Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: lonewolf23k on <11-24-10/1613:39>
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Something I got to thinking about while reading up on Sperethiel, the Ancient Elven Language in Shadowrun; I wondered if some modern-day Elves had instead adopted the Elven languages invented by Tolkien, when a thought occurred to me: The story of the Lord of the Rings was presented as an ancient, rediscovered legend of the world before magic faded away...
...What if it turns out that was true? What if Tolkien, instead of inventing the world of Middle-Earth from scratch, had really found records saved from the end of the Fourth World, retelling of a battle between a Kingdom of Humans, Dwarves and Elves (and a Gnome-like variant race of Dwarves) against a kingdom of Orks and Trolls? The portrayal of the Orks and Trolls as Horror-Serving monsters could be little more then Historical Revision by the winners.
Perhaps then that Sindarin was an early, first attempt at translating a record in Sperethiel before the rise of the Sixth World.
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Oh god, not Tolkien. Please, please no Tolkien.
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I had done some calculations on the Mayan calendar and seeing if the "Ages" could be applied to certain areas and, well, sorry Monky.
Tolkien's Fourth Age starts after Frodo destroys the ring. That would jive with an age of rising magic, aka the Earthdawn Age (which is the end of the fourth age). So, it could be pre-pre-history.
But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us. :(
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I had done some calculations on the Mayan calendar and seeing if the "Ages" could be applied to certain areas and, well, sorry Monky.
Tolkien's Fourth Age starts after Frodo destroys the ring. That would jive with an age of rising magic, aka the Earthdawn Age (which is the end of the fourth age). So, it could be pre-pre-history.
Hey, I never said it was an accurate translation. ...Heck, for what it's worth, Tolkien probably ended up translating a completely fictional novel of the Fourth Age. Wouldn't that be ironic?
But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us. :(
Yeah, I heard about Gibson's dislike of Shadowrun, but I didn't know about the Tolkien hate. ...Seeing as how I love both Tolkien and Shadowrun, it never occured to me.
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I don't get the obsession with tying it all together in the first place. Who cares? Obviously they're both influences, but why try to shoehorn Tolkien (or Gibson for that matter) into it? Just let it all stand apart.
Fantasy of all kinds really needs to start pulling away from Tolkien anyway. In general, it's hampered too much by the various Tolkien tropes and cliches.
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Well, the Tolkien hate's not as strong because it's spawned SOOOO much in the gaming world. But trying publishing a gaming book using the word Hobbit for a race... ;)
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Well, the Tolkien hate's not as strong because it's spawned SOOOO much in the gaming world.
Yeah, but you'd think people would be more willing to look beyond Tolkien. Or at least take things further or in different directions than they do.
But trying publishing a gaming book using the word Hobbit for a race... ;)
They did that, back in 1st Ed D&D.
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They did that, back in 1st Ed D&D.
Yeah, and TSR caught holy hell from the Tolkien estate because of it... Which is why D&D has halflings. ;)
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Yeah. All they did at first was change the name. For years they were still the exact same thing in all but name. Creepy giant hairy feet and all.
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I don't get the obsession with tying it all together in the first place. Who cares? Obviously they're both influences, but why try to shoehorn Tolkien (or Gibson for that matter) into it? Just let it all stand apart.
Fantasy of all kinds really needs to start pulling away from Tolkien anyway. In general, it's hampered too much by the various Tolkien tropes and cliches.
Look, the reasoning of this idea was "Well, Tolkien obviously existed in the History of Shadowrun, and he must've written the Lord of the Rings saga. So in a world that did have an ancient prehistoric world of Magic and Dragons, did he really come up with the idea all on his own, or did something (or someone) inspire him to write it?"
I'm certainly not suggesting that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Frodo and all the rest actually did exist during the days of Earthdawn.
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From what I know of pre-Tolkien elfs and dwarfs, it is pretty clear that Shadowrun's elves and dwarves are primarily based on Tolkien's versions. Of course Shadowrun orks and trolls are very non-Tolkien (and I suspect deliberately so).
Having said that, in the Shadowrun universe the Fourth World—and its elves and dwarves—came before Tolkien, so clearly he had access to some information that most of the world did not.
