Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Neongelion on <05-18-14/2142:46>
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I'm about to run a game, and today's session was everyone making characters. Now I'm new to 5th edition Shadowrun, and I've only been introduced to the setting and 4th edition system about a year ago, so my experience is not that much. The ork street samurai has an armor rating of 19, while he has an 18 to hit with blades inside his cyberarms. And the mystic adept/cat shaman not only has access to the invisibility spell, but he can also get Concealment from air spirits. The other combat specialist seems normal enough, I haven't looked at his sheet yet. The technomancer and other mage seem a bit more balanced.
But I'm most worried about this ork with 19 armor. How on earth are you supposed to hit someone with that much armor, combined with their body, to soak damage? I'm not familiar with 5th edition so I'm not sure if a 19 armor is "normal" or not, but it seems like anything short of every single bad guy having armor-piercing rounds with ridiculous skills in shooting will present a tangible threat to this character.
On one hand I want to challenge my players, but on the other I don't want to make things extremely difficult or ignore their strengths and play on their weaknesses (at least, not all the time). This ork player says he likes being like Wolverine and just gutting people with the knives in his cyberarms, so I'm going to give him plenty of opportunities to slice up baddies with ease. The shaman player clearly wants to be a sneaky dude, so I want to make him feel like being a very good sneaky dude. On the other hand I don't want everything to be a cakewalk.
The shaman, meanwhile, appears to seem like he is able to be invisible, all the time. I get that other magicians can see him in the astral, but when they kill the security mage, then it seems like they can basically waltz into a corporate facility and never be spotted.
So beyond discussing this with my players (which I plan on doing), what else should I do? Does this seem balanced, relatively speaking?
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... I'll just put it to you this way: If a technomancer is the source of your notion of "balanced" from a combat (or, really, any) perspective, your notion desperately needs to be adjusted upwards.
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Well again, I'm not very familiar with Shadowrun, and less so than 5th, so I think that's my purpose here.
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You'd be surprised how brutal this game can be. There can be a lot of "Hahaha this is easy, I'm stomping everyone!" moments. It gives you a sense of security and then BAM! - one lucky shot from a pistol and your hard to kill PC is nearly bleeding to death. It is good that players can build strong characters because the challenges they will face can be incredibly difficult. Remember too that combat is just one form of role playing, much like how the decker plays scenes in the matrix... it is all part of the story and the experience. A combat monster generally should kick ass in combat.
However, there are plenty of things you can do to keep him in check. APDS rounds or Fire based attacks are good options to consider. There are several attack spells that don't have to worry about Armor. Tasers are pretty nice too. That should be enough to get you started.
One last word of advice: Pace yourself. Don't worry too much about putting tremendous challenges forth before you have a good feel for the rules because it is very easy to overestimate what the PC's can handle. Also, there is a lot of luck involved and crazy things are simply going to happen :)
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Well again, I'm not very familiar with Shadowrun, and less so than 5th, so I think that's my purpose here.
Well, to put it simply, 19 armour might seem high, but armour is just soak dice; having high armour doesn't make you invincible by any means, and that's not really that high of an armour number to begin with. Invisibility doesn't mean you can't be detected (especially if it isn't the the Improved form), and Concealment is only a perception penalty. Also, melee has pretty notable disadvantages.
You've got to keep in mind the swing on Shadowrun - anyone can be killed by anyone if the dice happen to go that way on one shot.
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My group has a Troll w/ 30-ish soak dice. So he's very good at being a "tank" but let me tell you, even that won't save you forever when more & more guns are pointed at you.
The 19 Armor + Body is a good amount, but its still only 8-9 average hits, and if your doing 9-10ish damage at a time, well it will start to add up. Especially when the low roll comes out & you get 3 hits on 29 dice.
I think the group will be easy to challenge. Just start small, & then upgrade for the next encounter or adventure. Don't TPK them just because you don't have "sizing opposition" down yet.
If they get through a couple fights too easy, add 25% more guys to the next one & then see how they do. Often it won't take much to make a big difference.
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hmmmm,
19 Pts armor is High but not the Tip of the Iceberg. I've got Chars with an Armor of 22 or 24 (with Helmet) thanks to Cyberarms.
But you can do more than just try to shoot at him. ever considered an Ambush with Fire,Electricity or a Pit/Trap ?
ever tried to use Gas or Drugs ?
And an Invisible Mage can still be noticed by Ultrasonic,Radar or the Nose of a Guarddog.
You should use all possibilities of a Hightech World and one that is used to Magic for the last 50+ Years
This ork player says he likes being like Wolverine and just gutting people with the knives in his cyberarms, so I'm going to give him plenty of opportunities to slice up baddies with ease.
thats cool , I like it. (The Player is limiting himself to close combat) Its a good Idea to give him something to Chop of
but how will he fare against a Roto-Drone with an S&S SMG ? ;) :o
Your shaman may be Invisible, but what will He do against Guarddogs, Goose or a Ward ? ;) :o
Yeah SR can be tricky but its also Your Job as a GM to do some of the "tricks" ;) :D
HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman
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I'd hit the 19 armor guy with poisons, gases, gel rounds, etc. All of these are intended to take him out of combat. Suppressive Fire is really useful as well. Have him run into a room, and then have a drone open up with suppressive fire and watch him piss himself when he has no cover and has to lay prone and pray.
