Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Khenti on <05-08-14/2243:22>
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Bear with a GM who hasn't run a Shadowrun game since 3rd edition as he tries to figure out this shiny new wireless setting and tech curve.
Even before the new Run & Gun introduced Personal Integrated Tactical Networks, it seemed to me that most installations are likely to have their guards closely monitored in some fashion. With commlink cameras, smartlink weapon systems and biomonitors all easily linked and tracked within a network, is there any real means to engage someone without their allies being alerted immediately afterward?
Am I mistaken in thinking the most direct answer would be to have a decker/technomancer brick the device? Though of course that would still register as someone being offline and thus likely throwing up an immediate flag. Otherwise (if I'm not misunderstanding the economy of Matrix actions), it would take a Spoof Command action for each monitored device on each guard to fool it into reporting an "A-OK" or freezing/looping records (assuming that functionality is even something the device can do in the first place) before engaging without risk of a guard's PAN detecting any harm to their person, any shots fired or even just catching the Runners on camera.
In a similar vein, other than the PI-Tac flavor text mentioning team networking being subject to malfunctions (something I can't say I've seen a game mechanic for), is there any real reason the team's resident decker/technomancer can't already monitor all the same things as a PI-Tac? Obviously without the actual mechanical benefits afforded by the PI-Tac system itself, I was operating under the idea that the same functionality was already possible. Especially if each member of the team has slaved their devices to their commlinks and then slaved their commlinks to the hacker's for protection and monitoring, as my players do.
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Especially if each member of the team has slaved their devices to their commlinks and then slaved their commlinks to the hacker's for protection and monitoring, as my players do.
It's unclear if this daisy-chaining works, but if it does it's actually a pretty bad idea - per the rules, a device slaved to a commlink uses the commlink's attributes to defend; if the commlink is slaved to a more secure system, it's own attributes have not changed. As such, defending, say, a Smartgun slave to a commlink slaved to a deck is not done with the deck's attributes. However, if the smartgun is marked, a mark is gained on the commlink, which leads to a mark being gained on the deck. If it works by the rules, it's actually a pretty insecure setup.
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I think a big problem with this is that it gives guards a serious upgrade, to the point they could be a serious threat to runners. Which is a problem since the average guard isn't supposed to be.
By fluff, guards are primarily to deal with civilians, not shadowrunners; against shadowrunners, they're basically supposed to be meat shields and cannon fodder to delay the runners until the actual threat shows up. And by fluff, they know it. So something like this isn't actually something I think most guards would have access to.
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Especially if each member of the team has slaved their devices to their commlinks and then slaved their commlinks to the hacker's for protection and monitoring, as my players do.
It's unclear if this daisy-chaining works, but if it does it's actually a pretty bad idea - per the rules, a device slaved to a commlink uses the commlink's attributes to defend; if the commlink is slaved to a more secure system, it's own attributes have not changed. As such, defending, say, a Smartgun slave to a commlink slaved to a deck is not done with the deck's attributes. However, if the smartgun is marked, a mark is gained on the commlink, which leads to a mark being gained on the deck. If it works by the rules, it's actually a pretty insecure setup.
I agree with you entirely on this point, and I certainly don't intend to let the chain-slaving of devices give free reign to exceed the usual limits. In this case, it was more a matter of monitoring purposes. For example, if one PC's commlink is monitoring their smartlink weapon system and biomonitor, and the commlink is slaved to the decker's deck, then it appears as though the decker would be able to view those monitors as well.
Mostly it was a statement aimed at how easy it seems to be for a group of people to have at least one character able to monitor a group of others, and thus the ease with which it would seem both Shadowrunners and even the average group of guards have in keeping tabs on one another. That leads into me agreeing with SlowDeck as well, in that it really ramps up the challenge, but I can't see any reason at all why everyone wouldn't do so, with or without a full-fledged PI-Tac.
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Cost. The average guard is, IIRC, armed with less than ¥1000 of equipment. The PI-Tac, when you divide the cost around the group, is worth a few times that. It becomes cost-prohibitive when you're potentially employing thousands or even millions of guards.
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I agree with you entirely on this point, and I certainly don't intend to let the chain-slaving of devices give free reign to exceed the usual limits. In this case, it was more a matter of monitoring purposes. For example, if one PC's commlink is monitoring their smartlink weapon system and biomonitor, and the commlink is slaved to the decker's deck, then it appears as though the decker would be able to view those monitors as well.