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The key is that the "Ages" of Earthdawn/Shadowrun are in the Millennial range, not centuries. So, Tolkien's Middle Earth would be the beginning of the Fourth age, while Earthdawn would be at a MUCH higher Mana Point somewhere just past the midpoint of the age (anywhere between 2,000-5,000 years past Frodo). And with higher mana comes the more esoteric races (Windlings, Obsidimen, etc.). That's also plenty of time for Uruk-hai and Trolls to evolve into the more familiar brands...
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So in the "real" story—that Tolkien adapted and expanded into Middle Earth—the One Ring would be a Second World artifact that allows the early return of Sauron (a horror). By destroying the Ring, the heroes thus prevented his early return.
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The way I figure it, unless you're going to have the lost 4th Age manuscripts that Tolkein cribbed from in you game, its more or less irrelevant whether or not its true. Personally, if I'm going to have lost 4th Age manuscripts, it'll look more like something from Dawn of Artifacts. In the same way, I tend not to speculate on relationships to Earthdawn unless they're likely to crop up in play.
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But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us. :(
Hmmm never heard from this before, then again I have limited contact with that fandom...so how come if I may ask?
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But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us. :(
I Like 'em both :D
and I play Hobbits in Shadowrun ;D
with a Dance in the shires
Medicineman
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But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us. :(
I Like 'em both :D
and I play Hobbits in Shadowrun ;D
with a Dance in the shires
Medicineman
I'm with Medicineman, though I've never felt the inclination to specifically play a hobbit. :P
And yeah, Tolkien (the real one, as opposed to our hypothetical translator) knew full well he was writing revisionist history of elves and dwarves. I've a pile of stories he drew inspiration from (nicely compiled in a book called Tales Before Tolkien). somewhere not too far away is my copy of Neuromancer. What I really need to do is put my Tolkien books and Gibson books together, see if SR1 mysteriously appears in their place. For Science!
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Just for kicks, and as a test, I put together a Tribal Shaman following Adversary, which the character (NPC intended) envisions as Melkor Morgoth from The Silmarillion. The envisioning is more like a reality filter than anything else . . . but it fits.
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The only problem with trying to tie Frodo in with the Fourth Age is that none of the creatures mentioned could exist prior to the Fourth Age in Earthdawn because there was no ambient mana. The Third Age was another downcycle, i.e. no magic, no magical creatures (except those in hibernation).
I'm more curious as to what went on during the Second Age. For that matter, what exactly defined the First Age? Was it just a bunch of pre-history? What launched the world into the Second Age? Why was it called the "Age of Dragons?"
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I've always assumed it was the Age of Dragons because the dragons more or less directly ruled over the Young Races.
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The only problem with trying to tie Frodo in with the Fourth Age is that none of the creatures mentioned could exist prior to the Fourth Age in Earthdawn because there was no ambient mana. The Third Age was another downcycle, i.e. no magic, no magical creatures (except those in hibernation).
I'm more curious as to what went on during the Second Age. For that matter, what exactly defined the First Age? Was it just a bunch of pre-history? What launched the world into the Second Age? Why was it called the "Age of Dragons?"
Hmmm, everyone does pay a lot of attention to the Fourth Age. Now that was, what, about 10,000 years ago that it ended and presumably went for 10,000 years itself. All fine and good. But the
THIRD Age would be 10,000 years of no mana and no horrors. There's no reason to assume that the end of the Third Age was at least as technically advanced as the Fifth but with a completely different cultural arc. So the tech level would be about the same, but the course it took to get there would be totally different. Now that could be some interesting stuff.
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Some background info:
The Mayan calendar's b'ak'tun is almost 400 years. Each 'cycle' of 13 b'ak'tun is then about 5,200 years. The way I've calculated it out, to get five (going back from the start of the sixth age) "ages" since the dawn* of Homo Sapiens, it would be approximately 10 of these cycles. Therefore, each of these Mesoamerican Long-count periods are marking off a quarter of the mana cycle (see the sine wave below). An "age" begins everytime the mana cycle has an "equinox" (or it crosses the x-axis). So, the Fourth age begins at zero, peaks at π/2, then ends at π. The Fifth age begins at π, bottoms out at 3π/2 and ends on 2π. At the end, it then begins again, so the Sixth age starts at 0 again. This would put the time of horrors crossing over around 2,600 years from the beginning of the sixth age, or around 3600 AD (glad we've got BattleMechs by then... ;)). Of course, this wave graph is only as good when we're not putting huge strains on the mana level. So, next time your mage wants to overcast the fireball "just for show", slap him in the back of the head, Gibbs-style.
