Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: prismite on <05-29-14/1558:57>
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Ok, so I'm remaking a character that I played some time ago who is less of a Shadowrunner and more of a legal and licensed Bounty Hunter. Nothing on his is Rated F because he follows the law.
However, I just noticed that his favorite long range weapon, the Onotari Rhino Hunter uses High-Power chambering and is something like 8R. But ... the rounds for said gun (High-Power rounds) are 20F?
Did this ever get errattad or is that how its meant to be?
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According to WAR! p156, adding High-Power Chambering is a 7R modification, while High-Power ammo is 20F and costs 80¥ per 10. So yeah, you're better off using something else unless you have good contacts.
Keep in mind that SR4 has fairly high availability limits on most high-end security and military gear; APDS alone is 16F, APF is 18F, and AT rounds is 22F.
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Remember also that an 'F' rating is meant for people who are 'private citizens'. Anybody could actually be legally in possession of a 'Forbidden' item, presuming they went through all the (microscopic-sized) hoops and paid all the (macroscopic) fees in order to acquire a Valid End-User Certificate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_certificate) for the damn thing. National armed forces? Valid End-User Certificate. Bonded mercenary company? Valid End-User Certificate. And, quite possibly - but you should absolutely have this conversation with your GM - a bonded, licensed bounty hunter, especially one that deals with highly dangerous and difficult-to-kill paranormal animals (like juggernauts!!).
I would, however, expect such hoops and fees required for a bounty hunter's VEUC to require at least a perfectly clean National SIN, licenses for all your gear, and a very fat yearly fee - in the nature of 50,000¥ or more.
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I wouldn't expect the fee to be that high. After all, current fees on automatic rifles, silencer and short barreled rifles were at $200 last time I dealt with them. The paperwork scares a lot of people away, but ownership is relatively cheap and easy once you jump that hurdle.
That said, as a bounty hunter, if you were part of a trust or corporation, the trust or corporation would own all the licenses/tax stamps on the equipment rather than you. It's actually kind of scary how lax the law is on this. You can set up a trust or corporation and get approval on all sorts of NFA items that people generally think of as illegal about 90% easier than registering in your own name.
Of course, the 50k would probably be on scale for a Fake license.
On that note though, if you do have a license of that sort as an individual, you will likely meet a lot more scrutiny. Police generally don't want to accept that the suppressed automatic 16" rifle you're carrying under that coat is legal. They tend to not understand those laws so well.
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Remember also that an 'F' rating is meant for people who are 'private citizens'. Anybody could actually be legally in possession of a 'Forbidden' item, presuming they went through all the (microscopic-sized) hoops and paid all the (macroscopic) fees in order to acquire a Valid End-User Certificate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_certificate) for the damn thing.
You're describing restricted items. Restricted items can be licensed by civilians as you describe. Forbidden items are strictly illegal for any private person - that's clearly spelled out in the relative paragraph. There is no way for anyone to obtain a license for those - the only ones that can use them are the official institutions (who issue them to their personnel - not even those are allowed to privately own those items.)
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And what I've described above is part and parcel of becoming an official institution ... which doesn't automatically mean government institution, you see.
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Wyrm
Are there any game mechanics that covers what you're describing, though?
I get that militaries are supposed to have access to what is Forbidden to the average consumer, but in game terms a Forbidden item is very clearly impossible to get a Fake License for. Wouldn't it have to be a GM call (and house rule) to allow a player to get an actual, real license for something like being a bonded bounty hunter or a paramilitary employee, allowing you to possess Forbidden class items?
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Are there any game mechanics that covers what you're describing, though?
This might or might not be deducted from this bit:
Jurisdiction
The law, of course, varies in different countries all over the world—and with megacorporate extraterritoriality in Shadowrun, sometimes from block to block. Police officers in one jurisdiction may of course turn a blind eye to the possession of certain items that would cost you your life if you were caught with them in another. The legality restrictions in this book use the Seattle, UCAS, setting as a base guideline. Whenever the characters are in another national or corporate jurisdiction, the gamemaster determines exactly what the legalities and punishments are, as appropriate to his campaign.
