best it can be for use by the general masses, and probably has been for years. The Grades involve matching the cyber more efficiently to your personal self and/or much better quality in overall medical care. Your general Street doc might be able to install Alpha level ware... But Beta? Delta?
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Take something simple say, like your bicep. Just how much muscle augments can you infuse into the muscle (or replace the muscle) before you actually have to worry about snapping the bone? And once you get down to replacing the bone and the muscle, are we not basically talking about a cyber arm?
This reminds me of the old story example in 2nd (Shadowtech, maybe) where the guy with two cyberarms of immense strength tries to lift a car and has them both rip off at the shoulder.
The flesh will always limit the chrome.
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Alpha and beta appeared in Shadowtech. Delta and cultured bioware were in Cybertechnology. Also: in 2nd, you could reduce the essence loss from implants by up to 20% depending on the skill/successes of the surgeon.
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Alpha and beta appeared in Shadowtech. Delta and cultured bioware were in Cybertechnology. Also: in 2nd, you could reduce the essence loss from implants by up to 20% depending on the skill/successes of the surgeon.
Actually Alpha/Beta were in Street Samurai Guide.
Bioware came out in Shadowtech. To include cultured IIRC.
Deltaware, which I was wondering about, is in Cybertechnology.
Interesting that we went from Alpha to Delta in 5 years but seem to have capped for the last 20 now.
You would think they would have found something better.
Though, the cost dropping certainly makes it seem like what is here is easier to get.
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It's probably a technology plateau. You see this a lot in real-world tech; it will advance rapidly for a period of time, and then suddenly stop advancing for a period of time due to lack of ability to advance it farther. Then some discovery is made and it either advances or gets left behind. The electronics industry in particular is prone to it; most of the "advancements" they make are just refinements and clever uses of existing tech until a discovery comes along that allows them to race forward again.
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Pretty much the latter. Deltaware's prices and availability is a bump in the road compared to the massive block that they used to be.
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It's probably a technology plateau. You see this a lot in real-world tech; it will advance rapidly for a period of time, and then suddenly stop advancing for a period of time due to lack of ability to advance it farther. Then some discovery is made and it either advances or gets left behind. The electronics industry in particular is prone to it; most of the "advancements" they make are just refinements and clever uses of existing tech until a discovery comes along that allows them to race forward again.
This is actually something you see a lot if you look at technology and history. Railroads and telegraph lines were both growing at an exponential rate and were predicted to continue doing so without end. Obviously this was not the case (though you could argue that modern telecommunications lines just replaced telegraph lines and networks, that's not the same thing). "Processors will double in power every x amount of time" was another prediction that is already becoming as inconsistent as nuclear isotopes and will likely not hold out the next 50 years simply due to the economics of what's necessary to double capacity or power and the returns for doing so.
That being said, I'd just like the forgotten "gamma" to get put (back) in somewhere. If you're going to use Greek letters, might as well use the proper sequence.
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That being said, I'd just like the forgotten "gamma" to get put (back) in somewhere. If you're going to use Greek letters, might as well use the proper sequence.
Hmm.
I noticed that Beta is now 70% essence but when it first came out it was 60%.
Ergo.
Gamma = 60% Essence.
TA DA !!!!