Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Cronstintein on <04-09-14/1222:47>
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So I was weighing the merits of street Sam vs adepts last night and I think I figured out why it skews in the adept's favor.
The cyberware rules for chargen are really limiting.
The combination of
1) not being able to buy better than alpha grade 'ware.
2) not being able to carry over chargen money into play.
So this makes a Sam almost forced into loading up on essence heavy purchases with the expectation of some day replacing ware with a better version later to create an essence hole. This is super inefficient! You're essentially buying your cyber twice this way and it's already hellishly expensive.
This stands out most clearly when looking at wired reflexes.
Wr3 costs 5e and 217k. The adept cost is 3.5pp. To get the Sam's cost roughly equivalent to the adept you need betaware to get wr3 down to 3.5e (at $325500).
Unfortunately this is not legal rule wise. If it were I think you'd see more sams because they could make a build with a few good upgrades and leave themselves room to grow without the awkward replacement cyber swapping nonsense. There is already a hard nuyen cap, isn't that enough to keep things roughly balanced?
Anyway would it break the game if you let sams have full cyber access at chargen? I'm curious what y'all think who have more experience.
EDIT: after looking closely at the bioware, maybe lifting the restriction only on cyber would be safer. There's a lot of awesome bioware that is prevented in chargen strictly by availability.
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There is more going on to balance things then you are first seeing.
The adept is a karma based growth, as such, his progress is always going to be slowed down by the ever increasing demand for karma to boost his skills, attributes, magic, and initiation.
Samurai, deckers, riggers are more cash dependant on advancement. They get a larger bonus and improvement by swapping out gear and cyber as they get money. While the karma they get can also improve their respective abilities.
In short. While that adept may seem more powerful at the get go, over the course of play, the sammy will catchup and pass the adept very quickly... and stay ahead until very late in the game.. (300+ karma)
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Try a High Life campaign if you want more access to stuff.
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Yeah I think you are selling the Street Sam short. I'm going to let someone else do the math on advancement, but no adept can be like a 40+ armor street Sam with a Pain editor and Platelet Factories. The best faces are always going to have tailored pheremones (+1 to 8 skills for 30k is crazy!), best hackers will have logic boosters. So far I think the designers have done a good job of making them both desirable and with seperate niches. When a grenade gets thrown in the elevator, you will wish you were a street sam!
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When a grenade gets thrown in any enclosed space, you'll wish you were elsewhere is what :-)
But yeah, I also think there are some innate differences in what street samurai and adepts do; without optimizing too much or spreading oneself too thin, a street samurai is more overt and in your face, represented by shiny chrome and obvious weapons; that's not to say they can't be stealthy, but direct action with big guns is their forte. Adepts, on the other hand, are like magicians; they can bring their entire arsenal with them by carrying their hands in their pockets, and so make much better covert action specialists. Both have the capabilities to shine both in ranged and melee combat, but the way they go about it are slightly different.
I too balked at the idea of never attaining that last rating of synaptic boosters, or some other shiny piece of gear. But with even just a little bit of optimizing a street samurai or am adept can easily throw down 16 dice on the attack, the street samurai can achive high 20s armor pools, whereas the adepts can reach high 10s dodge pools.
Are they exactly the same? Of course not. And I for one like it that way.
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With edge, initiative enhancement isn't the trump card it used to be. When comparing Sammies to Adepts, it's best to compare what each other cannot do, rather then what they overlap on. For instance, a Sammy could smuggle all kinds of weapons and gear in hidden compartments or holsters, and synthetic cyberlimbs have a conceal ability of -8, better than nearly all weapons. On the other hand, an Adept could kill spirits with their bare hands. Or they could both spec-out to use two weapon gun-fu, and acheive roughly similar results while otherwise being pretty boring.
Besides, Shadowrun isn't about four combat monsters sitting in a tavern waiting for a Johnson to give them a tribe of orks to kill.
Wait.
I guess sometimes it is.
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With edge, initiative enhancement isn't the trump card it used to be.
Y'know, I keep hearing this, and to an extent I understand it, but when you get down to it ... it just ain't true, Maynard. Or rather, it's true, but it's pretty goddamn short-sighted.
You have a maximum of 6 - 7 if you're human - Edge. Spending it means, if you'll pardon the expression, Shit Just Got Real. Some characters are, sure, gonna max this sucker out if they can, but that is still only six trump cards. If and/or when the crap really hits the fan - not just six seconds of chaos, but when you're trying to fight your way clear of the building, or there are a LOT of flesh-form insect spirits to kill, or KE or the Mafia or Yakuza or (god help you) a megacorporation is hunting you down, you need to save your skin a lot. Tossing an edge at initiative suuuuddenly looks a lot less appetizing when you have to do it 20 times, y'know?
