Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Senko on <05-21-14/0127:14>
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After a great deal if pressure in another thread I've just read storm front and something struck me when I was reading Harlequinn's stats at the end 21 soak dice, 30 odd magic, fought a dragon openly, has any spell he wants available etc, etc and has for decades been running around with nanopaste on his face 24/7. So what if what's been hitting people everywhere is also in his head?
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Would we ever notice the difference?
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In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
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In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
Nah. They originated from him. He's Sybil. :P
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In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
And this is why I decapitated the guy. Hard to Mary Sue when your suspiciously well preserved head is on a pike outside Ghostwalker's City's Council.
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Yeah I can't buy that unless your home game character is ridiculously overpowered.
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Yeah I can't buy that unless your home game character is ridiculously overpowered.
I did what any respectable GM would do: Sic a dragon on him.
Specifically, the big angry one he fucked over who promised to get bloody, bloody revenge on all those who crossed him no matter how lightly they may have done so.
After, of course, using his guilt to rebuild GW's drake forces and running interference while Ghostwalker turned one of those uber shadow spirits into magic-WMDs. Even immortal elves get tired guarding an open planar gate to an insect spirit metaplane.
Harlequin is self-indulgent enough he probably understood the "double-cross" was coming the entire time. Keeping Harly alive post-stormfront seems like a premise thread to me. So I ended the threat.
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And doomed half your world in doing so.
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...you weren't really expecting a happy ending, were you?
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In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
Nanites don't infect him, he infects nanites. So basically, Harlequin is Chuck Norris.
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In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
Nanites don't infect him, he infects nanites. So basically, Harlequin is Chuck Norris.
No, Argent is Chuck Norris of 6W. Harlequin is what would happen if the Chuck 'grew up'. :P ::)
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...you weren't really expecting a happy ending, were you?
Yes.
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...you weren't really expecting a happy ending, were you?
Yes.
That's what bunraku parlours are for. :P
In keeping with the theme of Mary Sue Harlequin we will no doubt discover that Harlequin was infected early on, but not only does he resists the invasion he actually counter-infected them, with those altered nanites now serving as one of the baselines for some of the Manipulator/Hidden strains. :P
So now we face the truly terrifying prospect of MiniHarleys running around...
Nanites don't infect him, he infects nanites. So basically, Harlequin is Chuck Norris.
Sorta like Chuck vs Zombies (http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002805713/1735982719_chuck_norris_zombie_xlarge.jpeg) then.
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That's what bunraku parlours are for. :P
You get what you pay for. ;D
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Removing Harlequin from SR would be like Bat-Man without the Joker or Sherlock Holmes without drug references...where would be the fun then? :'(
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Indeed. Harlequin makes things more interesting. Personally, I don't see why people call him a 'Mary Sue'. That's like saying Damien Knight and Lofwyr are a Mary Sues. Harlequin is a major NPC and plot device.
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I really hate how everyone has started to call every character they don't like, ever, in any medium, a Mary Sue. That's not what a Mary Sue is.
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Removing Harlequin from SR would be like Bat-Man without the Joker or Sherlock Holmes without drug references...where would be the fun then? :'(
I didn't remove him, per say.
Did I mention the part of how suspiciously well preserved his head is?
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My only encounters with Harlequin in fiction are in Shadowrun Returns and Storm Front; both times, he demonstrates very high Sue-ish qualities.
But, then again, people forget that being a Mary Sue is not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people hate Mary Sues because of the bad fiction that uses them, while forgetting that by the same test of what makes a Mary Sue there are a lot of heroes from a variety of fiction that fit the bill. For example, the tale of how King Arthur becomes king is pretty much a Mary Sue story. Yet that doesn't stop it from being a good story.
I am comfortable calling Harlequin a Mary Sue simply because, from what I see, he is one. Yet at the same time, I don't think the setting or some of the events in it would work as well without him. Nor do I think he is a bad character because of it. In fact, he's probably better for it, given how he came across in Shadowrun Returns as being the only character with a true sense of humor and as subtly mocking everything while at the same time being willing to outright admit you can't trust him. Out of all of the people who manipulate your character in that game, he's the most honest about it.
