Shadowrun
Off-topic => General Gaming => Topic started by: tasti man LH on <04-22-14/2134:55>
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So I recently took a look at the wiki pages of World of Darkness, both Classic and New. At first I was overall kind of "meh" to the game since I always never liked supernatural horror. But, after reading through the fluff, I was very intrigued by what I saw with the various different interpretations of classic supernatural creatures (Promethean, both Demon lines) even though there were a couple I thought was a little bit weird (Werewolf and the whole "part man, part wolf, and part spirit" and being guardians of the spirit world, Changeling with being humans mutated into faerie creatures), I was still nevertheless intrigued. While not enough of start a game, enough to start thinking about integrating aspects of WoD into my Shadowrun campaign.
That said, I keep hearing about how while cWoD is widely praised, hat nWoD is universally reviled by the old-school fans, some going as far as saying nWoD missed the point of what cWoD was all about.
However, there's apparently been a turnabout with the release of 20th anniversary versions of cWoD rule books with updated rules, and the cWoD more or less being revived because of it, and that the nWoD books are being a little more well-received.
So is the above assessment of an outsider looking in true? Are things better or worse when nWoD was initially released? How are things?
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In general, whenever I see nWoD brought up, it's used as an example of how a simpler rules system is not better. Never as an example of a good game. Even since cWoD was re-released.
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As a big fan of the World of Darkness, and someone who actually had some play groups sever ties over the issue, allow me to share what little "insight" I have:
The only legitimate complaint I have ever heard against the nWoD is that there is no default setting material to use so the game feels less substantial when compared to the setting-driven cWoD products.
...and that complaint has actually started to be something that is getting addressed by the newest of the nWoD game lines with chronicle books.
The mechanics being simpler has next to nothing to do with it, and numerous groups (mine included) use the nWoD mechanics and the cWoD setting - White Wolf even made a series of "translation guides" to help people do that exact thing, before realizing that they could actually have both a revitalized cWoD and the nWoD in production at the same time thanks to digital sales and print on demand.
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Yeah, on Drivethru I took a peek at that chronicle on the God Machine and it being a major tie-in for Demon: The Descent and that, while I think the whole "oppressed by a faceless machine" theme is too ham-fisted for my liking, it's overall a cool re-interpretation of the mythos surrounding Heaven and Hell and angels and demons.
Like I said, I currently have no plans to run a game, but am interested enough to check out the books.
In general, whenever I see nWoD brought up, it's used as an example of how a simpler rules system is not better. Never as an example of a good game. Even since cWoD was re-released.
...what, is it a case of being too simplistic because the system doesn't have that complexity where it's needed?
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I too have some familiarity with both cWoD and nWoD....
for me, I personally like the nWoD. There seems to have been more thought about how the various properties could/would/should fit together, and the runs seem to run a gambit balancing act, that mostly gets it right. I also liked how the nWoD rules closed a lot of tiny little loop holes in the various "morality/Spirit/madness/snowflake" meter, while also making that meter more important overall. (which to my understanding is the very something that many cWoD rabidly hate.... Go figure)
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In general, whenever I see nWoD brought up, it's used as an example of how a simpler rules system is not better. Never as an example of a good game. Even since cWoD was re-released.
...what, is it a case of being too simplistic because the system doesn't have that complexity where it's needed?
The reason always varies, though that one is a common complaint. But, that's a common complaint about all simplified rules systems. I think I've even seen it on here about Sr5, which isn't a simplified rule system by a longshot...
If it's anything like Savage Worlds, it may be a case that the simplification gets in the way. In the case of Savage Worlds, the rules are so simplified that supplements actually require some houseruling and general tweaking just to work together. I don't think nWoD would have this issue because it's designed with the idea the multiple supplements should work together... but Savage Worlds wasn't supposed to have it either.
So, play it and see for yourself?
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people didnt hate the rules change.
They hated the bastardized, soul-less mockery of the story and theme of things.
ESPECIALLY the Garou (who aren't even called Garou in the new one).
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people didnt hate the rules change.
They hated the bastardized, soul-less mockery of the story and theme of things.
ESPECIALLY the Garou (who aren't even called Garou in the new one).