Initiative enhancements mean You Don't Need To Blow Edge Just To Go Fast - you can spend it on other things, like saving the life of the moron who blew all his edge in the first ten seconds trying to go as fast as you ...
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Short-sighted? That's a big ol' negative, good buddy. Endurance is a virtue that you pay a price for.
Any character build has trade-offs. In this case, your Adept or Sammy is paying, say, half of their money/points on initiative enhancement if they want to get good at it. Or they could invest in a little edge (and maybe a little kamikaze or jazz) and spend the rest of their money on being twice as good at doing the rest of their job. That's a bit hyperbolic, but in my experience it rings true. After all, if you are generally more competent, you don't need to rely on luck.
Second, on a 'meta' level, your edge pool is a fluid thing that can be built back up during gameplay as you use it. When the drek hits the fan, and you're breaking back out of a corporate compound, good roleplaying and ingenuity will earn you back those points. This relies on the GM not being stingy with the points, but it is what it is.
Ultimately, I would consider buying Initiative Boosters and just relying on Edge (and accepting the risks) to be fairly balanced choices.
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Any character build has trade-offs. In this case, your Adept or Sammy is paying, say, half of their money/points on initiative enhancement if they want to get good at it. Or they could invest in a little edge (and maybe a little kamikaze or jazz) and spend the rest of their money on being twice as good at doing the rest of their job. That's a bit hyperbolic, but in my experience it rings true. After all, if you are generally more competent, you don't need to rely on luck.
The problem with that line of thinking is that with a combat based character, initiative is what makes them twice as good at their job.
A slow character with a high skill will likely get half the attacks of a high speed character. Sure he may one shot some guys, but if the GM is running composure checks right, the other character with less skill but twice as many attacks almost always does more.
In a run where the characters have done everything right, you normally won't see a difference. But if, as Wyrm was saying, the shit hits the fan and you have more than rounds of combat than edge, initiative characters seem to always pull ahead.
As for the metalevel, if your GM is handing out edge like candy because you didn't take initiative boosters, then there's no reason to have more than a 1 in edge (after all, he'll just feel sorry for you and refresh it, right?). Sure, I toss edge at players for good roleplaying, but I'm not going to toss 12 points at them in a single scene. That's not stingy.
Initiative Boosters and Edge seem like balanced choices until you have more than edge combat rounds in a row against heavy threats. Then it becomes extremely clear that the resource that never goes away is more powerful than the resource that it limited.
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Short-sighted? That's a big ol' negative, good buddy. Endurance is a virtue that you pay a price for.
Any character build has trade-offs. In this case, your Adept or Sammy is paying, say, half of their money/points on initiative enhancement if they want to get good at it. Or they could invest in a little edge (and maybe a little kamikaze or jazz) and spend the rest of their money on being twice as good at doing the rest of their job. That's a bit hyperbolic, but in my experience it rings true. After all, if you are generally more competent, you don't need to rely on luck.
Second, on a 'meta' level, your edge pool is a fluid thing that can be built back up during gameplay as you use it. When the drek hits the fan, and you're breaking back out of a corporate compound, good roleplaying and ingenuity will earn you back those points. This relies on the GM not being stingy with the points, but it is what it is.
Ultimately, I would consider buying Initiative Boosters and just relying on Edge (and accepting the risks) to be fairly balanced choices.
You amuse me. Can I keep you?
Look, I'm not disagreeing that there are trade-offs with any build; that's blatantly obvious. But what you're claiming as optimal and what actually would be optimal is clearly not the same. Let's take a look at your 6 (or 7) Edge character who spends money being 'twice as good at their job'. Let's presume that these are both 'street warrior' humans.
You're suggesting, it seems, we both spend that A Priority on Resources; I'm down with that, so 450k for each of us it is. We're both non-magical, so Magic is gonna be E for both of us. Here's where we split.
You want a high Edge - 5 or a 6 - so you're pretty much forced to be at Priority C. You might get away with D, but hey, spending more than half your chargen-ending Karma on one attribute is semi-crazy. I'm good with having a 'low' Edge, so I'll put it at D - and not have to worry about boosting it, which means my ending Karma can go towards other things that help me do my job better, like a higher skill, other attribute, or hey, contacts. Yours: C; Mine: D.
So you have either Attributes at B (20) or at D (14), while I have Attributes at B (20) or C (16). Let's say we both go for Attributes B, 'cause those suckers are hell to boost with Karma; we even choose the same Reaction and Intuition, since that's what we're talking about. That puts your Skills at D (22 skill points, with 0 for skill groups) and mine at C (28 skill points, with 2 for skill groups). So with six higher points in my skills AND two points for a skill group, already I'm better at doing my job - my character is, in point of fact, already more competent than your character.