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You need to check and see what a Mary Sue actually is, then. Just because a character is high-powered and does outlandish things does not make them a Mary Sue, especially when they are an NPC. Would you say that Lofwyr is a Mary Sue? Afterall, he's one of the most high-powered characters in the setting, and goes around doing pretty much whatever he pleases, right? Except that's not what a Mary Sue is.
Mary Sue
See Mary-Sue. A female fanfiction character who is so perfect as to be annoying. The male equivlalent is the Marty-Stu. Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.
Harlequin is a long-established, high-level magic NPC who has always been crazy. Now, if I wrote a character who came along, drank Perianwyr under the table, out magicked the entire Seelie Court, and won control of Ares from Damien Knight in a poker game, THAT would be a Mary Sue.
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Mirikon, I'm not the one who needs to check and see. Here's a few other definitions from that same entry:
A sexist term used to enforce the misogynistic ideals that female characters/authors shouldn't be allowed to fantasize or write anything along the lines of wish fulfillment. Its misogynistic qualities are exemplified in many ways, most notably being the fact that it's not a term dominated by the male counterpart despite existing in a patriarchal society, as well as the fact that the male counterpart is largely undecided upon in name and also undefined (see urban dictionary's Gary Stu entry which has no definition but to say "A Male Mary Sue", and the Marty-Stu entry which involves the "Mary Sue" definition to define it).
A female character who is so perfect that she is annoying. The name originated in a very short Star Trek story that mocked the sort of female characters who showed up in fanfiction. It usually refers to original female characters put into fanfiction, but can refer to any character.
A character too perfect for their setting. Most often, this character is talented and attractive, and anyone who doesn't adore them is portrayed as mean, stupid, or evil. It's common for them to be the smartest, even if this requires everyone else to act stupider than they should. Out of place but awesome names are also frequent occurrences. They lead charmed lives, and any conflict or drama they are met with will be either overdone to the point of headache induction, or easily brushed aside.
Every other definition I've checked that was comprehensive pretty much boiled down to those four. Harlequin qualifies as a Mary Sue under the last definition I posted. After all, he showed signs in Storm Front of going toe-to-toe against a great dragon. Lofwyr doesn't count because, to be blunt, even Lofwyr has made some pretty big boneheaded mistakes. So have all of the other Great Dragons, each in their own way. And Lofwyr has suffered quite a bit for his actions in how they affect his company as of late, in addition to his injuries after going up against another Great Dragon.
Harlequin? He fought a Great Dragon, appeared to have a good chance of winning, and walked away mostly unharmed. Lofwyr? In his most recent battle against another Great Dragon, he was lucky to come out alive.
In many ways, Harlequin is too perfect. That's what makes him awesome. That's what makes him worth keeping around, and that's part of what makes him a likable character. Because he is that perfect in a setting where, pretty much, everything else is utter crap and even dragons suffer serious consequences. The fact he's just utterly insane and doesn't work to make things better just means he adds another level to the dystopia.
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But that's the thing that rubs me raw about everyone tossing around Mary Sue (or Marty Stu) willy-nilly -- whose Mary Sue are they? They're long-established characters that have been around for longer than many new players have. They were established by some writer, somewhere, some-when, and then changed, and used again, and changed, and used again, and again, by different writers each time, heck sometimes by different companies each time.
They're not some fanfic insert, any more than Captain America or Superman are (zomg so noble and powerful!).
They're characters some folks don't like, sure, and I have no problem with that. I just dislike the term being thrown around wildly, when all people really should say is "that's a character I don't like." As it is, the term gets used so much it's losing all meaning.
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But that's the thing that rubs me raw about everyone tossing around Mary Sue (or Marty Stu) willy-nilly -- whose Mary Sue are they? They're long-established characters that have been around for longer than many new players have. They were established by some writer, somewhere, some-when, and then changed, and used again, and changed, and used again, and again, by different writers each time, heck sometimes by different companies each time.
They're not some fanfic insert, any more than Captain America or Superman are (zomg so noble and powerful!).
They're characters some folks don't like, sure, and I have no problem with that. I just dislike the term being thrown around wildly, when all people really should say is "that's a character I don't like." As it is, the term gets used so much it's losing all meaning.