Or, to phrase that complaint differently: People hated that the new game lines were actually new games with similar themes and not new editions of the old game lines.
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Which, IMO, Made the system new and fresh... but then I was never more then a hobby player...
If SR did a reboot that complete I would probably be pissed too...
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If SR did a reboot that complete I would probably be pissed too...
That's the thing though, they didn't do a "reboot." What they did would be the equivalent of if Catalyst said "We are going to end this game line with an apocalyptic event," for 13 years and filled their products with steps further towards that end-game and reminders that said end-game was the plan - and then made the biggest and best effort at the end-game that they could.
...but then, rather than just cancel the Shadowrun line, decided to release a game called Runner that shared genre and some themes.
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FWIW, I do own the standard WoD core rulebook, which came as a result of the special bundle over at DrivethruRPG during Free Tabletop Day 2014. It's nWoD, but I'm able to give it the benefit of the doubts especially since in terms of the basic mechanics, it should be universal across all the various supplements. And fluff wise, should give an overview of the WoD. So at the very least, I'd be ready to go if for some reason I wanted to run a WoD game, even of the PCs are regular 'ol humans.
I'll chime in with my thoughts in he coming days/months/weeks.
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I played a single game of old World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade or whatever it was called. I liked it pretty okay.
I picked up several of the New World of Darkness books and read through them. They were largely hit-and-miss. Vampires still have the problem of "your character is only active at night, and only significant after they've been around for like three or four centuries" which kinda... complicates the stories you can tell in a campaign like that. The Werewolf book did nothing for me; the whole spirit guide neo-tribal thing was stupid and borderline offensive, and excuse me for wanting werewolves to be FREAKING WEREWOLVES AND TURN INTO MONSTERS AND EAT PEOPLE BECAUSE COME ON THEY'RE FRICKIN' WEREWOLVES.
Changeling I was pleasantly surprised by. They really nailed the whole "faeries can actually be creepy and terrifying" aspect. The humans mutated into faerie beings was very effective, and the story snippets that describe their "abductions" were actually way scarier than anything in Vampire or Werewolf. Changelings fall a little short of Werewolves and Vampires in terms of mechanical power, so you'd have to be careful if you planned to run a Changeling game that used those as antagonists or if you had a mix of players playing different supernatural things.
I tried to flip through Mage but it just didn't grab me. Ultra-complex magic system seems cool if you have about thirty hours to sink into learning it, but the whole "mages are awakened descendents of Atlantis and this is a dream world" thing didn't appeal to me and kind of makes werewolves and vampires seem pretty darn irrelevant in comparison.
Other books I'm not familiar with... except for Hunter: The Vigil. Which I loved. It was the first book that actually gave me an idea of how to run a campaign for it. You're a hunter. You're a messed up person who's aware of monsters and decides to kill them and will probably die in a spectacularly bloody fashion. Hop to it. It's clear and simple and compelling.
If I was to ever attempt to run a New World of Darkness game (and I might; it's rules aren't perfect but they're at the perfect level of complexity I like) it would probably be a Hunter game, where players were in a sandbox-type county in the rural United States. I'd stat up several "threats" and it'd be up to the players to discover them and take them out. It'd be fine, and I might get around to trying it some day.
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So World of Darkness: Hunter is ripping off the TV series Supernatural? ;D
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So World of Darkness: Hunter is ripping off the TV series Supernatural? ;D
Other way around. Hunter predates Supernatural by a decade or so.
Edit: Checked. I'm wrong on this, but I remember them having a product along these lines... Blast it.
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So World of Darkness: Hunter is ripping off the TV series Supernatural? ;D
Other way around. Hunter predates Supernatural by a decade or so.
Edit: Checked. I'm wrong on this, but I remember them having a product along these lines... Blast it.
The smiley means I'm joking. :P
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So World of Darkness: Hunter is ripping off the TV series Supernatural? ;D
...actually, one of the first things that came to mind when I was reading through the wiki entry on Hunter was to run a campaign set in the world of Supernatural but with the ruleset of Hunter.
That you'd go through the events of the show, the only difference being that the Winchester family does not exist and the PCs would take the place of them instead.