Now, you're claiming I have to 'spend half of (my) money/points on initiative enhancement if they want to get good at it.' Well, what's 'good'? Twice normal human speed? I put down 149k - a third of my money - and I get +2 Reaction and +2d6 for my initiative Every Single Time. Sure, that Rating 3 is almost a full 1/2 - not to mention 5 full points of Essence - but this latter is more the reason why I wouldn't go there, because there's so much more fun stuff to use.
Now, compare this to a straight-out 5d6 for your Edge-rolled Initiative. You roll your 5d6 (average 17) + Reaction + Intuition; I roll my 3d6 (average 10) + Reaction + Intuition + 2 - so really, my average roll is 12. We can both add in Reaction Enhancers (you without penalty, me needing to go wireless to get the synergy), but when it comes down to it, I have enough cash and Essence left with my Wired 2 (or spend a little more, 190k, and have spent half the Essence - bioware's my preferred route anyhow) to get most of the top-of-the-line gear you're going to get - though I might have to be a little bit more selective and not get 'one of those, and one of those, and oooh, yeah, two, definitely two of those!!'
However, while you can get your 17 average a guaranteed six times in a row, I can get my average 12 ... uh, pretty much forever. And if you want to pop some Jazz or Kamikaze, and need to hit that 3 threshold every time you do to avoid that addiction, well ... you might want to read Angels (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=26.0), by our own Critias. Not the same drug, but you should get the idea.
We finally come to the 'oh, I can get my stuff refreshed'. Let's look at that, shall we?
... additionally, the gamemaster can reward players by refreshing a single point of Edge in exchange for inventive or entertaining actions in the course of a gaming session. Incidentally, that’s refreshed Edge points, not free Edge points—you can’t go higher than your maximum Edge. Luck only counts if you use it.
- Good roleplaying.
- Heroic acts of self-sacrifice.
- Achievement of important personal goals.
- Enduring a critical glitch without using a Close Call (you get a point of Edge back to balance the scales a bit; this should be used judiciously, though, so as not to always let the players off the hook when they roll a critical glitch).
- Succeeding in an important objective.
- Being particularly brave or smart.
- Pushing the storyline forward.
- Having the right skills in the right place at the right time.
- Impressing the group with humor or drama.
(Emphasis mine. All this is what used to be defined as 'personal karma rewards'; I suspect they removed this in order to help keep players in a game at a closer overall 'karmic level', but that's just me.) What you're betting on, though, is that in what used to be called 'a whirling nightmare of combat, confusion, and betrayal' your GM is going to be lenient enough, and you're going to be clever enough, to earn an Edge renewal at least once every two Turns - and, later in the combat, possibly more than once every Turn, because instead of using your Edge to push the limit, or get a second chance, etc., you're going to be burning it so you can roll those 5d6 for initiative.
In short, you are counting on your GM to be very lenient, and you to be very fantastic, with a character that may have a few more toys (and how many, exactly, are you going to be able to use at once?) and yet lower core capabilities in his skills. I ... really don't see it happening.
Sorry.
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You amuse me. Can I keep you?
Lol, sorry there good buddy. Bound in irons, I belong to another. I'm flattered.
So lets get started.
For the Edge using Samurai, who we'll call "Edge", Attributes is a priority D, not a B. With all that money, the street sam's gonna get some good cyberware with high Agility, Strength, or both, and we don't need to have good base stats for that. Plus, if we're getting super cheaty, we can start with some abysmally low stats and increase them with our 50 points of starting karma. So, we can safely say that Logic, Charisma, Strength and Agility can all start at 1 and be bought up to 2. That leaves plenty of attribute points to max out Reflexes and Intuition, giving us an 11 +1d6 to start with for initiative. In the event that we don't want to use edge, we can use drugs (if we want) for another +2d6 or so. That's plenty, and it's fine. Drugs are great because they are very dramatic. What, do you want to live forever?
With all our ¥450000 money, we're free to take cyberarms and legs with Agility 6, plus armor and Agility enhancers. If we want Strength for melee weapons, we can get that too or just buy a monowhip. We are living dangerously after all. So, Edge's Agility for Firearms, Melee and Movement is a 9, Agility for Gymnastics is mostly an 8, and we can keep a cyberarm Gyromount in both arms and have an extra 8 points of Armor with 4 extra health boxes. This is gonna cost us 4 essence and around 250,000¥ with a shock hand and monowhip built in for extra fun. Well, we can stop there and sink the rest of our nuyen into increased reflexes if we want - the bioware version would take up another point of essence and we'd be pretty much done. I'm assuming everyone takes a smartlink at this point as well.