I think you hit on the difference between a successful "mary sue" and the ones responsible for the term's ill-repute.
Harlequin, though less than Captain America or superman, has taken on a life of his own. It's easy to leave them as an absurd-power-fantasy, which is why it's so easy to write superman badly or have Harlequin come off as that douchebag GM's "PC" who hangs out with the group and makes look bad. The whole reason "Mary sue" is a pejorative was because the characters took up too much attention and the pay off was for the writer not the audience. I'd also like to point out not all Mary-Sues include self-insertion, but I suspect you already know that.
Personally, I like my Harlequin the way I like my Illuminati: Doing vaguely menacing things offscreen that make my life harder. I wouldn't have either over for tea.
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Tea? No. Drinks? Hell yes. I would just love to hear the things Harlequin rambles about when he gets wasted.
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Tea? No. Drinks? Hell yes. I would just love to hear the things Harlequin rambles about when he gets wasted.
...I stand corrected.
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Getting Harlequin wasted... Now that sounds like an interesting hook for an adventure. Maybe even Ghostwalker getting revenge by hiring runners to get the IE drunk and broadcast what he says over the Matrix.
I could imagine how much fun they would have writing what he rambles!
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I'm sure that IE are rather upset that their magical immunity to toxins prevents them from getting high or drunk. However, I'm sure they at least like the part that saves them from being poisoned.
Though, I imagine they have to make etiquette rolls when at public social events to pretend to be drunk. Just to keep up the illusion that they're not immortal.
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As I recall Harlequinn was pretty much dragon bait after being slammed into the building until frost
Showed up and conviced him he was making a mistake.
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Storm Front made it look like they were both in bad shape after that, though it implies that neither one was wounded enough to prevent them from continuing. Ghostwalker slammed him against the building, moved in for the kill, and ended up bleeding a lot for his trouble. The way they describe Harlequin, it's more like he had the wind knocked out of him and is exhausted, while Ghostwalker is bleeding all over and obviously on his last bit of energy as well. And from the wording by both Frosty herself and others, Harlequin was quite capable of continuing the fight.
Though, he's apparently let something loose worse in Denver than Aztechnology, he's trying to undo it, seemed not to be himself for a bit, used technomancers and others...
Suddenly, I am wondering just how accurate my joke about Harlequin being Sybil actually is. If he's Patient Zero, it might explain why they weren't able to track him down and also might explain everything about what happened in Denver.
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Though, he's apparently let something loose worse in Denver than Aztechnology, he's trying to undo it, seemed not to be himself for a bit, used technomancers and others...
Suddenly, I am wondering just how accurate my joke about Harlequin being Sybil actually is. If he's Patient Zero, it might explain why they weren't able to track him down and also might explain everything about what happened in Denver.
I'd be pretty OK with this.
And, IIRC, the "worse" things were Maelstrom and Oblivion, whose names are about all the detail about them we've got. spooky spooky shadow spirits!
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As a note, Ghostwalker wasn't going full out. If he had been, there would have been large parts of Denver that were scorched with dragonfire, and you would have seen him bring spirits and more to the party. Not saying he went easy on Harlequin, but he was hindered by not wanting to lay waste to his own kingdom. And not only was Harlequin using a massively powerful weapon focus, but he was wearing the armor bequeathed to him by Big D, and you know that wasn't just regular plate armor. So Ghostwalker had some circumstances against him, and Harlequin had things in his favor, which made what would otherwise be a relatively one-sided fight into a slugfest.
As for why Harlequin wasn't himself, well, he's been more or less crazy for a few thousand years, and people do really, really stupid things for love. Aina, who he'd been romantically involved with for centuries, was seemingly killed protecting everyone at the Watergate Bunker from the backlash of Ghostwalker's ritual in DeeCee. So he was going out for vengeance. And when a person who has fought Horrors and can wade through Bug City as though nothing was going on decides to avenge someone, it would take something like getting the crap beat out of him by a great dragon, and both his apprentice and oldest rival standing between him and death to make him snap out of it.