(http://www.yourdictionary.com/images/main/A4sinecu.jpg)
*Dawn of Homo Sapiens would be when most scientist consider us as a race achieving "behavioral modernity", which was about 50,000 years ago. As a species, we've been around almost 200,000 years...
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See Humans and the Cycle of Magic (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic) at the Sixth World Wiki for the original source of the dates used in Shadowrun.
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See Humans and the Cycle of Magic (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic) at the Sixth World Wiki for the original source of the dates used in Shadowrun.
Cool, thanks!
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Yeah, the Cycles of Magic doc has Erhan stating Atlantis sinking (3114 BC) marked the end of the 4th Age, beginning of 5th, and that the start of the 6th Age was on 2011 (the Maya were a year off). So that gives the 5th cycle a length of 5125 years.
The big assumptions are that the whole flowery "Cycles of Magic" title is actually a close fit to a sin wave and that each Age is roughly equal in length (like maybe +/- x years).
Though having fun with those assumptions, since the total length of an age is 5125 years, then the peak/trough of each magic cycle happens at about 2562.5 (rounding to 2563) years after the cycle begins.
So setting the start of the first age at 0, you have:
0 - 23,614 BC - 1st Age start
2563 - 21,052 BC - 1st Age trough
5125 - 18,489 BC - 1st Age end/2nd Age start
7688 - 15,927 BC - 2nd Age peak
10,250 - 13,364 BC - 2nd Age end/3rd Age start
12,813 - 10,802 BC - 3rd Age trough
15,375 - 8239 BC - 3rd Age end/4th Age start (Earthdawn age)
17,938 - 5677 BC - 4th Age peak
20,500 - 3114 BC - 4th Age end/5th Age start
23,063 - 552 BC - 5th Age trough
25,625 - 2011 AD - 5th Age end/6th Age start
Now if I remember correctly, in Earthdawn everyone went underground to avoid the Horrors for 400 years. Averaging it to an even split (200 years on either side of the peak) this means that the Horrors started coming in earnest around 5477 BC and dwindled low by 5877 BC.
So here's where my math diverges from FastJack, I get the peak of the 6th Age at 4574 AD, with the Horror-Hoedown starting around 4374 AD (assuming 200 years on either side of the peak).
Again, the dates are all based on the Cycle of Magic document. And there's a good helping of assumptions.
Fun things to add as flavor in campaigns...
Earth's precession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_%28astronomy%29#Astronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_%28astronomy%29#Astronomy)) is approximately 26,000 years...about the time from the start of the 1st Age to the end of the 5th. Making the 6th "special" ... how you want to define special of course is up to you; Horrors come early and often, new Age of Dragons, rise of the Jackalopes, etc. Anyway, the "Great Cycle of the Precession passing through 5 Ages and starting over again" is one of those nice semi-anchored in reality plot devices at your disposal.
As FastJack pointed out, with modern humans emerging around 50,000 years ago, that's about two Precession cycles or 10 Ages, with the 6th Age being the 11th Age from then.
Anyway, love the Cycle of Magic doc for the info it plays with. Lots of fun to play with the cycles, fitting mana spikes to it. Like the "mini-awakening" which happened in the Middle Ages in Europe (I think that's from the old Germany Sourcebook, or maybe an adventure. If I remember I'll check when I get home.). With the spike of Kabbalah, Alchemy, Goetic magic, and Hermeticism, all really taking off during that time period you can incorporate Dr. Dee's Enochian language as an actual language/script of spirits, Kabbalah Tree of Life as an initiate's path and so on.
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A similar table with calculations down to the day is in the background section of Humans and the Cycle of Magic (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic#Background).
Using the consensus of modern scholars, a Mesoamerican "world" is 1,872,000 days long. However, according to Ehran, the mundane Fifth World lasted 1,871,270 days, and the Sixth World will last 1,871,970 days. It seems a safe assumption that Ehran is using the age of Fourth World as his basis. The differences might not seem like much, but rounding errors start to add up over time.
Anyway, based on Ehran, one can deduce that the Fourth World began on 3 May 8238 BC (Gregorian), and peaked around 23 December 5676 BC (Gregorian), setting Earthdawn a few hundred years later.