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Oh, yeah, no Hunter: The Vigil lists Supernatural in its "suggested reading/viewing" section. It's totally a Supernatural RPG.
I'm not a fan of the show personally but it's pretty much depicting Hunters.
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Muscle cars with smuggling compartments, what isn't to love? ;D
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There aren't enough good theme songs to go along with running over werewolves in an old Chevy Impala.
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I am familiar with both NWoD and CWoD. There are things I like about both, things I don't like about both.
Classic Vampire: Politics and backstabbing are the rule of the night. But, ultimately your character does not
truly have free will. Everything you do is going exactly to some Methuselah or Antediluvians plan. It really
has never worked well for me as a tabletop game, because the playgroup size is just too small.
NWoD Vampire: Increased the politics, by doing away with the sects. Since the game was made to focus on
the players, and it has the conflicting loyalties between Clan, Bloodline, and Covenant, it works better
on the tabletop. The only mistake I actually think they made was keeping the names Ventrue, Gangrel,
and Nosferatu. The names carried too much baggage with them.
Classic Werewolf: You are epic heroes of race that is effectively dying. You know the end is coming, and it
is about how you stand facing your races imminent death. Many people do it as Furry Superheroes or
Shapeshifting Eco-terrorists, but it can be so much more, and really depends on your GM.
NWoD Werewolf: The spirit world intrudes on the physical world. As a Werewolf, you are the heir of an ancient
legacy that enforced the limits of the Spirit World. You have a territory, and you defend and protect it from
threats, both from the physical world and the spirit world. It focuses more on this, keeping the focus on
a small group, rather then on the Classic Werewolf's focus on the Sept and Caern.
Classic Mage: Reality is shaped by the belief of the people of the world. As a Mage, you know this and can
reshape reality to work as you need it to. If you go too much against what people believe is possible,
reality hits you back. There is a war for reality, with one side pushing science and trying to make the
world a safer, more orderly place, while the other is fighting for survival of their very beliefs.
NWoD Mage: Magic is Humanity's birthright. Magical traditions all have their origins in ancient Atlantis, but
the world is reshapable to your whim. However, since magic comes from the Supernal Realms, and
crosses across the Abyss, when you do magic, you are imposing divine reality on the physical world
and pulling it across the Abyss, creating friction, and something eventually has to break.
In essence, the Classic World of Darkness focuses on huge, over-arching plot events, while NWoD focuses
on smaller scale, sand-box style play, where each table can be different.
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I never thought of it that way Mara. Thank you for the insight!
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I never thought of it that way Mara. Thank you for the insight!
It is ultimately the difference between the two that changes things. I love the Classic World of Darkness because
it has this epic story going on. I love the New World of Darkness because I can make everything my own, and, you
know, maybe what was true in one game will be different in the next. Unlike the Classic WoD, there are no absolute
truths. Which makes it good.
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cWoD: There is a secret world, just around the corner from yours, full of mystery, monsters, and magic. Now you're a part of it.
nWoD: You are a monster. The universe hates you.
Thing is, I'm noticing a tendency for re-released RPGs to go "darker and edgier" than their predecessors (*cough* SR5 *cough*), possibly following the zeitgeist. My problem with this is that "darker and edgier" =/= "more dramatic" =/= "better storytelling", as the designers appear to be thinking.
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After looking it over?
AndyNakamura summed it up on setting. I'm looking at rules and noticing that, while mechanically you can mix the different groups, in fluff this produces a game that loses all themes and there appears to be no plans to change that. The classic game had them all tied together by the end, but mechanically was a bit of a mess to actually play.
There's also the fact that Masquerade, for all of its faults, had a complete setting that was easy to play for anyone. Requiem, for all of its blessings, lacks that. And a lot of people these days seem to prefer complete settings over setting-free games.
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There's also the fact that Masquerade, for all of its faults, had a complete setting that was easy to play for anyone. Requiem, for all of its blessings, lacks that. And a lot of people these days seem to prefer complete settings over setting-free games.
It's called "Blood and Smoke: the Strix Chronicle."
Each nWoD gameline is currently being looked at to follow suite, giving each a default chronicle (story and setting) - they have already done two (regular humans in The God Machine Chronicle, and vampires in the above book, and they even released some updates for playing Hunter: the Vigil with the God Machine stuff) and are in the design phase hammering out the Idigam Chronicle for werewolf.