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That seems like more of a "what is F and what isn't in different countries", though, not a "You can have a Fake License for an F item by paying X, and this has an availability of Y".
So, my question remains; how does a runner (for the purposes of this discussion based in Seattle, UCAS) get a license for an availability F item in the core rules?
I don't believe there are any game mechanics for this, which means it's up to the GM to decide as usual.
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Of course it's up to the GM, and of course there are no game mechanics for it. It's a marginal case at best, and the main book - even Run and Gun - aren't big enough to talk about every single possible marginal case.
It kind of irks me that for every possibility there's someone going, 'are there any game mechanics for it??' Every game mechanic ever published covers maybe 80% of the possibilities at best; the rest, as much as the game mechanics don't cover, whether that's holding off going to the bathroom while you're on a stakeout (go ahead and find a mechanic for that) to getting fully licensed and bonded as a High-Threat-Paranormal bounty hunter, is going to fall into the camp of 'the GM's gotta use a big dose of common sense, with all he knows of both the game world and the real world acting as a guideline.' It reminds me of the guy who wanted game mechanics for buying legal items.
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Woah, woah, woah, settle down. I was just asking if there was or had been; I know you have an almost encyclopedic knowledge of past and present editions, and was curious if there were any game mechanics covering actually being licensed as a professional X.
The way your post was phrased (using terms like "bonded" and "Valid End-User Certificate" to my mind implied game mechanics I hadn't heard of; it wasn't clear to me that you were talking about abstracts. Just checking, is all.
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No, there never have been. You'd basically require a corporate, military, or government sponsor - or functionally establish yourself as a corporation specifically chartered for such a purpose - and there's never been a canonical method to do that. Plenty of non-canon directions; I have a mess of 'em in my own hard-drive somewhere, stacking up with my home-brewed fake SIN modeling that is (alas) well out of date.
However, 'bonded' and 'end-user certificate' isn't a matter of abstracts; they're very real legal terms in use today. Yes, Virginia, you can purchase a pallet-load of plastic explosives IRL - if you pass all the legal hurdles and licensing etc. to be a registered and bonded mining corporation, allowed to purchase and use plastic explosives for the purposes of blowing big holes in the ground. Or, of course, if you can fake that sort of licensing ... but that should, by its very nature, be a step or six above simple 'restricted gear' licensing.
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Cool, that's all I wanted to know.
Thanks!
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Unless they decide to make a splat book for starting a business/corporation we won't see anything covering that level of ownership in SR. Yet, they have to exist. If they didn't, then legal mercenary companies and PMCs would not be able to exist as they do, and setting material tells us that they do exist.
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I'm reasonably certain that you're only allowed to have Forbidden gear with you if you're currently in the process of working for an organization with enough influence to be allowed to use it, and which has authorized you to use it.
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These are all really good (and mostly common sense) responses here and I thank everyone for their participation.
It still feels wrong, however, that somebody is allowed to buy something that REQUIRES another piece to function, but one piece is illegal. I dunno, to me its like buying a car is legal ... but the tires are illegal.
Yes, its an extreme example, but still smacks of foul play.
In a real-world scenario I could understand this rule, as there are bound to be collectors and hobbiest that want to have one of these units in their collection, fully understanding that it will never be fired/used. In game terms, however, it just feels wrong. I think I would feel better if the rifle was illegal too.
However, I could see ZeConster's side of things too. A corp is likely to extend thier blanket of protection in certain regards. If you are hunting an ugly armored critter on their behalf, I could see them sponsoring the use of some less-than-average gear, provided it was YOUR gear.
Of course, the sensible thing to do would be to just select a different rifle. :)
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I agree that High-Power Chambering should be an F rated modification. :D
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Even if you go through the hoops and paid the fees to be legit, you'd have to have a SIN, they'd have your firearm's rifling print on file, you'd be on lots of lists...
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Even if you go through the hoops and paid the fees to be legit, you'd have to have a SIN, they'd have your firearm's rifling print on file, you'd be on lots of lists...
I think in this case rule the ammunition as 20R rather than 20F.