Or we could take that money and spend it in a few different ways. First option, we switch our priorities from A Money and B skills to A skills and B money. This leaves us with a little extra cash but a lot of extra skills. Second option, we can buy a Cyberdeck, and cross-class, which can be fun. Third, we can grab a Control Rig and strap guns on a roadmaster. Fourth, we can focus on being better samurai - Reflex Recorders for our favorite skills, Ultrasound 6 headwear, Enhanced Articulation, Platelet Factories, Skillwires and Skilljacks, additional Strength and Hydraulic Jacks (rating 6) in our legs, and buying things in alpha so that we can spare some essence for upgrades, and purchase all the guns and mundane equipment we'll ever want.
Now, we're human and our C priority gives us 7 edge. Your samurai still has a 5 edge if they're human, which is fine. We could have a D priority for edge and still not need reaction enhancement. Regardless, we're working with 7, so that's 7 chances to go first and 7 extra dice to roll when we really need to. Add that to our generous B or A priority skills and we're pretty good at doing a variety of things, even with some low stats. Compare that to your priority C with low edge. Or don't, we both know that our combat skills will be maxed anyway. We can safely spend edge to go first in four rounds of combat per run, with an average of 28.5 initiative, almost guaranteeing 3 actions and the first action of the combat. This should be enough of a head start that we don't need to go first in the second combat turn (because our opponents should be dead). The most prolonged combat I've seen in this edition lasted 3 combat turns, and the fight was between a Sammy tank versus an adept ninja with drone support. The most combats I've seen in one run amounted to 3, and they were all very one-sided favoring the runners.
As for edge recovery, any day you can get a hot meal and 8 hours of sleep, you can recover edge, at a minimum. Between runs you should be fully recovered. So, let's say you run out of your 7 edge for the run, and your GM isn't letting you recover. What do you do? You take drugs, of course! Lets use Jazz, not Kamikaze. If you take one dose of Jazz on one run, you will make an addiction test in three weeks. If you don't have to take Jazz again (in what amounts to three more runs with 1/week, or between runs with 1/month), then your addiction threshold drops to 0 at the third week when you would need to roll - you succeed automatically. With Kamikaze, you make the same test after two weeks, which drops the threshold to 1. Kamikaze is more beneficial in combat, but a lot of the bonus is redundant with your cyberware anyway so we prefer Jazz or Cram. We only use drugs when we absolutely have to, anyway, which shouldn't be every run or every other run. YMMV.
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TL;DR:
As long as you have 7 edge and you are judicious in your application, you can pretty much get away with just using Edge for all your combats. You might run out, but not likely in any one run.
And that's my synopsis. CAN you rely on Edge, or Drugs alone for better initiative? Yes, you can. Do you run a risk doing so? You bet! But is your character viable? Absolutely. The big question - would you want to? Well, that's up to you. I've built characters that do, and they work fine for my party.
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.... aaaand apparently you completely failed to face the points being made - that two characters created with essentially the same build, one with reflex enhancements and the other without, in a high-action run the one who relies on Edge to get a big initiative is going to burn out pretty damn fast - and be stuck with his 1d6 unless he goes and shoots up. And yeah, all my characters want to get out of it alive, compared to shuddering spastically in an alleyway, killing other junkies for a hit, his cybernetic limbs no longer under his complete control.
Anyhow. You go have fun; I think it's clear we have different play styles, so I guess that's where the difference lies. Enjoy.
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I've read your piece. You are wrong and your are rude. It's an unflattering combination.
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Ran out of Edge on my default 5-Edge Street Sam at the very end of Humanitarian Aid. 7 Edge would have been enough to be a tough threat even into the last fight, would have been able to put a nice round into the jerkweed doc.
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I've read your piece. You are wrong and your are rude. It's an unflattering combination.
That's called avoidance. You ignored the point he made, acted like it didn't exist, and now are deflecting by attacking character instead of actually addressing the point.
Your dismissal of edge being inferior is linked to your premise of "You might run out, but not likely in any one run."
That really only holds up in my experience if A.) everything goes as planned, B.) your GM tosses you at things far below what you're capable of handling, or C.) your GM doesn't use tactics for the enemy.
The moment things don't go as planned and you're up against something that's actually, you know, a competent threat, it goes out the window. In other words, the moment things aren't, to use your words, "very one-sided favoring the runners."
You know like, to use Wyrm's examples, "when you're trying to fight your way clear of the building, or there are a LOT of flesh-form insect spirits to kill, or KE or the Mafia or Yakuza or (god help you) a megacorporation is hunting you down, you need to save your skin a lot."
I don't think I've ever seen any of those situations last a measly 9 seconds with actual competent opponents being run intelligently. But as Wyrm stated, it's quite clear that, "we have different play styles, so I guess that's where the difference lies."
I guess that was far too rude, but I can attest, it is clearly not wrong. In several of those cases, it's easily possible to have more than seven combats in a run, much less seven combat turns.
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Actually, I guess I really did fail to read your entire post there, JimmyCrisis, so I do apologize. The differences between our characters' concepts - which I initially thought of as being built for 'all other things being as equal as possible' - are very radically different, what with the initial 1s in attributes and things like that. So yes, I apologize. Enjoy your game.