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I wouldn't call Harlequin a Gary Stu. For starters, he has weaknesses, makes mistakes, curses his fate. He's not walking around getting laid with tons of people. He's bloody painted up more than a clown. Hardly that much wish-fulfillment. He's not by-far the best IE, since he had a hard time with his whatever-the-magic-duel-thing-is-called again. And he made a big mess to be able to catch Walky at a bad time, and still lost. He got saved, just like Sirrurg, but he's a dumb fool nonetheless. A Gary Stu would have won and have been convinced at the end to let Walky walk.
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Mirikon, good point.
Michael, the problem with that is that, given what Frosty says in Storm Front in reply to someone else asking why Harlequin didn't press the attack, Harlequin being convinced to let Walky walk is exactly what happened. And given the multiple definitions of Mary Sue/Gary Stu, it doesn't have to be wish fulfillment for him to be one. So the text itself leaves it perfectly open for him to still be a Gary Stu, but under a definition that isn't necessarily a bad one. Which is part of what Critias was addressing with his complaint on it.
A lot of this thread has been discussing the question of why people think Harlequin is a Gary Stu. The way the text was written on his fight with Ghostwalker really does give the impression.
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I tried doing a Mary Sue test for him and hit the low range. Not that impressive. (Note to self, do that test more often with my character concepts for stories.)
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SlowDeck, it only gives that impression because there haven't been many public high-level magic battles in Shadowrun. All the ones before involved Dragon-on-dragon conflicts, such as when Lofwyr and Alamais tangled, and those were more tooth and claw than anything else. Step over into a fantasy setting like, say, the Forgotten Realms, and there's plenty of stuff like that. What you're responding to is the dissonance of a fantasy character in a cyberpunk world, akin to a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. And that is something that all the IEs try to hide, since they are far more squishy than dragons.
And yes, Harlequin does make mistakes. In Clutch of Dragons, Ehran tells him straight up that he's rushing things, trying to do in months what ought to take a campaign of decades or centuries to pull off. Harlequin, however, was driven by grief and vengeance, and ignored him. If Ehran and Frosty hadn't shown up, he would have pressed the attack until Ghostwalker killed him. Their appearance, literally standing between him and an angry dragon, was like throwing cold water on his face. Woke him up and gave him a "Oh god, what have I done?" moment. The reason he was allowed to leave after that was because Ghostwalker had to turn to deal with the two massively powerful shadow spirits that showed up with the Azzies.
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Calling him a high-fantasy character proves my point.
It is not a lack of flaws that makes him too perfect. It is his sheer level of power and capacity to get things done even when he's approaching a fight from an underdog position. Outside of him and the dragons, that kind of power is simply not displayed. And the dragons themselves don't even display it that much.
He is a character who, by pure comparison of power levels, does not belong to this game. But the setting itself benefits from him. So I don't see how removing him will benefit things. And he is a character who is well-written and interesting; every action he takes is, once you get used to his sheer power, believable.
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To be fair, in every setting where there is magic, there are individuals who are head and shoulders above everyone else in the field. Hell, even going to a setting a bit less fantasy than D&D, you still have the likes of Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter, for example. Harlequin and the Immortal Elves fall into that role in Shadowrun, incredibly powerful mages, well beyond the level of those who run the shadows, but not at the level of dragons, or those things that even dragons fear.
And him being well-written, believable (despite scale), and a benefit to the setting is the opposite of a Mary Sue, I believe.
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Harry Potter was Modern High Fantasy. It's basically DnD with a modern setting. Which is actually part of what made the series such of an enjoyable read.
And whether or not a Mary Sue is well-written does not necessarily negate it being a Mary Sue; it depends on which definition you are abiding by (note my example of King Arthur earlier in the thread).
Harlequin's actions and motivations are truly believable once you accept his power level; if you cannot accept it, the fact he stands out so much becomes glaring and he becomes about as believable as Albus Dumbledore showing up in a documentary about Vietnam. The other IEs make it far easier to accept their power through the simple fact they don't run around brandishing it in very obvious ways. It is the fact you have to first accept that, yes, he really is that powerful and really can openly take on a Great Dragon in a one-on-one fight and walk away that makes him almost too perfect for the setting. Especially since a lot of the setting goes out of its way to pretty much say that going up against a Great Dragon without being one yourself is suicide. Adding in the sheer scope of his plan and the fact he pretty much set up a technomancer revolution in the city only pushes him across that line. If you can't accept the premise that he is really capable of that, despite everything else in the setting effectively saying no one should be able to pull it off, then it goes from an awesome story of Lost Love Vengeance to an irritating story of Wank Character Does Denver.
