Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Senko on <05-14-14/0250:10>
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I was just browsing and came across the fact Immortal Elves are a child of a dragon and an elf and the dragons are currently at war which got me thinking could that happen again with other species. Has it already. Is there an immortal dwarf, orc, troll, other out there running around and hiding that they were an experiment by a dragon now dead? Was Merlin a myth, a powerful wizard out of time or half dragon from the 4th age? Thoughts anyone?
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I can't think of an official source that features an immortal that isn't an elf, dragon, or HMHVV-infected. I have an inkling Alamais (the IE baby-daddy) experimented with other races than elves, but the experiments "failed" with every race but the elves (and frankly, that didn't work out so well for Ol' Scarface*, either). That isn't to say they aren't out there; in fact, there's a pretty rich seam to be mined with the possibilities of extending orken and trollish life-spans beyond their current 40-50 years. Hmm...
* Yes, Alamis' scar was on his chest, but "Ol' Scarchest" doesn't sound as good.
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Are they children of dragons ?
Where is that fact from ?
I thought I had read something from Earthdawn that said it was a gift (magical) to certain members of "any" race, though elves were the first as the original servants of Dragons, & that their had been cases of Immortal Humans at some point, possibly Dwarfs too, IIRC.
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Are they children of dragons ?
Where is that fact from ?
I thought I had read something from Earthdawn that said it was a gift (magical) to certain members of "any" race, though elves were the first as the original servants of Dragons, & that their had been cases of Immortal Humans at some point, possibly Dwarfs too, IIRC.
Yeah, let's call it a "gift," as opposed to "that pervy dragon thing." :) The post-FASA Earthdawn Dragons book includes this little snippet from Alamaise's description:
Alamaise made a bargain with Jaspree and Astendar to allow him to create servants worth of him, children born of his blood and that of the elves who made their homes within Wyrm Wood. Alamaise took elven form and mated with elven women to bring forth the first of these servants.
Some of the surrounding fluff makes it sound like another of the Great Dragons (the Outcast) did something similar, even though it is forbidden by Dragon-Kind or what not, so the existence of other dragon-blooded immortals is possible, if not necessarily canonical; the whole "made a bargain" bit, though, implies to me that it isn't the sort of thing that happens anytime a dragon gets it's freak on with a "lesser being."
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Okay, I knew Alamaise had mated & the others had frowned on it. Just didn't realize that THAT was what was making elves Immortal, I thought the IE thing was something different, swore I'd read that somewhere.
So all the IE having their hate on against Dragons is really "daddy issues" ? Huh, who knew.
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Alamaise took elven form and mated with elven women to bring forth the first of these servants.
Draco Pro.....Scaled for her pleasure.......
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I understand the hate is more to do with how they were treated as Dragons seem to view their servants e.g. Drakes more as property than their usual view of other sentient beings as being pawns. So the IE weren't treated well and didn't want to go back to that.
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If you want a great read, check out the earthdawn dragons PDF FASA released into the net when they shutdown. It's not quite finished as a book, but the dragon lifecycle section is hilarious.
Near the end the scribe writing down the words of the Great Dragon he was in service of, he got asky about how, "Hey, wait a minute... Dragons can change shape into people. Do dragons ever fool around with other Name-givers?"
The dragon then gets really evasive and defensive and says something to the effect of, "Well, uh... yeah. We try not to do that anymore."
Good stuff.
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When did FASA shut down? Asking because I'm really hoping that funding for Earthdawn 4E they got back in February produces results.
Also, what was the name of the PDF they released?
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When did FASA shut down? Asking because I'm really hoping that funding for Earthdawn 4E they got back in February produces results.
This was the first, "original" FASA. They shut down in 2001. This has nothing to do with the corporation that currently holds the name.
Also, what was the name of the PDF they released?
Dragons.
EDDragons.pdf (http://shadowrun.fr/article/earthdawn-dragons) is the file you're looking for. There is also a quasi-canon book published by Living Room Games when it held the license for ED call The Book of Dragons (http://www.amazon.com/Book-of-Dragons-Earthdawn/dp/097041918X) that incorporates the original Dragons document and adds information that is not canon to FASA or Shadowrun, and is only canon to the LRG version of the game. I want to emphasize that because there is at least one adventure in that book that relates to the existence and possible origins of the Jade Dragon of Wind and Fire and the Four Coins of Luck.