Slaving isn't needed to share feeds.
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Cost. The average guard is, IIRC, armed with less than ¥1000 of equipment. The PI-Tac, when you divide the cost around the group, is worth a few times that. It becomes cost-prohibitive when you're potentially employing thousands or even millions of guards.
Oh, most definitely. That's why I specified with or without a PI-Tac. Near as I can tell, you can use a simple Commlink to perform the bulk of a PI-Tac's functionality if you aren't after the actual mechanical benefits of an extra Perception die or such. There are numerous examples of deckers or riggers keeping tabs on their team long before Run & Gun came out. I can't find anything at all to prohibit an entire group of guards (or Shadowrunners) sharing access to their various monitoring systems so they can keep tabs on one another, even if all they have is the built-in camera of said Commlink itself. It certainly leaves them more at risk of a hacking attempt, but it seems as though that risk is worth the complications it leaves your potential opponents.
I can (and am so far) handwave the whole thing and say they don't do so just because it would be a massive pain in any Shadowrunner's butt, but I thought perhaps there was a rule or something I was missing to explain why they don't bother.
Slaving isn't needed to share feeds.
Ah, thank you. I wasn't sure if it was, and that lends more pondering on my part as to why even the lowest group of grunts wouldn't keep tabs on one another.
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So far as corp guards go, part of what you need to keep in mind is that they'd want to have a minimal cost outlay tied up in these guys, and they wouldn't want anyone who happened to hack one guard's commlink to have eyes all over the facility.
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So far as corp guards go, part of what you need to keep in mind is that they'd want to have a minimal cost outlay tied up in these guys, and they wouldn't want anyone who happened to hack one guard's commlink to have eyes all over the facility.
That's a good point, thank you. So clearly you wouldn't want every guard to be running around with streaming details about the rest. Though I'm curious if that means a PI-Tac wouldn't afford the very same opportunity and provide the same risks, since clearly it would have to stream the information to every member of a team to provide the benefits.
It seems far more likely then, that there would be a person or two serving as a "security room" to monitor the other guards' feed, which means a hacker would have a more concentrated target to pursue. That comes across as far more doable.
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That's a good point, thank you. So clearly you wouldn't want every guard to be running around with streaming details about the rest. Though I'm curious if that means a PI-Tac wouldn't afford the very same opportunity and provide the same risks, since clearly it would have to stream the information to every member of a team to provide the benefits.
It seems far more likely then, that there would be a person or two serving as a "security room" to monitor the other guards' feed, which means a hacker would have a more concentrated target to pursue. That comes across as far more doable.
Still leaves the security room vulnerable. Would make more sense just to run a sensor array.
As for the PI-Tac, you probably have to hack the host device, but all the same there's no way corpsec is gonna have that.
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Still leaves the security room vulnerable. Would make more sense just to run a sensor array.
As for the PI-Tac, you probably have to hack the host device, but all the same there's no way corpsec is gonna have that.
I see your point about using a sensor array. It would still be as vulnerable as someone serving as a "security room," but at least it wouldn't provide additional information to a hacker.
This may be topic drift, but as for hacking a PI-Tac, it seems to me you could use Snoop on any device receiving its datastreams, which does seem to make it a rather sizable risk to use if you suspect you'll be facing enemy hackers.
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I see your point about using a sensor array. It would still be as vulnerable as someone serving as a "security room," but at least it wouldn't provide additional information to a hacker.
This may be topic drift, but as for hacking a PI-Tac, it seems to me you could use Snoop on any device receiving its datastreams, which does seem to make it a rather sizable risk to use if you suspect you'll be facing enemy hackers.
The array would be slaved to the host, so it has those ratings to protect it - the only vulnerability there is the direct connection exploit.
As for the PI-Tac, I'm not sure if the Snoop action is intended to work on it.
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As for the PI-Tac, I'm not sure if the Snoop action is intended to work on it.
I haven't found anything yet that would suggest it wouldn't. Though that's probably a question I should put up in the Gear thread.
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Tacnet costs around 100k per user. It's why I only am designing my PR5+ KE SWAT teams to have it, not the PR4 teams. The PR5 teams carry a LOT of expensive equipment, worth near-2m new. The PR4 teams not so much, just heavily-modded SWAT Armor and guns.
