Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: OneofSorrow on <04-21-14/2216:43>
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Friend and I were debating and wondering is it possible to wear a ballistic mask and a helmet at the same time. I've quoted him that alot of military and paramilitary people can wear them at the same time but wanted to get the opinion of people on the forum.
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Good question.
I've never seen anyone in the military wear a ballistic mask and helmet at the same time. Actually I have never seen anyone wear a ballistic mask unless you count door gunners, but that doesn't offer much protection. Initially I would be inclined to say no.
However after thinking about it, I would say sure. I mean the reason people don't wear ballistic masks is because they obscure vision, a problem which you think could be solved by technology. Your +armor is limited by strength, so I wouldn't really care.
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Well what I and my partner in crime were thinking was make it so that the helmet and the ballistic mask connect to one another so that they lock into place.
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I mean from a realism perspective, it wouldn't happen in real life. But like I said, by the 2070s I could see them figuring it out.
I don't think its a issue of balance because +armor is tied to strength and I don't have any problem with rewarding someone with high strength.
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http://www.interamer.com/ballisticfacemaskhalf.aspx
Ballistic face masks that can be worn with helmets already exist. So, I don't see why combining them in Shadowrun would be a problem.
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Well what I and my partner in crime were thinking was make it so that the helmet and the ballistic mask connect to one another so that they lock into place.
If it's for cool factor or flavor reasons, you could just have a full helmet that looked however you want.
Technically speaking I'm pretty sure the helmets are intended to be full-head helmets, so you couldn't wear one with a mask, but since flavor-wise they can look like anything and balance-wise you won't lose anything if you just get some SecureTech PPP and make up the difference.
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I mean from a realism perspective, it wouldn't happen in real life.
Fact of the matter is that it does; some ballistic masks are designed for this, even.
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Both a SWAT helmet and a fully sealed helmet are +3 armor and 6 or 8 capacity, so from a balance perspective, having them stack to +4 armor/14 capacity is probably too strong. The picture of the Riot Gear helmet makes it pretty clear that it also covers the face.
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Both a SWAT helmet and a fully sealed helmet are +3 armor and 6 or 8 capacity, so from a balance perspective, having them stack to +4 armor/14 capacity is probably too strong. The picture of the Riot Gear helmet makes it pretty clear that it also covers the face.
It's not just a matter of where it covers, though, but of what it covers it with. And requiring two pieces of gear and an extra point of Strength does limit this some, so some extra benefit isn't a bad thing.
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I'd disallow it on the grounds that a Full Helmet is arguably more protective (as in, can take a chemical seal), so stacking two +2 headware items is a no-go for me due to item balance reasons.
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I'd disallow it on the grounds that a Full Helmet is arguably more protective (as in, can take a chemical seal), so stacking two +2 headware items is a no-go for me due to item balance reasons.
Of course, the fact that it takes a chemical seal helps with the balance. And frankly, stacking is probably the only thing that would keep the Ballistic Mask from just out and out replacing the standard helmet - they're basically identical, but the mask keeps people from seeing you face.
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Yep; cost effectiveness of a Ballistic Mask + regular Helmet (non-Full version) is just too good.
Cannot take Chemical Seal:
Ballistic Mask (+2 AV, 8 Capacity, Avail 6, 150¥)
Urban Explorer Helmet (+2 AV, 6 Capacity, Avail -, 100¥); regular helmet is Avail 2 for some reason
Can take Chemical Seal:
Full Helmet (from core; +3 AV, 6 Capacity, Avail -, 500¥); availability is weird, maybe it has to be bought with the suit?
Hardned Mil-Spec Battle Helmet (from R&G; +3 AV, Capacity 8, Avail 8F, 10,000¥)
Allowing the helmet to stack with the ballistic mask makes it too good of a combo for a measly 250¥; a whopping 14 Capacity with low avail and low price for +4 AV is hardly game breaking, but I think it does mess up the balance of the Full Helmet, which at that point only has the Chemical Seal option (costing 6000¥ for the seal and at least another 2000¥ for the Full Body Armor, I might add) going for it.