The Damon subchapter of The Clutch of Dragons discusses the murders of various metahumans who could have come into contact with the dragon, and it's suggested that the reason why is because he mated with them. Which is exactly what Denairastas (The Outcast) did with humans, creating the long-lived members of the Denairastas Clan that rules Iopos, and leading to his being exiled from the dragon community for not cleaning up his mess (killing his non-dragon heirs). It is unknown as to whatever happened to Denairastas or those of the Denairastas Clan.
It is doubtful any immortal orks existed in Barsaive, but it's possible they may have existed beyond Barsaive and the eyes of its great dragons. However, there are no known immortal orks running around in Shadowrun. The list of immortal non-dragons was capped at two dozen in the Game Information section of The Atlantean Conspiracy chapter of Threats in 1996. The baker's dozen or so canon immortals are elves; a half-IE, half-Horror; and a human. I cannot say whether that is all of them, and I know that at least one has never been identified by name. I tried very hard to convince Jason to let me kill them all a few years ago. I failed.
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When did FASA shut down? Asking because I'm really hoping that funding for Earthdawn 4E they got back in February produces results.
Also, what was the name of the PDF they released?
FASA-FASA shut down years and years ago. Nu-FASA had a Kickstarter earlier this year (but be aware that there's not a ton of overlap between the two, besides the name).
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Oh! Okay.
And, thank you for the PDF link ^.^
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I tried very hard to convince Jason to let me kill them all a few years ago. I failed.
We appreciate the effort, Crimsondude.
On that note, a large plot point of my Denver game from last year included Ghostwalker kicking the Azzies back out. An early step in this process was ganking the uber shadow spirits Oblivion and Maelstrom one of which he killed and shoved in a metaplanar portal to one of the bug spirit home planes with Harlequin guilted into running inference to keep any bugs from getting through. This also included a large percentage of the spirit population of Denver in active combat. Shocking surprise? GW ganks Harlequin while he was tired from fighting a metaplane worth of insect spirits. Since, let's face it. Pretty much the entire plane would know there was an open portal pretty much immediately.
Anyway, next day his severed head appeared on a pike in full makeup outside the FRFZ council building.
Sorry, laughing man. There are consequences.
So, you know, one down. 23 to go.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8RCQDDsMpU
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I think it's been implied that the children of immortals can be immortal - for example Jane Foster. Though, I've never seen anywhere that says who her mother was----just that she died.
Another one I was never sure about was Sean Laverty - I know he was around before the 6th world, but I'm not sure how far back he goes. There were quite a few spike babies through the years - though that doesn't mean immortal at all.
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Interesting and I do like the fact that there is or was an immortal human around glad they haven't all been killed off.
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I'll just say it since not everyone has Threats, which is 18 years old: It's the Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge. The de facto top of the pyramid.
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I think it's been implied that the children of immortals can be immortal - for example Jane Foster.
Now here's some questions. Has there ever been any info on if there are kids that are NOT immortal. Or if the immortal quality can skill generations or if it can be passed on during low magic times. I mean, we have multi-thousand year old elves running around for the last 5000 years in "human" kingdoms. Did they never have kids ? Could you have mortal kids that later gave birth to immortals ?
Are dragons immortal ? I thought they could die but then again, mostly we just see them killed, not crippled from old age.
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I do know of one Immortal Ork for certain. Neil the Ork Barbarian! RAWR!
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Hmmmmm
Player: "Okay I'm playing a character that was originally human but turned into an Elf due to a high magic surge but they still look human so everyone thinks they're immortal."
GM: "Okay add immune to aging to your character for free."
Player: "What?"
GM: "Just do it please."
Player: "Err okay . . . could I really be a human and still have this?"
GM: "Sure why not, cool marks it down, that gives me higher edge too."
GM: "Thank you." shuffles through his notes for a suitable dragon to toy with the character.
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Hehe...