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I want you to grab your copy of the core book.
Go to page 405. Look at Hellhounds.
Laugh. Laugh and laugh.
Dual-natured, immune to fire, and they can breath fire for 10P w/ -5AP while rolling 8 dice for it. They can do this, on average, once a second (~3 initiative passes/combat turn).
A little astral perception for your invisible mage, A little magic fire to remind your high armor sammy there are many things to worry about. Hellhounds are widely used as guard dogs for important things because they're trainable, smart (logic 2, intuition 4), and coordinate well.
As a plus, while threatening, they're also not impossible to kill. With six body and 2 armor they're actually pretty easy targets if you're willing to kill a dog. Granted, a dog who can breathe fire. But still.
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Aaaaand
Awakened Critters are F******* expensive to train and maintain
lots of Players will have quite some fun when they know that killing the Beasts costs some 50.000 or 100.000 ¥ to a Megacorps.
So the GM has a challenge and a kind of double reward for the Players, when the Chars kill some of the Critters
Its just the same with Monowire.
I like GMs that use Monowire because it means more booty for my Chars ;) :D
with a double Dance
Medicineman
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I should probably point out that even with 4 hits, if you encounter enough halfway-competent guards, chances are good someone will pierce through that Invisibility spell, since Concealment doesn't apply to the roll made to resist the spell. So you'll have to cast at Force 5 or 6 or use Edge or use Reagents, and unless you've got good sneaking skills, you'll also have to cast a spell to make no noise, since cheap earbuds can add +3 to Perception (hearing), partly canceling out Concealment; and at that point, there's still guard dogs... Invisibility + Concealment is far from an unbeatable combo.
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Also, there's one thing that's really fun with people who depend on Invisibility: Rain. The game usually takes place in Seattle, after all. :P
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I do think that I may have come up with the nastiest weapon in the game. A dart or other injected ammunition type, filled with CFD-infected nanites in a suspension that keeps them active - blood for instance. Shoot someone with this as a GM, and you've given the character (or what makes up a character's soul, personality, whatever) a timer until destruction.
I'm not sure that this would work on a guy with 19 points of armor, but what if he killed an infected someone up close and personal and got the blood anywhere near his skin. *shudder* I've been reading too much Stolen Souls fluff, and not enough of the crunch I'm sure. But still, it's terrifying to think of something like that being available to GMs now.
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Cool, every single one of you guys has definitely put things in perspective, thank you!
One other thing I should ask, is it normal to have your Edge attribute maxed out at character creation, especially when it comes to humans?
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Cool, every single one of you guys has definitely put things in perspective, thank you!
One other thing I should ask, is it normal to have your Edge attribute maxed out at character creation, especially when it comes to humans?
Sure, if you use your "B" on Metatype.
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Cool, every single one of you guys has definitely put things in perspective, thank you!
One other thing I should ask, is it normal to have your Edge attribute maxed out at character creation, especially when it comes to humans?
Well, I'll put it this way - no mundane human starts with less than 5 Edge; Human C makes it very easy to start with 7 Edge.
Edge is also very, very important, extremely useful, an it's value follows an exponential curve - each additional point gives you 1 more die and one more usage. High Edge is pretty normal for this edition, and in any game with something that's more or less a luck stat will have many players that max it more or less all the time.
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Any magical source of hiding might be busted by a decent ward, and will definitely be busted by a Watcher Spirit paying attention to the Astral.
I can't say I'm impressed by the 19 armor. My own character has 18 (AJ+Helmet+OS4) and 8 soak dice, and I still took damage in Humanitarian Aid. AoE spells would hurt like hell as well, except that with R&G I can now run away from them. (Solution: First Suppressive Fire, then AoE spell.) An Ares Alpha does 11P/-2, so if you grab APDS, and make it fire 6 rounds each IP, I'd be rolling 8 defense dice and a single net-hit already would be 12P/-6 vs 8+18, so 12P vs 8+12 = 5P damage on average. Even Total Defense would put me at only 13 defense dice.
So yeah, Full Body Armor opponents with Ares Alphas with APDS and Gas-Vents 3. Combine Suppressive Fire (hello dice penalties!), AoE spells and 6-round bursts (recoil resets as soon as 1 simple action is not firing, so just cover+fire, aim+fire, aim+fire, etc), and Watcher Spirits, and you're already making headway giving them a very serious combat threat, and that's without deliberately avoiding their strong points.
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and 6-round bursts (recoil resets as soon as 1 simple action is not firing, so just cover+fire, aim+fire, aim+fire, etc),
Sorry to interrupt, but IIRC a 6-round-Burst is a complex action
you could do that with a 3-Round-Burst though
One other thing I should ask, is it normal to have your Edge attribute maxed out at character creation, especially when it comes to humans?
Mr Lucky (Human with Edge 7 or 8) is a veritable Char concept.