By the same calculations, the Sixth World will peak around 14 August 4574 AD (Gregorian), so we have a couple thousand years to get ready.
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That's awesome, thanks MJBurrage. I didn't know there were two versions of the text, hehe. Cool to see the editing process between the two. "Oh that tickles me in a way that if Loretta tickled me I would say "oh...that's nice."
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An interesting point is that if I recall correctly, the zeroth world is the one in which the horrors created the dragons. No source has gone into how long the zeroth world lasted, and I got the impression that it was possible that the the mother of dragons defeating the rest of the horrors started the cycle.
So the dragons essentially won (or at least thought they had won) and then magic faded away, and they went into hibernation during the First World. By the time they woke for the Second World, many had been killed by humans during the down-cycle, and the dragons created immortal elves to be their guardians during the Third World. The return of the horrors at the peak of the Second World may have been unexpected. Regardless, in Earthdawn this age ruled by dragons is known as "The Age of Dragons"
Early in the Fourth World, the dragons realized that the immortal elves were too independent to make trustworthy guardians, and so the dragons explored other routes, leading to drakes. At the same time the immortal elves and dragons both knew that the horrors would return, hence the creation of Kaers.
So we get Earthdawn during the latter half of the Fourth World, and the Shadowrun at the dawn of the Sixth.
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I bet that's just dragon propaganda, they don't want to admit the dwarves made the dragons to watch over their mountain fungal farms ;)
I need to break out my Earthdawn books again and re-read a lot of the history, it's been over 10 years now and much has faded.
That would be a good thread to start (if it hasn't been created already) a list of Earthdawn books for GMs by background/historical relevance to Shadowrun. 10 being, "GMs need this book over their first born because of all the connections to Shadowrun" and 1 being "Well, it's Earthdawn, which is same universe as Shadowrun, but that's about all the connection." [begin homey-southern accent] If any'ya'll know uv such a list, could'ya be so kind as ta point me tuh the url [end homey-southern accent].
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Right of the top of my head there are three books I would rate a 10 then.
- Book of Dragons - Earthdawn sourcebook, which covers some great dragons still alive in Shadowrun, and their recollection of the Second World
- Immortals trilogy by Caroline Spector (since part 3 is the SR novel Worlds Without End):
- Part 1: Scars
- Part 2: Little Treasures
See Shadowrun/Earthdawn Crossovers (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Shadowrun_to_Earthdawn.htm) by Ancient History for much more.
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Awesome, danka :)
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Early in the Fourth World, the dragons realized that the immortal elves were too independent to make trustworthy guardians, and so the dragons explored other routes, leading to drakes. At the same time the immortal elves and dragons both knew that the horrors would return, hence the creation of Kaers.
The thing is, most of the Immortal Elves are ones born in the Age of Legends (Fourth World, Earthdawn era), witch Alachia and Ehran being a possible (but not certain) exception. Harlequinn is one of those born before the 4th World Scourge (as he hails from the City of Spires and seems to have been born there).
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Early in the Fourth World, the dragons realized that the immortal elves were too independent to make trustworthy guardians, and so the dragons explored other routes, leading to drakes. At the same time the immortal elves and dragons both knew that the horrors would return, hence the creation of Kaers.
The thing is, most of the Immortal Elves are ones born in the Age of Legends (Fourth World, Earthdawn era), witch Alachia and Ehran being a possible (but not certain) exception. Harlequinn is one of those born before the 4th World Scourge (as he hails from the City of Spires and seems to have been born there).
Alachia (Sheila Blatavska/Sosan Naerain) and Ehran (guess!) are DEFINITELY both from the Age of Legends, as are Aina and Harlequin.. Frosty isn't, Lady Brane Deigh (Lady of the Court) Lugh Surehand, and Sean Laverty possibly aren't Complete details in the Ancient History files.
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Looking over the Ancient Files site, it sounds more like all of the current cast of Immortal Elves are from the Fourth Age. At least nothing seems to imply that they were doing anything in the two ages prior.
Then again, I feel like we've reached the depth of backplot where you can pretty much go in any direction you want as a GM without harming the feel of the game so what's "true" is pretty much immaterial. Dragons might be the only ones with memories of an Age prior to the Fourth or they may not. However, the idea that they created Immortal Elves and that the immortality breeds true (at least with two Immortal parents) means that spontaneous IE's are probably not going to happen.