And that's the disconnect with Harlequin. He acts like a DnD character. In this setting, acting like a DnD character is a great way to die young. Yet he did it, still lives, and will probably do it again. And for a lot of people, the difference between that and a character who is simply wish fulfillment is nonexistent. I'm not one of those people, but at the same time I have to admit that even the defense of Harlequin not being a Mary Sue only highlights the major reason he is.
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Frankly I'd have more of a problem believing in his validity if he wasn't that powerful. I'm sorry but in a setting like this where someone has been around for several millenia (literally the whole of our recorded history) I expect them to have that power. Magic aside you can spend a century or two mastering woodworking then sword fighting then strategy and tactics perhap larning from people like Alexander the great directly, then computer skills, then something else. You can literally spend an entire lifetime mastering a skill and then go onto another so you are going to stand head and shoulders above people who've only had that one lifetime to learn everything they want/need to know.
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Harry Potter was Modern High Fantasy. It's basically DnD with a modern setting. Which is actually part of what made the series such of an enjoyable read.
And whether or not a Mary Sue is well-written does not necessarily negate it being a Mary Sue; it depends on which definition you are abiding by (note my example of King Arthur earlier in the thread).
Harlequin's actions and motivations are truly believable once you accept his power level; if you cannot accept it, the fact he stands out so much becomes glaring and he becomes about as believable as Albus Dumbledore showing up in a documentary about Vietnam. The other IEs make it far easier to accept their power through the simple fact they don't run around brandishing it in very obvious ways. It is the fact you have to first accept that, yes, he really is that powerful and really can openly take on a Great Dragon in a one-on-one fight and walk away that makes him almost too perfect for the setting. Especially since a lot of the setting goes out of its way to pretty much say that going up against a Great Dragon without being one yourself is suicide. Adding in the sheer scope of his plan and the fact he pretty much set up a technomancer revolution in the city only pushes him across that line. If you can't accept the premise that he is really capable of that, despite everything else in the setting effectively saying no one should be able to pull it off, then it goes from an awesome story of Lost Love Vengeance to an irritating story of Wank Character Does Denver.
IMO, it's pretty strongly implied that Puck was working on the technomancer revolution anyway. Harlequin just provided a little extra incentive and vision. But I tend to think of Puck turning into an archetypal victim-turned-victimizer.
What I liked about this arc was it took Shadowrun's most notorious boogyman and asked, "What if he wanted to end someone more powerful than himself?"
And, really, he does a good job of hamstringing Ghostwalker by helping out the people who the White Wyrm has sodded off.
Also, I'd say Harlequin fully realized it was a suicide run. “Perish The Universe, So Long As I Have My Revenge” Doesn't exactly sound like he's wasted any time with an exit strategy.
Last, give Harlequin some serious credit: He won the big picture pretty much entirely by doing something none of his friends or enemies would have expected and allying with Aztechnology. Everything else he did was just giving GW an annoying month. Bringing the Azzies back both solidified the damage against GW's infrastructure and gave the other treaty-nations room to buck GW's authority.
Mary Sues' rarely have to sell their soul to their greatest enemy to get what they want.
Note: I don't really have an opinion on if Harley is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu (I prefer ignoring Gary Stu and using mary regardless of gender). He's a character who can easily throw off narrative weight in any story he shows up in.
And that's the disconnect with Harlequin. He acts like a DnD character. In this setting, acting like a DnD character is a great way to die young. Yet he did it, still lives, and will probably do it again. And for a lot of people, the difference between that and a character who is simply wish fulfillment is nonexistent. I'm not one of those people, but at the same time I have to admit that even the defense of Harlequin not being a Mary Sue only highlights the major reason he is.
This, right here, is why I killed Harlequin off when I ran my Denver game last fall. Great show, Ahab. Stab the White Wyrm. But you don't get to walk away. Period.
And, should I ever play in a game where it's appropriate to reference Harlequin/Ghostwalker, I'll have GW kill Harlequin again.