It is no longer accurate to make your first claim, though I agree that the "pure toolkit" style of game is less popular these days than it once was.
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I love new world of darkness and demon is epicly awesome.
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I love new world of darkness and demon is epicly awesome.
I love both Worlds of Darkness, but for different reasons. Of course, my favourite Classic World of Darkness
games were Werewolf and Mage. My favourite NWoD games are...Werewolf and Mage. So, for me the, the
differences in the two both in terms of setting are more visible, and more intuitively understood.
cWoD: There is a secret world, just around the corner from yours, full of mystery, monsters, and magic. Now you're a part of it.
nWoD: You are a monster. The universe hates you.
I disagree with this. In BOTH, the whole "There is a secret world, just around the corner from yours, full of mystery,
monsters, and magic. Now you're a part of it" is the core of it. However, so is the "You are a monster" dealy.
A Vampire in CWoD had the whole issues with their own Beast, and their slow, steady decline in Humanity to doing
unspeakable things. Masquerade was about the slow, inevitable downward spiral, while Requiem made it EASIER
to keep your Humanity higher. Werewolf, if you think the Werewolves weren't Monsters in Apocalypse, then you weren't
paying attention, and were doing the whole 'We are noble Warriors for Gaia, yadda-yadda-yackity smackity" stuff. You
did not deal with the acceptance of rape of Kinfolk by the Silver Fangs, the ease of triggering a Rage Roll, and the Curse,
pretty much everything the Shadow Lords were willing to do, and, oh, yeah, anything the Red Talons did to humans(like,
you know, their 'christmas trees'), the treatment of Metis, etc, etc. Frankly, Garou and Vampires are every bit the monsters
in both WoDs, just NWoD is a little more honest about it.
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The only thing I can add about VTM (old skool WoD) is that their table for humanity loss wasn't very complete, and led to some interesting shinanigains by some players... ("If I mind control Pete and get him to kill that guy, Then HE should suffer a humanity roll and not me. After all, he did the killing!!"
while Requiem fixed those silly stupid little loop holes to a far better extent...
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The only thing I can add about VTM (old skool WoD) is that their table for humanity loss wasn't very complete, and led to some interesting shinanigains by some players... ("If I mind control Pete and get him to kill that guy, Then HE should suffer a humanity roll and not me. After all, he did the killing!!"
while Requiem fixed those silly stupid little loop holes to a far better extent...
Yeah... I've had plenty of debates about Vampire revolving around the idea that one should adhere to the mechanics of the Humanity rules (make Pete do it and Pete is the only one that risks degeneration), rather than the idea of them (do bad stuff, and you lose yourself to the monster within).
...though I also had a lot of debates about whether alternate paths were good or bad for role-playing - I always saw them as a kind of "free pass" to do whatever nasty stuff you wanted your character to do and would be driven into madness by if only he hadn't just decided not to follow the path of humanity anymore.
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The only thing I can add about VTM (old skool WoD) is that their table for humanity loss wasn't very complete, and led to some interesting shinanigains by some players... ("If I mind control Pete and get him to kill that guy, Then HE should suffer a humanity roll and not me. After all, he did the killing!!"
while Requiem fixed those silly stupid little loop holes to a far better extent...
Yeah... I've had plenty of debates about Vampire revolving around the idea that one should adhere to the mechanics of the Humanity rules (make Pete do it and Pete is the only one that risks degeneration), rather than the idea of them (do bad stuff, and you lose yourself to the monster within).
...though I also had a lot of debates about whether alternate paths were good or bad for role-playing - I always saw them as a kind of "free pass" to do whatever nasty stuff you wanted your character to do and would be driven into madness by if only he hadn't just decided not to follow the path of humanity anymore.
