Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Senko on <05-14-14/0320:09>
-
Rigger command consoles are described as bring able to (1) run non attack/sleeze programs and (2) be more like comlinks than cyberdecks. So given that and the fact the lower end consoles jave lower stats than the high end commlinks. Why can't we run a browser program or an edit program that would be really useful in day to day life?
-
Because commlinks are already running all the software they can handle.
-
If that were true how can they have an effectively unlimited amount of data storage + mapsofts, datasofts, shopsofts. Your telling me my comlink can run a map navigation program and a shopping program to give me directions to the nearest Sportsgirl while playing my favorite music, and allowing me to call up 600+ page manual for me to peruse for work but it can't also load an editing program to make my marking up sections to cut, add, spelling and grammar corrections and other changes a little easier?
-
Because that is what works to make the parts of the game work as intended.
Shadowrun does not seek to emulate, or even evoke, a "realistic" world - it is a fantasy game that involves fantasy science and the only possible explanation for why technology doesn't make real-world-based sense is because the designers are game designers not scientists from various fields attempting to make accurate predictions of the capabilities of a "commlink" as described in the book.
-
If that were true how can they have an effectively unlimited amount of data storage + mapsofts, datasofts, shopsofts. Your telling me my comlink can run a map navigation program and a shopping program to give me directions to the nearest Sportsgirl while playing my favorite music, and allowing me to call up 600+ page manual for me to peruse for work but it can't also load an editing program to make my marking up sections to cut, add, spelling and grammar corrections and other changes a little easier?
Perhaps because those things rely on built in functionality?
-
So i guess its just me who's bothered by the fact you can use "common" programs (not hacking ones) on a cyberdeck and rigger command console but not the common commlink. Even though things like a browser, editor, firewall or noise scrubber would make a huge amount of sense to have on them and it cant be a size issue as some commlinks have higher data processing than the ones you can run peograms on. :-\
-
Cyberdecks and RCCs are far superior in hardware, allowing them to actually run these. A commlink can run a generic edit tool, but not a heavily-optimized one using special hardware. The same goes for the others. A smartphone won't be able to run the same kind of software a PC can. People get a LOT of memory issues with SRR, for example, which isn't any concern when you're playing on a decent PC. So there are in fact things the small device cannot manage properly.
In return, however, a commlink will have a superior firewall and data-processing over an RCC. Because it's specialized in what it can do, it works better for those.
-
Cloud Computing man. Your commlink cant run these programs because it lacks processing power, but it has all the storage in the world pretty much. Decks have local processing power for all their nefarious and illegal purposes that they don't want to be running 'in view' of 'the man'. And that local power is what lets them handle these specialized programs.
-
So i guess its just me who's bothered by the fact you can use "common" programs (not hacking ones) on a cyberdeck and rigger command console but not the common commlink. Even though things like a browser, editor, firewall or noise scrubber would make a huge amount of sense to have on them and it cant be a size issue as some commlinks have higher data processing than the ones you can run peograms on. :-\
5th Edition isn't 4th Edition. You no longer need to buy programs for your commlink to be capable of doing anything - instead, your commlink already has the software. Your commlink has a Firewall rating; it is capable of browsing the Matrix; it is capable of editing files; and according to Aaron, if you spend Edge to Push the Limit, you can perform illegal actions with them.
Cyberprograms, however, are especially designed to push the limit on what devices are capable of, and commlinks aren't wired for them.
-
You can still do pretty much anything you can do with a modern smartphone with your commlink - take and send photos, videos, and voice recordings, search for data or webpages, map a route, engage in social media, play games (in AR ,or VR with a simsense module on your commlink). You just can't treat that smartphone as if it's a computer loaded with Photoshop, run agents, etc.
I like that they took the focus off of having a good program and put it back into having a high-LOG character. Sure, your gear still matters for Limits and protection but the rest is alllll you. IMO much better than in 4th where your actual Logic had precisely zero affect on your hacking dice pool.
and according to Aaron, if you spend Edge to Push the Limit, you can perform illegal actions with them.
Hm, by the RAW you certainly can, I wonder if that was the intent though.
-
and according to Aaron, if you spend Edge to Push the Limit, you can perform illegal actions with them.
Hm, by the RAW you certainly can, I wonder if that was the intent though.
I'm hoping it was intended. It would be useful for those times when a cyberdeck is toast (this might happen) a technomancer needs to do a wired hack and the GM won't let them use a data tap for direct connection.
-
You can still do pretty much anything you can do with a modern smartphone with your commlink - take and send photos, videos, and voice recordings, search for data or webpages, map a route, engage in social media, play games (in AR ,or VR with a simsense module on your commlink). You just can't treat that smartphone as if it's a computer loaded with Photoshop, run agents, etc.
Exactly. whilst i can write a 500 page report on my smartphone, i can do it a damn site better on my computer.
My phone has a word processor, a browser + a camera with a very basic editing suite, my computer's dedicated programs give me much more power and ability to create what i want to create, and see what I want to see.
Decks are much more versatile and the programs like Editor are the equivalent step up from the default nokia text editor to a fully fledged office productivity suite complete with photoshop and a high end professional video editing suite as well.
-
I was gonna write a reply, about the incredibly in-depth stuff that a blandly-named Edit program can do - you know, whipping up falsified evidence against that judge in six hours or less, altering a SIN so that it doesn't quite jive with 'you', that sort of thing - as compared to 'I put a quick text note on that PDF' that a commlink 'edit' program does, but Csjarrat beat me to it.
-
Okay then how about instead you explain why when commlinks are so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ the basic computer to do this stuff costs so much more than a top of the line commlink?
-
Simple: They don't use commlinks for professional stuff done in the office. They use AROs projected by the building's internal network.
-
Okay then how about instead you explain why when commlinks are so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ the basic computer to do this stuff costs so much more than a top of the line commlink?
When you go to work, do you work on a computer? If you do, do you use your smartphone to do the work, or do you use their systems, with all the top-of-the-line programs?
The world of shadowrun has always run roughly parallel with modern technology, just 'smaller and better'; SR1 had earbud and implanted telephones when the world had The Brick, and cyberdecks when the world was trying to reach into the realm of the megabyte computer. Now we're dealing with civilians able to purchase terabyte systems at their local Best Buy or Fry's, and smartphones that blow away anything our computers could do back in the early 90's. Hell, if you want a real parallel, the game Pong is a loading-screen game, able to run in its full glory while a game system is putting together that ultra-hi-def first-person shooter.
Don't let SR4's stumble in regards to the computing process keep you thinking that a smartphone, however complex, and with however much crowdsourced and cloudsourced programming it might have - which is what a commlink is - is going to let you shoot, cut, mod, expand, audit, copy, falsify, and plant the same level of stuff that someone with a top-end laptop and power to burn can.
Commlinks are once more where they originally should have been in 4e - firmly in the 'pocket secretary' slot. You can do a lot, and if you're not a Computer Guy (i.e. decker), they're all you need. But a pro is going to use the right tool for the job, and bringing a pocketknife to a samurai showdown is going to get you in deep trouble real quick, unless you're incredibly good ...
-
Thats just it though I'm not asking it to do everything a deck does I'm asking why it CAN'T run a simple firewall program (classed as common) when it has better processing power and device ratig than a deck that costs five times as much when an (also worse) toffee control console (that contains in its description the statement that it has more in common with a comlink than a deck) can. Especially when a few years ago game time comlinks COULD run peograms.
I just can't see any way to justify billions of people not kicking up a fuss when they can no longer use an advanced editing pogram to compile the report for work at home. That's allowing for the increased security and looking at it solely from the internal perspective of that world. I especially can't do it from ours since the computers/orgrams we use at work are all older tech due to reliability and cost issues. I often do stuff at home on my own system that uses the programs I prefer. The problem is if I can't justify it to myself I've no hope of doing it to players.
Again I'm not talking about hacking programs (which I can justify as special hardware hence why they have attack/sleeze values) I'm talking about the common programs that would be useful for the vast working public like browsing, editing etc and yes I know I can do it but i can't see a reason why I can't edit using my edit ARO program instead of the default that comes prepackaged. I especially have a problem with common programs being for HOBBYISTS as well as professionals when the cheapest deck is equivilent to a years LIVING costs for a middle class person and requires a special license to own.
-
Because you are asking it to do what a deck does. You're comparing crabapples to watermelons.
At least in my game, any 'simple' program that a commlink can't run is not a simple program. It's simple for a cyberdeck, yes. In comparison to each other, and for its own tight personal 'I got a range of a whole fifteen feet before I gotta connect to another wireless device!!' commlink zone, the commlink ratings are, well, kickass. A Fairlight Blazing Sword!!!(tm) that costs 6,000 is far better than a Radio Schlock PDx2 that costs 150, and man, that FBS user is gonna kick the RSPD all over the place. But when he faces off against a serious hacker with a cyberdeck, he's going to run into problems. Because his ratings and his innate firewall is like holding up toilet paper against Mike Tyson - there ain't nothing to stop the thing from coming through, because someone with a machine built for hacking is not gonna even slow down against the kinds of piddly defense programs a frickin' pocket calculator can run.
You continue to insist that an editing program to 'compile the report at home' is by definition advanced. It really, really isn't. He can do that with the 'no need to write them down in the book because they're so basic, a caveman can do it' program that the commlink has. It's like comparing Word (or some version of it) to, say, the sort of video creation and editing setup the guys at Skywalker Ranch or Pixar have. They have what's an Edit program in SR terms - pretty damn high ones, too. But you can't run their rendering software on a frickin' IPhone 4.
You also can't run a targeted webcrawling program on an IPhone 4 either, but you can run it (Browse-equivalent) on a laptop (cyberdeck-equivalent) or home machine. The latter, please note, have in the past been described as 'breadbox' versions of cyberdecks - between 4 and 10 times less expensive, which is going to put them within the reach of your hobbyist.
When you get down to it, though, you're trying to rationalize something that reeeeaaally doesn't require rationalization or defense. If you want to, and are willing to describe it in metagame terms, you can say, 'the developers backpedaled on their 'smartphones can do everything' stance'. Or you can simply not bother, realize that in the same game the Speed of an airplane might be the same Speed of a frickin' motorcycle, accept that again you're talking about two totally different things that can't compare, and get on with playing the game.
-
Better processing power? Don't be so sure - a commlink doesn't need to be doing near as much with its processing power as a deck or RCC.
-
The commlink already has firewall program running on it. At a rating equal to its device rating no less. In fact a commlink already has a capability to do everything these 'common' programs can do. If you look, you will see all of these programs merely improve a capability. Be it halve a search time or add some dice to a pool. Or do something that is pointless on a commlink, like give you an alternate cyberdeck layout.
These 'common' programs are there to exploit the extra native processing crunch a deck has, which a commlink does not, and in so doing, enhance a capability.
If I was a cynical man, and heck, I am, so here goes, I would just say you want moar bonuses and feel like convincing everyone that your houserule rules is the way to get em.
Now to be fair, in 4th ed, a commlink effectively was a deck, and decks didn't exist. But frankly that was a mistake, and that has been removed in 5th ed. So no one is going to buy into the 'it used to be that way so why not now' argument because they've accepted that it should never have been that way for the sake of the health of the game.
-
There's also the fact that the best Decks and RCCs are Rating 5 at chargen, and getting a better one takes a LOT of effort. A Rating 7 commlink is easy to get after chargen. So that RCC is stuck at 6+1=7 Firewall and can run an Autosoft less due to that, the Deck can get 9 max but only when using a program slot and its best attribute for it, and the commlink has 7 even without a program. Meanwhile, the RCC has DP 5+1 max, the Deck would then be at 8 max with another program slot spent, and the commlink has 7 without a second thought. So the Firewall rating isn't a problem here.
-
Okay then how about instead you explain why when commlinks are so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ the basic computer to do this stuff costs so much more than a top of the line commlink?
Perhaps you could first explain why you think commlinks are "so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ"? For 5k you can get a commlink with Data Processing 6 and Firewall 6. That's a Limit of 6 for actions like Control Device, Disarm Data Bomb, Edit File, Jack Out, Matrix Perception, Matrix Search, and Trace Icon, as well as 6 dice to resist Brute Force, Control Device, Crash Program, Data Spike, Edit File, Format Device, Hack on the Fly, Hide, Reboot Device, Snoop, and Spoof Command. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a commlink can do all the things you'd need to work at the office, while also resisting hacking attempts.
-
Especially when a few years ago game time comlinks COULD run peograms.
Look, don't confuse all the 4e mechanics and 4e's attempt to keep some of the gear culturally-relevant OOC (i.e. making a smartphone a hacking platform) with actual in-setting stuff. The 4e commlink system was such a huge pain even for believability. It's easier to just retcon it away than try to explain why society went from decks to commlinks to solve all their high-end processing needs then went back to decks.
And it does sound like you want commlinks to do everything decks can, mainly because I don't think you've looked in-depth at what a commlink can do at a baseline. Which is, frankly, a lot, and virtually everything that a non-Matrix professional user might need, or even what a professional user might need while away from his work machine.