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To Wyrm Ouroboros, thank you. Please forgive my temper, I'm a bit of a hothead and this medium conveys slights where perhaps none are intended.
I really just want to get the idea across to other people that there are more ways to play the game - more interesting character ideas that by the nature of the mechanics tell a story that wouldn't otherwise be told. That's why I push the point - I want others reading this to be open and accepting of new ideas and willing to take risks for the sake of fun, adventure and roleplaying.
To Wells, I don't value the opinions of trolls. I argue for the sake of coming to an understanding, not because I enjoy the exercise.
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That's amusing.
Your point of view is that Edge and Initiative Boosters are "fairly balanced." They aren't. They're fairly balanced in optimal situations for the runner. Balance and optimization have nothing to do with the ways to play the game. You can play any character the rules can make. Many people enjoy playing unoptimized characters that are built to reflect their story rather than the max DP they can toss or the best gear they can cram in.
Neither of us said that using edge instead of Initiative Boosters is an invalid way to play. We pointed out that they are not balanced choices. Saying they are, and failing to address the actual risk that character would face just leads people to make uninformed decisions rather than your supposed goal of opening up other ideas. Not addressing the issue of your effectiveness equaling a number of combat rounds equal to your edge is, as Wyrm said, "short sighted." All you've done is shown one side of the equation (optimal runs where things go smooth), but you've ignored the other side of the equation (where things don't go smooth) and then flat out stated that pointing out that side of the equation is wrong and rude.
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I think its worth pointing out that Reaction enhancers 3 is at least as good as one level of synaptic boosters (syn boosters have on average 1.5 more initiative, but two less dodge dice). I've seen lots of people with synaptic boosters one, and no one seems to say that they are weak. These are also characters that don't have max edge. So my sense is that reaction enhancers 3 is a valid option, particularly on a tanky street sam or one with low cash (troll C for example, which is a more interesting option these days I think).
Saying that, I think wired reflexes 1 and reaction enhancers 3 is probably the optimal choice at character creation. That or be an adept.
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Minor note: You mean Used Reaction Enhancers 3, yes?
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Re: Michael - Yup!
I also meant Metatype A troll, Resources C as being a good choice for used reaction enchanters 3
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I skipped them and got them after chargen with my Resources C, since I went +3 Agi, +4+4 soak dice, instead. :)
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4+ 4+ soak dice, is that used bone density and orthoskin?
I noticed the other day that you can fit used muscle augmentation 3, used reaction enhancers 3, and aluminum bone lacing in on resources c. Pretty awesome with the +armor options in Run and Gun. Great way to get a agility 8, strength 12 troll with 14 DV punching :)
Actually if you take used cyberware, its pretty amazing what you can take on resources c.
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Correct. And yes, that also goes nicely. How do you get Agi 8 though? MA only gives Strength. You'd require Replacement.
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My bad, thats what I meant, used muscle replacement 3. Its 3.5 essence, but you can fit it in fine.
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Wells, I just don't read your posts anymore.
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You've posted 36 times, Jimmy, jumped all over my ass over a slight perceived purely on your own, but when someone calls you out for being willingly blind, you snip and declare that you ignore them???
I apologized for not reading your post completely - not because I thought you made a good point, but because your character is a destructobot that any - every - character of mine could eliminate in two heartbeats and a quarter-second of thought, and because of your post, I felt like the point you were making was de facto completely negated - in part because the character hasn't a logical brain in their head, few knowledge skills on that point, and is going to be the victim of every schmoozer or brain out there. It wasn't an apology because you were right - just for not reading your post. But because I didn't want to inflame the issue, I stayed silent, and sure enough, someone else pointed out your glaring errors - to which you reply with ... that.
Christ, boy, if you can't show respect, at least show some goddamn courtesy.
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I think its worth pointing out that Reaction enhancers 3 is at least as good as one level of synaptic boosters (syn boosters have on average 1.5 more initiative, but two less dodge dice). I've seen lots of people with synaptic boosters one, and no one seems to say that they are weak. These are also characters that don't have max edge. So my sense is that reaction enhancers 3 is a valid option, particularly on a tanky street sam or one with low cash (troll C for example, which is a more interesting option these days I think).
Saying that, I think wired reflexes 1 and reaction enhancers 3 is probably the optimal choice at character creation. That or be an adept.
I don't see WR and RE taken together often. Most players don't like the wireless requirement that cropped up in 5E. Part of it is common sense, part of it is irritation that they can't just have a system from 2070 where they worked fine together without the matrix access.
That said, used RE 3 is really common on starting street sams that I see. Especially if the player is wanting to go for Synaptic Boosters but just doesn't have the cash at creation. Winds up being about 10k per point of Reaction, so it's not that big of a waste.