Good show, old chap. Time to shuffle off the immortal coil.
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You ever consider that while Ghostwalker isn't forgetting the slight he's taking the long view and not indulding in some petty self satisfaction that would potentially disrupt a lot of power balances with the humans and more importantly the dragons?
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Yeah, now that the initial moment has passed, I expect GW to take full vengeance on Harlequin, AZT, Puck, and everyone else who defied him. But he isn't going to go on a bloody rampage. Not yet. He will plot, he will plan, and then when he acts, it will be like the end of the Godfather, where Michael systematically wipes out everyone who was against him.
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You ever consider that while Ghostwalker isn't forgetting the slight he's taking the long view and not indulding in some petty self satisfaction that would potentially disrupt a lot of power balances with the humans and more importantly the dragons?
The way I wrote his killing Harlequin had GW playing on H's guilt to replenish many of the resources destroyed. Then pitching him in the garbage once GW had balanced enough scales. And Harlequin not putting up too much fight because of his whole emo thing.
And it sets up a more entertaining Ehran the Scribe Jokering Ghostwalker. Sure to entangle unsuspecting runners in the affairs of dragons for decades. I'd give Ehran better than average odds of winning that fight since he won't blow his load before victory is guaranteed.
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Except that Ehran wouldn't "Joker" Ghostwalker. If he felt strongly enough about avenging his old enemy/rival, he would spend a hundred years or so to plan, and then once the pieces were all in place, he'd strike.
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And when he was done striking, there likely would be little evidence left that he set it up at all.
That said, I don't think Ghostwalker will be marching on vengeance soon either. He cares about the spirits of Denver, and until he neutralizes the threat against them he can't risk chasing Aztlan out or getting vengeance on Harlequin.
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Killing off Harly actively sounds like you're mary-sueing yourself as GM. It sounds more arrogant than a mary sue player or mary sue gmpc.
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Killing off Harly actively sounds like you're mary-sueing yourself as GM. It sounds more arrogant than a mary sue player or mary sue gmpc.
If you want to think of it (or me) that way, sure.
From where I'm sitting, it's just a Great Dragon reminding a few dozen specific people that he keeps his promises.
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Killing one elf won't show how he's keeping promises. Burning Aztlan back out of Denver will show he's keeping promises, and leave a more lasting impression.
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Killing off Harly actively sounds like you're mary-sueing yourself as GM. It sounds more arrogant than a mary sue player or mary sue gmpc.
If you want to think of it (or me) that way, sure.
From where I'm sitting, it's just a Great Dragon reminding a few dozen specific people that he keeps his promises.
Really? Was it really just that? Was this act really necessary, really logical? Or did you do it because you despise Harlequin and wanted to make a gesture to yourself and your players that you're the one in control of the metaplot, official metaplot be damned? The way you continously bring up how you had him offed, it really sounds like you're making yourself the real mary sue here.
Besides, did Ghostwalker really make a promise to kill Harlequin? Because that's NOT how things read to me, he seemed to actually regret the hasted conclusion Harly made. Heck, he might have decided not to kill Harlequin partially as a gesture towards Aina for causing what happened to her, and maybe so she won't make a fuss against him in the future.
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Yeah I can't buy that unless your home game character is ridiculously overpowered.
I did what any respectable GM would do: Sic a dragon on him.
Specifically, the big angry one he fucked over who promised to get bloody, bloody revenge on all those who crossed him no matter how lightly they may have done so.
After, of course, using his guilt to rebuild GW's drake forces and running interference while Ghostwalker turned one of those uber shadow spirits into magic-WMDs. Even immortal elves get tired guarding an open planar gate to an insect spirit metaplane.
Harlequin is self-indulgent enough he probably understood the "double-cross" was coming the entire time. Keeping Harly alive post-stormfront seems like a premise thread to me. So I ended the threat.
I applaud to this solution. After he was quite easily manipulated...at the dawn of the new age, when magical threats are "low-level" in comparsion to what he must have survied in the past...into destructive furry, loosing controll, he should be either eliminated as a threat or dealt with the same way the Shirrug was...locked away and stripped from his power. I prefere the first.