Now to be fair, in 4th ed, a commlink effectively was a deck, and decks didn't exist. But frankly that was a mistake, and that has been removed in 5th ed. So no one is going to buy into the 'it used to be that way so why not now' argument because they've accepted that it should never have been that way for the sake of the health of the game.
Yes this 100%
-
There's no need to retcon. They provided the basis for why commlinks can no longer do it in Storm Front. Basically, the Matrix protocols themselves changed. People had to write all new programs for the change.
Add in the probability the new programs are simply far too large for commlinks to use effectively and you've got the current situation. Commlinks can still use the old programs from before the change, but they are useless with the current protocols. So, they had to bring back cyberdecks.
-
I haven't read Storm Front. Thanks for the tip, think I'll pick it up and check it out.
-
Ddont have the time for a detailed reply right now but i didnt have a problem till i saw the line digger command consoles that stated they were more like comlinks than decks and they can run any non attack/sleeze program and I cant see why they can while a commlink cant.
-
They can in fact run attack/sleaze programs. But the commlink similarity is mainly that they aren't configured to Attack/Sleaze, while Riggers could really use Sleaze but have to miss out on it. It doesn't mean a commlink can run cyberprograms.
Look at it this way: Can a smartphone run the full version of Photoshop? It can run a basic photoshop app, sure, and fast, but it can't handle a huge program.
-
Ddont have the time for a detailed reply right now but i didnt have a problem till i saw the line digger command consoles that stated they were more like comlinks than decks and they can run any non attack/sleeze program and I cant see why they can while a commlink cant.
Commlinks are also effectively running non-hacking programs, albeit on a lesser level (and less effectively) than actually using the program. Don't read too much crunch into fluff.
That said, Commlink using Edit is like applying an Instagram filter to a photo or writing on a photo in Snapchat or making a list in a Note program. Easy, diceless stuff. Deck using Edit is PhotoShop, airbrushing, or professional video editing or word processing software software. Stuff that requires skill to use effectively, more complex options, and more processing power.
-
I was gonna write a reply, about the incredibly in-depth stuff that a blandly-named Edit program can do - you know, whipping up falsified evidence against that judge in six hours or less, altering a SIN so that it doesn't quite jive with 'you', that sort of thing - as compared to 'I put a quick text note on that PDF' that a commlink 'edit' program does, but Csjarrat beat me to it.
Edit's wireless bonus is ninjaing posts. ;D
-
I have four words for the OP
Danielle de la Mar.
(as others have suggested, read Storm Front)
-
You can still do pretty much anything you can do with a modern smartphone with your commlink - take and send photos, videos, and voice recordings, search for data or webpages, map a route, engage in social media, play games (in AR ,or VR with a simsense module on your commlink). You just can't treat that smartphone as if it's a computer loaded with Photoshop, run agents, etc.
Exactly. whilst i can write a 500 page report on my smartphone, i can do it a damn site better on my computer.
My phone has a word processor, a browser + a camera with a very basic editing suite, my computer's dedicated programs give me much more power and ability to create what i want to create, and see what I want to see.
Decks are much more versatile and the programs like Editor are the equivalent step up from the default nokia text editor to a fully fledged office productivity suite complete with photoshop and a high end professional video editing suite as well.
At this point you just have to give up and ignore the plot hole that 3 years ago in setting comlinks were the only computer device most people needed and possessed a tremendous amount of processing power. (Enough, notably, to run the most powerful editing software). Really, even now a high end smartphone has plenty of power to run a full featured office software set, the only reason not to use it like that is a matter of interface that sort of falls away when you get into neural interfaces.
The whole setting was warped to make Deckers more distinct again.
-
You can still do pretty much anything you can do with a modern smartphone with your commlink - take and send photos, videos, and voice recordings, search for data or webpages, map a route, engage in social media, play games (in AR ,or VR with a simsense module on your commlink). You just can't treat that smartphone as if it's a computer loaded with Photoshop, run agents, etc.
Exactly. whilst i can write a 500 page report on my smartphone, i can do it a damn site better on my computer.
My phone has a word processor, a browser + a camera with a very basic editing suite, my computer's dedicated programs give me much more power and ability to create what i want to create, and see what I want to see.
Decks are much more versatile and the programs like Editor are the equivalent step up from the default nokia text editor to a fully fledged office productivity suite complete with photoshop and a high end professional video editing suite as well.
At this point you just have to give up and ignore the plot hole that 3 years ago in setting comlinks were the only computer device most people needed and possessed a tremendous amount of processing power. (Enough, notably, to run the most powerful editing software). Really, even now a high end smartphone has plenty of power to run a full featured office software set, the only reason not to use it like that is a matter of interface that sort of falls away when you get into neural interfaces.
The whole setting was warped to make Deckers more distinct again.
No plot hole. Storm Front deals with the shift nicely.
-
I don't suppose I could get a summary of exactly HOW that book ties up these plot holes since I doubt I could find a copy here much less the time to read it. As aknowledged by Joush there's a huge mental disconnect between X years ago I can run office 365 on my comlink putting it up on my neural link and now suddenly I can't. THAT is my main issue here I'm not fighting to have a commlink run my power up program as one person claimed I'm fighting for a VALID reason I can use ingame to say ok yes I agree that seems odd but. If I do run a game when I have more spare time I can't really say "Here read this book then you'll understand."
-
Basic summary:
Corporations were tired of all of the hackers, tired of the Matrix being free to use, and tired of not having control. So, one corporation rewrote all of the Matrix protocols and GOD declared it the new Matrix. Storm Front goes into how none of the programs from the old wireless Matrix work with the current one and how the hacking community had to rewrite all of their hacking software from the ground up (it's also somewhat implied that the need to rewrite all software wasn't limited to just the hacking software). It also goes into how the new wireless Matrix was intentionally designed to somewhat emulate the old wired Matrix.
And then, when the new Matrix went live, they rolled out automatic updates for all of the commlinks. So it's either not have any Matrix access at all, or use the current protocols.
-
Ok that explains the shift to decks somewhat but it doesn't explain why a comlink that's identical to what it was before suddenly lost the ability to run a top end editing program as I'm sure a lot of people would like a bit of extra security (firewall program) ability to do work on their own time or for their own interests (editing program) etc. As I said I can see ruling out attack/sleeze but with the fluff I just can't think of an acceptable justification for why they can't run these things.
-
It's a hardware issue.
When changing the communication protocols, you sometimes require more hardware to run the new protocols. And they stated the reason this was done was to deal with hackers; likely, the new protocols require hardware that commlinks don't have for hacking. That also explains why decks made a comeback.
-
Ok that explains the shift to decks somewhat but it doesn't explain why a comlink that's identical to what it was before suddenly lost the ability to run a top end editing program
Because everything's running under a completely different environment - and thus the hardware requirements are different, as are the programs.
Or, looking at it another way - it's already running those programs, but the new cyberprograms are something else entirely and much more intensive.
-
OK - let me try one last time.
Commlinks can not run cyber programs because its the rules
The rules are not going to change (well - actually they almost certainly will if the passing of various editions have shown us anything - but - the rules are not going to change right at this moment!)
So instead, decide for yourself the fluff that suits the rules. It is a chance for you to be creative and invent your own verisimilitude. Use your powers for good !
-
And again, I really feel like I should point out that a Transys Avalon (which costs 5k) will have a Data Processing and Firewall of 6, which means a 5442 Hermes Chariot (which costs 123k) needs to use programs to perform better on those two aspects.
-
I just find it dumb you need a thing that is both restricted and comes with illegal stuff, that really isn't any bigger or badder than the commlinks to be able to run a program that doesn't use Atttack/Sleeze and available to everyone, especially with things that most people would probably use a lot.
Its kinda like having a "Civilian" vehicle and a "Military" Vehicle, and going on about how Civilian vehicles cannot take the freeway because they don't have enough power. Despite the freeway being open for anyone.
-
That's been my problem with this whole issue Triskavanksi however thanks to Rhat's post I think I've figured out a fluff explanation that accounts for my problems and WORKS. Specifically coming at it from the other direction where rather than saying "Commlinks can't run programs because its the rules" and running into all the logical problems with that you instead can say "Commlinks ARE running these programs as standard because everyone wants them (or at least the legal common ones) however cyberdecks and to a lesser extent rigger consoles because of their specialized and restricted nature tend to come as a blank slate and you need to load the programs on yourself as its assumed the skilled programmer buying it will probably create his own set of programs rather than buy them." and they can't run the attack/sleaze features because those require special hardware just like you can't use a wireless connection with the correct card/antanea on a desktop.
The important difference being rather than saying their running A program but CAN'T run these programs your saying they're ALREADY running these programs and thus you would gain no benefit from your second copy of Office 365, Norton etc. This explains the problems I've been having . . .
1) Why are decks so much more expensive? Because of the specialized hardware you need to run attack/sleaze programs or jump your conciousness into a vehicle.
2) Why do the equivalent commlinks have better stats than the deck? Because those stats include the top end common programs that aren't standard on a deck.
3) Why can decks and consoles only run a few programs while commlinks are effectively running multiple ones at once? Because of their reconfigurable or specialized nature and the need for the programs to interact with those different configurations tie up processing power.
4) Why hasn't anyone protested the loss of their favorite programs? Because the programs the average person would use are still there its just the hacking/illegal ones that can't be done without specialized hardware under the new system.
I think that will work. Really its amazing the progress you can make when people stop saying "You can't do that because of X" and work with you on what you want which is working out a way to explain X.
-
Yay !
Indeed the key is always to look for your own answer "Why", because at the end of the day, mechanics really only tell you the "what".
Let me dip back on some real life knowledge for another reason why a deck is so much more pricey than a commlink.
It is to do with what is called 'transmission security'. Obviously for a device to participate on the wireless matrix, it must transmit. But it just isn't as simple as "hey, lets broadcast on this frequency."
Zillions of devices all have to use the matrix at once, and they do so through various techniques, such as time division multiplexing, and frequency separation and/or sharing, and all sorts of goodies.
What that means is, at any given moment, a commlink could be transmitting on any one of a whole range of frequencies. And the pattern that it uses can be unique and specific, and if you don't know that pattern, you cant even begin to listen or communicate with the device, as you don't know where to send your transmission. That's transmission security, and as a decker, you want to be able to overcome that.
So a deck has to be able to interact simultaneously with loads of frequencies all at once, cast a big net as it were, in order to catch your commlink.
Which means that a deck has to have the transmission part of many commlinks. It is a parallel commlink, and thus right off the bat, expensive as several commlinks because it is several commlinks.
Do you need to know this? Not at all. The rules say that a commlink is a couple of grand and a deck is a few hundred grand. But sometimes you want to know, even if you don't need to. So you think about the why, and come up with your own reason. Maybe based on real world stuff, maybe based on logic and extrapolation, or maybe pseudoscientific gobbledygook or the phrase "Its magic."
The important thing is though - don't be asking "why is this the rule", because it just is. Instead ask "What fits the rule".
I wonder if anyone will understand what I mean here? Oh well.
-
Or maybe I could ask on the forums and someone who knows that sort of thing could tell me?
-
But there were all sorts of answers, which were not apparently hitting the mark ! Also isn't it nice to get out your own imagination too?
-
Most of the answers were "They can't do this because the rules say they can't do this" in different ways rather than actually trying to figure out a way to fix it and frankly that was just an attempt to let it all die down in truth I'm still not happy with them but its obvious I'm in the minority so I'm just walking away. Also no it wasn't nice to use my imagination even if it had been a viable explanation I'm hugely busy at work with only a few minutes here and there to grab free e.g. thinking about it driving home or while walking into town for lunch so I don't have the time to really sit down and work on this stuff. As it is I think I'm not going to have a job this time next year.
-
Most of the answers were "They can't do this because the rules say they can't do this" in different ways rather than actually trying to figure out a way to fix it and frankly that was just an attempt to let it all die down in truth I'm still not happy with them but its obvious I'm in the minority so I'm just walking away. Also no it wasn't nice to use my imagination even if it had been a viable explanation I'm hugely busy at work with only a few minutes here and there to grab free e.g. thinking about it driving home or while walking into town for lunch so I don't have the time to really sit down and work on this stuff. As it is I think I'm not going to have a job this time next year.
Yeah, I hate "Because the rules say so" as a reason why you can't do something fairly logically capable. I know sometimes it just has to happen for balance reasons, but there is usually a better way. Sometimes though, people tend to do a knee jerk reaction on what is "balanced"
Like if magic users can only speak in a Japanese accent. Because its in the rules. And if they spoke without one it would be too OP. (an extreme example, but its how I feel sometimes with some rules)
-
I just find it dumb you need a thing that is both restricted and comes with illegal stuff, that really isn't any bigger or badder than the commlinks to be able to run a program that doesn't use Atttack/Sleeze and available to everyone, especially with things that most people would probably use a lot.
Keep in mind that the decks in the book are, for the most part, amped up and upgraded for serious Matrix professionals, including corp/military spiders and runner deckers.
Certainly there are much cheaper "civilian" decks that may not be as great with the illegal stuff, but have all the power needed for, say, the Horizon graphic artist wageslave to use Edit to create amazing AR movies or whatever. It's professional-level stuff, but all perfectly legal (and thus cheaper compared to the runner-decker type stuff more akin to mil spec computing terminals than even high-powered civilian PCs). Or maybe for civilian-level stuff all you need is your commlink and a way to see AR.