There's something to be said for having all of the permits, only to be screwed over on the ammunition, making it a wall hanger. I have to agree that if there's a legal reason for the purchaser to have it and use, they should be able to thoroughly enjoy using it. They shouldn't be screwed over for item required to use it.
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To be fair, high-power chambering is an item from WAR!. It's designed for campaigns centered on military (private, corporate, or government) campaigns, and military gear is usually forbidden from use by civilians.
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I agree that High-Power Chambering should be an F rated modification. :D
Eh. From a simulationist point of view, I don't see why. All you're doing is running 'hot' loads in a firearm reinforced to handle the extra pressure. You can do that TODAY in most places without extra licencing beyond what was required for the base weapon.
I'd rather just drop the F from the ammo, keeping or even raising the Availability. That and allow ammo variants like High Power/APDS.
-k
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Eh. You can do whatever you want.
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That and allow ammo variants like High Power/APDS.
-k
I had them for some NPCs in my game, High-Power Anti-Tank rounds. With the x4 markup (I'd probably do more if I ever convert HP to SR5) they were firing sniper shots at 100 nuyen per bullet. + Market Dry and another modifier, making it 140.
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What, that's it??? I fire rounds that valuable out of my light pistol.
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Forget availability or restrictions, just make bullets cost 5k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II&feature=kp) each. :p
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By the way, to respond to something earlier in the thread, my friends and I formed a gun trust here in Texas and "our trust" owns multiple suppressors and such. It is actually quite easy.
Also, companies IRL such as MPRI and other PMCs buy HELICOPTERS AND ROCKETS using VEUCs, so yes it can be done. My players in 4ED love the WAR! book because they formed their own PMC and do buy that stuff. There is no system. Just wing it. :)
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Thinking about this some more, what about the large bore hunting revolvers out there? That to me strikes as a perfect example of a High Powered load. Especially considering some the stories I've heard about people only firing them twice before selling them.
I'll be another vote behind extremely expensive ammo, or having the player make hand loads.
Another thing I might have to borrow for my own character, that suits her general objective quite nicely.
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A High Power round usually describes ammo that is the same caliber with a more or different powder that creates more pressure. The chambering has to be reinforced for the extra pressure.
A real life example would be the .357 magnum round. It is the same caliber as a .38 special, but uses a slower burning powder to create more pressure.
Usually, the higher power ammunition will have different length casing to differentiate between it and a standard round of that caliber (again look at the .38 special and .357 magnum). A lot of the times this is just for safety though, so the two types don't get mixed up.
That different case length is what makes automatic weapons unable to use both rounds interchangeably. One of my house rules is that HPC revolvers and break action weapons can use normal and HPC rounds.
Then again, I also think that High Power ammo should just modify standard ammo types instead of being a unique type. After all, if you look at high power rounds in real life, they come in just as many varieties as standard rounds.
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Really should have just called them magnum loads to begin with.
-k
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Some good ideas here.
Lets take the Onotari Rhino Hunter (the rifle in question originally) and apply some of these suggestions to it. I assume that the high damage of the weapon is set to reflect the HPC in the description. Do you think, then, that the weapon could potentially fire normal rounds, but -2 damage?
Or would you take a simpler route and just say that if I own the license(s) to make it legal for me to carry this weapon I could potentially obtain a license to carry the ammunition for it?
Seems like 2 viable options, and we have enough heads here to posit a reasonable decision ... so whatever the community decides will become a house-rule at our table.
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Some good ideas here.
Lets take the Onotari Rhino Hunter (the rifle in question originally) and apply some of these suggestions to it. I assume that the high damage of the weapon is set to reflect the HPC in the description. Do you think, then, that the weapon could potentially fire normal rounds, but -2 damage?
Or would you take a simpler route and just say that if I own the license(s) to make it legal for me to carry this weapon I could potentially obtain a license to carry the ammunition for it?
Seems like 2 viable options, and we have enough heads here to posit a reasonable decision ... so whatever the community decides will become a house-rule at our table.
I'd go for the path that if you have the licence for the rifle, you have a licence to purchase ammunition too. Apart from the collector's licence down here, most licences assume that you will be firing it and so need to buy ammunition for it.