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As I said at that level the death a.d removal of any of the players will have major repurcusions and I imagine ghostwalker isn't going to do anythinf soon. Nit least because doing so would risk reignitinfmg several wars.
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Besides, did Ghostwalker really make a promise to kill Harlequin? Because that's NOT how things read to me, he seemed to actually regret the hasted conclusion Harly made. Heck, he might have decided not to kill Harlequin partially as a gesture towards Aina for causing what happened to her, and maybe so she won't make a fuss against him in the future.
I read it the same way. Ghostwalker's address after his fight with Harlequin reads to me like he's going to do things the slow, painful way. If he wants to make his enemies suffer, then simply killing them is not going to do much. There will be a reckoning between Ghostwalker and Harlequin (and Aztechnology), but I don't think it will be ultraviolent in nature.
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IMO in GW/ Harley/ AZT Harley would possibly go against AZT. After he woke up from his posession, he seemed to realize that he handed over some major mojo secret to Smoking Mirror and would try to fix that. If he wpuld be able to recover quickly. Like I said before, IMO he was possessed/manipulated (Bogota bllodbath infused Compulsion power or something like that used by Maelstrom or Oblivion) and he realizes that at the end of Denver standoff. He may need some time to reconcile with himself
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Harlequin was almost certainly possessed/manipulated, but not by Maelstrom or Oblivion. It was a mad Passion, what the spirits now call the Jester Spirit. Back in ED times, the Passions were basically uber-spirits that some people worshipped not unlike gods, or followed like mentor spirits.
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I know. But the rising influence of those two entities and Harlequins madness...I don`t believe in coincidences. I dont know if they are another parts of Primeira Vaga, possibly manipulating the whole chain of events from the beginning of Tempo, or they just took advantage of the mayhem caused by the war...in fact, not just the War, but also Clutch of dragons seem to happen in this Maelstrom of events, world spinning faster and faster into the Oblivion,,,this seems like pretty good plan
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There's this talk about someone being out of their mind, and then there's CFD. The way Harlequin was acting... is it possible that, in addition to the spirit possessing him, he's got CFD and what we saw in Denver was a manifestation of it?
Some people would ask why a CFD patient would go after a dragon. Well, there is this dragon that is ripping apart Matrix entities...
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Or did you do it because you despise Harlequin and wanted to make a gesture to yourself and your players that you're the one in control of the metaplot, official metaplot be damned?
Um, he's the GM. As far as his game is concerned, he is the one in control of the metaplot, and his metaplot is the official one. That's always been the best part of Shadowrun sourcebooks; the represent the common perception of the world, not the truth of it.
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I know. But the rising influence of those two entities and Harlequins madness...I don`t believe in coincidences. I dont know if they are another parts of Primeira Vaga, possibly manipulating the whole chain of events from the beginning of Tempo, or they just took advantage of the mayhem caused by the war...in fact, not just the War, but also Clutch of dragons seem to happen in this Maelstrom of events, world spinning faster and faster into the Oblivion,,,this seems like pretty good plan
Well, those two were hanging around Bogota long before the war started. Divided city where the two sides hate eachother, and there's no real government to speak of, where everything's basically feral? Prime grounds for a Shadow to gain strength all on their own. Whether they had anything to do with Tempo or not is unclear, but even as basic opportunists, there's plenty in Bogota to give them a power boost and help them grow to the levels they're at.
There's this talk about someone being out of their mind, and then there's CFD. The way Harlequin was acting... is it possible that, in addition to the spirit possessing him, he's got CFD and what we saw in Denver was a manifestation of it?
Some people would ask why a CFD patient would go after a dragon. Well, there is this dragon that is ripping apart Matrix entities...
No, I don't think so. Harlequin has always been a bit crazy. I don't think this is anything more than what one man will do in a drive to get vengeance for the woman he loved. He was full of righteous anger and there wasn't anyone who was going to stop him until he got some sense smacked into him.
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There's this talk about someone being out of their mind, and then there's CFD. The way Harlequin was acting... is it possible that, in addition to the spirit possessing him, he's got CFD and what we saw in Denver was a manifestation of it?
Some people would ask why a CFD patient would go after a dragon. Well, there is this dragon that is ripping apart Matrix entities...