-
1) Why are decks so much more expensive? Because of the specialized hardware you need to run attack/sleaze programs or jump your conciousness into a vehicle.
2) Why do the equivalent commlinks have better stats than the deck? Because those stats include the top end common programs that aren't standard on a deck.
3) Why can decks and consoles only run a few programs while commlinks are effectively running multiple ones at once? Because of their reconfigurable or specialized nature and the need for the programs to interact with those different configurations tie up processing power.
4) Why hasn't anyone protested the loss of their favorite programs? Because the programs the average person would use are still there its just the hacking/illegal ones that can't be done without specialized hardware under the new system.
1) Probably, yes. Decks are modular - their stats can be changed around. They're designed to run programs that can crack high-power security systems. Put another way in the metagame, look at how every archetype has costs. Sams have to afford lots of ware and gear to be competitive; mages need foci to be at the top of their game; mages and TMs both need karma to improve as well. It would be inappropriate for a primary archetype like decker to get away with spending 10k for everything he could possibly need when the other brig archetypes need to spend dozens or hundreds of thousands of nuyen to do the same in their field.
2) Because everybody probably wants their email to be secure, but not everybody needs the processing power of a deck, even for legal professional use. With AR, the commlink can probably replace a PC for most people. But those in professions that require a machine with high-processing, from advertisers to media etc, will want some sort of deck that can handle the upper end of programs. Also those better stats than a deck? The deck can be configured for those stats, and more. But don't compare the cheapest, crappiest deck to the best commlink. The latter will be excellent defensively and for most normal things a person will need, but will not be helpful when that person needs to perform even an easy hack.
3) I'd say because the kind of programs the commlink runs (read: free, by the rules) are not as powerful as the kind the deck uses (read: you pay for em). Again you're comparing instagram to photoshop.
4) Megacorps don't care. They make the rules, they changed the Matrix to suit them better. Evolve with it or be left behind. They don't care and are even more immune to "protests" than Exxon and Monsanto are today, especially on their own territory where they absolutely do not have to allow you to speak freely.
-
Basic summary:
Corporations were tired of all of the hackers, tired of the Matrix being free to use, and tired of not having control. So, one corporation rewrote all of the Matrix protocols and GOD declared it the new Matrix. Storm Front goes into how none of the programs from the old wireless Matrix work with the current one and how the hacking community had to rewrite all of their hacking software from the ground up (it's also somewhat implied that the need to rewrite all software wasn't limited to just the hacking software). It also goes into how the new wireless Matrix was intentionally designed to somewhat emulate the old wired Matrix.
And then, when the new Matrix went live, they rolled out automatic updates for all of the commlinks. So it's either not have any Matrix access at all, or use the current protocols.
Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there. It's early to say so, as I haven't gone though that book, but this might be up there with the racism in 1st edition for the stupidest fluff in Shadowrun.
-
Basic summary:
Corporations were tired of all of the hackers, tired of the Matrix being free to use, and tired of not having control. So, one corporation rewrote all of the Matrix protocols and GOD declared it the new Matrix. Storm Front goes into how none of the programs from the old wireless Matrix work with the current one and how the hacking community had to rewrite all of their hacking software from the ground up (it's also somewhat implied that the need to rewrite all software wasn't limited to just the hacking software). It also goes into how the new wireless Matrix was intentionally designed to somewhat emulate the old wired Matrix.
And then, when the new Matrix went live, they rolled out automatic updates for all of the commlinks. So it's either not have any Matrix access at all, or use the current protocols.
Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there. It's early to say so, as I haven't gone though that book, but this might be up there with the racism in 1st edition for the stupidest fluff in Shadowrun.
Funnily enough, the group I'm playing face-to-face with had that exact thing to say about the 4E Matrix. Given what he's had to say, apparently Shadowrun companies have been utter geniuses compared to real companies. This is actually the first piece of fluff he's been able to accept as realistic.
That's part of why I call Shadowrun an optimistic setting.
-
Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there.
I wouldn't be too surprised that RPG freelance writers are neither cryptology nor business experts and that their fluff explanations do not come from a subject-matter-expert-level perspective. I'm always surprised when I see people on the forums who are apparently tech experts deriding the freelancers' methods for helping the new crunch come into compliance with historical, canon fluff, for not having their same industry knowledge/experience. It doesn't bother me that Catalyst doesn't hire cryptographers as their freelancers, since "knowledge that allows conformation to real world principles" isn't at the top of their priority list for people who can write about and flesh out the world.
-
Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there.
I wouldn't be too surprised that RPG freelance writers are neither cryptology nor business experts and that their fluff explanations do not come from a subject-matter-expert-level perspective. I'm always surprised when I see people on the forums who are apparently tech experts deriding the freelancers' methods for helping the new crunch come into compliance with historical, canon fluff, for not having their same industry knowledge/experience. It doesn't bother me that Catalyst doesn't hire cryptographers as their freelancers, since "knowledge that allows conformation to real world principles" isn't at the top of their priority list for people who can write about and flesh out the world.
I'm more entertained when I see those same people complain about the release rate.
Research takes time. Coordinated research takes longer.
Coordinated research subject to business pressure for an industry having nothing to do with the setting? Heh.
-
The question that comes to mind when I compare commlinks to cyberdecks isn't "why can't commlinks run common cyberprograms?"...
Instead, I ask, "Why do all deckers have to be rich?"
Better hardware gives an incentive to upgrade, of course. But even the wimpiest, bottom of the line cyberdeck costs 50k, and a passable midrange deck (the Microtronica Azteca 200) costs more than a permanent Low lifestyle. That's before you buy a datajack, programs, various other cyberware or bioware that enhances your hacking skills, etc.
It's a strange disconnect, because I find it hard to believe there are that many SINless folks out there that have the resources to own a piece of hardware that costs more than a house. Not to mention that that hardware is highly illegal, and incredibly fragile. One bad run, and your deck is locked away in a Lone Star evidence room or fried from enemy IC. Your standard gunbunny can lose all of his equipment and buy the minimum he needs to function for a few thousand nuyen. Even riggers have an easier time replacing equipment than deckers. It's one of the few things I didn't like about 5th edition. 4th may have made decking equipment too cheap, but I think 5th went too far in the other direction.
-
This has already been explained, but I think a lot of the confusion about this kind of topic comes from people familiar with 4th edition coming into 5th edition. Those of us that remember the PDA rules from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions don't seem to be as bothered by the commlink/cyberprogram "issue." Fact is the commlink is little more than a smart phone. Even if it had a lot of processing power, a lot of it gets taken up by the applications that are already installed. These applications (for all devices) are what makes up the composite scores of Firewall, Data Processing, Attack, Sleaze, Noise Reduction, and Sharing. This is a really simple aggregation of a very complex topic, for a LOT of reasons that have been beaten with a stick by now. So this topic is as dead as the horse that we've all been beating trying to explain this topic to people since day 1 of 5th edition's release.
On the optimistic side: I'm hopeful that Data Trails will contain rules for building and upgrading cyberdecks. These rules might involve the heavy modification of commlinks as a base unit, thus giving clarity on this topic while providing some interesting options for poorer characters.
-
The reason you don't make a 500 page document on a smartphone isn't because the smartphone lacks tha powers, but because a smartphone has a tiny little keyboard screen.
There were people in the past who made 1000 page documents on 500mb of ram. Now smartphones currently have 2 to 3 gb of ram. My computer at home had been running at 2gb of ram.
And honestly, a deck is little more than a smart phone tablet.
-
I still say it's a hardware issue caused by the new protocols. Specifically, the new protocols require hardware that simply is beyond the capacity of a commlink to hold. That resolves the problem nicely and sets up a possibility for later equipment for modifying both commlinks and decks (and, maybe, cobbling a deck out of a commlink, some extra parts, and a lot of glue).
-
The reason you don't make a 500 page document on a smartphone isn't because the smartphone lacks tha powers, but because a smartphone has a tiny little keyboard screen.
There were people in the past who made 1000 page documents on 500mb of ram. Now smartphones currently have 2 to 3 gb of ram. My computer at home had been running at 2gb of ram.
And honestly, a deck is little more than a smart phone tablet.
Notably, the Fifty Shades of Grey books were apparently typed on a smartphone.
Oh, and that's nothing for processing power vs book length. A Song of Ice and Fire is written on a 386 with around 8 megs of ram.
-
Which is why I have such a problem with this. I mean how can you even call something a "common" program when the gear that runs it is (a) restricted, (b) costs per deck for the basic model enough to live on for nearly a year in comfort and for the (acceptable mid-range) enough to live on for life and (c) is apparently only used by the extremely wealthy who are tech savy enough to write their own programs? Where do baby deckers come from for that matter? I mean at 50k plus licensing no ones going to be buying a basic deck for the kid to play around on and develop their hacking/cyberwarfare skiills now are they? Maybe I wouldn't have as much of a problem if we had something in between but when I can stroll into JB Hi-Fi and see HTC One = $700 and Generic Laptop X = $400 there is a major disconnect in the concept especially given the decisions to do this where made while developing the game in the last few years. That's not "I'm not a business/tech expert" that's "I still use a landline and no computer" level.
Now maybe its made for balance reasons, maybe its made for flavour reasons because the designers felt decks where an integral part of the setting and frankly I don't care. I created this thread asking for help to create a fluff reason that would EXPLAIN why this world works this way when anyone who uses technology today is going to look at these design decisions and have the same issue today. I was hoping someone who is actually a tech expert could maybe explain a way to justify/explain this but all I got as I said was a bunch of "the rules say this" or "the decks are more powerful" when they aren't more powerful overall. That is deck A may be better than commlink B but commlink B has higher device rating, processing power, etc than deck C and you aren't going to convince me by saying its spread out more. That's like saying the Lenova G585 (2GB Ram, 2 core 1.48GHZ processor) can run programs the Samsung Galaxy S5 (2GB Ram, Quadcore 2.5GHZ processor) because its more versatile even though they have the exact same RAM and the phone has better processing power (plus in shadowrun I'm not limited to touch screen and a mini-keypad but can call up a virtual full scale keyboard and all sorts of other options).
-
A basic deck is not the same as the basic thing a normal computer consumer is going to buy. For 99% of consumer needs, from personal spreadsheets to video games to writing book reports, a commlink + AR is going to be all you need.
Decks are not the analogue to consumer PCs. (Commlinks aren't really either, but they're closer).
I think this has been said several times and i'm not sure exactly what is hard to get about that.
-
Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.
-
Senko, the reason why a computer expert, and even those of us with knowledge of computers, can't tell you anything other than what the rules say is because this isn't our technology; we don't even have a baseline for if their computers still use binary. Without any idea of how the systems actually work, all we can do is use what are at best guesses. As Whiskeyjack points out, these are not even really tech pieces that can compare to tech we have in real life.
Thus, I guess it's a hardware issue caused by the new protocols. Why? Because it's an easy handwave and it's one that opens up all kinds of future expansion on.
-
I questioned, and continued to question, why you assume that Device Rating describes a specific processing level - I don't find that assumption justified.
Specifically, I would suggest that Device Rating actually describes the relationship between the resources the system has available and the sort of demands that are placed upon it - and since a commlink has much less demand placed upon it, it can more directly dedicated towards the things represented by Device Rating, Data Processing, and Firewall, while a deck has to dedicate it's resources towards Device Rating, Data Processing, Firewall, Attack, Sleaze, and its Program Rating. An RCC must dedicate those resources towards its Device Rating, Data Processing, Firewall, Sharing, Program Rating, and various other functions.
Thus, that DR4 Deck actually does have more processing power than a DR 6 commlink; the relationship is similar to that of a commlink versus a proper computer.
-
Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.
Can your off-the-shelf Dell run the kind of software needed to render the CGI for, say, the Avatar movie? For PS4/XBox Next games?
This is what I'm talking about. There are basically 3 tiers of users in Shadowrun.
1) Normal people. They check email, shop online, maybe need a good word processor or spreadsheet program, play video games, watch movies, etc. IMO they would do most of this on a commlink - cheap, with basic-level programs. The equivalent of the MS Office Suite and apps available on modern smartphones.
2) Computer professionals. They need something more than a commlink to create AR/VR advertising and media (airbrushing photos, rendering scenes in movies, creating brand-new high-end video games). They need some undefined piece of gear between a commlink and a full hot-sim deck. Something that can run high-end programs but doesn't need to break through encryption. Think the software used by professional film and sound editors and video game companies. Usually this equipment will be provided by their job.
3) Hacker-level users. This includes corporate and military spiders as well as shadowrunners. They use decks pretty much exclusively, whether for legal or illegal purposes, because they need to break into (or defend) heavily encrypted or protected areas.
I think you're mostly asking about what the equipment group 2 would need. I have no idea. It's somewhere between a commlink and a deck. The game presumes that a runner who wants to do that stuff will be a decker and just own a deck.
-
Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.
Can your off-the-shelf Dell run the kind of software needed to render the CGI for, say, the Avatar movie? For PS4/XBox Next games?
This is what I'm talking about. There are basically 3 tiers of users in Shadowrun.