Elf w/ "Human Looking" trait sounds a lot safer & less dragony
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imho, IE's (and I-whatevers) make for interesting plot points and NPCs, but I would NEVER allow a PC; not even one who claimed to be 'just a descendant'; into my campaigns.
But since I have as an NPC a survivor of the 1st world...
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imho, IE's (and I-whatevers) make for interesting plot points and NPCs, but I would NEVER allow a PC; not even one who claimed to be 'just a descendant'; into my campaigns.
But since I have as an NPC a survivor of the 1st world...
This is kind of why most people hate IE's. "Good enough for the GM, but there's no way it's good enough for a PC" is an attitude an awful lot of players really hate.
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I don't know. It could work. How does Frosty's stats compare to a seasoned runner? If you are a new young immortal elf, I have to assume you'll be closer in power to a starting runner than Harlequin or Ehran the Scribe. And hell, just because your immortal doesn't mean you can't die or run the shadows.
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Pretty much that and I assume frosty while still learning probably isnt a starting runner. Personally I don't think the immortality would be a big problem compared to the other benefits (immune yo disease, pathogens and potential access to dragon magic). Because those are things that will come up in a game. Still starting out skills/ability wise I doubt their any more powerful than anyone else its just the ones still alive have had millenia to improve their abilities, skills and resourced. Hmmmm I wonder if there was ever a mystic adept immortal because with that much time to improve they'd be really scary.
The problem with the human looking elf is it costs you edge, skills, karma or magic. Could work for a non magic character though.
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Frosty isn't exactly what you call a "new" runner.
In the current canon it is the year 2075.
Frosty was posting on Shadowland as a runner as early as 2057 (Threats).
Even assuming she was completely green then, that means by now she's got near 20 years in the shadows, much of that time apprenticed to Harlequin (they parted ways in July of 2073).
I'd bet at this point she's quite powerful. Maybe not quite to the level of Thorn (Street Legends places him at a magic rating of 14!) given he's been active since as early as 2036, but she's probably quite a high level initiate at this point.
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I'd bet at this point she's quite powerful. Maybe not quite to the level of Thorn (Street Legends places him at a magic rating of 14!) given he's been active since as early as 2036, but she's probably quite a high level initiate at this point.
There're stats for her floating around in some book, but I can't seem to remember which one off the top of my head (somewhere in Dawn of the Artifacts, but I don't recall which one).
That said, in terms of magical power, I'd personally peg her higher than Thorn. She might not be as well-rounded (at both combat, stealth, and social manipulation) as he is, but that's because he's sunk a lot of time and training (IE, karma points) into skills across a wide variety of groups. For just plain magical whammy, I'd go with Harlequin's apprentice, well before I'd go with Agent Thorn, in my personal headcanon.
...all that said, though, I think her power comes more from that nonstop magical training with a lunatic who's a literally top-tier spellcaster, and less from just inherited power due to her lineage or whatnot.
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Her stats are on pp.140-41 of Artifacts Unbound. She's listed as Grade 11, Magic 15.
I'd peg her at full-power (M 17) by now given the events of Dawn of the Artifacts/AU are behind her. Given the change in skill levels, the important ones are definitely going to be in double digits.
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There you go not a starting runner but probably got where she is via training ratger than being immortal.
As for kids I'd say given shes noted as inheriting his immortal gene its probably a recessive trait.and while kids might have it they probably wont especially if they're the child of an immortal and anormal person but it can crop again generations after the crossbreeding toke place especially as mama levels rise.
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and while kids might have it they probably wont especially if they're the child of an immortal and anormal person but it can crop again generations after the crossbreeding toke place especially as mama levels rise.
Your mama is so low you couldn't even goblinize :P
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Whoops could have sworn I corrected that.
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There're stats for her floating around in some book, but I can't seem to remember which one off the top of my head (somewhere in Dawn of the Artifacts, but I don't recall which one).
Her stats are also in Storm Front - sounds similar to the Artifact one mentioned - I don't have that one...yet... ;)
If immortal children existed through the years since the 4th and 5th age, they would have been major targets by all sides - so it is very possible that not many of them made it to 2075. Not to mention the ones that never knew they were immortal and died of...well not natural causes -- Let's go with "alternate causes"!