In Masquerade, I never saw the Paths of Enlightenment like that. They were more "You have given up any illusions of being
human, and have embraced the monster you really are. Of course, you have to use some guidelines to keep your Beast
in check and keep you from just going around killing and eating anything you encounter as a feral animal in human form,
so...here are the paths that keep you in check." Some are actually MORE restrictive then Humanity. And some, you can
actually be a fairly nice vampire(for a sociopath). I think I figured that one of my characters, played as I envisioned him,
would be Humanity 4, but Path of Power and the Inner Voice 5 or 6, based on his routine actions. (Fun note: one time
in a LARP, I was playing this character, and I was trying to tell my loyal underling to execute the Ventrue I was dealing
with, but..I had one of those word burps that sometimes happens where you can't find the right word, and your brain
goes looking for it, and you come up with a completely different word then you wanted to use. So, instead of saying
"Valentinius. Execute him." I ended up with "Valentinius.(pause for what turns out to be a dramatic second) Vivisect
him." Fun times were had by all that night! Well...except the Ventrue..)
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Mara, that was my point - you saw the paths as "I choose to opt out of being tortured by my inhumanity," when the entire point of humanity as a trait was to mechanically encourage the player to be tortured by their inhumanity.
It was supposed to be "You do bad stuff and this rating goes down and that is bad for you," and the paths came along and said "or, you can switch to this and have a higher rating while acting the exact same way."
Yes, some of the paths were very restrictive... and more than none of them were actually directly conducive to stunningly disruptive play - "Sorry guys, I have to diablerize all my enemies. It's on my hierarchy of sins all the way down at 2... what? I thought it was cool for us to follow paths other than humanity, how was I supposed to know that Path of Blood was still off limits?"
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Mara, that was my point - you saw the paths as "I choose to opt out of being tortured by my inhumanity," when the entire point of humanity as a trait was to mechanically encourage the player to be tortured by their inhumanity.
It was supposed to be "You do bad stuff and this rating goes down and that is bad for you," and the paths came along and said "or, you can switch to this and have a higher rating while acting the exact same way."
Yes, some of the paths were very restrictive... and more than none of them were actually directly conducive to stunningly disruptive play - "Sorry guys, I have to diablerize all my enemies. It's on my hierarchy of sins all the way down at 2... what? I thought it was cool for us to follow paths other than humanity, how was I supposed to know that Path of Blood was still off limits?"
I see the Paths differently. Humanity is about fighting your monstrosity, Paths are about controlling it. Different philosophies, to
reflect the different factions. Humanity is followed by the Camarilla because they are the vampires who try to maintain the
illusion of humanity, who live and hide among the kine. The Sabbat use the Paths because they are the monsters, the people
who think strapping some kine to cars and playing 'bumper cars' with them is a fun thing to do on a friday night. Anarchs go
either way. Only in an Anarch game would you run into a mixture of Humanity and Paths in the PCs. If you have someone
following a PAth in a Camarilla game, it is going to be a Path that can hide in the Humanity Loving Camarilla.
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I'm a long time player and GM of both the cWoD and nWoD. I think nWoD is great. The rules, particularly with the God Machine Chronicles update, are quite a bit better, and their is some overarching plot stuff for GMs to work in. The nWoD suffered at first from trying very hard to not be cWoD and not much else. Now it's had time to mature a bit and be something on its own.
I recommend Demon the Descent. I havn't had a chance to play yet, but the book reads well and the rules are good seeming. Also, the idea of being an escaped cog from a big cosmic machine acting like a spy in the middle of humanity sounds fun to play.
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I would love to play an Online NWOD game. Anyone running one ?
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I would love to play an Online NWOD game. Anyone running one ?
I am sure there are some MUSH's out there..
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Hiya. Back here.
So past few months I've been poring over a lot of the cWoD stuff, specifically the 20th Anni lines. Mostly because these have been touted as being the most definitive editions of the cWoD and without the baggage of the original metaplot. Not to mention I've backed the (soon to end as of this post) Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anni on KS.
I'm still left with the core problem of what to make a campaign of anything cWoD about in terms of having a concrete goal and overarching plot. VtM I had to look at a setting book to get any idea of what to run. WtA I have no idea outside of having the PCs wander around the countryside helping out the caerns they see on the way. MtAs and CtD I've got nothing. WtO they at least provide me with the stuff on transcendence...but otherwise no easily graspable plot hooks like in D&D or SR.