1) Normal people. They check email, shop online, maybe need a good word processor or spreadsheet program, play video games, watch movies, etc. IMO they would do most of this on a commlink - cheap, with basic-level programs. The equivalent of the MS Office Suite and apps available on modern smartphones.
2) Computer professionals. They need something more than a commlink to create AR/VR advertising and media (airbrushing photos, rendering scenes in movies, creating brand-new high-end video games). They need some undefined piece of gear between a commlink and a full hot-sim deck. Something that can run high-end programs but doesn't need to break through encryption. Think the software used by professional film and sound editors and video game companies. Usually this equipment will be provided by their job.
3) Hacker-level users. This includes corporate and military spiders as well as shadowrunners. They use decks pretty much exclusively, whether for legal or illegal purposes, because they need to break into (or defend) heavily encrypted or protected areas.
I think you're mostly asking about what the equipment group 2 would need. I have no idea. It's somewhere between a commlink and a deck. The game presumes that a runner who wants to do that stuff will be a decker and just own a deck.
Though an RCC, given it's ability to run cyberprograms, is cheaper option for such capability.
-
Well, we the people demand commdecks then.
-
Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.
This topic was discussed in a thread about what other technology exists for computing. It was determined that terminals and such would likely still exist in some capacity, but that (cold) VR and AR workspaces were more likely the standard. With the proliferation of trodes, datajacks, and cloud computing, commlinks are literally all you would need for probably 90% of the computing that a user does on a daily basis. However, the topic did come up that nexi would likely still need to exist, and of course there are potential security issues when people use their commlinks for 90% of their work. So the consensus was that we'd have to wait for Data Trails to come out in order to get more information. In fact, this is identical to the way that computing has been handled in all other versions of Shadowrun. The core book always gives you what you need, but not what you want. The supplemental book provides what you want, not what you need.
-
@Slowdeck
I know, but they're supposed to be semi-related so if someone can provide an explanation why this could happen in the real world it could be carried over.
@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .
Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5
giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.
@ Whiskey Jack, Rhat and Triskavanski
Sort of . . . I still can't see why a commlink can't run a common program but RCC's would work as a mid-tier thing if it weren't for the fact their even bigger than a deck (presumably because of the drone control stuff). I really would prefer more of a . . .
TIER 1
Regular people using commlinks for all their day to day functions from browsing the web to high level CGI graphics manipulations with the level of what they need relating to the commlink. E.g. a metalink 1/1/1 can't handle much more than the basics and if you want to do heavy video editing or the like you need the farlight Caliban at 7/7/7. Afterall the caliban at 8k is almost two months living expenses at the middle class range. However they can run common programs to devote a considerable amount of their power in a given area e.g running the toolbox program to maximize memory processing giving you a +1 to your data processing attribute and allowing the kids to run slightly better games than they would otherwise.
Tier 2
Riggers paying more for their much larger RCC's in order to have the dedicated hardware to allow a metahuman-inhuman interface e.g. interpreting their desire to run faster into accelerating the car. Can run normal programs + interface with vehicles/buildings etc.
Tier 3
Deckers either legitimate or illegal who need dedicated hardware allowing them access to the attack/sleaze options and the only group who in addition to common prgrams can run hacker ones and who have to pay signicantly more for their gear.
I mean seriously look at the description of the editing program . . .
Edit: THis program makes editing easier with a smart interface that learns you style and can even give you suggestions. Add 2 to the data processing limit for any edit tests made while this is running.
How is that not something a person would want running on their commlink? For that matter how is that open to abuse? It doesn't let you access something you shouldn't, it doesn't let you use it for non-editing functions. It just gives you a nice +2 for when your writing up your notes for the coming meeting, creating an AR add, icon, etc.
Same with browse . . .
Browse: This handy broswer and search engine cuts the time for a matrix search action in half.
Basically you find the entries on X in less time giving you more time to do other things. A decker is still going to be better at you but they can now spend their time sleazing their way into the banks file systems and editing the correct things there while your doing a general matrix search to help in your disguises on entering. For the non-criminally inclined digging up information on that ancient composer Barthaven for the kids history report.
@Namikaze
Fine, fair enough but considering how long we're likely to be waiting for that lets try and come up with some justification for the now.
-
Well, the protocols issue being hardware related actually is something that comes up in real life. Items such as dongles, USB authenticators, and similar tech all requires your computer have the right components; despite the fact your old computer may still be able to run the program, they can easily lack the necessary kind of plug-in to operate with the new authentication. It's also a pretty massive issue with the internet itself; there are separate communication protocols for wired and wireless systems, and you require a device with the right equipment to even receive the signals for the protocols to be useful.
It also comes up a lot with computer games. It doesn't matter the software; if your computer doesn't have the hardware to render the game, the fact it has eight thousand times the processing power needed is not doing you any good.
Either one of those could be the issue that commlinks are running into. Notably, both of those issues (if they are the issue) are fixable and it would be easy to include rules in Data Trails to fix them.
-
@Namikaze
Fine, fair enough but considering how long we're likely to be waiting for that lets try and come up with some justification for the now.
Thing is, we've discussed this topic to death. There's no explanation that makes everyone happy. And the fact is, there won't ever be an explanation that makes everyone happy. As nice as it would be to make sense out of this futuristic technology, it has no real-world equivalency that can be explained or even used as a baseline. The developers do their best to try to predict what will happen, but they can't possibly predict how it happens. We have AR right now, in our real world, on my cell phone. This is a good 40 years before the Awakening, and about 50 years prior to Shadowrun 1st edition's timeline. Why didn't 1st edition have AR? Because the devs couldn't have predicted it.
This topic is best discussed when there aren't any references made to Shadowrun. The reason being, that Shadowrun has no basis for making the assumption that commlinks will exist, let alone how they will work. What's a better, more rational topic of discussion is to talk about what could have lead to the Matrix in the first place. How do we get our current technology to the first stages of the Matrix, and how do we make it better than that, improve on it in such a way that everyone can use it and no one can exploit it for evil. Those are the questions that we should be asking, since those are questions that might possibly someday have a satisfactory answer. These kinds of questions about futuristic technology are right up there with asking how magic works, because that's what it is. It's technological magic.
-
Problem being its technological magic with gaping plotholes you can drive a truck through. Its not just it does this because its magic but it does this because magic and makes sense by its own rules.
Also I thought the awakening happened in 2012? Given the huge riots, bombings, dragon attacks, bug attacks, devolution of governments, lose of technical research, new avenues of research I can see technology developing in different ways some faster, some slower what as I said I have a problem with is things that worked one way and now suddenly don't without any real explanation even though the rules would seem to support them working the original way and I can't even see a legitimate balance reason to change them.
-
@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .
Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5
giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.
You're somewhat missing my point - I'll break it down a bit more: I'm suggesting that Data Processing isn't processing power, but rather the portion of the devices resources that can be put towards crunching data; these are two very different things.
-
You've pretty much got to go Doctor Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and love 5th edition, if you want to make peace with this.
There's no logical reason, in setting, for the changes to how things work. Trolls are much slower now, comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course, cybernetics that were installed in 2061 now need wireless to function, despite not being built with any wireless capability and not requiring it for 13 years.
And that's just the changes. It leaves aside the rules that are just stupid.
@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .
Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5
giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.
You're somewhat missing my point - I'll break it down a bit more: I'm suggesting that Data Processing isn't processing power, but rather the portion of the devices resources that can be put towards crunching data; these are two very different things.
So Data Processing becomes totally arbitrary and means something else for every device, requiring it be defined for each device independently of each other?
-
It looks that way ::) as I said the book says a devices processing power is equal to its device rating but a data processing value of 3 would be the same whether its for the Renraku Sensai (device rating 3, data processing 3, firewall 3), a Radio Shack Remote Controller (Device Rating 2, Data Processing 3, Firewall 3) or a Microeck Summit (4/3/3/2 with one of the 3's in processing) or you'd be rolling different dice each time Rhat. That is I edit a file with my Renraku and roll 3 dice, with my control rig I roll 2 dice and with the Microdeck 8 (for examples sake) and we don't. A data processing of 3 is = to 3 dice ALWAYS.
I know I'm harping on this but its the difference between commlinks not being able to hack (doesn't make sense for the device in real world terms but does in game terms because its lacking vital pieces of hardware) and a commlink not being able to run a fairly straightforward editing program (because it says so and the only way you can make it work is if you houserule what the book says to not mean what the books says in which case you may as well houserule them to be able to run common programs).
Which is what I'm just going to do I refuse to accept "because the rules say so" as an explanation when I can't see a balance reason for those rules to exist in the first place and since according to Namikaze no one's even been able to come up with a fluff reason to justify this much less a crunch one I'm just going to houserule commlinks can runn common programs.
-
It looks that way ::) as I said the book says a devices processing power is equal to its device rating but a data processing value of 3 would be the same whether its for the Renraku Sensai (device rating 3, data processing 3, firewall 3), a Radio Shack Remote Controller (Device Rating 2, Data Processing 3, Firewall 3) or a Microeck Summit (4/3/3/2 with one of the 3's in processing) or you'd be rolling different dice each time Rhat. That is I edit a file with my Renraku and roll 3 dice, with my control rig I roll 2 dice and with the Microdeck 8 (for examples sake) and we don't. A data processing of 3 is = to 3 dice ALWAYS.
I know I'm harping on this but its the difference between commlinks not being able to hack (doesn't make sense for the device in real world terms but does in game terms because its lacking vital pieces of hardware) and a commlink not being able to run a fairly straightforward editing program (because it says so and the only way you can make it work is if you houserule what the book says to not mean what the books says in which case you may as well houserule them to be able to run common programs).
Which is what I'm just going to do I refuse to accept "because the rules say so" as an explanation when I can't see a balance reason for those rules to exist in the first place and since according to Namikaze no one's even been able to come up with a fluff reason to justify this much less a crunch one I'm just going to houserule commlinks can runn common programs.
If you'd like me to suggest a simpler house rule just play 4th edition instead.
It's worth it just for Chummer, really.
-
Senko, actually, I think I have the resolution. I considered the possibility the fluff may hold an answer in a sentence and did some digging. Here's what I came up with:
"It’s got all of the necessary software already loaded, but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools."
That's from page 221. It notes, in the prior part of the paragraph, everything a commlink can do. And this is what is said about cyberprograms:
"Programs (technically cybeprograms if they’re for the Matrix) are files you can run on your deck. While a program is running, it makes your deck better or gives you more utility."
From page 243.
So, here's what it looks like: Fluff-wise, everything listed as a program in the core rulebook is specifically designed to work on the hardware of a deck. But, also, commlinks don't have room for this because they already come with the necessary software.
I suggest ruling instead that a commlink already has the equivalent of every common program except Configurator (it's useless for commlinks) for free.
-
comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course
This is false. Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks.
Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did. Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.
-
Problem being its technological magic with gaping plotholes you can drive a truck through. Its not just it does this because its magic but it does this because magic and makes sense by its own rules.
And magic and the astral plane don't have these same gaping plotholes? The Watergate Rift? The shedim? The Horrors? FAB? These are all things that are completely bizarre and get explained away all the time by the fact that they deal with principles we don't understand. That's not the same as a gaping plothole - that's just something beyond comprehension.
-
comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course
This is false. Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks.
Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did. Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.
Two years ago in setting, a comlink could run any program you liked.
Now, they can't.
-
comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course
This is false. Commlinks are general computing devices, but they lack the hard- and software required for certain specialist tasks.
Furthermore, there ARE in game reasons for it, and there are valid reasons for people to have made the decisions that they did. Technical feasibility, on the other hand, cannot be commented on; we only have basic theoretical ideas about how networking in SR4-5 work, because other than some academic work the protocols we're talking about don't resemble anything in the modern day.
Two years ago in setting, a comlink could run any program you liked.
Now, they can't.
Because new kinds of programs exist, which are written for a platform other than commlinks.
After all, why is it, do you think, that they're specifically named "cyberprograms", unlike the programs seen in SR4?
-
Because new kinds of programs exist, which are written for a platform other than commlinks.
After all, why is it, do you think, that they're specifically named "cyberprograms", unlike the programs seen in SR4?
To add to this. In 4th edition, you had to buy an operating system and every single program you ever intended to use on your commlink. Now, you just buy the commlink and all that stuff is installed by default. The cyberprograms that you run on your deck are different specifically because they are not the same as they were in 4th edition. Or any other edition, for that matter.
Storm Front should be required reading for anyone coming from 4th edition to 5th edition. They do a good job of explaining that things changed drastically in a relatively short period of time. They also explained that these changes were kept in the dark to everyone but those who absolutely needed to know. There are still secrets in Shadowrun that the runners of the world simply haven't uncovered. Perhaps the core book should have explained this a little better, but I think if you go at it with a fresh pair of eyes that haven't been accustomed to 4th edition rules, the book is fairly clear that cyberdecks and commlinks are not even really all that related to one another.
I'll end my statements on this topic with a quote directly from the core book, page 214:
The paradox of the Matrix is this: to be an ace hacker, you need to understand it—but no one really understands it.
This topic is done. We've hashed this out across a dozen threads, hundreds of posts, and it all boils down to that one sentence.