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Interestingly though her stats make no mention of immune to aging/diseases/pathogens/toxins even though she's meant to have the immune to aging at least.
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Harlequin's Back (Circa 2055)
Jane Foster "Frosty"
Initiate Grade 2
Immunity to Age, Disease, Pathogens, Poisons.
A lowly Sorcery-4 & Conjuring-3, but already an Initiate-2 with 14 (15?) known spells ranging from Force-2 to Force-4
Bonded PowerFocus-4 and 2 Spell Locks.
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imho, IE's (and I-whatevers) make for interesting plot points and NPCs, but I would NEVER allow a PC; not even one who claimed to be 'just a descendant'; into my campaigns.
But since I have as an NPC a survivor of the 1st world...
This is kind of why most people hate IE's. "Good enough for the GM, but there's no way it's good enough for a PC" is an attitude an awful lot of players really hate.
I've never encountered those players, I guess. I mean, I don't have players wanting to start a company and work their way up to AAA status, either. Or wanting to play a Dragon, even a lesser one.
You could run that level or type of game, sure; but that's not the campaign I'm running, or would be comfortable in running.
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Had a bad-guy immortal taken down by my players back when I was running a campaign while back. (course they didn't know he was immortal :))
Nothing like the threat of losing their paycheck, to motivate them to kill him and blow up his bunker/headquarters. 'Course his condition was merely temporary. Nothing's better then seeing the looks on my players' faces when they saw him again back to making their lives difficult. ;)
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imho, IE's (and I-whatevers) make for interesting plot points and NPCs, but I would NEVER allow a PC; not even one who claimed to be 'just a descendant'; into my campaigns.
But since I have as an NPC a survivor of the 1st world...
This is kind of why most people hate IE's. "Good enough for the GM, but there's no way it's good enough for a PC" is an attitude an awful lot of players really hate.
I've never encountered those players, I guess. I mean, I don't have players wanting to start a company and work their way up to AAA status, either. Or wanting to play a Dragon, even a lesser one.
You could run that level or type of game, sure; but that's not the campaign I'm running, or would be comfortable in running.
See, that's just it, though. You don't need to run any certain "level" of campaign to let someone call themselves an Immortal Elf, or (especially) the descendent of one. You just let them write "immunity to aging" on their sheet under Qualities, and then probably "Enemy," and you talk to them to see how entangled they want to be in top-tier elven or draconic affairs.
Being "Immortal" doesn't need to mean they're thousands (or even hundreds, or even lots and lots of dozens) of years old. It might just mean a player likes the idea of their character not having to worry about dying of old age. If they want to be the great-grandson of one of the canon IE's, but removed from them in terms of power level, finances, and personal influence...so what? Why not let 'em? It shows they've done a little research for the game, at least, and care about the setting a little, and it's just given you, the GM, some plot hooks.
But when you say "IE's are awesome plot hooks and NPCs for me, the GM, to use," right next to "but I would NEVER let a player like that into my campaign," it triggers some warning bells, at least to me. Especially when you then go on to say you've got a pet NPC that's a survivor of the 1st world. The GM already has the whole universe up his sleeve, and the deck is wholly stacked against his players. When something as trivial as "I have a super long lifespan, unless I die in this incredibly dangerous profession I've chosen" is something a character really wants, and if they've got a background that fleshes out the character without dominating the campaign, I tend to fall on their side in the argument.
"Never" is a really loaded word, when a GM is talking about toys he's allowed to play with and toys a PC might also want to touch sometimes.
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But Critias, Great Dragons and megacorp CEOs are awesome plot hooks and NPCs for the GM to use, but they should NEVER let a player like that into their campaign. Would you let a player in your game say he was Damien Knight's son, or the mistress of a Corporate Court justice? There are, and always have been, things that are the purview of GMs, and GMs alone, regardless of system or setting, except for EXTREMELY out of the norm games, like a D&D game where the players are actual demi-gods or such, at 40th level or more. Or in the Marvel universe, would you seriously let a player be the Beyonder, or Galactus, or even Apocalypse?