Of course with Spirit Pacts or Third Age equivalent of Leonization, anyone can be Immortal, not just Elves. I think I'll throw some immortal [edit]non-Mage non-elves in my next campaign as foils to the Vast Right Wing Immortal Elf Conspiracy. :)
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Alachia is rumored to be not another queen taking the name, but the one and only First Queen of the Elves. I didn't know she's Blavatska, since hers were one of the most anti-theran(atlantian) kingdoms of Barsaive. Well, only cows don't change their worldwiev.
As for the Spirit Pact immortality, it's a good story fuel. Especially if one of the player wants it, gets it, and then has to deal with the consequences. :P
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It comes together a little more . . . Alachia is Sheila Blataska is the poster Hecate is Prince Sosan Naerain of Tir Tairngire (recorded as the only person to have publicly chewed out High Prince Lugh Surehand and gotten away with it; by report he stood there and took it) . . . apparently she's also someone high up (as in Seelie Court) in Tir na nOg as well.
She seems to multitask about as well as Lofwyr is supposed to ::)
As for Spirit Pact immortality . . . wow. I never thought of that. Is it actually possible?
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Look it up in Street Magic, page 108, Formula Page. The mage gets Immunity to Age, by becoming a living Spirit Formula (oh, those Astral tatoos are seriously weird, man).
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Of course Immunity to Age won't keep you alive forever. Statistically you're going to get sick, get in an accident or something eventually. Still, I can see it working for a few people. I really like the idea of this NPC. some Johnson who's just a human, not magically active (for real, not just good at masking), who's not some great powerful political figure but has been around basically forever. When your peers are double digit Initiates and Dragons, it pays to be low key and not attract attention.
Edit: Oh, and note that while you have to be Awakened to form a Spirit Pact at creation, it is possible to summon and negotiate with Free Spirits as a mundane. Its just not easy to get a hold of their formula. I'm currently kicking around a concept for a mundane PC to see how magically useful he can be without a Magic stat. Did Astral camera film make it into 4e?
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There's also the other part - Life Pact, that would let the mage heal himself using the spirits power. I'd go for it, as it could be also (logically) used to get rid of disease, as well as wounds. It costs Karma though (1 Karma for healing 2 damage), so it would be a pain to use.
As for the camera, and manatech stuf, it did. It's in Street Magic or Arsenal, i don't remember which one.
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So the horrors created the dragons?
Woah.
Apparently lots I need to read up on. I've even considered running a horror slaying campaign eventually. What books talk about the creation of the dragons and the 2nd world, or is that Earthdawn stuff?
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According to the dragon legend from Dragons, yes (ED book). And you can easily assume it was Verjigorm, who hunts and corrupts them, as he fits the description of the Dark One, as the most badass Horror ever (he hunts Great Dragons, damnit, and they fear him).
And as a side note, look how similar that story is to the origins of Imortal Elves? I feel a Mage: The Awakening quote comming. :P
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Wow you guys are chock full of info and I'm digging it, especially the info on the previous ages. Very interesting.
Something I got to thinking about while reading up on Sperethiel, the Ancient Elven Language in Shadowrun; I wondered if some modern-day Elves had instead adopted the Elven languages invented by Tolkien, when a thought occurred to me: The story of the Lord of the Rings was presented as an ancient, rediscovered legend of the world before magic faded away...
This I think is a fun conspiracy to run with. I am so going to do it for a game.
Thank you all for the great ideas and info.
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That's the great thing about playing in the Shadowrun Universe...everything is available to the GM and I mean EVERYTHING!
Was Stephen King actually an early arrival shedim with a penchant for the written word who never had to sleep and could write 24/7 365...sure...or he was just a prolific, human, writer.
Lovecraft gained insight of the horrors...sure...or he was just a writer in the early 20th century?
Dr. John Dee actually summoned spirits and recorded the alphabet of spirits during a mana spike in the 16th century...sure...or he was just a very interesting, but mundane, member of Queen Elizabeth's court?
Was El Dorado actually an materialized Alchera that returned to the astral before the Spanish could find it...sure...or it was just a myth.
