Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Poindexter on <05-29-14/1839:28>
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There are smartphone apps today that can pretty much translate most languages into most other languages pretty quickly.
Can commlinks do that, too?
It seems like they out to be able to.
And if they do, what are the use of linguisofts?
Especially if we're talking about an implanted commlink and DNI, what makes linguisofts useful?
and if commlinks can't do that, is there a good, in game reason i can use to explain why not to my players?
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Can commlinks do that, too?
Game mechanics wise? No.
It seems like they out to be able to.
I agree; in SR4, all it took was a commlink with a sim module.
And if they do, what are the use of linguisofts?
Linguasofts are (and were, in SR4) the programs that did the translation. In SR4, these programs ran on a commlink with a sim module; in SR5, they require a skilljack.
Especially if we're talking about an implanted commlink and DNI, what makes linguisofts useful?
In SR4, Linguasofts were easily accessible means for characters to overcome language barriers. In SR5, they require a minimum investment of 20k and 0.1 Essence for a Rating 1 Skilljack, plus at least 1k per Linguasoft.
and if commlinks can't do that, is there a good, in game reason i can use to explain why not to my players?
Is there a good, in-game reason? You'll have to decide that for yourself.
Keep in mind that while a smartphone app may be able to translate speech to text (or even speech to speech), we're still FAR away from Babelfish-like automatic translators; nuances of most languages make programming a machine to understand subtle differences incredibly difficult; a linguasoft essentially provides your brain with inherent understanding of a language, enabling you to both understand and make yourself understood as if you had learned the language from birth. A smartphone app would be the equivalent of having someone translating for you, but worse.
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ok, i think i get it.
the commlink can tell me official correct grammar and whatnot, but will fuck up a lot when it comes to slang or even different accents. It's mainly used for text translation and whatnot, but i couldnt carry on a conversation with someone in person effectively with it.
the linguisoft actually lets me SPEAK the language, and all that goes along with it.
Am i right so far?
Sidequestion: Lets say on different sides of the same nation, they speak the same language, but with a different regional accent on either end. Say i buy a linguisoft that was programmed by the east side of that nation. When i speak that language, using the linguisoft, do i have that eastern accent?
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Sidequestion: Lets say on different sides of the same nation, they speak the same language, but with a different regional accent on either end. Say i buy a linguisoft that was programmed by the east side of that nation. When i speak that language, using the linguisoft, do i have that eastern accent?
Most likely, I remember one book talking about still learning languages first hand as the speech patterns from using a chip often gave away they were using a chipped languisoft.
Sort of like how when you are learning Spanish there are tons of different books you can learn from and they can vary quite a bit from what might be spoken in your local region.
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Right on so far, and yes, probably. Considering that there are Linguasofts for VERY specific languages (Aztlaner-Spanish being one), I wouldn't be surprised if there are linguasofts that incorporate specific dialects as well.
Chipped speech is a new thing in SR5; in SR4 the linguasoft was described as enabling a person to speak the language fluently (assuming a high enough rating, of course).
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But even before that there must have been some tells from using a chip / linquisoft, as mentioned by Matador back in Fields of Fire
Learn to speak the local language from a native. If you learn it from a chip or rely on a linguasoft, the natives will get the message that you don't care enough to learn the language properly. If you speak the local language unassisted by technology, you send the message that you are willing to spend the necessary time to learn about the local culture. You are willing to spend the time to learn how to speak to them. That's a powerful message.
Learn how the locals speak. Do they speak loudly? Softly? Using direct eye contact? Emulate the locals rather than mimicking them, and don't attempt to do it perfectly. You probably can't, and it's better to acknowledge the fact that you are an outsider who respects their culture than to embarrass yourself and them by performing badly. If you mess up, you appear to mock their traditions.
And that can be a whole another level, just parroting the words isn't always enough.
Some situations may require you to know the proper depth of a bow or tone of voice to use.
Just because you can talk to the Yak Boss, doesn't mean you can't cause an issue of Face by how you address him.
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Correct, Sendaz. That's where Etiquette comes in. Knowing HOW to speak the language is half of the equation; knowing WHAT to say and WHEN is the other part, to my mind.
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TOTALLY agree on the values of actually LEARNING the language, but im workin up a character who used to be a bodyguard for a high profile pop singer. travelled all over the world, but never stayed anywhere long. Had to be able to interact with local security, but didn't give a shit about their culture.