-
This topic is done. We've hashed this out across a dozen threads, hundreds of posts, and it all boils down to that one sentence.
Yeah, but I have pretty much come down on the side of "SR 5 is badly written" rather then "unknowable mystery".
-
@Slowdeck
See my answer to Rhat for the space thing.
@Rhat
So why not write them for commlinks I seriously find it hard to believe a program takes up so much space you can't fit one of them (for the purposes of argument) on a commlink but can fit the entire run of Neil the Barbarian on there or for that matter you can't fit a browse program on your commlink but can fit Return to Planet Wolfenstein 2030 on it. A top end game is going to take up a lot more resources than most of these programs would and you can put those on the commlink, in fact you can apparently put several page 223 . . .
So where do you store all of the things you want to keep? Pictures from your Aunt Edna's wedding, credit information, your SIN, every book and movie you've bought, all the programs you might want to run-all of it fits on your commlink (or cyberdeck if you prefer). In fact, every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standrads. Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare..
Please note the bolded information. A specific reference to programs and the statement there's enough space for ALL the books and movies you've purchased. Also that they have a MASSIVE amount of storage space and that incidents where a problem comes up (due to program size or quality of device) are EXTREMELY RARE and a gamemaster decision. In other words that commlink really should be able to run a common editing or browsing program unless your telling me that Microsoft Office 2070 has become so large it takes up more space than dozens of movies, games, multimedia images etc.
If there's an ingame balance reason to deny those programs to a commlink please tell me, its part of why I created this topic so that if there was a genuine balance reason not to allow it I could be aware of it before making any decisions. In the absence of that and a believeable explanation from the perspective of the world in question I'm going to allow commlinks to run these programs.
@Namikaze
I'm just going to ignore that last post as I'm not that familiar with the setting so I don't know what those things are beyond a general knowledge and couldn't make any informed comments. They may well have similar gaping holes (and I'll post about them as and when I find them probably) but right now the magic system as I'm familarizing myself with it makes sense internally unlike this. The other thing to bear in mind is that I'm coming to SR5 fresh, I haven't played 4th edition in fact my knowledge of it solely stems from things like corporate enclaves and 6th world almanac that were reocmmended to me for other interests (japan) and I haven't even read the 4th ed core rulebook.
-
Senko, it's not a matter of storage capacity. It's a matter of already having the equivalent software for common programs. Thus, you have no space for the deck program because you already have what pretty much amounts to the same program... only, you got it for free.
For the others? Hardware issue.
-
@Rhat
So why not write them for commlinks I seriously find it hard to believe a program takes up so much space you can't fit one of them (for the purposes of argument) on a commlink but can fit the entire run of Neil the Barbarian on there or for that matter you can't fit a browse program on your commlink but can fit Return to Planet Wolfenstein 2030 on it. A top end game is going to take up a lot more resources than most of these programs would and you can put those on the commlink, in fact you can apparently put several page 223 . . .
So where do you store all of the things you want to keep? Pictures from your Aunt Edna's wedding, credit information, your SIN, every book and movie you've bought, all the programs you might want to run-all of it fits on your commlink (or cyberdeck if you prefer). In fact, every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standrads. Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare..
Please note the bolded information. A specific reference to programs and the statement there's enough space for ALL the books and movies you've purchased. Also that they have a MASSIVE amount of storage space and that incidents where a problem comes up (due to program size or quality of device) are EXTREMELY RARE and a gamemaster decision. In other words that commlink really should be able to run a common editing or browsing program unless your telling me that Microsoft Office 2070 has become so large it takes up more space than dozens of movies, games, multimedia images etc.
If there's an ingame balance reason to deny those programs to a commlink please tell me, its part of why I created this topic so that if there was a genuine balance reason not to allow it I could be aware of it before making any decisions. In the absence of that and a believeable explanation from the perspective of the world in question I'm going to allow commlinks to run these programs.
It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of power - and a "high-end game" is a relative thing; a high end computer game is very different from a high end game on a tablet.
And certainly there is a balance reason - the functionality of these programs, such as time reduction on Matrix searches, are meant to be the province of Matrix specialists.
-
Which should not be the same as deckers when its because of a program a rigger can be absolutely lousy at the matrix beyond jumping into his vehicles but he can still use them.
As for them being already on there that doesn't work unless we get the benefit e.g. +2 to data orocessing when editing but we don't a metalink always has a data processing of 1 no change.
-
It's not a matter of space, it's a matter of power - and a "high-end game" is a relative thing; a high end computer game is very different from a high end game on a tablet.
Much, much less then you might imagine. X-Com, Enemy Unknown, for example, is perfectly capable of running on a computer or a tablet with enough power. Pretty much anything that uses the Unreal Engine 4 is going to be easy to port from one device to another.
Specialized hardware is very much a thing, but programs can be quite reasonably written to work with some modification on many, many different platforms so long as there are the resources available.
It seems odd to say that you need an explicate, really expensive bit of hardware to run comparatively cheap helper programs.
-
Especially when you add rigger command consoles into the equation. The cheapest one "scratch built junk" has a device rating of 1, data processing of 3, firewall of 2, CAN run common programs and costs 1,400 nuyen and also functions as a commlink in addition to its other capabikities (sadly its yhe size of a briefcase I.e. even bigger than a deck which can go in your head.
-
Especially when you add rigger command consoles into the equation. The cheapest one "scratch built junk" has a device rating of 1, data processing of 3, firewall of 2, CAN run common programs and costs 1,400 nuyen and also functions as a commlink in addition to its other capabikities (sadly its yhe size of a briefcase I.e. even bigger than a deck which can go in your head.
Huh, Decks and Control Consoles have the same mod to conceal them. I thought that means that they are about the same size, but I'm also ready to just say that it's another area of the rules that aren't internally consistent or logical.
-
Senko: Riggers are under the Matrix Specialist umbrella from a different angle, and RCCs clearly have more power than commlinks.
Joush: I've made it clear I'm suggesting commlinks don't have the resources. Also, X-Com is a terrible example. A fantastic game, but a terrible example. There are so many ways to make a game that works the way X-Com does really damn efficient with its draw cycles.
-
X-Com isn't a high-end computer game. It uses out-of-date graphics and an engine that was showing its age a year before it was replaced (the latest X-Com is Unreal Engine 3, not 4).
Rigger consoles themselves are specialized to drone management. But, notice something... both cyberdecks and RCCs are noticably larger than commlinks, and both can handle cyberprograms while commlinks can't. That speaks to the issue being hardware that the commlink doesn't have but which they do.
-
Or the hardware could be a drone/human interface and attack/sleaze hardware respectively
-
Or the hardware could be a drone/human interface and attack/sleaze hardware respectively
Possible, sure, but doesn't fit the facts as well.
-
This topic is still going? One would think that the SR5 mechanics would offer enough illustration that 5th Edition programs are different from 4th Edition programs:
In 4th, you'd roll Skill + [Program Rating], where your commlink quality limited the Program Rating; so how good you were was determined by how skilled you were and how good the program you were using was.
In 5th, you roll Skill + [Logic/Intuition/Willpower/Resonance]: programs no longer do half the work for you, they just assist you by increasing your Limit, giving defense and damage soak dice, or giving various little bonuses.
That is a pretty big change to how programs work, and more than enough to justify 5th Edition commlinks being different from 4th Edition commlinks.
-
Actually the topics gotten kind of derailed considering I created it to try and work out a way to justify the way commlinks cant run common programs from an ingame perspective but i gave up on that a page ago and with no actual balance reason to keep it I'll be houseruling they can.
-
The balance reason is there, you even mentioned it yourself. An 80 nuyen program totally replacing a 2000 piece of hardware is enough of a reason, I should think.
If you do house rule it, just make sure you understand the implications. And really, the crux of your argument seems to have been Edit; this won't give you any benefit because you'll never need to actually roll Edit File on a file you own...
-
If you'd like me to suggest a simpler house rule just play 4th edition instead.
The 4th ed Matrix mechanics are ****ing terrible.
Asking why "trolls run slower than they did 5 years ago" is trying to find a fluff explanation for crunch. There isn't one and there's no point reading into it. It's a pure rule change with no tie to the IC or the setting (unlike the Matrix change). This kind of rule change happens all the time when games put out a new edition and existing old rules are altered. It's just like asking "a few years ago recoil wasn't near as bad for my same gun." There's a pure OOC reason for the change with no IC reason. Not a big deal.
Actually the topics gotten kind of derailed considering I created it to try and work out a way to justify the way commlinks cant run common programs from an ingame perspective but i gave up on that a page ago and with no actual balance reason to keep it I'll be houseruling they can.
Look if you refuse to read the in-setting reasoning for it that has been cited time and again (Storm Front), there is absolutely zero reason to keep engaging you on the subject or suggesting you actually read it. You may not like the canonical answers provided, but they have been provided. If you don't like them, fine, but you're not going to get a more updated answer to "why is this the case, in-setting" than the ones already provided by the canon.
-
People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.
As to the bit about trolls, it was really just an example of arbitrary and unnecessary changes in SR5 that suggest the writer did not understand the previous rules or seriously consider the impact of the new ones. Trolls and dwarves, for some reason, now move at the same pace, something that is hard to logically envision when trolls are supposed to be eight and a half feet tall.
-
People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.
I remember reading horror stories about how if you involved the Matrix in a run, it was basically 2 hours of the decker doing stuff while everyone else twiddled their thumbs.
-
People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.
I'm happy with "Matrix = recolored magic" for the very simple reason that resolution of Matrix tasks seems to go much quicker and the rules are simpler in this edition. And Logic actually matters to hacking rolls where it wasn't a factor at all before.
Furthermore, quicker Matrix task resolution means that non-decker players are sitting around with thumbs up their asses for a shorter period of time than in 4th.
The game's playability and minimizing non-matrix-players' inability-to-play time is of paramount importance to me above and beyond understanding why certain fluff changed from one edition to another and why it might be considered "unrealistic."
I remember reading horror stories about how if you involved the Matrix in a run, it was basically 2 hours of the decker doing stuff while everyone else twiddled their thumbs.
That was my lived experience in 4th, yes. And as the guy who usually played a hacker or technomancer: it wasn't even any fun for me and the GM to be doing that for 2 hours. It was tedious. I don't know why we insisted on continuing to involve the Matrix. I guess to stay true to the setting, but it wasn't enjoyable. The 20th Anniversary made some of it better, but not by much.
I can only imagine what it was like for the other players. Usually they just ordered and went to pick up the pizzas when it was time for me and the GM to do Matrix legwork. When middle-of-run hacking came up the smokers usually went outside for a cigarette. Because it wasn't even fun to watch, let alone to play. Astral plane stuff would be similar if it was anywhere near as complicated; thankfully it isn't.
-
Yeah, 4th edition Matrix did have a lot of flaws. Even now, however, it's still a kazdu trap of GMing. Make sure that if running a game you don't throw in too much or too little for the hacker to do, because they still don't interact with the same sectors as everyone else when performing common hacking task like gaining access, disabling alarms or collecting data. Give them a few chances to hack and put their name on the list for the nightclub where they need to get in for Plot Reasons, but don't make the whole information gathering and legwork phase online.
As far as combat hacking*, I don't care much for it, mostly because it's vastly more dangerous for NPCs then it is for PCs. An NPC it doesn't matter much if they get cyberware bricked or ruined, it's a combat debuff that is only relevant as long as the NPC is in the game. For a PC, the long term effects and the threat of combat hacking force changes in behavior or just changes character builds. (The value of a lot of cyberware is greatly reduced to many players by the new rules.)
*Hacking in physical combat, that is.
-
... wow. Not only is Senko still not getting it, and complaining that nobody's giving him reasons (which we have) or explanations (which we have) or concepts which explain the 'conversion' of 4th to 5th (which we have), but he's managed to pull more of his kindred out of the woodwork??
The disconnect is that you're reading 4th Edition as though it were the start of Shadowrun; it wasn't, and it ain't. The issue is that all the things you're talking and complaining about - whether that's bought-off-the-shelf commlinks and programs from 4th that can no longer do what a top-notch decker from 1st-3rd could do (used to be the only ones who could, and once again are), or the fact that in 4e, trolls are mysteriously slow (when in fact before 4e they were never fast) is easily explained out of game as being the developers and writers going 'okay, yeah, sorry, we screwed up, let's get the game back on track' and explained in-game by the fluff you've already been given.
If you're going to run a game, and if you insist on not taking the rules as the rules and the fluff as the fluff, then Senko, you are gonna have to either work it out yourself despite your terrible, terrible work load, or else you're going to have to actually listen to the people who are giving you several Very Reasonable Explanations and not working so goddamn hard at spouting crocodile tears and fighting them. Or you can do all the work to go back and get an understanding of the editions that existed before 4th, the Shadowrun world as it existed before 4th edition, and come to grips with the world as it's been described before your own personal 1e.
-
Hmmmmm did you miss my post saying I've not played ANY previous editions or my many posts saying its not the change from 4th to 5th but rather the lack of an internaly coherent reason for why commlinks can't run COMMON programs where RCCS can even though they cost about the same and have similar stats for money value, or perhaps the fact the book says they have all the space youd need yo run any programs you want? But still lets take a quick look at the "reasons given for this shall we?