On the face of it, being an immortal doesn't sound like it is that big a thing, and from a mechanics perspective, it isn't. But it is the same difference as that between a Barrens rat and a high society princess. Being one of those immortals gives you an 'in' to a very exclusive clique, with all that entails. For instance, Frosty is (I think) the youngest of the known immortals, but she was mentioned by name in Big D's will, even though she was an unknown only a few years before. And how many other Jackpointers can say they have sources that can tell them what happened in secret meetings of the dragon Council? That kind of thing can really skew a game wildly in the hands of a player, instead of a GM. Some things are best left as plot devices.
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Great Dragons have clear power. CEOs have clear power. Frosty has clear power (and lots of it). But those are all quantifiable things. Great Dragons have power not only because of their species, and their size, and their strength, and their magical talent, and their knowledge (being a "Great" takes time and stuff), but also because they travel in certain social circles and wield immense worldly power, while rubbing scaly elbows with others who do the same. Heck, even your "Barrens brat vs. high society princess" example has all sorts of built-in contacts and assumptions about financial resources and stuff (all of which is clearly quantifiable through the rules that govern those very things, with contact ratings and the resources portion of chargen). Same thing with a CEO, that's all about resources, and contacts, and stuff. Right? They're descriptors, and they describe someone's worldly power and status, as much as they do anything else. When you call someone a Megacorp CEO or a Great Dragon, incredible amounts of power are inherent in that descriptor.
Here's the disconnect, though -- none of that sort of power is actually inherent to being an immortal elf. This is where Frosty comes in. She doesn't have her power and influence because she's an IE, she has her power and influence because she was Harlequin's apprentice for years and years, she inherited a power focus from Dunkelzahn, she's been an active shadowrunner for decades, and because she's built up a social network (on Jackpoint, for instance, and among those other ageless movers and shakers) that matches those experiences.
When she was just an unknown bastard brat growing up in orphanages and foster homes in Missouri, and putting herself through school? The fact she was immune to aging wasn't that big a deal. So what's the harm in letting someone play Frosty as of twenty years ago? Leave it up to the player and the GM to see how much, or even if, she ever gets pulled into Ehran's troubles, under Harlequin's figurative and Dunkelzahn's literal wing, etc, etc?
I'm not saying "let someone play Harlequin." I'm saying "if you brag about your First World survivor GMPC in the same breath you say you'd never ever let a player be immortal, it's a red light to me." Heck, if anything, I'd think in a campaign full of First World survivors and intricate Immortal Elf power-plays, it would be even easier to insert some sort of powerless schmuck Frosty-as-a-college-kid type of character, thrust into the middle of that campaign as a catspaw without really knowing why.
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Except that the reason Frosty got to be Harlequin's apprentice was because she was Ehran's daughter, which is also the reason she got taken under Big D's wing. Yes, simply being an IE didn't immediately give her power, and she did work to develop her contacts in the shadows, but being an IE gave her an 'in'. It opened doors to her that would be bricked over for anyone else. To put it another way, nothing in and of themselves makes the 'voices' of the various great dragons all that powerful. But we all know that being in a dragon's inner circle conveys an incredible amount of power in its own right. If a player wants to get their hands on that kind of power, they should earn it in some way, and work for it, not just be given an 'in' because of their parentage.
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Which is -- again -- a different part of the character sheet entirely from where one would write stuff like "immunity to age" and what-have-you. The game already has a way to handle all that, and it's completely unrelated to happening to have a long lifespan. There are assumptions people are making towards being an "immortal elf" that are not always accurate. Frosty the day before she got drawn into the Ehran/Harley feud has a very different character sheet than Frosty the day after (and an even more different character sheet from Frosty in the mid 2070s).
All I'm saying is I don't see what the problem is with letting someone play Frosty the day before, where their background fluff mentions a natural aptitude for magical power, growing up missing (at least) one parent, and where their character sheet has a few Qualities that are, in all likelihood, never actually even going to come up in-game (because when was the last time one of your PCs died of old age, anyways?).