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My group ignores Linguisofts entirely for standard languages, we just use the device rating of the commlink as the effective language skill that the device can translate to.
While this devalues language skills and be extension skilljacks, we feel that it is more in spirit with the technology and language skills are usually hand waved by the GM anyway. That and I think people would rather spend their skill points and nuyen on stuff that matters.
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To quote the 4th edition rulebook:
Globalization and the Matrix have also made the world a smaller place, so that borders no longer limit languages. Migrating communities have spread various cultures (both traditional and new) across the planet. The proliferation of linguasofts and translation programs makes it even easier to bridge the communication gap.
EDIT
Aha, found it.
CarnivoreGold (Computer)
This program translates languages and argots that users may have no other way of translating, including modes of communication that may have been developed solely for communication between a limited group of people. The program’s rating plus the user’s Computer skill are then used in Language Tests to understand what was said.
To me, CarnivoreGold perfectly represents the difference between a translation program (CarnivoreGold), which lets you understand what's being said, and linguasofts, which allow you to speak the language as if you knew it yourself.
JimmyCrisis
Good looking houserule right there, I've been considering the same given the above quote. Going a step back (to where most people can't afford spending 20k on even a Rating 1 Skilljack) just doesn't mesh with my view of the setting.
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The only question I would have is how is the commlink to know which conversation to translate or does it just translate everything around it, lighting them up in different colours and AR bubbles over the speaker?
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That's what the Select Sound Filter audio enhancement is for, Sendaz.
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That's what the Select Sound Filter audio enhancement is for, Sendaz.
Doh, of course... just set for whoever you want to chat with or a certain language to focus on.... :-[
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I've seen mention of translation programs mentioned, and I think it is like a (probably a bit better) google translate program rather than something that would let you speak the language. Even if it did it perfectly, it's not streaming the pronunciation and pacing of the language into your mind. Have someone who's a native speaker to a language you don't know type out a full, grammatically correct sentence for you (romanized, so you can at least try to pronounce it) and see how difficult it is to actually say it all perfectly. Any program doing that (in a way that wouldn't just be a linguasoft) would also probably have some amount of delay from the person saying it and you seeing (or hearing) the translation, and would probably be even more obvious than using a skillsoft.
That said, JimmyCrisis has a point that language is often a very insignificant thing so homeruling it to be less of a problem won't change the game much.
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That said, JimmyCrisis has a point that language is often a very insignificant thing so homeruling it to be less of a problem won't change the game much.
In a game where the introduction of a language (Or'zet) sets off a whole set of complications and developments in the world, I disagree that language is an insignificant thing. Language - and language barriers - in the Shadowrun world are perhaps the greatest yet most subtle controlling factor in the game world. Proper speaking of Japanese is used as a judgement/controlling factor by Shiawase, Renraku, and MCT - not as many 'Japanacorps' as there used to be, granted, but three out of ten is still disproportionate in favor of Japan. Aztlan and Aztechnology use Aztlaner Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish as a controlling language; speaking the latter is actually illegal within the nation's borders.
Even in the 5e rules, the extent of your mastery of a language is the extent of your interaction - you can only add as many dice from your Social skill to a test as you have in the language you're interacting with. This makes language mastery a critical resource indeed ...
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I don't mean language is insignificant in the world of Shadowrun. Not in the least. I mean a lot of games are played without language barriers ever being an issue, and more often than not, it's planned around which languages a team has access to. If the encounters a language they can't speak, it's often a plot point and not just a random occurrence.
I'm talking 100% gameplay, not at all related to anything in the setting at all.
Your example of the Atzlanter Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish relates to my point; if that's gonna come up, it's something the GM has planned for and will use as a plot point.
Mechanically, all languages mainly act as a cap to your social skills and for rolling to see if you understand something in a non-native language (which is a very tedious thing I almost never call for unless someone's talking about stuff you might not understand even if it was in your native language). Changing that will not impact the game much. That's all I meant, sheesh. >.> Read into my comment's implications about socioeconomic principles or it's deeper religions meanings next time.
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There are smartphone apps today that can pretty much translate most languages into most other languages pretty quickly.
Can commlinks do that, too?
First off, Aetherpedia exists in Shadowrun. Translation programs are not at all out of the question, and you can probably run any sort of text or audio file you can get your hands on through a free translator with the right Computer action.
However:
And if they do, what are the use of linguisofts?