1) It's the rules. Well um yes but its a rule that makes no sense to me so I'm trying and failing to figure out a way to justify it.
2) Read storm front. Not a whole let of help telling me to track down a book that deals with the conversion from 4th to 5th but sure u could track and buy something that might not do any good to someone who hasn't played 4th.
3) They don't have the space. Directly contradicted by the inbook text.
4) They don't have the processing power. Again contradicted this time by the ingame rules unless you start houseruling things.
5) Only decks can run programs. So can RCCS which the book states are more like commlinks than decks.
6) It would unbalance things. Yet I can spend 1.4k on a briefcase sized RCC and get the benefits of a commlink able to run programs so again why can't a regular commlink do that.
7) They're already running them all. No otherwise the metalink wouldnt have a 1 for it's data processing all the time.
So I've had really little to indicate a valid ingame reason for commlonks not running programs and again I HAVEN'T PLAYED 4th edition. My problem with this is as someone new to the setting and the others "coming out of the woodwork" as you put it have a similar problem with a rule that makes no sense from a balance or ingame sense unless you handwae it as this is a rule because this is a rule. I've had that before and while I can accept it if its required from a balance standpoint this doesnt even seem to do that.
-
The best chargen RCC has DR 5, 5 DP, 6 Firewall is and is 66k or 68k (depending on whether you believe the German book got it right). The best commlink at chargen has 6 DP and 6 Firewall for 5k nuyen. That is NOT similar stats for money value. The 1.4k RCC has only 3 DP and 2 Firewall, which cyberprograms can only boost to 4/3, so it's inferior to the 6/6 commlink.
8k RCC: 4/4 and 1 extra program through Virtual Machine max. 8k commlink: 7/7. If you really want the cyberprograms advantages that bad, just grab that cheap RCC, and accept that you're easier hacked.
-
I'm sure I'm going to regret trying to offer an explanation, but here we go.
Senko, try viewing it this way:
Commlinks are Iphones and Decks (and RCCs) are Android devices.
Commlinks have all the hardware to run "common" programs, but corporate overlords made sure they can't.
It is detailed in Storm Front, which is a wonderful read for anyone coming to SR, not just those who played SR4 before. As the SF stands, Corporations overhauled the whole of the Matrix and even the best hackers in the world didn't manage to crack the new system in full - game it somewhat, sure, but not crack.
So the common user can't install any cyberprograms (the ones listed as cyberprograms in the core) simply because their devices are "locked" like apple devices.
I reckon we will see rules for jail-breaking commlinks in the upcoming Matrix book. After all, there is an example in fluff and the whole Edge-hacking loophole.
But what do we say to the missing rules of the new edition, like drone modding and deck upgrades? Not today =P
-
Hmmmmm did you miss my post saying I've not played ANY previous editions or my many posts saying its not the change from 4th to 5th but rather the lack of an internaly coherent reason for why commlinks can't run COMMON programs where RCCS can even though they cost about the same and have similar stats for money value, or perhaps the fact the book says they have all the space youd need yo run any programs you want?
So you're demanding an explanation as to why your smartphone, which already runs the software you need to browse the matrix and edit files and do all those legal actions, and which can in fact run malicious code if you spend a point of Edge to remove the 'limit' of 0 on Sleaze and Attack for a single action, can't run the same specialized software (which only increases your potential) that a device specially designed to control murder machines can?
-
Wait you can use edge to hack from a comlink by using edge and your objecting to my having difficulty justifying not being able to run a dedicated browsing program? I'd think that was all the more reason for Comlinks being able to run programs as it would explain where kids learn decking skills and then went to a deck so they are able to do it all day long.
@Elektrycerze3
That would explain them not being able to run these programs but not why no ones making comlink variants. I mean look at all the threads on noise shutting down wireless items and tell me with a straight face someone who only has a metalink wouldn't want the noise reducing program.
I'm just reluctant to spend money on storm front if its only good for a conversion from 4th when the summary given earlier doesn't really seem to have any bearing on the problem, especially when I'm having enough trouble with some of these rules as is. You think its worth it even for someone like me who's been drawn in due to the magic/tech in the same setting and isn't familiar with previous editions?
-
Yes, Storm Front is absolutely worth the money, as people have told you umpteen times now...
I really can't state this with more clarity than this...
-
Take any commlink from the book and change its name - now you have a variant.
As for variants that have different stats and are able to run cyberprograms - nope. No variants as corporate overlords don't want you to have any. The IPhone is all you need. Move along.
It's that simple an explanation. It's a dystopia after all: people do what their corporate masters tell them.
Until Data Trails comes out, that is.
-
Storm Front is one of the best books you could buy simply because it is 100% fluff, and explains a LOT about what's been going on. From the Great Dragon Civil War, the beginnings of Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder, to the epic battle between Harlequin and Ghostwalker in the 16th street mall of Denver. It's got everything you'll need for all the major metaplot points in the future.
-
Wait you can use edge to hack from a comlink
GM's option, actually - the rules aren't clear about how things work when your Limit doesn't exist, that is, whether you could ever make a test at all in that circumstance.
-
Wait you can use edge to hack from a comlink by using edge and your objecting to my having difficulty justifying not being able to run a dedicated browsing program?
You already have a dedicated browsing program on your commlink. It's what gives you a Limit of 6 on Matrix Search and Matrix Perception when using your Rating-6 commlink.
-
Wait you can use edge to hack from a comlink by using edge and your objecting to my having difficulty justifying not being able to run a dedicated browsing program?
You already have a dedicated browsing program on your commlink. It's what gives you a Limit of 6 on Matrix Search and Matrix Perception when using your Rating-6 commlink.
You seem to be missing the whole point of my objection.
-
Oh no, I understood it just fine. However, not only does "Edge allows you to push your machine beyond its limits" have nothing to do with cyberprograms, but I'm getting increasingly fed up with you raising a stink about what is essentially a non-issue.
-
Enh. At this point, with the amount of direction he's been given, any additional complaints and confusion are either willing or trolling. Leave 'im.
-
Actually at this point I'm reading storm front, not seen anything matrix related yet but I've only just gottwn through the ghostwalker/Harlequinn mess.
-
Ok I've now read storm front and after doing so feel comfortable having commlinks running common programs.
-
Ok I've now read storm front and after doing so feel comfortable having commlinks running common programs.
Do what you want, but please don't pretend there were no reasons - in and out of game reasons - against it. There were many provided, going WELL beyond "this is what the rules say" - and some of your objections to these explanations require that you ignore large pieces of them, such as the "Device Rating/Data Processing != Processing Power" part of the processing power explanation (which is not a "houserule", but a flat damn fact).
-
I don't recall that, that is I recall the person making :'( the argument here but i don't recall it in the book. Although i do recall a fair bit that would contradict it, where is this fact stated?
Also storm front has the head of the new matrix rollout running a program on peoples commlinks, a person apparently hacking with their commlink and a mention that all programs including deck ones had to be rewritten.
-
"You can lead a horse to water..."
-
Look I'm sorry, I'm not trolling or arguing for the sake of it. I'm standing by this because I just don't see it. There are bits and pieces here and there that could work but they all just run up against some issue in the books availbale that makes them not work without houseruling.
-
So quick question: is there any reason you think commlinks need to be able to run cyberprograms?
-
The issue, Senko, is that you are looking for proof in the books without taking into account all of the books. That you're refusing to see Shadowrun as a living, breathing, and most importantly evolving world and game system, one which has always tried to stay 'two steps ahead' of where-ever modern tech happens to be at the time of that particular edition's initial publication. Simply put, you aren't listening to the people who are telling you the in- and out-of-character reasons for 'the way things are' - and, worse, you're actively fighting both our advice and the direction of the game system itself.
In short, it appears that you're trolling, and that you're refusing to drink even when we've surrounded you with fresh, clean, tasty water.
The rules say that commlinks - which are equivalent to today's smartphones - cannot use what the books describe as 'common' programs. Period; full stop. They can for a short period of time (i.e. one test) if the person attempting it is really good, really lucky, and cobbles together a temporary suite that basically breaks down in moments under the strain, i.e. used a point of Edge. However you explain that - whether it's new protocols, a hardware issue, a 'noise' issue, or the Devs waking up and saying, 'oh shit, we screwed up!!' - is up to you, but it's still the rules.
Now, if you want to houserule that smartphones can use a full-powered realtime-video-editing suite (which is what an Edit program includes), then you go right ahead - but you should let your players know that it's a houserule, not canon.
-
I don't see what is hard to understand that you don't need the Browse program to browse the Matrix. Having it just makes it faster - and having it requires a deck. I don't know anything about specialized or professional search engines, so I assume that the Brows program is this, and not just the Google-in-Safari toolbar in an iPhone.
As has been stated, commlinks can be used for basically anything a smartphone can be used for. Clearly the hardware is the commlink and it runs software, however you don't need to buy this software separately. These...I'll call them "integrated programs" are kind of like modern-day apps, that you don't need to buy as they all come pre-loaded.
"Common" google searches don't even need to be completely diceless in this case - a commlink can do it at a baseline and no person requires any formal training to find a bakery or look up a product they find interesting or any of the infinite other things you can figure out just by googling. As commlinks have a Data Processing rating equal to their Device Rating, this allows you to do normal browsing on your commlink with a limit of your [Data Processing = Device Rating] which is pretty decent for the things a non-Matrix professional will need to do.
It is important to note that the Browse program isn't needed literally to brows the Matrix. It just makes doing so faster (mechanical impact: "cuts the time for a Matrix Search action in half"). So in this instance, a commlink can do the kind of google searching you'd be able to do on your iPhone, it just will do it slower than a deck might. Which, yes, my iPhone will typically load things slower than my laptop does,s o it's not exactly unrealistic.
So looking at common programs, you're making commlinks too good for their value if you add them in. You're actively taking some niche protection away from deckers.
-
Senko,
It's your tables, your rules. Not a lot of people here will agree with you, but some will. It's not like you're breaking the fundamental basis of the world by allowing for resurrection or something. With that said, I think you've reached your decision, and I appreciate that you did it while (eventually) listening to the advice of others. Since you've reached your decision though, it might be best if we locked this thread and moved on to other topics.
-
I don't recall that, that is I recall the person making :'( the argument here but i don't recall it in the book. Although i do recall a fair bit that would contradict it, where is this fact stated?
It's not "stated", nor does it need to be, because it's rationally obvious - any other conclusion requires that Attack, Sleaze, Sharing, RCC Noise Reduction, and Program Rating do not represent any kind of tax on processing power, which is fundamentally impossible.
-
@Zeconster
There's a number of reasons I think their not being able to run them makes no sense and I made this thread to try and figure out a justification for that or to get enough of an understanding to feel confortable house ruling it. Right now what I have is . . .
1) Programs are divided into two categories common and hacking. Decks can run both, RCC's can run common ones.
2) RCC's are described in the book as being more like commlinks than decks.
3) I can't buy the riggers are matrix specialists when they don't even need a point in computer, hardware, software, hacking, electronic warfare or cybercombat for their role yet they can use common programs.
4) Common programs do let of things that ordinary people not just deckers but ordinary everyday wage slaves could get a lot of use out of ... Editing, browsing, noise reduction (seriously look at the noise rules and tell me somone couldn't use a noise reducing program to keep their image linked AR glasses up in a mall).
5) Storm front mentions running programs on commlinks on the new matrix system using the new conmlink hardware.
6) Deckers are still vital for any hacking actions, cotrolling things in a firefight etc but this way someone else e.g. a hermetic mage could do the search they'd be doing anyway only quicker.
7) On a purely hardware level commlinks are described as having more than enough space (aside from RARE gm chosen exceptions) they'd need for any programs they may want to run and have the same data processing value as RCC's and decks.
8) Commlinks may have generic systems to do this stuff but they equally obviously don't have these specific ones or the metalink wouldn't hae 1/1/1 across the aboard and.its not like the 80 Nuyen program would replace a more expensive device. Because one it only gets a benefit in one specific area when its running that program and two the more expensive device can run the same programs and maintain its lead or be matched in that area while running a program to benefit irself elsewherr when its already better in that other area.
So I just don't see why they can't run common programs especially given the nature of those programs.
@Rhat
No its not rationally obvious otherwise there would be diferent dice for a renraku's data processing 3 to a scratch built junk's 3. Saying that its weaker because its a commlink is like saying a 2.6 quadcore processor on a smartphone is weaker than a 2.6 quadcore on a laptop. They are an abstract value for vague future tech but they're the same abstract value I.e. X not X and X - Y.
Even if what you where saying made sense because of decks transformable nature the others are either always dedicating enough processing power to equal that 3 or the deck is overclocking/ubderclocking/powering different modules/cards.
@Whiskeyjack
I'm not saying the comlinks can't do these things, I'm saying given the nature of the systems, the benefits of these programs and what the book says it makes no real sense for then not to be able to run these more programs instead of the generic ones they come prepackaged with. I'm not sure I agree with deckers losing niche protection. I will think about that though.
@Thewyrmorouborous
I dont recall seeing that just that decks could and then in another section RCCs could let me double check if my memorys playing up.