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It could even be the result of a one night stand by a depressed NPC and the characters mother with them not even aware they have a child. Meanwhile I can take Sinner Corporate, claim to be the child of a high level VP dabbling in the exciting running world I saw on the trid and have the same in your talking about. Especially if I take resources A and buy a few months of luxury living instead of useful gear.
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It could even be the result of a one night stand by a depressed NPC and the characters mother with them not even aware they have a child. Meanwhile I can take Sinner Corporate, claim to be the child of a high level VP dabbling in the exciting running world I saw on the trid and have the same in your talking about. Especially if I take resources A and buy a few months of luxury living instead of useful gear.
Lord, save us from the slummers. Amen.
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I am more and more with Critias on this one. Remember, Mirikon, that the only reason that Immortal Elf Frosty even got a chance to become Harlequin's apprentice was because Harlequin had a very specific mad-on for her Dad. And the only reason Harley could track her down was because Ehran did something stupid and put a magical tag he could use to track her actually inside her body.
I haven't done a build comparison of Frosty vs. potential growth stuff, so I really honestly don't know how she matches up with characters who have been running for two decades. But presuming she hadn't gotten pulled into the chal'han (or whatever it was) ... how long would it have taken for her to get 'discovered' by the Greats and the Immortals?? Five years? Fifteen? Fifty? Or five hundred??
So yeah, as a GM I'd be willing to allow a PC to toss 'Immunity to Age' in on a character sheet. I most likely wouldn't play with that too much, unless the other players were good with going into that nest of vipers, but when you get down to it, what's the difference at this moment between a recently-born Immortal Elf and a recently-born normal elf ...?? They're both 30 or 50 years old, and they're both going to seem that age for another hundred years ...
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Back on the subject of "passing the immortality gene": I think that in Harlequin PCs find out that Ehran has been keeping an eye out on a number of individuals (presumbly, his descendants), somehow checking for the gene and crossing them of the list. Frosty was the only one still under observation.
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imho, IE's (and I-whatevers) make for interesting plot points and NPCs, but I would NEVER allow a PC; not even one who claimed to be 'just a descendant'; into my campaigns.
But since I have as an NPC a survivor of the 1st world...
This is kind of why most people hate IE's. "Good enough for the GM, but there's no way it's good enough for a PC" is an attitude an awful lot of players really hate.
I've never encountered those players, I guess. I mean, I don't have players wanting to start a company and work their way up to AAA status, either. Or wanting to play a Dragon, even a lesser one.
You could run that level or type of game, sure; but that's not the campaign I'm running, or would be comfortable in running.
See, that's just it, though. You don't need to run any certain "level" of campaign to let someone call themselves an Immortal Elf, or (especially) the descendent of one. You just let them write "immunity to aging" on their sheet under Qualities, and then probably "Enemy," and you talk to them to see how entangled they want to be in top-tier elven or draconic affairs.
Being "Immortal" doesn't need to mean they're thousands (or even hundreds, or even lots and lots of dozens) of years old. It might just mean a player likes the idea of their character not having to worry about dying of old age. If they want to be the great-grandson of one of the canon IE's, but removed from them in terms of power level, finances, and personal influence...so what? Why not let 'em? It shows they've done a little research for the game, at least, and care about the setting a little, and it's just given you, the GM, some plot hooks.
But when you say "IE's are awesome plot hooks and NPCs for me, the GM, to use," right next to "but I would NEVER let a player like that into my campaign," it triggers some warning bells, at least to me. Especially when you then go on to say you've got a pet NPC that's a survivor of the 1st world. The GM already has the whole universe up his sleeve, and the deck is wholly stacked against his players. When something as trivial as "I have a super long lifespan, unless I die in this incredibly dangerous profession I've chosen" is something a character really wants, and if they've got a background that fleshes out the character without dominating the campaign, I tend to fall on their side in the argument.
"Never" is a really loaded word, when a GM is talking about toys he's allowed to play with and toys a PC might also want to touch sometimes.
A GM who's 'stacking the deck' against his players is running a very different campaign, one which treats the players as adversaries, rather than motivators for a cool story. There needs to be a real risk (that's what Edge is for, after all), but the objective is for everyone to have fun. (Of course, there are groups that enjoy high casualty rates; I'm simply not part of such a group, nor am I interested in being so.)