Especially if we're talking about an implanted commlink and DNI, what makes linguisofts useful?
and if commlinks can't do that, is there a good, in game reason i can use to explain why not to my players?
I feel like your'e oversimplifying languages and translations way too much if you're asking questions like this. There are LOADS of difference between translating the general meaning from something, and trying to translate on the fly, with the correct formality, tense and idioms. Because what a linguasoft does is it reads what you want to say, how you want to say it, and then MAKES you say it with the right nuance, emphasis and intonation.
An online translator on the other hand, takes the most common meaning and just tries to put it together. For example, I'll take the opening line of Don Miguel de Cervantes' greatest work El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha and feed it through google translator:
En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no hace mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor.
In a village of La Mancha, whose name I do not remember, not long ago lived a nobleman of the lance and ancient shield, a lean hack and a greyhound ago.
…. Not exactly inspiring. It gets most of the subject matter but seems to miss the point. Let's take a look at what a PROFESSIONAL translator reads it as:
In a village of La Mancha, the name of which I have no desire to call to mind, there lived not long since one of those gentlemen that keep a lance in the lance-rack, an old buckler, a lean hack, and a greyhound for coursing.
And just for fun let's feed that through a translator again.
En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no tengo ganas de llamar a la mente, vivía no hace mucho tiempo uno de esos señores que mantienen una lanza en astillero-rack, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor.
Surprisingly, much better than I thought it would be going that direction, but given the overall fame of the quote I suppose I can't fault them for having the right script.
So that shows us that given today's current technology in online translators, we can get… fairly close on a famous line, but neither translation is without errors. Then there's how to say it. Spanish is relatively easy, as a romance language it's got a lot of similarities to English. But if you can't roll your 'r's, or don't realized the "ll" is supposed to be a "y" sound and not an "L" sound, you may be in trouble. At the very least you'll flub the word.
And that's not even taking into account languages like Mandarin which have an entire set of intonation that is different. Linguasofts are robust programs designed to, as best as they can, get around this and let you speak and translate on the fly. So if your players want to use a Matrix Translation, I'd let them… but it won't be fast enough to kick back and forth during a normal conversation, for one. And is more likely than not going to make them sound like an idiot and definitely not a native speaker.
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Not to mention the fact that chipped linguistics tend to be more picky, more 'formal' - 'usted', as compared to 'tu', if you care to reference the Spanish. Which is what Picador (I think it was?) is referring to by strongly advising you to learn the local language from a local - so that it shows you care enough to come to grips with the language at least a certain amount.
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Which is what Picador (I think it was?) is referring to by strongly advising you to learn the local language from a local - so that it shows you care enough to come to grips with the language at least a certain amount.
This was mentioned on the first page, 5th reply, with Matador from Field of Fire talking about the importance of learning local languages. :P
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This was mentioned on the first page, 5th reply, with Matador from Field of Fire talking about the importance of learning local languages. :P
Repetition is the mother of learning =P
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Matrix translation would be exactly as awkward as speaking through an interpreter. Less so if you use DNI and send constructed audio files via neural link, but still slower than natural speech. Consider that, with advanced algorithms, tone and proper pronunciation can be accounted for, and the rest is up to your etiquette skill.
So, there are situations where you'd want to use a linguisoft, those being where you -should- be able to speak a language but don't. It's a good reason for a disguise expert or intrusion specialist to take linguisofts. Again, skilljacks see great for giving yourself the flexibility needed to accomplish the mission.
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My group ignores Linguisofts entirely for standard languages, we just use the device rating of the commlink as the effective language skill that the device can translate to.
While this devalues language skills and be extension skilljacks, we feel that it is more in spirit with the technology and language skills are usually hand waved by the GM anyway. That and I think people would rather spend their skill points and nuyen on stuff that matters.
I think im gonna use this, but limit it to only if you've got a DNI.
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Hey Guys! I am not sure if it was mentioned or not, Comlincs are capable of douing it RAW. In table 'using languages' there is a modyfier for using "AR enchancent"
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Yeah, it's not exactly the same as a Linguasoft but it's some form of help when trying to understand what people are saying. It wouldn't help you with your Social Skill limit though.
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Would it be safe to equate it to a Google Translate function that can pick up the dialogue and translate it mostly, but some grammatical uses and especially colloquialisms will make it come out kind of wonky?
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Probably. Or that smartphone app that does that.