I can, however, understand secret corps with an important-enough operation that it involves FBA for the Guards, to use a RIG system and have a Spider and some Agents observe the results. But that's PR4+ Security, not ordinary guards.
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Yeah, allow me to add the the chorus of "That shit's way too expensive for normal corpsec to have."
A level 1 PI-Tac is nearly useless, since the only thing it does that commlinks can't do is a +1 to Perception and a GPS location system. The rest can be done already. Any imaging device can share its readout wirelessly already. Unless Team Biomonitor somehow doesn't require actual biomonitors (implying the PI-Tac adds hardware to everything slaved to it somehow) then that's doable simply by virtue of having biomonitors, which all runners and corpsec should have. Weapon status indicator, again all weapons do that already. Combined with it needing to be bought again for every 6 guards on duty, no company would be willing to pay for that crap.
Level 2 has much better benefits; however it is way too expensive for anything but military or HTR in my opinion.
Level 3 makes me laugh. That stupid "remote and limited access to vehicles and drones". Guys... You realize that you can just give other people three marks? Or just one mark if all you want them to be able to do is "[give] simple commands such as 'go to this location' and 'attack this target'"? That does not count as extra functionality! That is like advertising that your DVD has interactive menus as a bonus feature!
As for information sharing, there's no real reason for the corpsec to not be set up to flip an alert as soon as they detect something. Simple Action, Send Message, "I think I see someone." If you knock them out before that, their Biomonitor (which may as well be broadcasting to other guards or even the Host, not a huge point in having one if you're not using it wirelessly) will tell everyone they were injured. It's the information age right now in real life. This is why a hacker is needed; they can prevent that guard from sending a message or edit the readout of their biomonitor (but that'd only work for a short time).
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Slaving isn't needed to share feeds.
Ah, thank you. I wasn't sure if it was, and that lends more pondering on my part as to why even the lowest group of grunts wouldn't keep tabs on one another.
Which is why they have radios (aka comlinks)... and usually the cheapest ones, at that. Most "guards" are just radio operators, who may or may not be armed. Their primary function is to see trouble coming, and communicate that regardless of whether "There are armed people skulking in the parking lot", or "I'm shot".
This frees up more resources for the ready response force, whose job is dealing with any situation a stun baton and contacting someone's supervisor (about multiple boxes of office supplies being carried out through a fire door, after hours) can't solve.
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Which is why they have radios (aka comlinks)... and usually the cheapest ones, at that.
Not to distract from your point, but radios and commlinks aren't the same things. Radios would be micro-transceivers, which are awesome and cheap as hell. Plus, they can communicate wirelessly without needing to have wireless active.
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I've been assuming most competent enemies do this at some level since SR4.
Burner commlinks and micro-transceivers are cheap. And the advantage of coordination well outweighs the expense.
The difference is a matter of degrees. Unorganized gangers rely on loud noises and improvised flares. Organized ones get burners and more disciplined radio skills.
The low end of corp/rent-a-cop security are little better than the organized gangs, but get the addition of more tech support (Cameras, maybe a spider if they're lucky).
And of course, things ratchet up quickly from there up to however much I think the corp in question can afford/would spend. I usually have coat/potential RoI be the main thing keeping corps from making a location insanely secure.
PI-Tac systems fall under the middle of the spectrum. They're not really used for average guards, not only because of cost, but also because of the drone-inclusive 6-9 team member limit. Big sites are just require too much manpower for that to be really effective.
Slap em on the reserve force/HRT.
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Which is why they have radios (aka comlinks)... and usually the cheapest ones, at that.
Not to distract from your point, but radios and commlinks aren't the same things. Radios would be micro-transceivers, which are awesome and cheap as hell. Plus, they can communicate wirelessly without needing to have wireless active.
Radio waves are part of the matrix. Radio detonators in Run & Gun are just wireless detonators and even has rules for setting up a disposable commlink as one. If that doesn't mean radios and commlinks are functionally the same, I don't know what does.
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Which is why they have radios (aka comlinks)... and usually the cheapest ones, at that.
Not to distract from your point, but radios and commlinks aren't the same things. Radios would be micro-transceivers, which are awesome and cheap as hell. Plus, they can communicate wirelessly without needing to have wireless active.