In terms of the lore of cWoD I've started to realize that a lot of it lines up with SR, or meshes with SR's lore in interesting ways. So I've started to incorporate cWoD lore into my home campaign to add to existing SR lore. Thus far I've made the shifters the Changing Breeds and Garou from WtA (with the downside being losing the ability to go Crinos) and made the God Machine from nWoD a prominent antagonistic force.
As of right now, I've even started a chronicle/campaign of VtM with a group of four set in LA (aka THE Anarch Free City)
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Tasti man, I am curious: are you restricting yourself just to the corebooks? If so..then:
Vampire: The PCs are Neonates in a Camarilla city at war with the Sabbat. They are starting off with a simple
job: cover up the Masquearde breeches of the Sabbat. Over time, they begin to notice a pattern and figure out
that someone inside the Camarilla is leaking the Sabbat information. Who is it? How can they do something
about it, as they likely do not have the same Status as their suspect, who can just use his/her status as a shield
against these Neonates. And so, they have to begin working against him subtly, plotting, planning, until they can
make his enemies have an excuse to move against him.
Werewolf? Take a city, look at the threats to natural things in it..make those supernatural threats. Your Werewolves
are a pack working to stop those, and defend their Caern. Or maybe they are dealing with a subtle threat. Start out
with a grissly murder of some Kinfolk. The Elders won't deign to send a more experienced pack on it, because,
after all, these are merely Kinfolk..so the player's pack gets that task. As the investigate, the find more subtle things
going on, and find a link between these kinfolk and that battered woman's shelter that opened a couple months ago.
And it just gets darker from there, leading, ultimately, to some major Bane that is manipulating everything to try and
cause the Wolves to turn on each other.
These are the only ones that have their 20th anniversary books out. Mage is still in writing, so I would not say that that
won't provide similar great hooks, and Changeling is not going to be touched until next year.
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Of course I haven't been restricting myself to just the corebooks. That would be silly.
The Vampire game I'm running right now I got from looking through LA by Night and where I figured out the plot I'd like to run. How despite being the capitol (of sorts) of the Anarch Free States that's it's a powder keg waiting to blow. Especially considering that many of the former Anarch cities have been taken from the Anarchs (San Diego had the former Anarch Tara turn the city over to Camarilla and her getting installed as Prince while San Francisco completely crushed any Anarch resistance by its local Prince). So when LA's "Prince" disappears, the various Anarch factions start falling apart and openly warring with each other, prompting the Camarilla and Sabbat to take action. The Camarilla seeing this as one big Masquerade breach that they feel it's their duty to plug up, by whatever means necessary, and also reclaim a city that they felt rightfully belongs to them. The Sabbat wants to settle an old score at the embarrassing defeat they suffered at the Anarchs years ago and see this as an opportunity for some bloody revenge. The PCs were recently Embraced neonates, so they haven't really had enough time to grasp and uphold the Anarch lifestyle and philosophy, so they could in theory choose to side with whoever they please on who will run LA.
The thing about Werewolf is that while Vampires tend to be stuck in one city to do the stuff they do, Werewolf lends itself to having a pack travel around the world helping the other septs and caerns. Especially since in the modern nights, they continue to mention that all of the Garou need every bit of help they can get to fight the Wyrm, even if it means other packs from septs in different countries dropping by to help out. W20's Rage Across the World solidified this idea in my mind in particular, and how they portray the Wyrm conflict being very global and far-reaching. While the W20 books have said that a chronicle revolving around sept politics can work, for me it's not the kind of game I want to run for Werewolf...at least for now.
In the meantime, I've been flipping through PDFs of the older cWoD books as I wait for the 20th versions to be released. Wraith in particular has been fascinating to me. Granted I'd have to wait until 2016-17 at best before the Wr20 book gets officially released but I can bide my time with the other lines.
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Tasti man, yeah..you pretty much need Rage Across the World 20th and the Book of the Wyrm to make the most of W20(and
the new Umbra book). But there is alot more. You just have to decide on the theme you would be working with. I try to avoid
the 'Furry Superheroes' route or the 'Religious Eco-terrorists' route, because, first, those have been done to death, and second,
there is so much more to the setting. I am actually running a game now focusing on the subtle spiritual corruption of a Sept,
and the PCs are trying to find out what is happening and stop it.