My chars usually have minimum Edge because I need the points someplace else. But I try to raise Edge quite fast
to have a Minimum of 3 or 4
with a Minimum Dance
Medicineman
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and 6-round bursts (recoil resets as soon as 1 simple action is not firing, so just cover+fire, aim+fire, aim+fire, etc),
Sorry to interrupt, but IIRC a 6-round-Burst is a complex action
FA-bursts are 6-round bursts.
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and 6-round bursts (recoil resets as soon as 1 simple action is not firing, so just cover+fire, aim+fire, aim+fire, etc),
Sorry to interrupt, but IIRC a 6-round-Burst is a complex action
FA-bursts are 6-round bursts.
which means ?
with a ? Dance
Medicineman
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and 6-round bursts (recoil resets as soon as 1 simple action is not firing, so just cover+fire, aim+fire, aim+fire, etc),
Sorry to interrupt, but IIRC a 6-round-Burst is a complex action
FA-bursts are 6-round bursts.
which means ?
with a ? Dance
Medicineman
which means it is a simple action
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OK, Im surprised now :o
I've got the SR5 German BBB Page 164 Under complex Action I find firing Long Salvo or Semi-Auto Salvo
and also firing Weapon in FullAuto Modus
wih a surprised Dance
Medicineman
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It's probably also going to under Simple Actions, since the CA is 10 rounds, and the SA is 6. It's basically 1/-, 1/3, 3/6 and 6/10.
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hmmmm,
19 Pts armor is High but not the Tip of the Iceberg. I've got Chars with an Armor of 22 or 24 (with Helmet) thanks to Cyberarms.
But you can do more than just try to shoot at him. ever considered an Ambush with Fire,Electricity or a Pit/Trap ?
ever tried to use Gas or Drugs ?
And an Invisible Mage can still be noticed by Ultrasonic,Radar or the Nose of a Guarddog.
You should use all possibilities of a Hightech World and one that is used to Magic for the last 50+ Years
This ork player says he likes being like Wolverine and just gutting people with the knives in his cyberarms, so I'm going to give him plenty of opportunities to slice up baddies with ease.
thats cool , I like it. (The Player is limiting himself to close combat) Its a good Idea to give him something to Chop of
but how will he fare against a Roto-Drone with an S&S SMG ? ;) :o
Your shaman may be Invisible, but what will He do against Guarddogs, Goose or a Ward ? ;) :o
Yeah SR can be tricky but its also Your Job as a GM to do some of the "tricks" ;) :D
HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman
Does ultrasound/radar automatically detect mages under improved invisibility, or do they roll for it? Also, I assume Concealment wouldn't help against sensors since it only specifies metahumans.
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Improved Invisibility protects You from Sight .
Ultrasound is no sight so you don't need to roll for It you perceive the invisible Mage immediately
Concealment protects from ANY kind of Perception (weather Meat or Machine matters not) Sight,Hearing,Smell, everything
I prefer Concealment over Invisibility !
with a concealed Dance
Medicineman
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Would ultrasound and radar even work against Improved Invisibility, given how it mimics the surroundings from all angles and works against sensors? Perhaps Object Resistance of Sensors, so 9 dice to resist?
Concealment would work against sensors as well, I think. After all, otherwise it wouldn't work against critters. Besides, it doesn't even mention it's only against metahumans.
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Logically, both would; the players are not intangible, so sound and radio waves would still bounce off them.
Rules-wise, it's magic.
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Improved Invisibility protects You from Sight .
Ultrasound is no sight so you don't need to roll for It you perceive the invisible Mage immediately
Concealment protects from ANY kind of Perception (weather Meat or Machine matters not) Sight,Hearing,Smell, everything
I prefer Concealment over Invisibility !
with a concealed Dance
Medicineman
Wait, so if they had both concealment and invisibility up, the ultrasound sensor would still detect them automatically?
And you're right Michael, it doesn't say only metahumans, it merely just mentions them.
But so basically, Improved Invisibility+Concealment doesn't really add together since Concealment subtracts from Perception checks, and you resist Invisibility and its Improved version with Logic+Willpower and Intuition+Logic, respectively.
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Correct. They semi-stack, since even if you pierce through the illusion, your perception check is penalized as well. Of course you'd have to have a Spirit cast an illusion on the astral as well to make astral sight not immediately look through it, and even then a single hit on an Assensing test will pierce through the illusion.
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Logically, both would; the players are not intangible, so sound and radio waves would still bounce off them.
Rules-wise, it's magic.
Actually, rules-wise Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are Single-Sense spells (so they only hide you from sight), and state you can still be detected through hearing and smell. As long as ultrasound is (ruled to be) hearing-based, it'll bypass Improved Invisibility.
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That would certainly give ultrasound a good advantage. Since ultrasound is based on echos, if someone put up a Silence spell around themselves, would the ultrasound reveal it as a big opaque ball? Hmmm... this might be a whole separate topic at some point, but I think it's certainly interesting to think about it.
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Ultrasound has long been a common way of getting around invisibility. And yeah, you run the risk of the Cone of SilenceTM giving away your location, so keep the diameter of the spell small so it's easier to blend into the background clutter.