Then again, I rarely see people go above C for resources unless they're playing a Decker or Rigger. Even most of the Sams I see just grab what they have to have to compete since they know they'll be stripping it out with how cheap the upper grades are now. If you're going with used ware at creation you can cram in a ton of stuff with a 140k.
My bad, thats what I meant, used muscle replacement 3. Its 3.5 essence, but you can fit it in fine.
Used is times 1.25 essence. MR 3 would be 3.75.
You can still cram it all in easily though if one of them isn't used:
-Used MR 3 (3.75 essence, 56.25k)
-Used RE 3 (1.125, 29.25k)
-Aluminum Bone Lacing (1, 18,000)
Total (5.875, 103.5)
Still got 36.5k to play with too.
I think mine went with:
-Used RE 3 (1.125, 29.25k)
-Used MT 3 (.75, 72k)
-Used BD 4 (1.5, 15k)
-Used OS 4 (1.25, 18k)
-Used Datajack (.125, 750)
Total (4.75 ,135k)
Only had 5k to play with, but most of his other wants were over the avail limits anyway.
Wells, I just don't read your posts anymore.
So, you don't read my posts, just respond to them, yet I'm the one trolling? Is it still April 1st?
I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.
Uhm...you realize you didn't quote me, right?
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I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.
Uhm...you realize you didn't quote me, right?
That's okay, Wells - I think he got stuck on the 'W' and had maybe just read your post or something.
Christ, boy, if you can't show respect, at least show some goddamn courtesy.
I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.
ZeConster, I have a shockingly high signal-to-noise posting ratio; a near-encyclopaediac knowledge of the game's background; some pretty great knowledge of 1-3e game technicals; a fine grasp of the game's concept-for-play as well as its concepts-for-story; etc. etc. As the man said, it ain't braggin' if it's the facts, and those are the facts. I am almost always courteous at the very least, reserving my scorn for the ideas of people as compared to the people themselves; that's called courtesy. I don't say to them 'oh, I don't even read your posts any more', because if I really did, I wouldn't be responding to them; JimmyCrisis saying that is him being offensive with no reason besides to be offensive, not unlike his 'you are wrong and you are rude.' (I may have been condescending, but I doubt that highly, and I was certainly and by no means rude. Given what I had to work with, though ... It's tough to look at people who think one attribute is the be-all end-all and rely upon it exclusively, handicapping themselves in a myriad of other ways, and not try to show them that they're being myopic.)
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I have literally never seen someone refuse to get Wired Reflexes and Reflex Boosters together because of the SCAAAAARY WIRELESS bonuses. Indeed, the only time I've seen someone only take WR was my own decker, because I was crunched for cash and just wanted to ensure a second IP. Nor have I frankly seen anyone freak out in game over those oh so terrifying enemy deckers. As far as I can tell it's purely a forums phenomenon.
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I have literally never seen someone refuse to get Wired Reflexes and Reflex Boosters together because of the SCAAAAARY WIRELESS bonuses. Indeed, the only time I've seen someone only take WR was my own decker, because I was crunched for cash and just wanted to ensure a second IP. Nor have I frankly seen anyone freak out in game over those oh so terrifying enemy deckers. As far as I can tell it's purely a forums phenomenon.
There are other forums out there full of folks who have never played 5e but can tell you, at great length, the terrible impact of wireless bonuses and limits. :) 5e is powerful stuff indeed.
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I find this laughable coming from you, Wells. If you want respect or courtesy, try showing some to others for a change.
Uhm...you realize you didn't quote me, right?
That's okay, Wells - I think he got stuck on the 'W' and had maybe just read your post or something.
My bad, thought it was a post by Wells - don't know you well enough to say the same thing to you that I would to him for a post like that. Post removed.
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My bad, thats what I meant, used muscle replacement 3. Its 3.5 essence, but you can fit it in fine.
Used is times 1.25 essence. MR 3 would be 3.75.
You can still cram it all in easily though if one of them isn't used:
-Used MR 3 (3.75 essence, 56.25k)
-Used RE 3 (1.125, 29.25k)
-Aluminum Bone Lacing (1, 18,000)
Total (5.875, 103.5)
Still got 36.5k to play with too.
Yeah, thats the exact build that I was talking about. I really should go back and look at the character sheet instead of writing about things from memory. ;)
Anyways, as far as resources C, it seems that particularly with Run and Gun out there are lots more interesting reasons to go resources C. In addition to the various troll builds discussed above (which really benefit from martial arts and +armor), resources C seems like the way to go if you want to make a bioware adept (which again is better with martial arts). Also you can make some really cool elf sniper/face/infiltrator/driver characters if you go skills A, Attributes B, Resources C. You have enough to pick up Used Muscle toner 3, WR 1, and Used Reaction Enhancers 3. Or you can switch out Muscle toner for used Tailored Pheromones 3. Interesting options both with cash to spare.