Radio waves are part of the matrix. Radio detonators in Run & Gun are just wireless detonators and even has rules for setting up a disposable commlink as one. If that doesn't mean radios and commlinks are functionally the same, I don't know what does.
Not to mention that modern day wireless tech IS radio tech; 2.4GHz and 5GHz wavelengths, currently.
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So I'm thinking that the cost of the Pi-Tac is way too high. Thoughts?
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I'm thinking it's about right. It seems more intended for military and mercenary groups, and the price range is about right for squad-level equipment for them.
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So I'm thinking that the cost of the Pi-Tac is way too high. Thoughts?
Without a doubt... Even from a purely NPC perspective, it is way too costly for a few reasons... And this is for CorpSec, any military group prettymuch has infinite money as far as gameplay is concerned. Only works for six people at a time, doesn't provide many more benefits beyond what normal wireless communication provides, and requires a five-hundred-thousand nuyen piece of equipment to be vulnerable and a primary target to bricking to anyone infiltrating the area. In order to make it secure, they would also need to hire more matrix security experts, possibly one for each team of six, which would ramp up the effective cost even more now.
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I'm thinking it's about right. It seems more intended for military and mercenary groups, and the price range is about right for squad-level equipment for them.
With the exception of the lowest-rating one, which is supposedly used by civilians for paintball?
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No, even that one is pretty fairly priced (it mentions combat brawl leagues using the set as well), and even then it's obviously intended for tactical squad usage where a decker isn't necessarily available. Half a million isn't unreasonable for such a system.
A team hacker can do a great job replicating it, but even then replicating all of the features of the level 1 PI-Tac will probably come in at half a million (the majority of the cost being the cyberdeck) for the entire team. The PI-Tac itself is slightly more expensive than a decker doing the job personally, but that's to be expected when the corp's tech is doing the work for you. So it maintains the advantage deckers have in that they can do it cheaper and can also contribute far more to the team, but offers the same advantages of the decker's coordination options for groups that might not have one (such as, probably, a lot of HRT teams).
So, I don't see a reason why shadowrunners would need this tech, but I can't say it's overpriced for what it does.
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Out of curiosity, did Pi-Tac ever mention the need to be in the matrix? If we follow Aaron's ruling, it wouldn't be jammable, and it might not even be hackable due to communicating on its own frequencies and not using the matrix directly.
By the way, there's a few things to keep in mind regarding the price:
- Shadowrunners likely will get it through other means at a discount.
- Big companies would just have a thousand or more made at 10% the cost.
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The benefits of using PI-Tac are substantial, but gamemasters should remember that PI-Tac is wireless by nature, which makes it a target for hackers.
Even without that, if it were a "wireless but not hackable" thing I would scream. I also still stand firmly that a microtransceiver does not use magic to avoid being on the matrix (as I also stated earlier, radio waves are the matrix, too).
I wish it was just software again, because I really, really thought having a TM thread a TacNet was a really cool thing. Not terribly effective, but totally awesome. And a pirate PI-Tac would probably be interesting if only because of the design all the AROs would have instead of the streamlined-and-efficient corporate/military usage.
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Given how Microtransceivers apparently don't need to be 'wireless' to communicate, but are VERY limited in what they can transmit and receive, I'm willing to give them a pass. Sure, they can get snooped, but they wouldn't be hackable.
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A team hacker can do a great job replicating it, but even then replicating all of the features of the level 1 PI-Tac will probably come in at half a million (the majority of the cost being the cyberdeck) for the entire team. The PI-Tac itself is slightly more expensive than a decker doing the job personally, but that's to be expected when the corp's tech is doing the work for you.
You don't need a decker to replicate it. If your team has biomonitors, commlinks, and weapons (not even smartguns) then you can do everything it offers save for the GPS tracking and perception bonus. Keep in mind, you can even use a commlink to Trace Icon. It uses the Computer skill, is a Data Processing action, and you can simply use Invite Mark to give the team leader (or whomever is going to make this test). They can default, and only need one hit (so just 4 or 5 INT is all that's needed) because likely, the other players can just choose not to resist. Even if the GM says no to this, GPS positioning is not absolutely necessary.
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Of course a big downside to that setup is that you're employing 1 more device per person, making it harder to protect everything by slaving. (A big question is whether a gun with weapon commlink and smartgun counts as 1 device for a PAN.)
And yes, no resistance roll required. Those are only for illegal actions, not for legit users.