12th and 13th century Jews in Spain actually formulated a path of initiation via the Kabbalah and the Tree of Life diagram (one of my favorite characters I played was a Jewish Troll magician who used Kabbalah and I assigned the different metamagic techniques to the Tree of Life who could only get the techniques by following a path from one to the other, couldn't learn a technique if he didn't get the others lower on the tree first)...sure...or where they just eccentric students of the Torah?
Does the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) actually describe an Astral journey to the metaplanes, near the lowest point of the 5th age's cycle at ~300 BC...sure...or is it just one writer's attempt to make sense of Sons of God/Daughters of Men section in Genesis?
I could go on, but Tolkien learning bits and pieces and putting it together into a largely fictional (but with hints of the "truth") story that included the a primer on the elven language, or an elven language...sure...or he was just a really thorough and meticulous writer that happened to survive one of the deadliest battles of WWI.
:)
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A few notes:
- Tolkien constructed the mythology behind the LOTR out of a desire to create one for a myth-cycle for the British Isles on par with the better-known ones in other ancient cultures. Also, the whole concept behind "Numenor" was a take on the Atlantis legend. An unpublished, unfinished story called "The Lost Road" was going to be about Numenor/Atlantis, as told from a type of psychic time-travel with a reoccurence of a friendship throughout history dating back to Numenor. In the SR universe, maybe his interest - plus being a British professor with a strong background in linguistics - gave him access to bits and pieces of information that he assembled into a fictional framework. (It would be more interesting if he died early or suspiciously a la Ambrose Bierce to imply the "Immortals" have something to do with suppressing him, but alas he died peacefully at a ripe old age).
- There seems to be the implication that dragons possibly - possibly, mind you - aren't originally from here. Certainly there's a strong implication that Mars was inhabited and effectively rendered lifeless by their equivalent of a Scourge. One of my favorite conspiratorial ramblings at the end of the "Madagascar" section of Cyberpirates! discusses some of the more bizarre possibilities, but that skeleton in one of the Mars photos certainly looks like a large reptile.
- I don't know if one of the later sourcebooks covered it, but something is going on with magic in EARTHDAWN - namely, that instead of continuing to decrease the magic level is remaining steady for some unknown reason. '
- Maybe you have to like both Tolkien and Gibson, not just one, to like Shadowrun. Or at least it's true in my case. ;)
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Well, as it was already written - i think - in Earthdawn magic was kept on a steady level by the workings of Theran Empire, or Atlantis, as it is known in SR.
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I figured that they had a hand in it, but I'm curious how they managed it...
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There's been discussion of it in the forums here. If I recall correctly, they anchored magic to the world with giant pillars of orichalcum. Sort of a giant magical flywheel, which eventually came crashing to a halt.
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From what I've heard, the pillars didn't end up adding to the ambient magic, so much as they multiplied it.
That might sound better, but it meant that on the date when magic was due to go away, it still did, but with a crash rather than a whimper. (zero ambient magic multiplied is still zero magic)
I.E. without the pillars magic would have waned slowly, hitting zero on 12 August 3113 BC
With the pillars, the magic level stayed higher, but still hit zero on 12 August 3113 BC, taking Atlantis with it. (since the city, as built, could not stand without magic)
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MJ, Atlantis/Thera needed magic to exist. So, it sank when the magic level finally declined and reached a low level which couldn't sustain it anymore. Definitely not 'level zero'. The end of the era marked by the sinking of Thera is a 'milestone' event, marking the end of high magic. Magic could be low then, just remember, there was a whole Fifth World during which it declined even further. So it couldn't be zero.
Plus, Atlantis/Thera was for sure a huge mana pocket.
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In my example I am calling the level of magic needed for simple spells, elf/dwarf births, and active dragons "zero"
This is the level that Earth went above on 24-Dec- 2011 AD, as it transitioned from the Fifth World to the Sixth World. The same level that Earth went below on 12-Aug- 3113 BC.
As I understand it, the high power magics used by Atlantis should probably have stopped working well before the 3113 BC date, in the same way that high level magics should not have been possible in the Sixth World until decades after the 2011 date. Things like the GGD were spikes above the ambient level, and Atlantis's pillars kept the local mana higher than normal as well.
However when the 3113 threshold date was reached, the pillars could no longer maintain the spells required by Atlantis.
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You didn't specify this. :)
As for the pillars, it could be anything else - like sabotage, war, malfunction. Or it could be that they couldn't keep magic high enough to sustain orichalcum itself, and it was disrupted.