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Wyrm, you most certainly are being rude. What do you think condescension is? Oh, how dare I post on the forums for a game I've been playing for fifteen years? Who is this guy, anyway?
I don't read Wells posts because he, like you, he likes to be condescending and hyperbolic. I guarantee that if we had this discussion in person neither of you two have the balls to look me in the eye after you treat me this way. I don't back down from bullies, and that's just what you are doing. Bullying me because I won't submit and stroke your egos.
Your argument is simply a discounting of my opinion. In my actual experience, I have not needed more than 7 edge in any run. For one, Shadowrun is a role playing game, not a videogame. A combat that takes seven combat turns where all seven of those turns are important enough to spend edge on to go first would take all day to play. You have only adressed that with hyperbole. That's why I say you are wrong. I chose not to go into detail because you were rude as well, and I'm not here to spend my free time chatting with inconsiderate jerks.
If you like to play combat all day, by all means go ahead. Its an entirely valid way to play the game. After all there is no wrong way to have fun. I would not play that character in that game, but that by no means makes that a weak character, simply inappropriate for that game and GM.
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Having said that, I will not continue this discussion. If you feel you have anything further to hash out with me, PM me. We don't need to drag this out in public any longer.
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Your argument is simply a discounting of my opinion. In my actual experience, I have not needed more than 7 edge in any run. For one, Shadowrun is a role playing game, not a videogame. A combat that takes seven combat turns where all seven of those turns are important enough to spend edge on to go first would take all day to play. You have only adressed that with hyperbole. That's why I say you are wrong. I chose not to go into detail because you were rude as well, and I'm not here to spend my free time chatting with inconsiderate jerks.
Yeah, no. A simple discounting would be more like saying.
You are wrong, that is all. It would probably read more like:
I've read your piece. You are wrong
Oh wait, that was you, not him.
What he did was explain exactly why your opinion was flawed. How does 7 combat turns manage to take a whole day to play? (wait, aren't I the one that's supposed to hyperbolic with my arguments? All day isn't an exaggeration is it?) I can honestly say that at least half my runs have more combat than seven rounds. I've never spent longer than two hours on combat in a session.
Things not going smooth, insect hives, botched runs turning into the reverse of the raid as runners fight tooth and nail to escape, etc. are not hyperbole. There is no exaggeration there. These are things that happen in Shadowrun. I don't see how someone can play the game for fifteen years and not know about having to dive into the hive in Queen Euphoria, the trials of escaping the Renraku Arcology during the shutdown, or just the typical double-cross that is standard to the setting and puts the players in a positions where the combat isn't "one-sided in their favor." You know, the classics.
Your argument has literally been "I have never needed more than 7 edge in any run", so it shouldn't ever happen. However, you also said "the most combats I've seen in one run amounted to 3" and "they were all very one-sided favoring the runners."
I fail to see how pointing out that when either of those situations fails it puts your argument on its head is an exaggeration, maybe you could elaborate. A combat that would take a prepared group of runners a single round can easily last six to seven if they're unprepared and the attackers are prepared (like when the Yakuza successfully infiltrate the hideout in Mercurial for example).
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Was that wall of text for me? I wouldn't know because I didn't read it.
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And yet your post addressed the points just as well as all your past ones have. Classic avoidance again, because you can't can't counterpoint.
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Huh? That's weird, it's like you're still bashing me in public despite the fact that I asked you to move it to private chat. Odd.
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That's not a bash, it's a statement of fact. You have not addressed the flaws a single time. Instead, you simply claim they don't exist because the situations for them to exist rely on exaggerations (even though the examples given pretty much come straight out of classic Shadowrun modules, no exaggeration needed). However, it's quite clear that you do still read my posts.
You claimed you wanted to put forth valid ideas for other players. You won't respond to any flaws in your ideas. How does that help other players? How does it help other players if you'll only address them hidden away in private? It doesn't. No one benefits from that. So yes, I will point out that there are blatant flaws to the "balanced choice" you proposed that still have not been addressed when you decide to bow out of the conversation. They'll be there for those new players reading through to see and reflect on when making choices.
Am I going to examine your last post in addition. Yes. For the same reason. So that the player can just as easily discount it for the flaws it holds. Same concept. They can't exactly do that if it's tucked away in private.
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Wells, go ahead and drop it. For all his claims of fair-mindedness and 'take it to private messages', he's clearly and blatantly trolling - or at least he sure as hell is actively avoiding all of the 'short-sightedness' points that have been repeatedly made. I did go back and I find it interesting that all of the things that he's accusing me of doing are things that either he did first, or he's the only one who did - patronizing (did first), hyperbole (only did), out-and-out rude (only did), attempted bullying (only did), argument being only 'my opinion is different' with no examples (only did) ... so do what I just did - added him to Falconer and shadowjack in my amazingly short list of 'people to totally ignore'.