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Helmet give +2 armor
Full helmet give +3 armor
Give helmet with face mask +3 armor ;)
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Allowing the helmet to stack with the ballistic mask makes it too good of a combo for a measly 250¥; a whopping 14 Capacity with low avail and low price for +4 AV is hardly game breaking, but I think it does mess up the balance of the Full Helmet, which at that point only has the Chemical Seal option (costing 6000¥ for the seal and at least another 2000¥ for the Full Body Armor, I might add) going for it.
Yes, but the chemseal is at the "if you didn't have this, you'd be dead now" level of benefit.
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RHat
Not really; toxins are rarely that deadly, unless the mooks are throwing around Seven7 as if it was candy...
Besides, it comes with a minimum investment of 8000¥.
And Xenon; you're free to houserule that option, of course.
I prefer to give the users a more polarized choice. At my table, you either take the helmet, the ballistic mask, OR the full helmet (or one of it's mil-spec/security variants); no cherry picking multiple items and gaining all or most benefits.
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RHat
Not really; toxins are rarely that deadly, unless the mooks are throwing around Seven7 as if it was candy...
Gasses can very easily be deployed by other means.
And if you have to choose between the mask and the standard helmet, you would NEVER choose the standard helmet - the mask is Just Better. Not really a choice to be made, and that's a bad thing.
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RHat
Not really; toxins are rarely that deadly, unless the mooks are throwing around Seven7 as if it was candy...
Besides, it comes with a minimum investment of 8000¥.
And Xenon; you're free to houserule that option, of course.
I prefer to give the users a more polarized choice. At my table, you either take the helmet, the ballistic mask, OR the full helmet (or one of it's mil-spec/security variants); no cherry picking multiple items and gaining all or most benefits.
Yeah, as a GM I want my players to make meaningful choices, not just take d) all of the above.
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I happen to wear a ballistic mask and helmet quite often when I go Airsofting. Granted, neither of them are on the level of heavy military armor made in 2075. But still.. wearing just a helmet leaves my eyes and face open to getting shot. Wearing just the face mask, leaves the rest of my head open to getting shot.
Now someone brings the full helmet is only a +3.
Full body armor is only a 15 armor value
Sleeping Tiger is 13.
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Apples and oranges, Trisk.
Why do modern day soldiers wear a helmet? They're certainly not bullet proof, even against small caliber rounds. Kevlar helmets are "bullet resistant", meaning they might protect your noggin' from a stray round or a ricochet, and they will protect you from a lot of fragmentation-based weaponry.
Airsoft is, as you say, not even comparable to military grade armor, which is why I'm loathe to allow a ballistic mask to stack with a helmet such as the commercially available (availability rating of -) Urban Explorer Helmet.
Your comparison of Full Body Armor and the Sleeping Tiger armor does not hold up when you use it as a subsequent comparison to the issue of Ballistic Mask+Helmet vs Full Helmet. Both Full Body Armor and Sleeping Tiger are high-end grade armor (evidenced by high cost and/or availability), whereas Ballistic Masks and Helmets are low-end items.
Comparing like for like is the only viable option as I see it.
Bottom line; this is up to the GM, because I certainly can't find any rules in the book preventing a player from putting on two pieces of headware.
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Why do modern day soldiers wear a helmet? They're certainly not bullet proof, even against small caliber rounds. Kevlar helmets are "bullet resistant", meaning they might protect your noggin' from a stray round or a ricochet, and they will protect you from a lot of fragmentation-based weaponry.
IIRC, they're not even bullet-resistant. From what I remember, last few tests of kevlar helmets using 9mm pistols had the pistol penetrate every time. Kevlar helmets are, if I am remembering my information correctly, actually intended to protect against glancing blows and land mines or grenades (a soldier is supposed to drop to the ground with their helmet facing towards the mine/grenade).