EDIT
Oj unless the rules not where I checked (possible) there is nothing saying thwy can't. The peogram section only talks about decks it doesnt even say they can run them just assumes. The rigger section says they share sone progrms with hackers and the connlink section just gives you some brief info ob what they are.
-
You don't see because you won't see. You're looking for written textual evidence for what's clearly implied just by the rules as written. But that's okay; I'm pretty sure we're all done arguing.
Go have fun, man. Your table.
-
@Rhat
No its not rationally obvious otherwise there would be diferent dice for a renraku's data processing 3 to a scratch built junk's 3. Saying that its weaker because its a commlink is like saying a 2.6 quadcore processor on a smartphone is weaker than a 2.6 quadcore on a laptop. They are an abstract value for vague future tech but they're the same abstract value I.e. X not X and X - Y.
Even if what you where saying made sense because of decks transformable nature the others are either always dedicating enough processing power to equal that 3 or the deck is overclocking/ubderclocking/powering different modules/cards.
You're missing the point - Data Processing is not the same thing as processing power and it is certainly not the specific processing power that you have; it's the resources available for or dedicated to processing data, as opposed to all the other things you might do with that processing power. The commlink has precisely 3 things to dedicate its resources (including processing power) to: Device Rating, Data Processing, and Firewall. RCCs and decks, meanwhile, have more and thus require more processing power to achieve the same ratings.
-
Here's what the text actually says about RCCs (page 266):
"It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff."
Can act like a commlink. Decks can also act like commlinks. But neither one is a commlink due to all of the extra hardware they have. In addition, RCCs can use hacking programs (Armor, a program suggested for riggers on page 269, is a hacking program). Also note that the list on page 269 does not say it is the complete list of what programs are shared.
But beyond that, the text talks about RCCs being able to use hacking programs, and even notes they use the same limit rules as cyberdecks.
But at the same time, you're trying to find a justification for commlinks to use common programs when, by RAW, they already come fully loaded with all of the software they need and, by RAW, their equipment cannot handle cyberprograms. Also note that, by RAW, programs made for RCCs do not work on cyberdecks. Nor can cyberdecks use RCC programs. The only explanation possible is hardware issues.
So, no, the text on RCCs doesn't reinforce your point. It goes to show that there is massive incompatibility between the three devices, despite how many features they share, and goes on further to show that commlinks really are just that limited.
-
Also, RCCs can run both common and hacking cyberprograms, as well as autosofts, according to the rules...
-
2) RCC's are described in the book as being more like commlinks than decks.
I think you're looking at the RCCs being described as "more like commlinks" wayyyy wrong. A commlink is a smartphone. A deck is a very versatile and powerful computer. An RCC is like a commlink in that it doesn't have the versatility of function of a deck: decks can do pretty much anything with the Matrix and alter their internal attributes to optimize for the task they need; commlinks and RCCs cannot. But also consider an RCC is a platform designed to control and coordinate multiple separate pieces of unmanned hardware.
So, yes, an RCC is more specialized than a deck. And I don't think that our current technology that allows for remote piloting of Reaper drones is designed specifically to also provide a comprehensive browsing and hacking platform. But I also wouldn't say that the sensor consoles currently used to pilot UAVs is that much like a smartphone in terms of its power. An RCC is basically like our drone control suites, except capable of controlling several simultaneously rather than one. By contrast a commlink is a nice smartphone. I don't think that's a proper comparison.
RCCs can run common programs because, in effect, they are a bigger and more complex computer than a smartlink. But they are not near as complicated or versatile as a deck. Using an RCC like that is probably largely a waste of time (nice to have on occasion but nothing special) since the common programs are not that big a deal except for Edit.
Your points on riggers are off the point. Riggers aren't Matrix experts. Who claimed that?
Riggers aren’t deckers, but they aren’t completely inept in the world of electronic warfare.
Riggers are remote pilots who need to know enough to protect their drones from being hacked. They don't need to be expert hackers themselves and most lack the hardware to do that. The book says that riggers need to be good enough at things like EW to protect their flocks of drones and doesn't even mention trying to counter-hack a decker; on top of it if a drone gets hacked and RC'd a rigger just jumps into it and re-establishes control. Who claimed deckers weren't necessary?
OK I just went back and read the relevant stuff on RCCs. I am comfortable saying that you are being and have been rather intellectually dishonest in this thread regarding how RCCs are compared to commlinks and decks in the book. They're compared to both decks and commlinks, however you pretty much latched on to the commlink comparisons only.
A rigger command console, or RCC, is like a deck for controlling drones (or other vehicles and devices). It’s about the size of a briefcase. It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff.
Along with all the standard features of a commlink, rigger command consoles have Noise Reduction and Sharing ratings that you set when you boot the console.
Rigger command consoles have the familiar Data Processing and Firewall ratings from both commlinks and cyberdecks, but they lean toward commlinks in their functionality since they are not designed for versatility and cannot be readjusted on the fly.
I am actually surprised you haven't said decks are like commlinks what with this:
A cyberdeck—usually just called a deck—is like a commlink with some extra features.
-
@Zeconster
There's a number of reasons I think their not being able to run them makes no sense and I made this thread to try and figure out a justification for that or to get enough of an understanding to feel confortable house ruling it.
I asked for a need, as in "what purpose would allowing commlinks to use cyberprograms serve?"
4) Common programs do let of things that ordinary people not just deckers but ordinary everyday wage slaves could get a lot of use out of ... Editing, browsing
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Commlinks already allow you to edit and browse, as people have spent the entire topic telling you.
Let me repeat that: even without cyberprograms, you can edit and browse on commlinks.
EDIT
Oj unless the rules not where I checked (possible) there is nothing saying thwy can't. The peogram section only talks about decks it doesnt even say they can run them just assumes. The rigger section says they share sone progrms with hackers and the connlink section just gives you some brief info ob what they are.
Try page 221.
A commlink is combination computer, smartphone, media player, passport, wallet, credit card, Matrix browser, chip reader, GPS navigator, digital camera, and portable gaming device. And possibly a few other things, if you’ve got a really nice one. It’s got all of the necessary software already loaded, but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools.
-
I'm trying to avoid reading this whole thread to find a reference to where exactly SR5 core says commlinks can't.
Clearly, the consensus is the rules say no. From my skim, it's somewhat implied this is a no (Not listing it as a stat, common programs specifying deck, etc).
Is there some line I've missed?
-
Page 221, quoted in the post above yours.
Page 222 states exactly what a commlink can be used for.
-
Page 221, quoted in the post above yours.
Page 222 states exactly what a commlink can be used for.
Thank you.
-
*Didnt read the whole thread
I too find it odd that links cant run programs, I can see that from a game balance point of view, they shouldnt be able to it, because of their relative high rating/firewall for low cost.
But if the non-decking players feel a bit cheated and left out on the matrix part, it would be relatively easy to houserule something that would give the players a few more choices regarding links and matrix, for instance:
commlink device rating common use programs
Meta link 1 0, just be glad that it can show you the time
emperor 1 1
sensei 2 1
elite 3 2
ikon 4 2
avalon 5 3
caliban 6 3
(every link after the meta link, has had their device rating reduced by 1 (and ½ matrix condition monitor)as a tradeoff, being able to run programs.
While the majority of commlinks have their response and firewall reduced, most of them can run encryption and toolbox at the same time, making up for it.
-
Trust me, read the last couple pages of comments. Then read Storm Front. Those all spell out why.
If you want the quick summary, it's this:
The megacorps didn't want it them to be able to anymore and changed the Matrix so they can't.
-
Haha nah, I´ll be fine without reading that :)
This subject hasnt been up in my group yet, and I have no real preference one way or the other. While I think its odd from a gamemechanic point of view they cant run those programs, its a lot easier for non-hackers to not worry about those things.
My earlier post was merely a suggestion for those guys not satisfied with the current rules and the megacorporations choice of matrix security design. Take it or leave it :) .
Besides, Im certain the Corps will decide otherwise in a future sourcebook, and give link more options
-
Heck - it is even simpler. Commlinks are already running the highest versions of the relevant functions they can. Adding a second installation of word to your computer doesn't make its word processing any better - it just chews up a bit of HDD space and makes Microsoft happy that they sold another licence.
-
I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown but I have to repeat storm front DOESN'T explain a thing. What it says is that the new protocols invalidated ALL the programs on everything commlinks, decks etc and that they needed to be either refined or dug up out of storage it in fact had a brief reference to the new hardware commlinks running programs.
However Aranador I just wanted to say I could have worked with that explanation if it weren't for things like the metalink that have stats lower than the programs would account for.
-
I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown
Is that why you haven't bothered answering my question as to why you think commlinks need to be able to use cyberprograms?
-
"I'm a XBox One. I'm a top of the line gaming system; I kick ass!! But dammit, the internet protocols have just been all switched over to Apple protocols. I sure can run the programs designed for me, on my own private system, really well, but when I try to do things on the interw3bz I can barely do anything at all."
-
Haha nah, I´ll be fine without reading that :)
This subject hasnt been up in my group yet, and I have no real preference one way or the other. While I think its odd from a gamemechanic point of view they cant run those programs, its a lot easier for non-hackers to not worry about those things.
My earlier post was merely a suggestion for those guys not satisfied with the current rules and the megacorporations choice of matrix security design. Take it or leave it :) .
Besides, Im certain the Corps will decide otherwise in a future sourcebook, and give link more options
From written text, they already have all of the programs they need and are maxed out on their hardware capacity for running programs. And in this edition, programs are platform dependent; a program made for a RCC won't work on a cyberdeck and vice versa, even if it's pretty much exactly the same program. Commlinks are simply not set up with the hardware the current programs require.
-
It seems plain to me that Comlinks do have software that allow them to do common, non-hecking functions. However, lacking the power and resources of a cyberdeck, and the specialized hardware that simply isn't legal to own or find in such limited devices, the com-link versions of these common programs give you know bonus dice. The reason to have the comlink is at least you can do that, and, after all, the comlink is a communications device first, not a dedicated programmers tool.
You just want to do common programming actions, legal and not of a complex nature, your comlink lets you do that. You want to use decking equivalent cyber programs, or do those common legal tasks even better using superior, start of the art programs? Buy a cyberdeck.
Using cyberprograms is the realm of decking. Leave it there. Its as intrusive on a characters role as expecting the knowledge skill of magic to allow a mundane to participate in ritual magic.
there, its spelled out in the rules, supported throughout the text, and has form roots in protecting character roles. I haven't seen anything presented in the entire thread that supports a com-link acting in such a role without a skewed, or out of context quotation.
Now, at your table, its your game. If as a GM you decide this is best for your game, go for it. No one here is saying you can't do that. But if your assentation is that the rules as written do, or the source material supports your claim, well, you are wrong.
Some general advice applicable to any game system. When you find yourself debating a rule, or making some claim about how it should really apply, and after thorough discussion, you have convinced no one, had none of your cited evidence hold up in contextual examination, save yourself time, say 'well, I'm going to house rule it different, because I like it better this way" and move on. You don't win, or impress anyone simply by out-enduring everyone else and refusing to listen.
(I'm thinking of another thread that got even more ridiculous, where citations to dictionary definitions had to be used because someone couldn't grasp that sleep is a form of unconsciousness.) Its always best to stop before it gets to that point.
-
Commlinks can't run cyberprograms because the megacorps would rather sell you cyberdecks and RCCs for that. Look at the profit margins! ;)
Commlinks don't have to run cyberprograms, because many of the day-to-day things you want a cyberprogram for, a commlink can already attempt to do (a pistol can't shoot sniper rifle bullets, but it can still perform the basic task of 'shoot someone,' right?).
If you just can't sleep at night without houseruling it so that commlinks can run cyberprograms, then that's fine, knock yourself out. But don't insist it's the only logical way to read the books, don't insist the books don't clearly spell out otherwise, and don't act like everyone else is playing it wrong and they're the ones house-ruling it.
-
Let me look at this from another angle, like mentioned by others; WHY do you feel the need to allow links to run common cyberprograms?
Examining the common cyberprograms, they really aren't all that beneficial except in two cases; firewall and noise reduction.
Browse:
Useful enough, but your Matrix specialist is going to be better at this 99 times out of a hundred, seeing as the majority of non-Matrix based characters I've seen don't take several ranks of Computer.
Configurator:
Wouldn't do any good as links can reconfigure their stats anyway.
Edit:
Wouldn't do any good as you never need to roll Edit your own files, and hackers can't share marks, so you can't Edit someone else's files anyway.
Encryption:
For 80 nuyen, this becomes an immediate must-take. Why not just give all the devices +1 Firewall while you're at it?
Signal Scrub:
For 80 nuyen, this becomes an absolute immediate must-take. Why not just give all links +2 Noise Reduction while you're at it?
Toolbox:
Marginally useful, as the amount of Matrix Actions you'll need to actually roll for when using a link are few and far between. Besides, Signal Scrub and Encryption eke out the top spots for at least the bottom 3 devices anyway.
Virtual Machine:
Useful for low-end devices, despite the increased Matrix damage.