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I don't always agree with Wyrm and Wells, but Jimmy - you're being petulant. I just wanted to throw this out in public so that Wells and Wyrm have a public record of my support for them. :)
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Hmm - interesting mental exercise. What If ... Edge and Maximum Edge was reduced by implanted 'ware the same way Magic and Resonance are? You can be wired, or you can be lucky, but you can't be both ...
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I don't always agree with Wyrm and Wells, but Jimmy - you're being petulant. I just wanted to throw this out in public so that Wells and Wyrm have a public record of my support for them. :)
Very well, I realize I probably am. Well, petulant is the wrong word; curt, aggressive, snarky or boorish all work. I apologize; I wasn't adding anything to the discussion.
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Hmm - interesting mental exercise. What If ... Edge and Maximum Edge was reduced by implanted 'ware the same way Magic and Resonance are? You can be wired, or you can be lucky, but you can't be both ...
Not sure what that'd accomplish other then severely punishing everyone but wizards and adepts for no real reason :-\
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So . . . this may be way late tot he game, but I notice nobody seemed to bring up the good advancement avenues for Adepts through Qi Foci and Weapon Foci.
For example, you pointed out the effective cost difference between a Sammy with WR 2, and an Adept with Improved Reflexes 3. Keep in mind, with a Qi Focus 4 (Improved Reflexes), you only need to spend 2.5 Power Points to get IR 3. Add to that the dicepool differences - Both could max out Blades with a specialization and high agility for a base pool of 14/15. The Sammy could boost that with Muscle Replacement or Muscle Toner for the agility, but the Adept could do the same with a slight essence hit and money for the Toner or with Improved Physical Attribute; they can also augment their Skill with powerpoints, then add bonus die from a Weapon Focus. For melee combat, seems like they're streets ahead. Purchasing/bonding cost for Qi Foci are surprisingly decent, too.
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So . . . this may be way late tot he game, but I notice nobody seemed to bring up the good advancement avenues for Adepts through Qi Foci and Weapon Foci.
For example, you pointed out the effective cost difference between a Sammy with WR 2, and an Adept with Improved Reflexes 3. Keep in mind, with a Qi Focus 4 (Improved Reflexes), you only need to spend 2.5 Power Points to get IR 3. Add to that the dicepool differences - Both could max out Blades with a specialization and high agility for a base pool of 14/15. The Sammy could boost that with Muscle Replacement or Muscle Toner for the agility, but the Adept could do the same with a slight essence hit and money for the Toner or with Improved Physical Attribute; they can also augment their Skill with powerpoints, then add bonus die from a Weapon Focus. For melee combat, seems like they're streets ahead. Purchasing/bonding cost for Qi Foci are surprisingly decent, too.
All things being equal, if you're looking to get near max attributes for a combat stat, it's easy enough with cyberarms. The street sammy can purchase a metatype appropriate cyberarm to do all their combat work with their racial max AGI and STR, with a +3 modification to each. The street sammy may also purchase a reflex recorder for a skill point boost. Those added together can give pretty high dice pools... my elf Street Sam has 17 dice for using a monowhip, which would be 19 dice if exotic weapons could specialize (too bad they can't). But you're right about the Sammy lacking in initiative enhancement. It's hard to beat the Adept for that, but then again it's a lot easier for a Sam to get better armor and just soak the attacks. Bone Lacing + Orthoskin + Cyberlimb armor stacks pretty fast.
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I see a lot of people use Qi Focus on Improved Reflexes and it seems like the biggest waste. The big draw of Qi Foci is that you can change them. You want to use Qi Foci for stuff like Light Body or Kinesics or other more "situational" powers.
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I see a lot of people use Qi Focus on Improved Reflexes and it seems like the biggest waste. The big draw of Qi Foci is that you can change them. You want to use Qi Foci for stuff like Light Body or Kinesics or other more "situational" powers.
That really depends on the build.... the biggest thing to remember is that Qi foci are situational and can be disrupted, so relying on them for an important stat (like improved initiative) can be a huge hinderance...
I agree that they work best with "lighter" abilities that you can buff... but using them with improved reflexes is viable. .. if you plan for the few times that they can be disrupted. ..
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Very good points. I generally support the idea that PP should be spent for things that you reliably need, and would suck to have shut off; Astral Perception, Improved Reflexes, Killing Hands, Combat Sense/Mystic Armor, etc. Having some Qi Foci to add levels to those is good, as is having situational 'infiltration', 'ranged combat', etc. sets.
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Since I'm feeling a bit generous today, I'm going to just put a general warning to keep inflammatory language to a minimum in these discussions. This is meant for everyone, but I'm looking at three in particular (and you know who you are).