And yes, I don't see how allowing an IE (even a newly-minted one) wouldn't change the character and complexity of the campaign. The headaches the group has right now with a were-drake/dracoform trying to hide her very existence from discovery are quite sufficient for both me AND my players, thank you.
And I'm saying what I would do and allow; not 'no one should ever do this!' Some groups might well enjoy the inevitable plots and machievellian twists that (should) result from such a character. Some GMs might relish the opportunity to explore and create parts of the 6th World. I just don't happen to be one of them, is all.
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Would you let a player in your game say he was Damien Knight's son, or the mistress of a Corporate Court justice?
Say? Yep, absolutely. Believe, even. There is all sorts of potential mayhem that can happen with that sort of big claim, especially when it leads to a PC writing checks depending on that other person to cash them. If it's dramatically appropriate (or let's face it, funny), maybe their claim is actually true.
Except that the reason Frosty got to be Harlequin's apprentice was because she was Ehran's daughter, which is also the reason she got taken under Big D's wing ... If a player wants to get their hands on that kind of power, they should earn it in some way, and work for it, not just be given an 'in' because of their parentage.
Lots of people are who they are, where they are, because of who they were born to, or who they married, or who they had the dirty photos of (although I suppose that might qualify as earning it :) ). "Getting there" isn't what takes all the work, staying there is, and there will always be someone looking to unseat the top dog (especially if they look like they got there due to favoritism). Or maybe it's not what they think it is; maybe they're patsies, meant to take the blame or maybe they're meant to provide entertainment for the outrageously wealthy. Maybe daddy dearest is himself an imposter, using the character(s) to cover his exit? Hmm... the more I type, the more I want to do this to my players. "Evening, guys. Tonight we're playing Trading Places, Shadowrun edition."
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"Evening, guys. Tonight we're playing Trading Places, Shadowrun edition."
That would be fantastic.
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Too bad the pay is only 1 nuyen.
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No, that's the bet. The pay - presuming you get a chance to get back at the guys who ruined your life - is traditionally millions.
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Only if you can play the stock market.
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Only if you can play the stock market.
This is why I prefer The Sting to Trading Places.
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All I'm saying is I don't see what the problem is with letting someone play Frosty the day before, where their background fluff mentions a natural aptitude for magical power, growing up missing (at least) one parent, and where their character sheet has a few Qualities that are, in all likelihood, never actually even going to come up in-game (because when was the last time one of your PCs died of old age, anyways?).
This actually got me thinking about the rules.
Ignoring Age as its never likely to happen. If you just added up the other Immunity classes, What sort of Positive Quality point value would you put on "Immortal".
25 ? 50 ?
I figure its 4/10 points for a single Immunity, so, so 25 to 50 for ALL immunities is really not that much. No Aging is a freebie thrown in.
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Thing is, there's those like me who'd be happy to accept an "immortal" lite due to dilution as its the no aging that's the important part to us not the other immunities.
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100 karma. What immortals have is the critter power 'Immunity' - 2x Essence in the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Essence in automatic hits plus 2x Essence in dice, plus regular resistance - i.e. Body + Willpower) against the thing. I looked at that and decided on 50 karma for Immunity to Toxins, 45 for Diseases, and 5 for Age -- 100 as the package deal, with the requirement that the character cannot have any implant-friendly qualities, and must be either a full mage, a mystic adept, or have purchased Latent Awakening for one of those.
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100 karma. What immortals have is the critter power 'Immunity' - 2x Essence in the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Essence in automatic hits plus 2x Essence in dice, plus regular resistance - i.e. Body + Willpower) against the thing. I looked at that and decided on 50 karma for Immunity to Toxins, 45 for Diseases, and 5 for Age -- 100 as the package deal, with the requirement that the character cannot have any implant-friendly qualities, and must be either a full mage, a mystic adept, or have purchased Latent Awakening for one of those.