In essence, what you are doing by allowing commlinks to run common cyberprograms is slightly skew the game balance in favour of non-Matrix characters, as they'll have a harder time getting through your firewall, and the best link in the game becomes comparable with a 500,000 nuyen cyberdeck in terms of firewall and has an effective noise cancellation potential of 9, all for the meager cost of 160 nuyen. Does that really sound fair to you?
I know what my answer is; there are plenty of in-game justifications if you ease off the real-world analogies for a little (it makes no sense to me that wireless transmissions are somehow faster than wired ones, but I've accepted this as a game balance reason and moved on), you'll see that you'll be skewing game balance for no real (to me) apparent reason.
So, to echo others in this thread:
From a game mechanics point of view, not a story point of view, why exactly do you feel that commlinks should be allowed to run cyberprograms?
-
it in fact had a brief reference to the new hardware commlinks running programs.
Oh. My. God.
Commlinks are clearly running "programs." You clearly can't search the Matrix or send messages without using some "program." These "programs" are part of a built-in suite native to the commlink, since they cannot be separately purchased (nothing in any table, no prices, etc). The commlink is effectively using built-in "programs" (i.e. Safari) to do this.
These "programs," in other words, the Device Rating, are separate and distinct from the Programs (capital-P, or perhaps called "cyberprograms") like Browse, Edit, Configurator, etc that are deck-only, as martinchaen explained above.
You are making a classic mistake of reading fluff into crunch, and that doesn't work well.
I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown
Is that why you haven't bothered answering my question as to why you think commlinks need to be able to use cyberprograms?
It's pretty clear Senko is not going to answer this.
-
@Zeconster
Yes that is the reason I hadn't answered your question. However as you seem curious enough to ask it a few timed I think they should be able to run common cyber programs purely from a fluff/thus makes sense in the context of the world and how things work. That's the reason purely fluff related to the prevelance of computers and how their used not crunch related except as in countering arguments as to why they cant.
@Martinchaen
Wait I thought we still needed to roll to edit a file even if we had permission to do so?
@Whiskeyjack
I'm not using that as an argument for running cyberprograms but rather as a counter for the commlinks have no extra space argument as It proves they haven't reached their limit in running programs or they couldn't do this at all due to having no spare processing power.
@Critias
I've never claimed this is how things work and I'm pretty sure I stated any rulings I made would be houserules.
@Incredbil
I'm not actually trying to outlast anyone I first tried dropping this back on p.g. 4/5 then again on page 9. I'm just not very good at it when other people keep posting comments like storm front explains x when it doesn't.
-
Senko, did you ever consider why it seems that Storm Front's explanation of the new Matrix protocols is not sufficient for you? Most of us here (not all of us, mind you) feel that the explanation given is sufficient. You do not. I think you should ponder on that a little bit.
-
Commlinks are clearly running "programs." You clearly can't search the Matrix or send messages without using some "program." These "programs" are part of a built-in suite native to the commlink, since they cannot be separately purchased (nothing in any table, no prices, etc). The commlink is effectively using built-in "programs" (i.e. Safari) to do this.
These "programs," in other words, the Device Rating, are separate and distinct from the Programs (capital-P, or perhaps called "cyberprograms") like Browse, Edit, Configurator, etc that are deck-only, as martinchaen explained above.
Yeah, that's part of his disconnect, I think. It's like...okay, a commlink, like many a boxed-up computer today, comes with MSPaint on it. For the day to day needs of a generic dude using a low-tier commlink, that's enough. He's got his MSPaint, he's got his Word, he can play a little Solitaire, he thinks Internet Explorer is awesome, and all's right with the world. He can do the stuff he expects a commlink to do, when he needs the commlink to do those things.
But that's not the same as running the professional-grade, programs-put-on-to-spec, hyper-specialized-software, stuff. And why can't a commlink run that stuff? Because it just can't. Trying to read too much more into it, torturing yet more real-life hardware/software terms, to try and make sense of it? It's an exercise in futility, because real-life hacking is boring as shit, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with Shadowrun-hacking, so you've really got to learn to just go with the flow.
And Stormfront does explain it, as well as it needs to be explained. Because a part of long-term RPGs is edition changes, and edition changes bring with them metaphysical changes in how the universe operates. Trolls changed their running speed. Some skills changed. Spells changed (a lot). And you know what? Hacking, and the tools used to hack, also changed (hell, VCRigs weren't even a thing in 4th edition). So there's a book or two released to foreshadow the changes, to try and smooth them over, and then an absolutely necessary part of gaming is to shrug your shoulders and roll with it.
I know that "because they just don't" is a shitty answer, but you know what? It's the actual answer. IRL, there was a decision made to shift hacking away from commlinks (and casual users) and back to being a dedicated role (with cyberdecks again, being used by deckers). Everything else is secondary.
-
However Aranador I just wanted to say I could have worked with that explanation if it weren't for things like the metalink that have stats lower than the programs would account for.
The metalink is junk. Are you really surprised that it can barely run its own operating system, let alone any decent programs ?
-
due to having no spare processing power.
Someone already addressed the processing power argument. Seems like you just want to ignore their response rather than responding to it.
Wait I thought we still needed to roll to edit a file even if we had permission to do so?
Here's an important consideration: when you're talking about using actions, you're talking about structured time (typically combat time, or tracking time closely often using initiative). Which makes sense since each Edit Action "is enough to alter one detail of a file—a short paragraph of text, a single detail of an image, or two or three seconds of video or audio." So it's quickly editing in that damning evidence into an online news story while its servers are still protected, or adding a weird image to an instant of camera footage sufficient to get the guard watching the monitors curious enough to investigate. It is not sitting down to write a term paper, or returning to a term paper after you get it red-lined in order to make the suggested changes. The Edit action is about quick, precise, technical editing, not long-term "creative" editing like a digital editor piecing a movie together from takes - that's more likely an extended Artisan test.
Again you can do Edit Actions without using the Edit cyberprogram; all the latter does is raise the Limit. Which, for a good commlink, will already be high (as it's the Device Rating = Data Processing attribute). It's good for a deck devoting its configuration somewhere else and can't afford to switch it around, or already using Data Processing at max but want a higher Limit for whatever reason (i.e. critical ongoing tests to keep editing your team out of the camera feed, which requires one Complex per turn to do).
-
From a game mechanics point of view, not a story point of view, why exactly do you feel that commlinks should be allowed to run cyberprograms?
Since you seemed to miss this part of my entire post, which is why I typed it up in the first place, I'm reiterating because I really want to know.
-
@Namikaze
Yes which is why I've made several attempts to step out of this topic and let it die, I have Aspergers Syndrome which is part of my problem here I think at least it normally seems to be the cause of when I have trouble with something that is almost instinctive (and sometimes vice-versa).
@Critias
I kind of figured out that was all I was going to get back on page 9 when I said I'd just houserule it and hoped this thread would die.
@Arandor
Honestly? No, the idea the metalink was just junk or the cheap it works . . . most of the time of commlinks. I think I can work with this.
@Whiskeyjack
I may have missed that response but I thought pointing out that regardless of how you measuring processing power the new commllinks had enough spare to run more programs in the cannon history kind of refuted that.
As for long term vs in game again something I hadn't considered hmmmm.
@Martinchaen
Sorry that was my reply I don't have any mechanics reason for wanting them to run programs none at all. However from a non-mechanics one if I can't justify WHY in terms of the world in question to myself beyond a "this is so because we say so even if it makes no sense ruling" it'll drive me up the wall everytime it comes up which for the ubiquitous commlink means always. Every SINGLE time I use one the knowledge that even though it should by everything else in the setting be able to run a scrubber program to reduce the background noise from the adds its can't because "They don't." is going to be gnawing at the back of my mind. Its the same with anything I don't mind a bad film as long as its internally consistent, I hate a film/book/game that has something happen which is not justifiable in terms of its own rules. For example the new final destination films that threw rules defined in the first movies out the window in favour of gory deaths.
-
If your only objection is an in-setting issue, I'm forced to remind you of the litany of in-game reasons that have been offered.
-
I don't have any mechanics reason for wanting them to run programs none at all.
That's what I thought.
-
I wasn't hiding it from my first post.
-
Actually, you have been hiding it - you've been going on and on about how cyberprograms would be so useful for commlinks and how there's no "valid" fluff justification for commlinks not being able to run cyberprograms, yet you tried to avoid answering my and martin's question about whether you think commlinks actually need to run cyberprograms, which they don't, because 5k gets you a commlink with a Limit of 6.
-
guys, ffs. 11 pages over nothing. they can't run cyberprograms. lets just move on and lock this topic.
-
. Its the same with anything I don't mind a bad film as long as its internally consistent, I hate a film/book/game that has something happen which is not justifiable in terms of its own rules.
Ok, so you have no mechanics reason. you have a personal preference--based on your misreading, or ignoring, the countless citations of rules and in-game text providing valid, consistent, in in-universe reason why comlinks can't run cyberdeck programs provided over the entire thread. They are there, you just won't address them because of your personal preference. Fine. your game. House rule it as you want. But if you want to keep publicly claiming the rules and/or background support your claim, you are going to keep getting slapped down. 11 pages of being told 'No" by every other poster, with absolutely no support is pretty telling. You say want the thread to die. Funny, for someone who wants it to die, you keep coming back and repeating the same invalid argument over and over.
-
@Martinchaen
Sorry that was my reply I don't have any mechanics reason for wanting them to run programs none at all. However from a non-mechanics one if I can't justify WHY in terms of the world in question to myself beyond a "this is so because we say so even if it makes no sense ruling" it'll drive me up the wall everytime it comes up which for the ubiquitous commlink means always. Every SINGLE time I use one the knowledge that even though it should by everything else in the setting be able to run a scrubber program to reduce the background noise from the adds its can't because "They don't." is going to be gnawing at the back of my mind. Its the same with anything I don't mind a bad film as long as its internally consistent, I hate a film/book/game that has something happen which is not justifiable in terms of its own rules. For example the new final destination films that threw rules defined in the first movies out the window in favour of gory deaths.
Right, thanks for clarifying this.
So, if there's no mechanical reason for wanting links to run cyberprograms, why not just say that in your game links CAN run most cyberprograms, but thy the programs listed in the rules are strictly for RCCs and decks because they ALL require specialized hardware not present on a commlink?
You mentioned Signal Scrubber specifically, so why is it so hard for you to accept that a commlink can't run this program for whatever reason? If it requires a hardware module that commlinks just don't have, isn't that good enough? The link can still run every other piece of software under the Sun (heh), but the cyberprograms listed in the book requires something "more".
If you still insist that links should be able to run cyberprograma, why stop at common? That's what I don't get... Honestly, you can do whatever you like, but like others have said, I dint think you have the right to claim that your view is justified. I think the vehement opposition by several posters here should be a strong indication to you.
With that said, I'm out. Enjoy!
-
I think my meat elbow should be able to run cyberprograms.
I have no mechanics reason why. I just think it should.
-k
-
I think my meat elbow should be able to run cyberprograms.
I have no mechanics reason why. I just think it should.
-k
Don't see why not, some Street Sammies seem to run many of them already:
Browse: Tend to see them doing this in the Men's Magazine section down at the shop.
Edit: White Out
Encryption: Igpay Atinlay
Signal Scrub: That would explain why he was scouring the radio with that steel wool last week
Toolbox: Kept in the trunk
Virtual Machine: Air-guitar
-
You forgot one!
Configurator: Street doc contact.
-
@Namikaze
Yes which is why I've made several attempts to step out of this topic and let it die, I have Aspergers Syndrome which is part of my problem here I think at least it normally seems to be the cause of when I have trouble with something that is almost instinctive (and sometimes vice-versa).
I think you should just ignore this topic then, Senko. Unfortunately, nothing is going to satisfy that little itch. I know what you mean about not being able to let something go, and I know from personal experience that it can be extremely difficult with Asperger's to stop trying to find that little thing to make it all perfect. One of the best artists I ever knew had Asperger's, and even though he couldn't create something from nothing, he could model a real-world location or person with insane precision. Part of the reason was that he kept tweaking things just a tiny bit here and there. Eventually, in order to release our products on time, we had to get him used to the idea of letting it go. He never did take it well, but eventually he would relinquish the product (so long as he could keep a copy to keep tweaking it on his own time).
-
Admittedly, pairing Asperger's with ADD makes it a bit easier to let go, but the combination of the two can utterly destroy your ability to concentrate on important items when something interesting comes along. Of course, you're only letting go because you get distracted by something else, and then when you come back to it... But it's still something you can take advantage of.
It's part of why I tend to post a lot on here. I need something to distract me from the other things I'm doing so I won't go nuts on getting them just right. But I also tend to distract myself from here with other things as well, since I can literally argue forever on a topic.
Senko, it can be difficult, but Namikaze is right. Sometimes, you just have to let it go or accept it will be imperfect or you won't ever get a satisfactory answer.
-
I think my meat elbow should be able to run cyberprograms.
I have no mechanics reason why. I just think it should.
-k
That's your avatar speaking.
-
It's part of why I tend to post a lot on here. I need something to distract me from the other things I'm doing so I won't go nuts on getting them just right. But I also tend to distract myself from here with other things as well, since I can literally argue forever on a topic.
OMG I know that feeling. Wait, was that an ADD-style response? :P
-
Very much so :P