Except Harlequin would probably know that that Dragon is Celedyr (and his pet electronic intelligence Cerberus/Eliohann).
I honestly don't think Harlequin is infected. He's just his crazy old self.
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He could have tried for something a little less literal than how sense was smacked into him, but then he probably wouldn't be Harlequin.
Good point on Celedyr... Hrm. Well, there goes one awesome theory about CFD. Though, this means there's also not multiple copies of Harlequin running around.
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Well, there goes one awesome theory about CFD.
Not gone, just needs some tweaking. Maybe the CFD angle was to get the Nexus out from under the scaly thumb of good ol' Ghosty. And it could be that the purpose of the duel wasn't to eliminate Ghostwalker, but to dispose of a tool once it was no longer of use.
It's a stretch, true.
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He could have tried for something a little less literal than how sense was smacked into him, but then he probably wouldn't be Harlequin.
Good point on Celedyr... Hrm. Well, there goes one awesome theory about CFD. Though, this means there's also not multiple copies of Harlequin running around.
Like world isn`t crazy enought
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He could have tried for something a little less literal than how sense was smacked into him, but then he probably wouldn't be Harlequin.
Good point on Celedyr... Hrm. Well, there goes one awesome theory about CFD. Though, this means there's also not multiple copies of Harlequin running around.
Like world isn`t crazy enought
*cough*Gwynplaine*cough*
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He he. I just had a wonderful/horrible thought. Someone gets around to perfecting viable quick-growth clones (as opposed to wimps), and somehow Harlequin's DNA gets in the batch they're cloning. Now, we know that clones of a mage may or may not be Awakened, but it would be interesting to see if a Harlequin clone could Emerge...
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And after DC, UCAS has Harlequin's DNA. And Ehran's. And Frosty's. Really, everyone who was on the site, except perhaps for Surehand.
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He he. I just had a wonderful/horrible thought. Someone gets around to perfecting viable quick-growth clones (as opposed to wimps), and somehow Harlequin's DNA gets in the batch they're cloning. Now, we know that clones of a mage may or may not be Awakened, but it would be interesting to see if a Harlequin clone could Emerge...
Would it matter, though? Sure, he's got the same genome, but he's missing the what, 6,000 years of experiences? He may Emerge, but I don't think it'd be Harlequin.
On the other hand, properly stage managed, a clone who thinks he's Harlequin could be awfully fun...
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another academical wuestion: dies DNA define personality, or does Experience do that?
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That depends on the scientist you ask, I believe.
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another academical wuestion: dies DNA define personality, or does Experience do that?
DNA contributes; it includes coding for tendencies as towards personality traits. But, ultimately, personality is determined by neurological development, which is primarily a result of experience. It's the major reason why it is no clone would ever be able to be aged up to the same physical age as the original.
Edit: Some would suggest a direct neural feed, but that still wouldn't speed things up. It's not so much that the brain can't handle the capacity for the information or the rapid processing as the brain's physical form cannot handle the resulting heat from all of the energy movement going on within it. In other words, trying to speed it up would only cook the brain inside the skull.
Also, other brain fun fact? There's no net difference between a kid who is exposed to music in the womb and focused on education most of his life and a kid who isn't and mixes education with fun. While true that the music and education focus cause more neurons and neuron connections to form, nearly all of these are lost during the synaptic pruning that happens in the teenage years. It's not entirely known what causes the brain to make its decisions about what neurons and neurological connections it will prune and what it won't (in general, it's usually the more-used synapses that are kept, but it's not that uncommon for the brain to prune some of the more used synapses in favor of lesser-used synapses, and sometimes the more-used synapse kept is not related to conscious activities up to that point). This is another massive obstacle in cloning a replica of someone; likely, the synaptic pruning would result in a loss of experiences and personality traits, resulting in the clone having obvious differences from the original.
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I do use UV modes conditioning in my games to enable characters skip the training time for karma improvements, well every time they apply this method I call for edge+willpower roll with thresshold equal to new skill rating to see if there are any consequences, and I apply such things into my games as much as possible. I agree with facts as presented by Slowdeck. And that is why I consider theory of Harleyclones to be red herring. Not worthy to follow.