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Why do modern day soldiers wear a helmet? They're certainly not bullet proof, even against small caliber rounds. Kevlar helmets are "bullet resistant", meaning they might protect your noggin' from a stray round or a ricochet, and they will protect you from a lot of fragmentation-based weaponry.
IIRC, they're not even bullet-resistant. From what I remember, last few tests of kevlar helmets using 9mm pistols had the pistol penetrate every time. Kevlar helmets are, if I am remembering my information correctly, actually intended to protect against glancing blows and land mines or grenades (a soldier is supposed to drop to the ground with their helmet facing towards the mine/grenade).
Back in the day....(re: 1990s) wearing a PASGT sucked. It varied quite a bit, but many operators wore bicycle helmets. The idea wasn't to avoid getting shot in the head (helmets don't really help with that), the idea was to not bump your head running into a room or during a rough landing. The helmets nowadays are a better middle ground, but the general idea remains the same. Bumps and lacerations? Sure. Square on penetration? No.
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During my service, I wore one of those snowboarding/mountain climbing safety helmets quite often; Kincaid, you think wearing a PASGT sucked while walking, try wearing one while skydiving :D
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And Xenon; you're free to houserule that option, of course.
At my table we don't have ballistic masks to begin with ;)
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Martin, you have my apology; I just reread your post and noticed you addressed everything I said. I should have read your post more carefully the first time.
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IIRC, they're not even bullet-resistant. From what I remember, last few tests of kevlar helmets using 9mm pistols had the pistol penetrate every time. Kevlar helmets are, if I am remembering my information correctly, actually intended to protect against glancing blows and land mines or grenades (a soldier is supposed to drop to the ground with their helmet facing towards the mine/grenade).
I don't know much about the older helmets, but the ACH that started being fielded about eight years ago is tested at IIIA and can reliably stop the vast majority of 9mm rounds and even tested favorably against some magnum loads. Getting hit still causes damage (the energy will often cause neck injury for example), but it's much better against penetration than previous helmets.
IIIA armor is useless against rifle rounds (.22 LR won't penetrate, but .17 HMR often will as will any military rifle round) and specific handgun rounds ( 5.7 can reliably penetrate with the right loads, .50 GI and AE zip right through, .500 S&W might as well be rifle round for all the protection offered). I get to shoot at old vests pretty often (our range owner gets a lot of used vests for us to test shoot at, he's even gotten a damaged MSA version of the ACH before), and 9mm rounds rarely penetrate unless you've already damaged the area. One of our CCW Instructors uses them to teach people about calibers.
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Kincaid, you think wearing a PASGT sucked while walking, try wearing one while skydiving :D
I didn't mind wearing the helmet on jumps. Now, doing the full-equipment bull shit sucked, waddling around. Even worse when you had to do it with the rifle strapped on.
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Really, JackVII? You're a better man than I in that case then, or at least a better mold; I hated those old frakkin' kevlar cans, they never sat right on my head and kept sliding down in the front, and they always seemed to get in the way of some damned thing or another. I also thought they were pretty heavy for a helmet, but I joined with a background in civilian skydiving.
Once we deployed in '02, though, we rarely used them except for training and on base in-country, though; since I was ISTAR I swapped mine (it did not pass-go, heh) for a civilian version skydiver helmet (Gemtex or something like that), at least for the drops that didn't require oxygen.
My absolute worst experience with the pass-get was during a training jump where the strap from my rifle soft case got caught on the chinstrap of the helmet; that was an... interesting... landing for sure.
Wells
You go right ahead and trust your noggin' to a helmet when facing small-arms fire, be my guest...
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IMO, the only reason to stack a ballistic mask and a helmet is for the extra capacity. That said, it sounds like an attempt to cheeseball the system, so I'd make the setup identical to a full helmet, with the same capacity, armor bonus, and cost.
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Gasses can very easily be deployed by other means.
"MUNGO! DEAR GHOST!!! WHAT DID YOU EAT???"