Only 5 Karma for immunity to aging? Would that cost go into being a vampire too? Obviously being a vamp would cost more since you also get + to a lot of attributes, and some vision enhancements, and regeneration, mist form, and...maybe being a vampire would be crazy expensive.
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What does immunity to age get you? 'You don't age, you don't get old.' I used to be on the 'oh holy crap that's powerful, immortality whee' bandwagon, until I really started to look at the what it does factor. Without 'age rays' or aging/youth magic, immortality does ... almost nothing. It gives you a good backstory, it gives you a good future-story presuming you survive the more immediate dangers, it means you never have to retire the character due to that one factor - and that's it.
There's a reason why, in HERO System, you can be immortal for 5 measley points - equivalent to 1d6 worth of an attack, which ain't much. Presuming they don't gain the other critter-power immunities immediately, immunity to age is a negligible 'gimmie'. It is interesting to note that the writeup for Harlequin has the Immunities, while the one(s) for Lugh Surehand and Frosty do not. Perhaps those immunities are not innate, and are instead gained from long-term training, magic, or whatever.
In which case, yeah, 'immunity to age' is a gimmie.
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and Frosty do not.
Her original write up in Harlequin's Back has all the Immunities listed.
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No offense but that seems a bit excessive TheWyrmOrouborous.
Personally I'd drop the costs for aging because really while I want it, it doesn't do anything in game terms. There are no ghosts that age you with each attack, no magics that age you when you use them and most campaigns take place over a few years tops. 5 Karma is equivilent to Bilingual (a native ability to speak another language for social tests, analytical 2 dice for pattern recognition tests, ambidextrous negate a -2 dice penalty for using both hands). Unless your talking 4th ed I'd put it at 1 or 2 myself if that.
Now the others are a much more valuable property and I'll take your calculations there however I wouldn't have the no cyber/bioware criteria. Afterall any cyber/bio you add reduces your essence and thus reduces your "immunity" so you become slowly more vulnerable to toxins, disease and poisons.
If your talking build points from fourth that would be different 5 isn't so bad even 100 for a raciual package could be viable.
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Take it however you want, Senko. I'm talking a BECKs-style karma creation system, in which the karma point cost for something at character generation is the exact same cost as that which you would purchase in-game. 100 out of 1000 points is quite a bit - but considering what you get, it's a steal.
Also, I did not require the character to not have cyberware or bioware; I restricted the character from having Positive Qualites that affected the impact of implant-ware, so that if they get implants, they get all the bad that's coming to them.
Seriously - read what I write, not what you think I write.
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Since this thread is sort of relevant to it, I figured I'd ask here.
Where is the most recent info on various Immortals & Dragons activity to be found ?
I own Clutch of Dragons but that is quite a few years old now.
Where can I find what has happened since then.
I've heard of updates for Hestaby, Alamais, GhostWalker, Harley & such but not sure where I can read up on that plot line.
Thanks for any info you can provide.
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Storm Front
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The Dawn of the Artifacts adventures cover some of that ground too.
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100 karma. What immortals have is the critter power 'Immunity' - 2x Essence in the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Essence in automatic hits plus 2x Essence in dice, plus regular resistance - i.e. Body + Willpower) against the thing. I looked at that and decided on 50 karma for Immunity to Toxins, 45 for Diseases, and 5 for Age -- 100 as the package deal, with the requirement that the character cannot have any implant-friendly qualities, and must be either a full mage, a mystic adept, or have purchased Latent Awakening for one of those.
Nothing in their about using a Becks karma system and I was merely looking at the comparable qualities you can buy for 5 karmaish SPECIFICALLY for aging, you'll note in my post I said I'd take your calculations on the others i.e 95 out of 100 points. As for the last sentence honestly I was taking my best guess at what you meant with it and I still am not really clear on what your saying there.
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Whether to allow an IE into a game is a tough question, but I tend to come down on the side of a newly awakened IE could be a viable character. It does provide potential plot hooks, but lots of players make characters that have plot hooks built into their backgrounds. Existing IEs, the dozen or so named ones we recognize and Great Dragons are more topography than characters. I don't look at them in the same way I do PCs or even NPCs, more like a river or mountain that happens to inhabit the universe.